It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
seems more like an "e-business" in the eyes of blizzard. If BW was ever taken as an e-sport, blizzard would've never done these efforts to shut down BW permanently.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
As has been mentioned previously, both in this thread and in many others, the problem comes with how Blizzard let the BW scene go along untouched for several years before even contacting kespa. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no real opinion on where the rights lie, but as far as I understand it, there is a legitimate case for kespa.
On October 24 2010 14:14 nalgene wrote: Anyone notice a lot of 2010 accounts in this thread?
Yes. On both sides. A lot of the more consistent pro-Kespa apologists on this and other threads are also 2010's or 2009's like me. Hard to tell how long people have been lurking or have been involved in Starcraft in other capacities.
i dont think all the "YEA GO KESPA, FUCK YOU BLIZZARD UR KILLING OUR CHILDHOOD I HOPE YOU DIE AND MAGGOTS EAT YOUR EYEBALLZ" people really understand what is going on. Not that I am way up high with the all seeing eye, but im willing to reserve judgment until later when I know more to see how it plays out.
the fact that shit had to go so far down the drain is sad. Either win is still bad for competitive scbw. Kespa wins, blizzard looks like an asshole. Blizzard wins, there will be a vacuum in audience and srs ramifications for pros in korea.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
As has been mentioned previously, both in this thread and in many others, the problem comes with how Blizzard let the BW scene go along untouched for several years before even contacting kespa. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no real opinion on where the rights lie, but as far as I understand it, there is a legitimate case for kespa.
That would be relevant if blizzard was suing because KeSPA created or advanced BW as an esport, which they are not. They are suing because KeSPA and also MBC by siding with KeSPA are not respecting their rights, all Blizzard has been saying is hey I created this game I own it and I and i am the ones who is to be selling anything to do with the game unless I have given someone permission. Its the same thing as when u watch a sport and you get the little disclaimer msg saying you may not rebroadcast etc etc without the express written permission of the company, whether that be the nba or nfl whatever.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
So basically this whole ordeal is saying that people don't have the legal right to broadcast BW games, and that only Blizzard does (I didn't follow the BW pro scene)?
On October 24 2010 11:05 jayGroove wrote: Another interview comes from FOMOS. it said that Blizzard "We still have a interest in SC1","We will not stop supporting BW scene" .
Reminds me of when a company takes over say an american manufacturer and promises to keep making that stuff in their USA factory.
A short while later the factories are closed and relocated to China or Mexico.
There is more money in SC2 thus Blizzard will wind down BW as fast as they can , as simple as that.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
Although I'm not an expert in the details of this case, it is to my knowledge that what you call "whatever the owner (blizzard) deems it to be" was too demanding. I do not know what Blizzard released publicly but KeSPA also publicly released the demands from Blizzard and it claimed that Blizzard wanted full rights to organizing tournaments, teams, etc. in addition to licensing fees.
I agree with you, that since SC is Blizzard's product, they most likely, have the right to decide the terms that go along with the various ways in which the product is used. I'll go as far as to even say that legally, they may have full rights to organizing sc tournaments, teams, etc. But it is people like you, a stickler to law, who fail to realize that laws are imperfect and can be manipulated in such a way that "justice" isn't truly served.
Law is not everything. I'm not saying illegal behavior should be endorsed. But think about the history of Brood War. Who and what were all the factors that allowed SC:BW to mature into what it is today. Based on Blizzard's past handling of tournaments (just in case you're unfamiliar, they failed terribly), think about what would happen if Blizzard had the rights and were to organize tournaments and teams today.
Maybe based on current law, Blizzard has full rights (again, I'm no legal expert so this is pure speculation). What I am almost certain of is that there is probably no law the takes into account and respects what KeSPA has done for the game of SC:BW for the past decade. Sure, they have their own faults. But it was thanks to them that an esports culture was even created. The GSL of today probably wouldn't exist without the cultural institution of esports that KeSPA helped cultivate. The esports culture war a significant reason for the swelling popularity of the SC franchise. But do you see Blizzard even remotely respecting what KeSPA has done for them and for their game?
Indeed, following your logic, Blizzard would have no legal obligation to appreciate and respect KeSPA's accomplishments with their game. But I think anyone with a just conscience can see that Blizzard isn't simply being motivated by "legality" here, unlike what they are constantly stating publicly. Everyone hates hypocrites. And then there are people on these forums wondering why Blizzard receives such hate.
There is no argument here. Blizzard owns the IP copyright and they are allowed to control it's broadcasting. Blizzard not enforcing it for a couple years doesn't mean they still don't own it. Imagine how pissed disney would get if some company went around selling micky mouse stuff for 10 years and then claimed that they owned it since they built a community around it for 10 years. 10 years is a short time and time doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this stuff. Yes kespa helped sc1 become popular, but they did it without the blessing of blizzard and when blizzard came to give them their blessing for a price, they refused and even cancled gretech stuff by forcing the players to not participate.
Although I'm not an expert in the details of this case, it is to my knowledge that what you call "whatever the owner (blizzard) deems it to be" was too demanding. I do not know what Blizzard released publicly but KeSPA also publicly released the demands from Blizzard and it claimed that Blizzard wanted full rights to organizing tournaments, teams, etc. in addition to licensing fees.
I agree with you, that since SC is Blizzard's product, they most likely, have the right to decide the terms that go along with the various ways in which the product is used. I'll go as far as to even say that legally, they may have full rights to organizing sc tournaments, teams, etc. But it is people like you, a stickler to law, who fail to realize that laws are imperfect and can be manipulated in such a way that "justice" isn't truly served.
Law is not everything. I'm not saying illegal behavior should be endorsed. But think about the history of Brood War. Who and what were all the factors that allowed SC:BW to mature into what it is today. Based on Blizzard's past handling of tournaments (just in case you're unfamiliar, they failed terribly), think about what would happen if Blizzard had the rights and were to organize tournaments and teams today.
Maybe based on current law, Blizzard has full rights (again, I'm no legal expert so this is pure speculation). What I am almost certain of is that there is probably no law the takes into account and respects what KeSPA has done for the game of SC:BW for the past decade. Sure, they have their own faults. But it was thanks to them that an esports culture was even created. The GSL of today probably wouldn't exist without the cultural institution of esports that KeSPA helped cultivate. The esports culture war a significant reason for the swelling popularity of the SC franchise. But do you see Blizzard even remotely respecting what KeSPA has done for them and for their game?
Indeed, following your logic, Blizzard would have no legal obligation to appreciate and respect KeSPA's accomplishments with their game. But I think anyone with a just conscience can see that Blizzard isn't simply being motivated by "legality" here, unlike what they are constantly stating publicly. Everyone hates hypocrites. And then there are people on these forums wondering why Blizzard receives such hate.
I agree with some parts of what yoy are saying, I can't bold stuff on my phone though. What you have to remember is that blizzard does respect what KeSPA has done with their game that's why they went to KeSPA first trying to make them be the holders of the ip rights in korea aka being legally allowed to broadcast etc, as long as they pay a certain fee, whether at the time it was a fee for the year or per tournament I don't know, what I do know is KeSPA told them to stick it up their ass. So yes blizzard knows that without bw's success as a game and a esport the past 10 years there would be no GSL today. The issue is again based on the information we all have access to, blizzard says this is the tournament fee for broadcasting(I can't actually remember the proper number, phone makes it difficult to look it up) and you have to agree that I we(blizzard) own the game and everything to do with it, and you(KeSPA and anyone in the future) need my permission to profit off it.
On October 24 2010 15:59 darmousseh wrote: There is no argument here. Blizzard owns the IP copyright and they are allowed to control it's broadcasting. Blizzard not enforcing it for a couple years doesn't mean they still don't own it. Imagine how pissed disney would get if some company went around selling micky mouse stuff for 10 years and then claimed that they owned it since they built a community around it for 10 years. 10 years is a short time and time doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this stuff. Yes kespa helped sc1 become popular, but they did it without the blessing of blizzard and when blizzard came to give them their blessing for a price, they refused and even cancled gretech stuff by forcing the players to not participate.
I think its important to note that the negotiations are not between Blizzard and Kespa, but between Gretech and Kespa. Having said that, it is actually impossible to be unfair in a negotiation you are not partaking in.
"The negotiation terms that Gretech offered to both of the broadcasting stations are fair, so we want to see the negotiation through as smooth as possible, and be on a good relations. Also, Blizzard has no plan to get any monetary gains through the IP rights negotiation process. Didn't you see in Gretech's announcement, that all monetary gains will be donated to charities? Once again, we want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 to exist side-by-side."
"Few years ago, there was a situation when KeSPA demanded broadcasting fee from broadcasting stations, and I remember the fee to be significantly higher than the rumors or current negotiation terms offered. The important fact here is, that KeSPA has no right to demand any money, but they did so, at much higher price. The absolutely true fact is that, few years ago, KeSPA demanded a lot of money, and we think if someone wants to use somebody else's IP, they should be paying a fair price to the IP owner.
As for the sub-licensing, we gave Gretech full rights, so we are not involved with that negotiation. Gretech is a for-profit company, so it seems only right that the negotiation should end with fair pricing for both Gretech and the broadcasting stations.
Once again, Blizzard did not decide on the pricing in the negotiation, and that Gretech will set a fair price for the negotiation. Ultimately, we want to protect our IP rights.
I want to also make a mention about the rumors going around regarding the relationship between Gretech and Blizzard. Gretech is Blizzard's partner. This is based on trust, and Blizzard still trusts and supports Gretech. So, we want to confirm again, clearly, that Blizzard and Gretech are partners who trust and respect each other. Likewise, we want to see new partnerships created with other groups in Korea. To do so, we need to have respect going both ways, but beforehand, we need acknowledgment of the IP rights. Doing broadcasting without getting the license is an act of disrespect." - Paul Sams
/endthread?
Anyway, lets be real for a moment. Kespa didn't do anything for Blizzard. All their work was for their self-interest, and it just happened to benefit Blizzard. These negotiations have been going on for quite a while (years back, not just now). Is it because Blizzard wanted to kill SC2? Maybe, who knows. All we know is that there are companies that have been profiting from someone else's product. Its like me buying a TV and selling it to someone else, except I stole the TV. Not the best analogy, but you get the point. If we're all not respecting IP rights, then Kespa shouldn't ask for a fee from the broadcasting stations since they have the right to play whatever they want. Kespa did ask for fees, implying that they are selling a product (being SC1). But Blizzard can make this same argument Kespa did, and ask a fee for them to use their product.
Anyway, regardless of who is right and who is wrong. I sincerely hope that it gets settled. My best case scenario is Blizzard wins their rightful IP rights, and pro-leagues remain intact. Probably not going to happen but we can hope.
EPT
