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On February 05 2011 21:20 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 20:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 19:43 deafhobbit wrote:On February 05 2011 18:52 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 18:46 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:36 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 16:18 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:08 theramstoss wrote:
I think the best players make around 300k (flash etc), especially counting all endorsements and individual leagues (I dont think it's at a million). But that still doesnt compare to sc2 right now, imagine if a bonjwa emerged, he could potentially win 10 out of the 12 tourneys as they dont overlap with each other, which would amount to like a million. Flash is rumoured to make 300k salary with performance bonuses. Individual leagues and endorsements probably get him much more. Also, GSL lowered the prize money of their "regular" tournaments to 50m won and they don't even have 12 GSLs a year anymore. Can you link me to where it says they will have less than 12 GSL's a year? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136 wow.. so that's pretty much the same as sc1 now, except minus the team salaries. And minus real team competition (GSTL is nothing compared to PL). And minus teams being sponsored by actually large companies. And minus salaries for every professional player. And minus Korean fan support (compare GSL4 finals crowd to OSL finals crowd - here). And minus better opportunities for lower level pro's to play (Dream league, random PL appearances, OSL/MSL qualifiers, etc). And minus several dozen professional games being played each week. And minus open, freely available replays of every pro game. And minus a decade long history of fantastic tournaments, rivalries, goofs, human interest stories, and everything else you'd expect from an actually successful sport. And minus being live broadcast on two different TV channels. And minus being the most successful esport in history. And minus Bunkie. You've got a long way to go. Uh saying it's "real team" competition is kinda meaningless. It's still team vs team, one is just more prominent. Every professional player does not have a salary I don't believe. It's just free rent. Maybe some food? Lower levels of play have much more opportunity on the international scene than BW does as well, significantly more, no comparison. OSL/MSL qualifiers is irrelevant... GSL has qualifiers too... and when GSL is running there are often just as many if not more games than BW. You are wrong about having open, freely available replays as well, there aren't. The VODs of proleague and stuff are illegal I believe, (jon747 etc), which is why they were taken down from youtube. It's not like you can't find GSL games easily illegally either, I watched all 3 of the first seasons free. Being the "most successful esport in history" isn't a valid argument. They do have Bunkie though. Team Competition - One is a year long competition, broadcast on multiple television networks, that draws tens of thousands of people to the finals. The other is less than a month long. They're not in the same league. Salaries - To my knowledge, at least all A teamers are paid, and you are the first person I've ever heard suggest this wasn't the case. Evidence is obviously needed, but given the size of the sponsors involved in BW i'd be very suppressed if all players didn't at least earn something. Lower Level Play - Note my terminology - "lower level pro's." Pro = professional = someone who does this for a living. International sc2 competitions don't count as professional play because the vast majority of people in them aren't truly professional players. Also, why are qualifiers irrelevant? They require a pro gaming license, are KESPA official tournaments, and can result in one gaining entrance to the tournament proper. GSL having more games - Bullshit, maybe you should try looking things up before making claims like this. I just took a few minutes and added up the number of scheduled games (which is a better long term metric for comparing them than number played) for all GSL events in January, and compared it to OSL/MSL/WL. Here are the results. GSL - 34 events, 246 games OSL/MSL/WL - 48 events, 316 games. I may very well have missed a few, but i doubt they would make up a 70 game deficit. Turns out, Proleague every week adds up. VOD's - Jon747 got taken down for WCG replays, not Korean scene ones. Re-uploading Kespa replays is 100% legal. Most Successful Esport - Why not? Name me one other esport that has even come close to having the popular appeal of BW in Korea. You can't, because there hasn't been one. You can talk all you want about GSL viewship numbers, but the fact of the matter is that most those people are people like us - nerds who are really into gaming and who like to watch people play well. BW is Korea is different, large portions of it's fanbase are not gamers and follow it like they would follow any other sport. And yes, it does have Bunkie.
I understand the differentiation you're trying to make, all I was trying to say was. Despite being heavily intoxicated last night when I made the posts, I think a lot still have validity.
1. Ok, I'll cede on the team competition, I think in my head I was thinking, "well, you're still seeing team vs team" from the top players.
2. B-teamers qualify as "professional players," and it's what they do as a living. It's not A-team only. For example, IdrA was considered a professional BW player, despite being on the B-team. Lots of B-teamers (and they have a C-team as well I believe!) don't get salaries, just free housing.
3. International SC2 community now doesn't count? That's a stupid distinction. SC2 has been the main source of income for a lot of players, with many having $20,000 plus amount. There is NO question that if you are a lower level player, you have a much greater chance of earning an income on the SC2 international scene than you would ANYWHERE on the BW scene. There is infinitely more opportunity for lower level play in SC2, that can't even be contested. Most of the players making large sums of money are also most likely not having significant other jobs so they can focus on earning money. People like White-ra who are older can be considered an exception, but nonetheless the point stands. For people in their 20's, it can be a sustainable source of income.
4. Concerning number of games played, sounds like a biased metric considering at most GSL typically would have had only 1 less game played at most each time, while MSL/OSL/PL all could have been shorter by 2+ games. Just saying. Either way, you were arguing exposure, and the argument is quite weak when the amount of games being broadcasted are still in the hundreds for a single month.
5. Oopsies!
6. I said nothing about even trying to say GSL or SC2 was more popular in Korea. I just said it wasn't a relevant measure of the structures of the events.
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On February 05 2011 16:19 GTR wrote:
unlike sc2, bw players get appearance fees (players actually went on strike in 2003 to get these).
where can i read about that? thank you.
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United States22883 Posts
Please do not make this a BW vs. SC2 shitfest. Shannn put it perfectly:
So you see there are good and bad sides on both sides but currently BW in Korea is just better for sponsors than SC2 in Korea for now while outside SC2 is better for sponsors than BW does.
You do not need to discuss the merits of one over the other. If anyone has the OSL/MSL info the OP is looking for, that'd be great.
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of course the top sc pros get way much more money per year than the top sc2 pros do.. but if you look at the big picture, so many b teamers have left sc1 for sc2, so obviously the salaries for bw pros right now is very top heavy...
looking at the Milkis thread, i wouldnt be surprised if many A teamers in BW teams are earning less than 50K a year. and if you compare the amount of practice they have to do compared to SC2 pros, i dont think its worth it.
the top sc2 players earn a comparative amount (2K a month for Code S players plus other tournaments they may be involved along with team sponsorship salary? i know idrA gets this, dont know about the Korean players). Jinro for example has earned almost 20K in just 2 months..
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On February 05 2011 18:46 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 16:36 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 16:18 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:08 theramstoss wrote:
I think the best players make around 300k (flash etc), especially counting all endorsements and individual leagues (I dont think it's at a million). But that still doesnt compare to sc2 right now, imagine if a bonjwa emerged, he could potentially win 10 out of the 12 tourneys as they dont overlap with each other, which would amount to like a million. Flash is rumoured to make 300k salary with performance bonuses. Individual leagues and endorsements probably get him much more. Also, GSL lowered the prize money of their "regular" tournaments to 50m won and they don't even have 12 GSLs a year anymore. Can you link me to where it says they will have less than 12 GSL's a year? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136
There will also be 6 Team League tournaments, 1 Super Tournament for about 100k USD.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179652
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On February 05 2011 19:03 jacen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 18:52 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 18:46 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:36 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 16:18 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:08 theramstoss wrote:
I think the best players make around 300k (flash etc), especially counting all endorsements and individual leagues (I dont think it's at a million). But that still doesnt compare to sc2 right now, imagine if a bonjwa emerged, he could potentially win 10 out of the 12 tourneys as they dont overlap with each other, which would amount to like a million. Flash is rumoured to make 300k salary with performance bonuses. Individual leagues and endorsements probably get him much more. Also, GSL lowered the prize money of their "regular" tournaments to 50m won and they don't even have 12 GSLs a year anymore. Can you link me to where it says they will have less than 12 GSL's a year? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136 wow.. so that's pretty much the same as sc1 now, except minus the team salaries. quite impressing to me considering they started sc2 stuff about 6 months ago.
Why is it impressive, its lacking proper proleage and they downgraded their original plans completely. Despite being a new game, being able to build on an existing proscene and having 50 million simply for marketing they somehow fucked it up.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51632 Posts
On February 06 2011 14:34 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 19:03 jacen wrote:On February 05 2011 18:52 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 18:46 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:36 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 16:18 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:08 theramstoss wrote:
I think the best players make around 300k (flash etc), especially counting all endorsements and individual leagues (I dont think it's at a million). But that still doesnt compare to sc2 right now, imagine if a bonjwa emerged, he could potentially win 10 out of the 12 tourneys as they dont overlap with each other, which would amount to like a million. Flash is rumoured to make 300k salary with performance bonuses. Individual leagues and endorsements probably get him much more. Also, GSL lowered the prize money of their "regular" tournaments to 50m won and they don't even have 12 GSLs a year anymore. Can you link me to where it says they will have less than 12 GSL's a year? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136 wow.. so that's pretty much the same as sc1 now, except minus the team salaries. quite impressing to me considering they started sc2 stuff about 6 months ago. Why is it impressive, its lacking proleague and they downgraded their original plans completely. Despite being a new game, being able to build on an existing proscene and having 50 million simply for marketing they somehow fucked it up.
making it any bigger than what it is would run the risk of a greater loss....They are trying to shove the right amount down their throat lol.
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On February 06 2011 12:16 nufcrulz wrote:
of course the top sc pros get way much more money per year than the top sc2 pros do.. but if you look at the big picture, so many b teamers have left sc1 for sc2, so obviously the salaries for bw pros right now is very top heavy...
looking at the Milkis thread, i wouldnt be surprised if many A teamers in BW teams are earning less than 50K a year. and if you compare the amount of practice they have to do compared to SC2 pros, i dont think its worth it.
the top sc2 players earn a comparative amount (2K a month for Code S players plus other tournaments they may be involved along with team sponsorship salary? i know idrA gets this, dont know about the Korean players). Jinro for example has earned almost 20K in just 2 months..
Jinro earned because he was successful though? If he wasn't, how much would he have earned? I can give the same example with BW. Modesty just reached the RO4 of the MSL despite being mostly bad, i'm sure he earnt extra money because of this. But he also has his STX salary which he's been paid for however long he's been in the A-team.
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who care the prize of both league? It's the prime honor, even in the ro36 or ro32.
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On February 06 2011 12:16 nufcrulz wrote:
the top sc2 players earn a comparative amount (2K a month for Code S players plus other tournaments they may be involved along with team sponsorship salary? i know idrA gets this, dont know about the Korean players). Jinro for example has earned almost 20K in just 2 months..
Is that an actual salary where they are paid monthly on top of their GSL prize money or is that just the prize money for competing in Code S? And source if so.
Also, http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ looks even more top heavy if you ask me but I guess ymmv.
On February 06 2011 12:48 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 18:46 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:36 theramstoss wrote:On February 05 2011 16:18 aru wrote:On February 05 2011 16:08 theramstoss wrote:
I think the best players make around 300k (flash etc), especially counting all endorsements and individual leagues (I dont think it's at a million). But that still doesnt compare to sc2 right now, imagine if a bonjwa emerged, he could potentially win 10 out of the 12 tourneys as they dont overlap with each other, which would amount to like a million. Flash is rumoured to make 300k salary with performance bonuses. Individual leagues and endorsements probably get him much more. Also, GSL lowered the prize money of their "regular" tournaments to 50m won and they don't even have 12 GSLs a year anymore. Can you link me to where it says they will have less than 12 GSL's a year? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136 There will also be 6 Team League tournaments, 1 Super Tournament for about 100k USD. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179652
It says that in the thread I linked?
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On February 06 2011 15:28 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 12:16 nufcrulz wrote:
the top sc2 players earn a comparative amount (2K a month for Code S players plus other tournaments they may be involved along with team sponsorship salary? i know idrA gets this, dont know about the Korean players). Jinro for example has earned almost 20K in just 2 months.. Is that an actual salary where they are paid monthly on top of their GSL prize money or is that just the prize money for competing in Code S? And source if so.
code s players get that money automatically by being in the round of 32 (starting round of code s)..
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Sony_Ericsson_Global_StarCraft_II_League_January#Prize_Pool
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On February 06 2011 20:11 nufcrulz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 15:28 aru wrote:On February 06 2011 12:16 nufcrulz wrote:
the top sc2 players earn a comparative amount (2K a month for Code S players plus other tournaments they may be involved along with team sponsorship salary? i know idrA gets this, dont know about the Korean players). Jinro for example has earned almost 20K in just 2 months.. Is that an actual salary where they are paid monthly on top of their GSL prize money or is that just the prize money for competing in Code S? And source if so. code s players get that money automatically by being in the round of 32 (starting round of code s).. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Sony_Ericsson_Global_StarCraft_II_League_January#Prize_Pool
Yes, that is called prize money.
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On February 06 2011 00:02 shannn wrote:
I can't believe people are discussing whether or not GSL is better/worse than OSL/MSL/PL.
Ratings of BW is just better than GSL there's no denying it. However GSL has the potential to become greater than BW simply put because of the scene outside Korea. BW outside Korea is dead as much as BW fans hate this. SC2 hasn't gotten off yet in Korea but outside Korea you see the prizepools and tournaments rising up and this shows the potential that sc2 could bring.
Furthermore GSL is planning to extend their tournaments to the foreign scene according to John. This means it'll take a (few) year(s) but that's still faster than what BW did in Korea. Afaik last year in Shanghai was the first time ever that a Starleague finals (think it was OSL) held outside Korea.
GSL has already made plans to do this in less than a year of release.
So in summary:
- BW has better ratings than GSL
- BW has an established scene compared to GSL
- BW scene is pretty much dead outside Korea
- SC2 hasn't gotten off yet in Korea BUT outside Korea it's still blooming and growing
- SC2 foreign viewers on GSL is higher than in foreign viewers on BW
- SC2 is less than a year old while BW is already 10+ years old.
- BW pro's get on average paid more than SC2 pro's
- BW has less prize money than GSL
- BW has 2 tv channels broadcasting BW while GSL not (1 for recap I think?).
So you see there are good and bad sides on both sides but currently BW in Korea is just better for sponsors than SC2 in Korea for now while outside SC2 is better for sponsors than BW does.
I realise this was before anibox started broadcasting code s, but code s is now broadcast on Anibox and i think the quality of code s went up siginificantly after it started broadcasting on anibox now that GSL is on a korean channel i think the popularity of the GSL will start to grow more and more i wouldnt be suprised if there was a bigger turn out for the finals this season but i guess we will have to wait and see.
OGSMC JULY ZERG FINALS! if thats possible i forgot the brackets.
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Canada8036 Posts
Why did you bump a month old thread titled OSL/MSL Prize Money to talk about the quality of the GSL?
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On March 10 2011 08:59 Spazer wrote:
Why did you bump a month old thread titled OSL/MSL Prize Money to talk about the quality of the GSL?
That's just how the cheesemaster rolls. All hail the cheesemaster.
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On March 10 2011 09:01 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 08:59 Spazer wrote:
Why did you bump a month old thread titled OSL/MSL Prize Money to talk about the quality of the GSL? That's just how the cheesemaster rolls. All hail the cheesemaster.
Dude, he was so excited he didn't even have time for punctuation.
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EPT
