This idea of Brood War dying has been discussed way too much. Plenty of people still play brood war, and there's no incentive to switch over to sc2 unless you were a top player that was sponsored by a team and competed in tournaments like WCG and TSL that no longer exist.
Nothing has changed for all of us, the regular players. If you're upset that more people are playing sc2 just don't join them and keep playing brood war. Its that simple. Everything revolves around economics, if people don't play or care about sc2 then nothing has changed in the community since before it was released. And i don't mean your casual whatever players, they'll play anything thats new and won't be playing sc2 a year or two from now so there's no reason to worry about them.
You all as players don't realize the huge amount power you have in all this. Nobody is forcing you to play either game so play the one you love. The tournaments come from the sponsors who only give money for games they think people care about. So show them you care! it all revolves around you, the player. And it catches on with your friends, you stop playing sc2 and once in a while your friends come and play with you, and maybe it catches on who knows. Or maybe they start playing both.
And the whole mental aspect and all these threads about brood war dying don't help anything. It isn't dying, the people who left are already gone and i don't think they're still leaving en masse. Why would they have waited until september? So just focus on doing what was so easy for everyone before sc2 was released: Watch vods, watch streams, play ICCup, be active in the community and act like nothing happened because the only real change for the casual player has been a mental one.
I'm just worried about the lawsuit between kespa and gretech that could shut the sc1 scene down. I can never play sc2, and support bw forever, but it won't have much effect on the lawsuit
On September 27 2010 11:35 l10f wrote: I completely agree with you except that I'm more worried about the proscene than the casual BW players;;
Fair enough, its true we as foreigners don't have much impact on the korean scene in terms of being a fan base. But BW is so huge in korea I'm confident it will survive in spite of legal trouble.
But think of it like this: If many koreans stay with brood war a couple years down the world will gom/gretech really be more successful at drawing viewers for SC2 than proleague? If not, then blizzard would be going against their own financial interests by only allowing sc2 companies exclusive rights. (they could reverse that decision down the road if they wanted to couldn't they?) So basically we'll be ok if enough koreans think like you and I
But as far as the foreigner pro scene goes if the community is still behind the game, there could be plenty more tournaments. Sure its kind of a vicious circle since most of the best players (except G5 <3, and i think nyoken too?) have gone to sc2 so the competition level wouldn't be quite as high. But that would change over time as good players would realize they still have something to play for. I mean there are still ssmb melee tournaments in spite of brawl aren't there?
On September 27 2010 11:39 Crunchums wrote: Except for Iccup now being ridiculously hard ;_;/
Eh personally i really don't see this, from my experience this season everything seems similar enough. 500 points harder max, probably less.
I say the lack of innovation and competition would kill the brood war scene. There are very few innovators left in pro-gaming scene and most just play standard - which is boring. There are only couple leaders, like Fantasy and Zero, and the rest are all imitators. The new generation of players are simply encouraged to follow the footsteps of the old without being encouraged to create new. Players are too concerned with winning and too afraid of losing to try anything new or be concerned with the desires of the fans.
Like Jaedong and Nada said, the skill gap between progamers are actually pretty close, so they do not dare to do anything creative/risky in fear of losses. The fans aren't helping either. They expect their champions to win against xxx or it's matchfixing rumor mill. If their champion does something gimmicky and loses, negative pressure would be exerted that cause the affected player to lose motivation in innovation. It's a vicious cycle.
For example, Fantasy. He is pretty much the ONLY player remaining in the scene who tries new stuff every other match. Look at all the hate he is getting from TL, for both victory and defeat.
Oh, and of course, it's basically Flash v.s. Jaedong fest right now. Without variation, it simply isn't entertaining.
I am pretty damn sure that the current e-sport scene is not gaining viewership, but rather steadily losing it. If you look at the current trend, most of those who attend a SC live-event are all teens or early 20s. For GSL, it's pretty much all young guys (not even girls). If you look back at the old vods, the age of Boxer and Nada, their fanbase is composed of fans of various generations and ages.
So yeah, I think it's dying.
What e-sport NEEDS is a leader, someone who truly shines, outspoken, charismatic, able to unite all e-sport fans and attract new fans across the generations by reaching out to the mainstream like Boxer once did. We need somebody with Flash's mentality, Stork's personality, Fantasy's creativity, and Bisu's face.
On September 27 2010 11:25 funnybananaman wrote: Nothing has changed for all of us, the regular players.
Except for Iccup now being ridiculously hard ;_;/
lol yeah your "average" D level player has about 250 APM. (140 eAPM) according to bwrepinfo
Iccup isn't really fun for me anymore. The skill gap isn't justified. Least on SC2 if you get raped you get thrown into bronze/silver league, but on Iccup it's rare for me to find REAL D to D+ level players so I'm stuck playing against wannabe SC amateur B team players.
I'd play SC2 100% if it wasn't for the fact that I'm saving money for a real PC. My current laptop has integrated graphics which equals instant fail and my processors are pretty old.
I'm not too worried about BW dying off or the proscene dying off. Only eStrO was disbanded and they were kinda headed that way anyways. This sort of stuff always happens, but the scene changes and evolves through these processes. Also since Korean league already said "screw the lawsuit, we're going ahead with next year's Starleagues anyways", unless a significant final decision is made, I wouldn't worry about it going away just *poof*.
On September 27 2010 12:47 aimaimaim wrote: Just wait for october guys .. all of your doubts, questions and boggles will be cleared, answered and then some ..
On September 27 2010 12:47 aimaimaim wrote: Just wait for october guys .. all of your doubts, questions and boggles will be cleared, answered and then some ..
Why? What happens in October? :o
uhmmm .. Start of a new season??
lol for some reason I thought he was referring to GSL2 like, wiping us out or something... bad thoughts T_T
On September 27 2010 12:44 Silentness wrote: lol yeah your "average" D level player has about 250 APM. (140 eAPM) according to bwrepinfo
Iccup isn't really fun for me anymore. The skill gap isn't justified. Least on SC2 if you get raped you get thrown into bronze/silver league, but on Iccup it's rare for me to find REAL D to D+ level players so I'm stuck playing against wannabe SC amateur B team players.
I'd play SC2 100% if it wasn't for the fact that I'm saving money for a real PC. My current laptop has integrated graphics which equals instant fail and my processors are pretty old.
lol yeah your "average" D level player has about 250 APM. (140 eAPM) according to bwrepinfo
Iccup isn't really fun for me anymore. The skill gap isn't justified. Least on SC2 if you get raped you get thrown into bronze/silver league, but on Iccup it's rare for me to find REAL D to D+ level players so I'm stuck playing against wannabe SC amateur B team players.
I'd play SC2 100% if it wasn't for the fact that I'm saving money for a real PC. My current laptop has integrated graphics which equals instant fail and my processors are pretty old.
See there you go you guys are getting the hang of it! whining about smurfs on iccup used to be so popular before sc2 but it looks like even now people are still doing it! Way to keep the spirit of the ladder alive!
In all seriousness lol, iccup really isn't that much harder than before. D players do not have 250 apm. I'm only like mid D+ Terran and this season i got to D+ at like 11-3 record same as every season. And Im doing decently (the same as ever) laddering with my high D protoss.
You saying that you can't find any real D/D+ people to ladder against and therefore have to play only korean B players says to me:
A) that you have only played a few games (like less than 6-8) or have gotten really really unlucky and ran in to a disproportionate amount of good people.
B) that you are most likely below D/D+ level but aren't willing to admit that to yourself so you rationalize your losing by saying that iccup has gotten way harder and ur just getting smurfed all the time when the reality is you are just bad. sorry to burst your bubble
One day when I have kids, SC3 will be out, but I'll make sure to show them the true original and how raw it was back then (by then bots will probably be playing for you!) ^_________^
On September 27 2010 13:59 Amnesia wrote: I'll be playing BW forever.
One day when I have kids, SC3 will be out, but I'll make sure to show them the true original and how raw it was back then (by then bots will probably be playing for you!) ^_________^
Honestly speaking I'm gonna be the one who makes SC3.
I honestly don't care about people worrying because there's still gonna be proleauge,MSL and OSL.Them worrying/raging/leaving TL means that we lose the weak minded fools.Plus less people on streams means less lag.
I don't think it's as serious as some are putting it.
Estro being in a bad situation is practically overdue, a lot of old players that accomplished little left the scene (during the offseason, no less). Effort has his own reasons for leaving that are, in all honesty, very good ones. As long as the leagues start with the new season, BW won't die.
The biggest things are the retiring coaches, because of how many left in a short span. I don't have that much proscene knowledge from years back, but I'm pretty sure that while coaches change, that was a rather major shift.
SC2 is probably going to take over because as a game it's much less stale than BW and has a newer and larger fanbase.
You guys can hold onto BW but honestly the game is going to slowly fade into oblivion. Just like WC2 it's sometimes necessary to accept that the game you played for 12 years is done.
The real problem isnt the players or coaches leaving, theres plenty of that. You guys are looking at it from the wrong angle. The REAL thing to look at is revenue, how the business is going for MBC and OGN, league ticket sales. Consumer preference is ultimately what determines how successful any business venture is.
On September 27 2010 11:25 funnybananaman wrote: Nothing has changed for all of us, the regular players.
Except for Iccup now being ridiculously hard ;_;/
lol yeah your "average" D level player has about 250 APM. (140 eAPM) according to bwrepinfo
Iccup isn't really fun for me anymore. The skill gap isn't justified. Least on SC2 if you get raped you get thrown into bronze/silver league, but on Iccup it's rare for me to find REAL D to D+ level players so I'm stuck playing against wannabe SC amateur B team players.
I'd play SC2 100% if it wasn't for the fact that I'm saving money for a real PC. My current laptop has integrated graphics which equals instant fail and my processors are pretty old.
Honestly, you can always see a way to improve your play. I get owned by D+/C- and even D sometimes, but even if they severely outrank you there's probably a way to improve your play as long as you have a good mentality.
BW likely is dying, but many people wrongly assume that the death is here and now. It doesn't have to be and it probably won't be.
BW is dying because strategically the game is too thoroughly mapped out to invoke the same level of enjoyment that it did years ago, hence the gradual decline in popularity. We will likely never see the same level of popularity that we once did.
But who has left the progaming scene? Mostly older gamers who have been finding it difficult to compete due to changes in how the game is played and overall improvements in mechanics (guys like NaDa and July used to be considered blazing fast, but in today's gaming scene there are B-teamers who are notably faster), and also guys who couldn't make it -- guys like MVP who realized that they would never make a Starleague final.
I've seen a stream of names of retirements, but really, the only major upset in all of this was the loss of Effort. And I do realize that eStro is likely to disappear and that Woonjin was gutted, but let's face it: this isn't the first time eStro has been on the brink of getting disbanded and what Woonjin lost was it's string of snipers and back-ups, not the core line-up (yes, Kwanro left to SKT1, but Kwanro hasn't been performing very well for Woonjin).
The only thing that really worries me is the KeSPA/Gretech issue. But barring complications from that, I'd expect SC to continue having televised events for a few more years. Even if SC2 is capable of replacing SC, it will take a while before it develops to the point where it can fill daddy's shoes.
In order for it not to die eventually, it has to keep getting fresh new players. Die hard fans are nice, but a game lives forever, if new generations keep picking it. As of now it seems the newer generations are more likely to go with SC2, which means BW will gradually decline. Of course, it's still in its peak; right now it's many classes above the development stage of SC2, the fanbase, the proscene. There's no comparison yet, BW > all, but the trends don't seem in BW's favor for the future anymore. TL members tend to be good at analysis, and think ahead of time, so they almost treat BW as if it's already dead, which of course is still far from true.
What really annoys me is that BW's engine is just too different - it has its own specific cool features which are inevitably lost in SC2 - so I don't accept the idea that one of these games can "replace" the other. No way, their similarity is on very superficial level, but really are two very different games. It would be like saying that RTS replaces chess.
I feel pretty confident that the Korean BW scene will survive even if KeSPA loses their court case (and honestly I don't think they will). The players at the top of BW aren't going to switch over to SC2 and I feel pretty confident that some good news will come soon enough.
Just imagine though, if Gretech/Blizz lose their court case how much BW will continue to grow in South Korea and possibly beyond.
On September 27 2010 16:04 Mortality wrote: BW likely is dying, but many people wrongly assume that the death is here and now. It doesn't have to be and it probably won't be.
BW is dying because strategically the game is too thoroughly mapped out to invoke the same level of enjoyment that it did years ago, hence the gradual decline in popularity. We will likely never see the same level of popularity that we once did.
But who has left the progaming scene? Mostly older gamers who have been finding it difficult to compete due to changes in how the game is played and overall improvements in mechanics (guys like NaDa and July used to be considered blazing fast, but in today's gaming scene there are B-teamers who are notably faster), and also guys who couldn't make it -- guys like MVP who realized that they would never make a Starleague final.
I've seen a stream of names of retirements, but really, the only major upset in all of this was the loss of Effort. And I do realize that eStro is likely to disappear and that Woonjin was gutted, but let's face it: this isn't the first time eStro has been on the brink of getting disbanded and what Woonjin lost was it's string of snipers and back-ups, not the core line-up (yes, Kwanro left to SKT1, but Kwanro hasn't been performing very well for Woonjin).
The only thing that really worries me is the KeSPA/Gretech issue. But barring complications from that, I'd expect SC to continue having televised events for a few more years. Even if SC2 is capable of replacing SC, it will take a while before it develops to the point where it can fill daddy's shoes.
Your name is too fitting
On September 27 2010 12:12 omgbbq2 wrote: happens everywhere. bw had a good run, but now its time for sc2. lets hope sc2 can live up
Oh wait, it didn't live up to broodwar.
I still feel like this is just the Warcraft III thing except a blown out of proportion because of the title is Starcraft 2 and not Warcraft 4. Remember they had the interview with Boxer, about how he was considering switching to Warcraft III and was practicing Nightelf or something?
The only thing that people should be worrying about is the possible death of PL due to Activision Blizzard/Gretech. A few players leaving means nothing in the long run of BW. A coach retiring is a bit more worrying but its not something to lose sleep over.
Although to be honest, I really don't see Gretech winning in a Korean court so I'm not that worried. The only people who are making these "death of BW" threads are just the random sc2 noobs lol.
On September 27 2010 12:37 endy wrote: I don't care, I wanna watch the proleague :| Iccup is great, but watching proleague and starleagues is so much better.
When a colleague at office asks me if I watched the NBA match or soccer match last night, I love to say : "hell no I was watching the Proleague !"
YEah!!! same with me, I've got many friends who tend to ask me about football matches blabla, as if I should really watch much of this stuff, but I watch SC, since I discovered Proleague it consumed all that I liked in sport, so now I stopped watching anything on TV at all, cause for me its much more entertaining to watch, to discuss, and to be with TL community, thank you guys!!! SC universe forever!
On September 27 2010 16:42 Xenocide_Knight wrote: I still feel like this is just the Warcraft III thing except a blown out of proportion because of the title is Starcraft 2 and not Warcraft 4. Remember they had the interview with Boxer, about how he was considering switching to Warcraft III and was practicing Nightelf or something?
I believe in Broodwar
Starcraft 2 may end up a bit like warcraft III but to me it seems like a lot more people are playing SC2 than were playing warcraft III, and even when warcraft III got popular it was only dota. Games are just much more fun when all your friends are playing them. BW is easily a superior game to starcraft 2 but I barely play BW anymore (actually that's wrong, I don't play at all at the moment. With BW I am either playing heaps or not playing at all) because I do find it less enjoyable vsing random koreans over and over, though following the pro scene never gets boring.
I like to think of it as with my girlfriend.. we both decided to end our relationship. Even though it was great in the first 1-2 years we just felt it made no sense to stay together so we ended it. It hurts and it was one of the coolest times of my life with her but sometimes u gotta move on even though it was the greatest..
Its the same with SC/BW and SC 2 for me ;D
Im just happy I was still young when SC/BW came out because right now Im not even half as hyped for SC 2 due to age and other things u want to do in life ;D
I wish Brood War still had tournaments. If so I would only play BW... But playing in tournaments is fun, even if I don't win, so therefor I play mostly SC2. But man, if BW had tournaments like Zotac and ESL, I wouldn't even touch SC2.
On September 27 2010 12:14 dukethegold wrote: I say the lack of innovation and competition would kill the brood war scene. There are very few innovators left in pro-gaming scene and most just play standard - which is boring. There are only couple leaders, like Fantasy and Zero, and the rest are all imitators. The new generation of players are simply encouraged to follow the footsteps of the old without being encouraged to create new. Players are too concerned with winning and too afraid of losing to try anything new or be concerned with the desires of the fans.
Like Jaedong and Nada said, the skill gap between progamers are actually pretty close, so they do not dare to do anything creative/risky in fear of losses. The fans aren't helping either. They expect their champions to win against xxx or it's matchfixing rumor mill. If their champion does something gimmicky and loses, negative pressure would be exerted that cause the affected player to lose motivation in innovation. It's a vicious cycle.
For example, Fantasy. He is pretty much the ONLY player remaining in the scene who tries new stuff every other match. Look at all the hate he is getting from TL, for both victory and defeat.
Oh, and of course, it's basically Flash v.s. Jaedong fest right now. Without variation, it simply isn't entertaining.
I am pretty damn sure that the current e-sport scene is not gaining viewership, but rather steadily losing it. If you look at the current trend, most of those who attend a SC live-event are all teens or early 20s. For GSL, it's pretty much all young guys (not even girls). If you look back at the old vods, the age of Boxer and Nada, their fanbase is composed of fans of various generations and ages.
So yeah, I think it's dying.
What e-sport NEEDS is a leader, someone who truly shines, outspoken, charismatic, able to unite all e-sport fans and attract new fans across the generations by reaching out to the mainstream like Boxer once did. We need somebody with Flash's mentality, Stork's personality, Fantasy's creativity, and Bisu's face.
I think we see as much innovation as much as we can realistically see. Besides the visibly innovative strategies that we often see from Fantasy (and also from Flash!), there are also lots of smaller tweaks and refinements that aren't as obvious.
No game is deep enough so that a new strategy can be developed almost every game and be better than the existing strategies. I hope you realize the work involved in developing and refining a brand new strategy and how random proleague games/prelims are not worth it.
In the later rounds of starleagues it's quite common to see innovation/heavily strategic play. I would argue this usually makes the series a lot less fun to watch.
On September 27 2010 12:14 dukethegold wrote: I say the lack of innovation and competition would kill the brood war scene. There are very few innovators left in pro-gaming scene and most just play standard - which is boring. There are only couple leaders, like Fantasy and Zero, and the rest are all imitators. The new generation of players are simply encouraged to follow the footsteps of the old without being encouraged to create new. Players are too concerned with winning and too afraid of losing to try anything new or be concerned with the desires of the fans.
Like Jaedong and Nada said, the skill gap between progamers are actually pretty close, so they do not dare to do anything creative/risky in fear of losses. The fans aren't helping either. They expect their champions to win against xxx or it's matchfixing rumor mill. If their champion does something gimmicky and loses, negative pressure would be exerted that cause the affected player to lose motivation in innovation. It's a vicious cycle.
For example, Fantasy. He is pretty much the ONLY player remaining in the scene who tries new stuff every other match. Look at all the hate he is getting from TL, for both victory and defeat.
Oh, and of course, it's basically Flash v.s. Jaedong fest right now. Without variation, it simply isn't entertaining.
I am pretty damn sure that the current e-sport scene is not gaining viewership, but rather steadily losing it. If you look at the current trend, most of those who attend a SC live-event are all teens or early 20s. For GSL, it's pretty much all young guys (not even girls). If you look back at the old vods, the age of Boxer and Nada, their fanbase is composed of fans of various generations and ages.
So yeah, I think it's dying.
What e-sport NEEDS is a leader, someone who truly shines, outspoken, charismatic, able to unite all e-sport fans and attract new fans across the generations by reaching out to the mainstream like Boxer once did. We need somebody with Flash's mentality, Stork's personality, Fantasy's creativity, and Bisu's face.
I think we see as much innovation as much as we can realistically see. Besides the visibly innovative strategies that we often see from Fantasy (and also from Flash!), there are also lots of smaller tweaks and refinements that aren't as obvious.
No game is deep enough so that a new strategy can be developed almost every game and be better than the existing strategies. I hope you realize the work involved in developing and refining a brand new strategy and how random proleague games/prelims are not worth it.
In the later rounds of starleagues it's quite common to see innovation/heavily strategic play. I would argue this usually makes the series a lot less fun to watch.
Starcraft is a decade old game. It has been analyzed and overanalyzed to a point of stagnation. Hence, innovation is difficult and discouraged in regular gameplay. The tweaks and small changes in attack timings etc do not matter to the average spectator. If all the average fanbase see is repetition, then obviously they will move on to something else.
On September 27 2010 16:04 Mortality wrote: BW likely is dying, but many people wrongly assume that the death is here and now. It doesn't have to be and it probably won't be.
BW is dying because strategically the game is too thoroughly mapped out to invoke the same level of enjoyment that it did years ago, hence the gradual decline in popularity. We will likely never see the same level of popularity that we once did.
But who has left the progaming scene? Mostly older gamers who have been finding it difficult to compete due to changes in how the game is played and overall improvements in mechanics (guys like NaDa and July used to be considered blazing fast, but in today's gaming scene there are B-teamers who are notably faster), and also guys who couldn't make it -- guys like MVP who realized that they would never make a Starleague final.
I've seen a stream of names of retirements, but really, the only major upset in all of this was the loss of Effort. And I do realize that eStro is likely to disappear and that Woonjin was gutted, but let's face it: this isn't the first time eStro has been on the brink of getting disbanded and what Woonjin lost was it's string of snipers and back-ups, not the core line-up (yes, Kwanro left to SKT1, but Kwanro hasn't been performing very well for Woonjin).
The only thing that really worries me is the KeSPA/Gretech issue. But barring complications from that, I'd expect SC to continue having televised events for a few more years. Even if SC2 is capable of replacing SC, it will take a while before it develops to the point where it can fill daddy's shoes.
I honestly wish I could quote this at people on a regular basis, as it's pretty much my views on the situation to the very T.
i get a super positive mood from reading this thread
personnally - i haven`t palyed BW in Ages and during the last years i almost only played WC3 and now switched to SCII. But yesterday i was talking to a friend and we both missed some of the old broodwar units. Long story short - we both downloaded broodwar via battle.net and started palying it and it was super FUN! Units mess up and ran whereever they wanted to :D and i loved it. Reaver shooting scarabs into nomans-land - loved it! Lurkers owning hundreds of rines - loved it.
i had much more fun than playing SCII ladder, since I felt more free and didn`t care about stats at all. So, i will end my post with a quote of what we all have read and typed countless times.
In all honesty, without most of us living in korea and being part of the korean general public I think this is really very hard to speculate. I do play some games with quite a few koreans, so I suppose I will try to ask them what their opinion is, assuming they even follow proleague.
Personally I feel the same way as the person who mentioned warcraft 3. SC:BW and WC3 both existed and were both cool. I hope for the same thing with sc2 as well. Obviously if I had to choose one over the other, I would choose broodwar. I hope both can help each other and for esports to get even bigger.
SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
On September 28 2010 05:27 CurLy[] wrote: SC2 is a pretty good game guys :D
Who here said it isn't? Please, just stick to the SC2 forum...
And all these people whining about BW being "mapped out" or that there's no more innovation, needs to get a reality check. First of all, there's plenty of innovation, as proven by Ver in above post. And second, what about other sports like football, basketball etc. Do you see groundbreaking innovation every year? Keep in mind guys, BW is still YOUNG when you look at it like this. People enjoy watching their respective games being brought to perfection, something that's impossible and yet we all wanna reach it. And of course, every once in a while, someone will come to invent or even revolutionize the way the game is played, but you can't expect this to happen in EVERY game...
BW is still VERY far from being "mapped out", even on old maps.
When someone says BW is going to die, I like to check their last few posts. They're almost always either "BW IS GOING TO DIE!" posts or in the SC2 forum.
SC2 is a pretty good game guys :D
While it might be a good game, it can in no way live up to the legacy of BW it's trying to replace.
On September 27 2010 12:14 dukethegold wrote: I say the lack of innovation and competition would kill the brood war scene. There are very few innovators left in pro-gaming scene and most just play standard - which is boring. There are only couple leaders, like Fantasy and Zero, and the rest are all imitators. The new generation of players are simply encouraged to follow the footsteps of the old without being encouraged to create new. Players are too concerned with winning and too afraid of losing to try anything new or be concerned with the desires of the fans.
Like Jaedong and Nada said, the skill gap between progamers are actually pretty close, so they do not dare to do anything creative/risky in fear of losses. The fans aren't helping either. They expect their champions to win against xxx or it's matchfixing rumor mill. If their champion does something gimmicky and loses, negative pressure would be exerted that cause the affected player to lose motivation in innovation. It's a vicious cycle.
For example, Fantasy. He is pretty much the ONLY player remaining in the scene who tries new stuff every other match. Look at all the hate he is getting from TL, for both victory and defeat.
Oh, and of course, it's basically Flash v.s. Jaedong fest right now. Without variation, it simply isn't entertaining.
I am pretty damn sure that the current e-sport scene is not gaining viewership, but rather steadily losing it. If you look at the current trend, most of those who attend a SC live-event are all teens or early 20s. For GSL, it's pretty much all young guys (not even girls). If you look back at the old vods, the age of Boxer and Nada, their fanbase is composed of fans of various generations and ages.
So yeah, I think it's dying.
What e-sport NEEDS is a leader, someone who truly shines, outspoken, charismatic, able to unite all e-sport fans and attract new fans across the generations by reaching out to the mainstream like Boxer once did. We need somebody with Flash's mentality, Stork's personality, Fantasy's creativity, and Bisu's face.
LOL
while I of course enjoy creative play, I never found a real problem with standard paly and dont really understand the complaints about it being boring, anyways <3 zero, <3 Fanta, <3 G5, and completely agree with OP
On September 28 2010 05:08 Iplaythings wrote: Id usually take 10 minutes to get a game at best
Before beta this was rarely above 2 minutes, yep, sc2 killed my BW and made me turn to LoL =)
it takes me 1-2 minutes on average O_O
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
On September 27 2010 12:14 dukethegold wrote: I say the lack of innovation and competition would kill the brood war scene. There are very few innovators left in pro-gaming scene and most just play standard - which is boring. There are only couple leaders, like Fantasy and Zero, and the rest are all imitators. The new generation of players are simply encouraged to follow the footsteps of the old without being encouraged to create new. Players are too concerned with winning and too afraid of losing to try anything new or be concerned with the desires of the fans.
Like Jaedong and Nada said, the skill gap between progamers are actually pretty close, so they do not dare to do anything creative/risky in fear of losses. The fans aren't helping either. They expect their champions to win against xxx or it's matchfixing rumor mill. If their champion does something gimmicky and loses, negative pressure would be exerted that cause the affected player to lose motivation in innovation. It's a vicious cycle.
For example, Fantasy. He is pretty much the ONLY player remaining in the scene who tries new stuff every other match. Look at all the hate he is getting from TL, for both victory and defeat.
Oh, and of course, it's basically Flash v.s. Jaedong fest right now. Without variation, it simply isn't entertaining.
I am pretty damn sure that the current e-sport scene is not gaining viewership, but rather steadily losing it. If you look at the current trend, most of those who attend a SC live-event are all teens or early 20s. For GSL, it's pretty much all young guys (not even girls). If you look back at the old vods, the age of Boxer and Nada, their fanbase is composed of fans of various generations and ages.
So yeah, I think it's dying.
What e-sport NEEDS is a leader, someone who truly shines, outspoken, charismatic, able to unite all e-sport fans and attract new fans across the generations by reaching out to the mainstream like Boxer once did. We need somebody with Flash's mentality, Stork's personality, Fantasy's creativity, and Bisu's face.
LOL
while I of course enjoy creative play, I never found a real problem with standard paly and dont really understand the complaints about it being boring, anyways <3 zero, <3 Fanta, <3 G5, and completely agree with OP
Yeah, sports can only be possible if there's constant innovation. After all, thats why Baseball, Basketball, Football, Soccer, and Tennis are so popular, because every season the way the game is played changes completely.
On September 27 2010 22:39 ShadeR wrote: @^ Whilst i might disagree with you on how "obvious" it is that proBW will die soon. Isn't it a pity that we'll have to settle with SC2....
What I find most amusing about the sc2 thing is that the glaring issues it has right now pretty much threaten its progaming scene and Blizzard doesnt seem to be doing much about it. The mass exodus of pro sc2 zerg players to other races makes me kinda laugh.
All the obtuse, abusive admin louts are running it into the ground. However, that's been going on ever since they started expanding the crew and removed all sorts of communication and intelligence requirements for becoming an admin. The steady decline is reaching it's climax and very soon iccup will become uninhabitable.
Just need to find a good server to replace it. The korean servers are teeming with players, so ppl should go there. Minilauncher is capable of replacing the iccup AH too.
On September 28 2010 05:27 CurLy[] wrote: SC2 is a pretty good game guys :D
Good God... There should be a way to keep these assholes out of the real forums ... like some sort of toggle in the profile settings or something.
I believe there's still plenty of room for innovation in brood war, meta games are always changing. While there may not be as much room for variety as there used to be back in the old days, the fact is that thats because bw is played at such a high level across the board now that the game is really well understood by all top players. And is a high, if more consistent, standard of play really a bad thing? I think it makes sc able to be viewed as a real professional sport.
I mean, think of other sports: You could probably view chess in a similar way, most of the crazy innovation was done in the infancy of the game. The only difference is that was in like the middle ages and shit (and probably last 200 years) but now a high standard of play has been set so you don't see as much variety as i'm sure you used to. But that doesn't have to make it any less entertaining or awesome.
On September 28 2010 08:59 funnybananaman wrote: I believe there's still plenty of room for innovation in brood war, meta games are always changing. While there may not be as much room for variety as there used to be back in the old days, the fact is that thats because bw is played at such a high level across the board now that the game is really well understood by all top players. And is a high, if more consistent, standard of play really a bad thing? I think it makes sc able to be viewed as a real professional sport.
I mean, think of other sports: You could probably view chess in a similar way, most of the crazy innovation was done in the infancy of the game. The only difference is that was in like the middle ages and shit (and probably last 200 years) but now a high standard of play has been set so you don't see as much variety as i'm sure you used to. But that doesn't have to make it any less entertaining or awesome.
quite true
i'm pretty sure there's still way more strategical innovation going on in BW than there is in the vast majority of spectator sports in the world.
there are more moves in chess than there are atoms in the known universe or some such quote i cant remember exactly but i feel this came from some eminent guy so bw being far more complicated than chess as i believe it to be is impossible to perfect
On September 28 2010 10:47 kawatan wrote: there are more moves in chess than there are atoms in the known universe or some such quote i cant remember exactly but i feel this came from some eminent guy so bw being far more complicated than chess as i believe it to be is impossible to perfect
Well there are in fact more moves in chess than atoms since an atom is a single element and there's only like 118 elements (depending on what chart you use). The truth of the matter is that there's a ton of depth to SCBW and we clearly haven't maxed it out yet or else someone would have a 100% record with all starleagues + WCG undefeated season.
On September 27 2010 22:39 ShadeR wrote: Isn't it a pity that we'll have to settle with SC2....
I won't settle. If BW dies, my SC days are over. unless SC3 comes out in 12 years and is actually as good as bw lol
This is pretty much my exact feelings. I stopped playing SC2. I stopped watching SC2. It's just not as good, in my humble opinion. Hopefully televised Brood War will continue, if not StarCraft will end up being one of those pleasant memories for me and nothing more.
Unless the expansions are just ridiculous and completely change the game that is, but I find that to be unlikely.
Although it may be unlikely, if Flash and Jaedong are stopped from taking the next couple of OSL's/MSL's, and then the BW proscene completely dies out, NaDa has a chance at holding the record for most starleague golds that he got back in 06. Hopefully this won't be the case though (the part about there only being several more MSL's and OSL's).
The only thing I'm worried about is the lack of new blood coming into the BW proscene. From Batoo OSL writeup, emphasis mine:
Starcraft is not the same as it was two years ago. Two years ago we witnessed Bisu literally turn the Starcraft world on it's head as he took out Savior. Over the course of the year, the old players we forum veterans had known for years began to slip away - and were replaced with a bunch of rookies we had no emotional affiliation with... Well, that was until they took out our beloved players from the OSL/MSL. The new gamers had been accumulating since the Shinhan series of OSLs but were only just now spilling over into full league dominance. The names Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Flash, Luxury, Yellow[arnc], Best, Kal, free, firebathero, Mind, Jangbi and Hwasin became familiar, and we grew to love them just like we had done with the previous generation.
Batoo OSL is a point where we have once attained a balance in the proscene. The players making it far into the leagues are not masses of random rookies that are unfamiliar to us, they are players that we know and love who have been growing over time.
The rate of incoming new players who can challenge the veterans has slowed to a crawl. Go look at the first page of TLPD players; very few of them were unknowns at that time, and none of the ones that are are a credible threat to win an individual league even if you got rid of Flash and Jaedong. You want to count Effort, fine, but Stats, Horang2, and Action aren't exactly tearing shit up. Maybe Baby can make some noise? It's no wonder that this is happening - the skill level has risen so high that it must be insanely hard to even break into a team's proleague lineup, let alone hang with established players like Stork, Sea, fantasy, or free... and then there's Flash and Jaedong. If pro BW dies I wouldn't be so quick to heap the blame onto SC2.
On September 28 2010 14:22 Crunchums wrote: The only thing I'm worried about is the lack of new blood coming into the BW proscene. From Batoo OSL writeup, emphasis mine:
Starcraft is not the same as it was two years ago. Two years ago we witnessed Bisu literally turn the Starcraft world on it's head as he took out Savior. Over the course of the year, the old players we forum veterans had known for years began to slip away - and were replaced with a bunch of rookies we had no emotional affiliation with... Well, that was until they took out our beloved players from the OSL/MSL. The new gamers had been accumulating since the Shinhan series of OSLs but were only just now spilling over into full league dominance. The names Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Flash, Luxury, Yellow[arnc], Best, Kal, free, firebathero, Mind, Jangbi and Hwasin became familiar, and we grew to love them just like we had done with the previous generation.
Batoo OSL is a point where we have once attained a balance in the proscene. The players making it far into the leagues are not masses of random rookies that are unfamiliar to us, they are players that we know and love who have been growing over time.
The rate of incoming new players who can challenge the veterans has slowed to a crawl. Go look at the first page of TLPD players; very few of them were unknowns at that time, and none of the ones that are are a credible threat to win an individual league even if you got rid of Flash and Jaedong. You want to count Effort, fine, but Stats, Horang2, and Action aren't exactly tearing shit up. Maybe Baby can make some noise? It's no wonder that this is happening - the skill level has risen so high that it must be insanely hard to even break into a team's proleague lineup, let alone hang with established players like Stork, Sea, fantasy, or free... and then there's Flash and Jaedong. If pro BW dies I wouldn't be so quick to heap the blame onto SC2.
it's funny because baby has been around for like 3 years now and everyone knows him lol. there's no way he's "new".
stats, snow and action seem to be the best of the newest generation.
One thing you can't forget is that BW can't exactly be figured out entirely because it's constantly changing. New maps can give birth to new strategies and counters that can revolutionize the play. For example, having maps with narrow chokes allows for forge FE.
On September 28 2010 14:28 Ideas wrote: it's funny because baby has been around for like 3 years now and everyone knows him lol. there's no way he's "new".
Sure, but he didn't start getting regular playtime until recently.
stats, snow and action seem to be the best of the newest generation.
I just watched the 200$ TvZ challenge. God, it hurt my eyes : games were quite boring, game engine always seems very slow, graphics are not that good, not that clear nor very well designed.
No offensive talk here ; i enjoy the new game very much, casualy with my friends.
But damn, if some rational people are still around here, there will be bw players for sure, and bw proscene will last long...
Whether people like it or not, Starcraft 2 has broken through in ways that Warcraft 3 never managed to do so.
Those of you who were around War3 launch remember how much furor, anger and dissapointment there was for people who were hoping this was BW 2.0, and mere 3 weeks after release the game almost saw a 40% drop in US and EU servers when it came to players.
Only later did players come back to play DOTA which became bigger than the RTS game itself.
SC2 has overcome, and while there is a small section of die hard BW players who refuse to accept it,SC2 has done amazingly well in luring players from BW, foreigners and Koreans alike in ways that alot of people doubted would ever happen.
BW isent dying becuase SC2 is here, but because spectators and interest amongst people just isent as big as it once was, had SC2 been here the situation would be similar to as it is now.
You cant tell me or anyone with a straight face that BW proscene in Korea has been as colorful and exciting the last 2-3 years as it was in BoxeRs days.
Haven't played BW in like 8 years. But I'm getting Sc2 CE, just for a copy of the old sc and bw, since I lost mine. Should be fun just to play some more for fun and compare the two better.
People will enjoy whatever they want, but I do think the intro of Sc2 will spell the end of the BW pro scene, eventually. Only seems reasonable, especially with the amount of money and attention Sc2 has gotten/will get. 2 more expansions and who knows what will happen.
Even if I were a BW fanatic myself I wouldn't see this as a terrible thing, just more BW for me.
Can someone remind me whats worse about Sc2 than BW? Balance? Maybe? Considering how long Sc2 has even been out.
As long as the S-class players like Flash, JD and Stork remains, nothing will be destroyed. And as well all know, Flash has no intentions of going anywhere anytime soon...
However, when the superstars of today retire, and the new shots aren't quite as good cuz the real talents moved to SC2 already, we might have a problem. What BW needs is a face. Recognizable players. Like David Beckham or Messi!
Flash? Jaedong? Boxer? i mean you wont get a recognizable face where the sport isn't popular and nobody knows about it (i.e. america) but in korea i'm sure they're household names. And we don't really have any evidence yet to suggest that there won't be more to replace them when they retire and stuff. We don't know if the real up and coming talents will all move to SC2 or if it'll be 50/50 or what. And since SC2 as a game takes a lot less talent any up and coming player that goes to BW will quickly become more talented than his SC2 counterpart.
But you're right some players with a lot of "potential" for amazing talent could pick SC2 over brood war but hopefully there will be enough that don't.
Just play SC2. It won't kill you. I know familiar is always better (look at 1.6 and Source). But unlike 1.6 and Source, SC2 is at least a serviceable (I think much improved but you may differ) competitive replacement.
Why exactly is it such a bad thing if SC finally dies? I know you guys love the game but I think you would be very happy with SC2 if you were open to it.
Not SC2 versus SC again. Stop hijacking the thread. I've played both for a fair amount as have many TLers and I must say SC2 is far from polished. SC won't die. The Korean Pro Scene might not exist in a few years time, but that doesn't mean people won't still play. Even if ICCUP burns to the ground, something will replace it just like PGTour, WGTour, Cloudmania, etc. Stop crying wolf.
its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Why? Most physical sports have been around for centuries. Why do people have this mentality that BW has to die?
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
On the other hand, there's also the case of Windows XP and Vista, where people realized that Vista was a crappy system, so some even paid to have their computers downgraded to XP.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
The main problem I have with this insistence of "Out with the old, in with the new" is that there's no reason right now to believe that SC2 has the potential to develop into what BW has become. There's simply no reason to say that one should oust the other simply because it has the same name with a "2" at the end of it.
And for me, I seriously doubt that SC2 will ever become more interesting to me unless there's a complete overhaul of graphics and engine. My issue with the game has nothing to do with balance or skill level. It's simply not fun to watch. I don't think "evolution" will change that.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Why? Most physical sports have been around for centuries. Why do people have this mentality that BW has to die?
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
On the other hand, there's also the case of Windows XP and Vista, where people realized that Vista was a crappy system, so some even paid to have their computers downgraded to XP.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
The main problem I have with this insistence of "Out with the old, in with the new" is that there's no reason right now to believe that SC2 has the potential to develop into what BW has become. There's simply no reason to say that one should oust the other simply because it has the same name with a "2" at the end of it.
And for me, I seriously doubt that SC2 will ever become more interesting to me unless there's a complete overhaul of graphics and engine. My issue with the game has nothing to do with balance or skill level. It's simply not fun to watch. I don't think "evolution" will change that.
1. SC is not a physical sport...lol. I'm not saying it HAS to die, but im saying its inevitable. OFC some will still play.
2.Windows Xp and Vista? Thats one example. You cant even comprehend how many examples i could give you. /facepalm
3.No reason for SC2 potential? How can you say that when the game came out 3 months ago? Thats almost like saying WoW would never have 15+ million subscribers in a few years because the first 3+ months were bad/unbalanced. Patches, Expansions, and nerfs is what evolves the game. No potential is YOUR opinion. Not saying my opinion isn't what i used for this post, but from feedback and the amount of people on it atm, it does have potential. Lol im not saying trust it cuz its a sequel, im saying trust it from the TL community, the casual gamers, the millions playing it atm, the tournys, sponsers, the pros. The GFX/Engine i will not even comment about. Ridic. The game has alot to do about skill level. let it develop ffs. Not fun to watch is a stupid, vague, unsupported opinion.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Why? Most physical sports have been around for centuries. Why do people have this mentality that BW has to die?
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
On the other hand, there's also the case of Windows XP and Vista, where people realized that Vista was a crappy system, so some even paid to have their computers downgraded to XP.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
The main problem I have with this insistence of "Out with the old, in with the new" is that there's no reason right now to believe that SC2 has the potential to develop into what BW has become. There's simply no reason to say that one should oust the other simply because it has the same name with a "2" at the end of it.
And for me, I seriously doubt that SC2 will ever become more interesting to me unless there's a complete overhaul of graphics and engine. My issue with the game has nothing to do with balance or skill level. It's simply not fun to watch. I don't think "evolution" will change that.
1. SC is not a physical sport...lol. I'm not saying it HAS to die, but im saying its inevitable. OFC some will still play.
2.Windows Xp and Vista? Thats one example. You cant even comprehend how many examples i could give you. /facepalm
3.No reason for SC2 potential? How can you say that when the game came out 3 months ago? Thats almost like saying WoW would never have 15+ million subscribers in a few years because the first 3+ months were bad/unbalanced. Patches, Expansions, and nerfs is what evolves the game. No potential is YOUR opinion. Not saying my opinion isn't what i used for this post, but from feedback and the amount of people on it atm, it does have potential. Lol im not saying trust it cuz its a sequel, im saying trust it from the TL community, the casual gamers, the millions playing it atm, the tournys, sponsers, the pros. The GFX/Engine i will not even comment about. Ridic. The game has alot to do about skill level. let it develop ffs. Not fun to watch is a stupid, vague, unsupported opinion.
You're missing the point.
It is indeed only my opinion that SC2 is uninteresting to watch. But this is an argument of opinion. "Not fun to watch" is vague and unsupported, but in the grand scheme of things "not fun to watch" is all that matters.
I'll give you the main reason why I find it no fun to watch, just to explain myself better: The unit AI is just too good. Whereas watching BW, I feel like I'm watching a player control his army; in SC2, it feels like I'm just watching people 1a armies into each other. That combined with gloomy colors and smooth motions just don't lend to excitement. BW's engine is glitchy and imperfect, but that imperfection is what makes it so interesting.
Your post was trying to explain why we should want SC2 to come and replace the BW scene. I explained why I don't want that. I could argue all of your analogies and specifics, but my point is that old things don't always need to die, and newer does not always mean better.
The only argument of yours that is not some random irrelevant nitpick is that we should trust SC2 because of all of the support it has now. Well, SC2 is the result of years of hype, and it's been pidgeonholed by Blizzard as an eSport and advertised as such. It's also following up on the success of BW. Of course it's going to be have some success as a game and as an eSport in the first months after its release. But it doesn't really have much bearing on whether this will be lasting. And, in my opinion, it won't last.
also:
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. [...] (note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
1. SC is not a physical sport...lol. I'm not saying it HAS to die, but im saying its inevitable. OFC some will still play.
You are kidding right? You think just anyone can consistently sustain those 12 hour practice sessions? People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
I completely agree with this. Flash especially shows new strategy all the time. What I think people mean when they complain about lack of innovation is lack of flair. Flash, for instance, has very little flair--whether he's being cheesy, standard, aggressive, or turtling, it's done in a straightforward and solid way. Fantasy has more flair with his use of vultures and such, but generally, modern players don't show much flair. That doesn't mean the game is going to die due to lack of innovation, but it could mean that not enough people will want to watch it.
Please tell me they are keeping a pro scene in cave-drawing and mammoth hunting too. I just love keeping old archaic things going... if for no other reason than I simply don't know how to move forward in life.
It's so much fun getting better at old things rather than taking on new challenges... because the sign of a real winner is someone that wins solely because nobody else can be bothered to compete in an aging game. I love beating other players that have played 5% as long as I have... cause it makes me feel so good to be better - even if any trained monkey that has played as long as I have would do just as well. Ahh... good times.
1. SC is not a physical sport...lol. I'm not saying it HAS to die, but im saying its inevitable. OFC some will still play.
You are kidding right? You think just anyone can consistently sustain those 12 hour practice sessions? People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
You do realize virtually everything good in the world comes about through progress, right? Do you think the NBA would be a big success if they were still shooting the ball into wooden barrels where they had to pull the ball out the top every time? How about the NHL only playable on actual ice rinks in some frozen wasteland? They had an audience... but it wasn't exactly growing.
As it stands, SC:BW is not "dying", but it is not picking up success anywhere besides Korea. Nobody in the rest of the world cares about it, and due to its brutal graphics... it obviously has a shelf life that MUST end (at least in the eyes of the viewing public).
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Why? Most physical sports have been around for centuries. Why do people have this mentality that BW has to die?
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
On the other hand, there's also the case of Windows XP and Vista, where people realized that Vista was a crappy system, so some even paid to have their computers downgraded to XP.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
The main problem I have with this insistence of "Out with the old, in with the new" is that there's no reason right now to believe that SC2 has the potential to develop into what BW has become. There's simply no reason to say that one should oust the other simply because it has the same name with a "2" at the end of it.
And for me, I seriously doubt that SC2 will ever become more interesting to me unless there's a complete overhaul of graphics and engine. My issue with the game has nothing to do with balance or skill level. It's simply not fun to watch. I don't think "evolution" will change that.
1. SC is not a physical sport...lol. I'm not saying it HAS to die, but im saying its inevitable. OFC some will still play.
2.Windows Xp and Vista? Thats one example. You cant even comprehend how many examples i could give you. /facepalm
3.No reason for SC2 potential? How can you say that when the game came out 3 months ago? Thats almost like saying WoW would never have 15+ million subscribers in a few years because the first 3+ months were bad/unbalanced. Patches, Expansions, and nerfs is what evolves the game. No potential is YOUR opinion. Not saying my opinion isn't what i used for this post, but from feedback and the amount of people on it atm, it does have potential. Lol im not saying trust it cuz its a sequel, im saying trust it from the TL community, the casual gamers, the millions playing it atm, the tournys, sponsers, the pros. The GFX/Engine i will not even comment about. Ridic. The game has alot to do about skill level. let it develop ffs. Not fun to watch is a stupid, vague, unsupported opinion.
You're missing the point.
It is indeed only my opinion that SC2 is uninteresting to watch. But this is an argument of opinion. "Not fun to watch" is vague and unsupported, but in the grand scheme of things "not fun to watch" is all that matters.
I'll give you the main reason why I find it no fun to watch, just to explain myself better: The unit AI is just too good. Whereas watching BW, I feel like I'm watching a player control his army; in SC2, it feels like I'm just watching people 1a armies into each other. That combined with gloomy colors and smooth motions just don't lend to excitement. BW's engine is glitchy and imperfect, but that imperfection is what makes it so interesting.
Your post was trying to explain why we should want SC2 to come and replace the BW scene. I explained why I don't want that. I could argue all of your analogies and specifics, but my point is that old things don't always need to die, and newer does not always mean better.
The only argument of yours that is not some random irrelevant nitpick is that we should trust SC2 because of all of the support it has now. Well, SC2 is the result of years of hype, and it's been pidgeonholed by Blizzard as an eSport and advertised as such. It's also following up on the success of BW. Of course it's going to be have some success as a game and as an eSport in the first months after its release. But it doesn't really have much bearing on whether this will be lasting. And, in my opinion, it won't last.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. [...] (note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
lol
I do understand what you mean with the A.I; It is a good point. SC2 is a little dumbed down.
But thats also the thing, people dont want to spend 12 hours a day just to compete. BW was too hardcore, and it pulled people away from it. SC2 has balanced it so that people can adapt and learn and get good without putting your life into the game.
I dont think my post was trying to say SC2 is better and you should forget BW, i was more getting to the point of people crying that BW is declining and that its natural, esp with its runtime. My arguments are not random, irrelevant nitpick, thats a silly thing to say. OFC its be a result of years of hype, and no shit SC2 has followed the success of BW. Yeah the first couple months are the baby stages, but thats the thing, dont judge it completely from the small amount of time its been out.
The WoW analogy works the same way with your argument, you say sc2 doesnt have the spark BW had and wont last, next thing you know 15 million+ people are subscribed to WoW. Give SC2 time. Your saying it won't last out of your ass. Im not saying SC2 is better and that newer is always better, im saying that based on the community and all the feedback(not to mention the millions in sales in the first month), this is just another case of it. Your posts are more on opinion, while mine is also opinions but i have facts to support it..
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
You do realize virtually everything good in the world comes about through progress, right? Do you think the NBA would be a big success if they were still shooting the ball into wooden barrels where they had to pull the ball out the top every time? How about the NHL only playable on actual ice rinks in some frozen wasteland? They had an audience... but it wasn't exactly growing.
As it stands, SC:BW is not "dying", but it is not picking up success anywhere besides Korea. Nobody in the rest of the world cares about it, and due to its brutal graphics... it obviously has a shelf life that MUST end (at least in the eyes of the viewing public).
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
this is such a horrible argument... on so many fronts. you make my head hurt
this basically boils down to "bw graphics bad. it's not fair that someone with more experience at a task than me is better at it just because they know what to do!" you really need to think about you type before you type it:
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time.
"unfair experience-advantage"? WTF. "he played the game more than me, but Im so smart, i just dont know anything yet!" the experienced user SHOULD have the upper-hand. and then you act like there all these great BW geniuses out that they know how to adapt and create new strategies but are held back simply by not knowing how to play the game at all. guess what? you learn these things THROUGH experience. it's just how things work.
there's a reason SC2 is a horrible fucking spectator sport right now: no one has any EXPERIENCE (also there are a few major game design flaws that hold it back even more). if you think TLO is some fucking einstein right now, just wait till he has 10 more years experience playing SC2 (assuming it doesnt die out).
also, who the fuck cares about ESPORTS. i care about BW. most esports (well, all esports outside of BW really) are fucking awful and i have no interest in them. BW is the only real esport in my eyes. you act like we must all make this sacrifice and play a shittier game just so ESPORTS can grow, but who gives a fuck. i just want to have fun playing BW and watch JD win the OSL again.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Why? Most physical sports have been around for centuries. Why do people have this mentality that BW has to die?
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
On the other hand, there's also the case of Windows XP and Vista, where people realized that Vista was a crappy system, so some even paid to have their computers downgraded to XP.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
The main problem I have with this insistence of "Out with the old, in with the new" is that there's no reason right now to believe that SC2 has the potential to develop into what BW has become. There's simply no reason to say that one should oust the other simply because it has the same name with a "2" at the end of it.
And for me, I seriously doubt that SC2 will ever become more interesting to me unless there's a complete overhaul of graphics and engine. My issue with the game has nothing to do with balance or skill level. It's simply not fun to watch. I don't think "evolution" will change that.
1. SC is not a physical sport...lol. I'm not saying it HAS to die, but im saying its inevitable. OFC some will still play.
2.Windows Xp and Vista? Thats one example. You cant even comprehend how many examples i could give you. /facepalm
3.No reason for SC2 potential? How can you say that when the game came out 3 months ago? Thats almost like saying WoW would never have 15+ million subscribers in a few years because the first 3+ months were bad/unbalanced. Patches, Expansions, and nerfs is what evolves the game. No potential is YOUR opinion. Not saying my opinion isn't what i used for this post, but from feedback and the amount of people on it atm, it does have potential. Lol im not saying trust it cuz its a sequel, im saying trust it from the TL community, the casual gamers, the millions playing it atm, the tournys, sponsers, the pros. The GFX/Engine i will not even comment about. Ridic. The game has alot to do about skill level. let it develop ffs. Not fun to watch is a stupid, vague, unsupported opinion.
You're missing the point.
It is indeed only my opinion that SC2 is uninteresting to watch. But this is an argument of opinion. "Not fun to watch" is vague and unsupported, but in the grand scheme of things "not fun to watch" is all that matters.
I'll give you the main reason why I find it no fun to watch, just to explain myself better: The unit AI is just too good. Whereas watching BW, I feel like I'm watching a player control his army; in SC2, it feels like I'm just watching people 1a armies into each other. That combined with gloomy colors and smooth motions just don't lend to excitement. BW's engine is glitchy and imperfect, but that imperfection is what makes it so interesting.
Your post was trying to explain why we should want SC2 to come and replace the BW scene. I explained why I don't want that. I could argue all of your analogies and specifics, but my point is that old things don't always need to die, and newer does not always mean better.
The only argument of yours that is not some random irrelevant nitpick is that we should trust SC2 because of all of the support it has now. Well, SC2 is the result of years of hype, and it's been pidgeonholed by Blizzard as an eSport and advertised as such. It's also following up on the success of BW. Of course it's going to be have some success as a game and as an eSport in the first months after its release. But it doesn't really have much bearing on whether this will be lasting. And, in my opinion, it won't last.
also:
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. [...] (note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
lol
I do understand what you mean with the A.I; It is a good point. SC2 is a little dumbed down.
But thats also the thing, people dont want to spend 12 hours a day just to compete. BW was too hardcore, and it pulled people away from it. SC2 has balanced it so that people can adapt and learn and get good without putting your life into the game.
I dont think my post was trying to say SC2 is better and you should forget BW, i was more getting to the point of people crying that BW is declining and that its natural, esp with its runtime. My arguments are not random, irrelevant nitpick, thats a silly thing to say. OFC its be a result of years of hype, and no shit SC2 has followed the success of BW. Yeah the first couple months are the baby stages, but thats the thing, dont judge it completely from the small amount of time its been out.
The WoW analogy works the same way with your argument, you say sc2 doesnt have the spark BW had and wont last, next thing you know 15 million+ people are subscribed to WoW. Give SC2 time. Your saying it won't last out of your ass. Im not saying SC2 is better and that newer is always better, im saying that based on the community and all the feedback(not to mention the millions in sales in the first month), this is just another case of it. Your posts are more on opinion, while mine is also opinions but i have facts to support it..
"lol" = wait some time, sc2 will evolve.
So yeah, your whole post is pretty much irrelevant to the argument you originally made.
i.e. I wasn't arguing mainly that sc2 won't succeed and replace BW; I was arguing your point that it should or that it has to.
I loved BW, i mean who wouldn't, great great great memories of 10 years (for me personally), it was awesome and great, and I do still play BW, but I really want SC2 to succeed, to thrive, and to be better than BW, why anyone wouldnt want this is strange to me, not really what the thread is about, but if SC2 can be more entertaining with better players, better casting, why not support it, this isn't SC2 vs Bw and it should never be, thinking back to my and my brother satying up till 5 AM on school nights to play Customs was some of the best times i had, but I moved on, and if I can get that again with SC2, that same feeling, Why not?
On September 29 2010 16:00 Slago wrote: I loved BW, i mean who wouldn't, great great great memories of 10 years (for me personally), it was awesome and great, and I do still play BW, but I really want SC2 to succeed, to thrive, and to be better than BW, why anyone wouldnt want this is strange to me, not really what the thread is about, but if SC2 can be more entertaining with better players, better casting, why not support it, this isn't SC2 vs Bw and it should never be, thinking back to my and my brother satying up till 5 AM on school nights to play Customs was some of the best times i had, but I moved on, and if I can get that again with SC2, that same feeling, Why not?
It's not so much about wanting, because honestly who wouldn't want an e-sport more enjoyable than bw, but it's just that sc2 isn't doing it for a lot of us. I don't mind it succeding as an e-sport either.
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
User was temp banned for this post.
Why do you even care? What does it matter if people still want to be able to watch bw, and how does it even affect your precious sc2? It's just weird that you found your way in here just to tell everyone you want bw to die for whatever reason. Probably trying to provoke an emotional response aka trolling, so should be perm ban imo.
On September 29 2010 15:07 Ideas wrote: this basically boils down to "bw graphics bad. it's not fair that someone with more experience at a task than me is better at it just because they know what to do!"
No, it doesn't boil down to that. You missed it completely. Reply fail.
On September 29 2010 15:07 Ideas wrote: also, who the fuck cares about ESPORTS. i care about BW. most esports (well, all esports outside of BW really) are fucking awful and i have no interest in them. BW is the only real esport in my eyes. you act like we must all make this sacrifice and play a shittier game just so ESPORTS can grow, but who gives a fuck. i just want to have fun playing BW and watch JD win the OSL again.
Well, if you didn't notice... my whole reply was towards someone that was specifically discussing eSports. I am not trying to have a "BW should live-forever discussion". I was replying to someone that was interested in the future of eSports. Your entire reply is irrelevant, since you aren't even discussing things with the same end-goal.
You just want to keep some ancient game alive... because you and other people have sunk so much time into it that you have an unfair advantage. What would you think if some nutcase was saying "SC:BW is ruining the mammoth hunting scene... why can't we just stick with something we all have experience with... blah blah". Get over it... BW is dying and WILL disappear at some point. You may enjoy it, and that is great... but that doesn't change the facts. Sorry.
On September 30 2010 01:14 ppshchik wrote: SC2 is an overrated trash game. SC2 ladder is filled with a bunch of kiddos and warcraft 3 players who cheese and all in you.
ICCUP community is way more mature.
By definition, yes... the game has had longer to "mature". If you mean more mature when it comes to discussing things... re-read your post. You sound like an 80 year old man - who rejects all innovation and thinks new technology/ideas are stupid. Congrats - I'm sure a lot of people enjoy hearing you nag on anything modern. If that negative attitude is maturity - I don't want it.
You just want to keep some ancient game alive... because you and other people have sunk so much time into it that you have an unfair advantage. What would you think if some nutcase was saying "SC:BW is ruining the mammoth hunting scene... why can't we just stick with something we all have experience with... blah blah". Get over it... BW is dying and WILL disappear at some point. You may enjoy it, and that is great... but that doesn't change the facts. Sorry.
So all your anger is fueled by someone who played an older game has an unfair advantage over you? On a side note, I really think that as long as the South Koreans still have interest in BW, it will continue to live on.
BW isn't that much harder. but forced to play koreans all the time, i believe my gaming has gotten alot better skillwise. i am doing quite well with my switch from protoss -> terran -> to zerg currently. in z v t my weakest matchup, i've been getting better at facing terran. i can do my hive transition quite well, and im good at sandwiching the midgame army now. the problem arises when the fucker switches from bio - > mech.
but neways bw is not dead i love the game nothing like a beautiful, comeback game in a 30-40 minute macro dukefest win!
On September 29 2010 15:07 Ideas wrote: this basically boils down to "bw graphics bad. it's not fair that someone with more experience at a task than me is better at it just because they know what to do!"
No, it doesn't boil down to that. You missed it completely. Reply fail.
im pretty sure it did. what does it boil down to then? do you understand how forums work? just replying "no you're wrong" is not a very good rebuttal at all.
You just want to keep some ancient game alive... because you and other people have sunk so much time into it that you have an unfair advantage. What would you think if some nutcase was saying "SC:BW is ruining the mammoth hunting scene... why can't we just stick with something we all have experience with... blah blah". Get over it... BW is dying and WILL disappear at some point. You may enjoy it, and that is great... but that doesn't change the facts. Sorry.
do you honestly think the reason I think SC2 sucks is because im as good in it or something? rofl
in BW i've been playing for 3 years and im only C-. in SC2 im easily in the top 5%. I get my ass kicked on BW sooo much compared to SC2. and if anything, getting my ass kicked all the time on ICCUP is a reason I like BW more, I like always feeling like the underdog and always having to improve myself and learn the game more. SC2 is worse than BW in a plethora of areas, not just "it takes less skill". honestly i dont think that SC2 takes much less skill at all, it's just fucking boring, even if it's almost as hard as BW (and by hard I dont mean "hard to get to top rank" or something but rather "to play the game perfectly").
I was never worried in the first place. People need to calm down. In fact, you know what would be better than making these lame threads about how much BW rocks? Go and play the game!
EDIT: Okay I lied, I was very worried but I've found faith again simply by playing the game. Give it a try guys.
You just want to keep some ancient game alive... because you and other people have sunk so much time into it that you have an unfair advantage. What would you think if some nutcase was saying "SC:BW is ruining the mammoth hunting scene... why can't we just stick with something we all have experience with... blah blah". Get over it... BW is dying and WILL disappear at some point. You may enjoy it, and that is great... but that doesn't change the facts. Sorry.
So all your anger is fueled by someone who played an older game has an unfair advantage over you? On a side note, I really think that as long as the South Koreans still have interest in BW, it will continue to live on.
Aha, no anger here. Just having a discussion. I don't doubt BW will continue to live on for a while... it just won't see any significant growth. There seems to be two debates in this thread. One that says BW will continue (which I can agree with - to a certain extent) and one that thinks it is the future of eSports (which IMO is not going to happen).
No point in trying to convince me that BW will continue to be played by some players... it just isn't the future of eSports and is going to slowly fade out (till very few are still playing it).
On September 30 2010 02:17 Ideas wrote: im pretty sure it did. what does it boil down to then? do you understand how forums work? just replying "no you're wrong" is not a very good rebuttal at all.
Yes, I understand how forums work. I also understand how trolls like you work. My original post is still there for you to read. You can attempt to "sum it up" in some biased way, or you can actually attempt to understand someone elses perspective.
I understand your perspective, I just disagree with it. No hard feelings...
You want BW to live on forever. I simply don't believe it has much future. Will people continue to play it... probably (to some degree). But is it likely to see any significant growth - very doubtful for the reasons I pointed out. The top players are there because they have a lot of experience. Unlike any other major sport (basketball, hockey, etc.) there is very little turn-over in the top players. So, you have guys that are just getting better and better... while others are joining with very little comparative experience. Makes for a repeating podium (can you actually deny that?).
On September 30 2010 02:17 Ideas wrote: in BW i've been playing for 3 years and im only C-. in SC2 im easily in the top 5%. I get my ass kicked on BW sooo much compared to SC2. and if anything, getting my ass kicked all the time on ICCUP is a reason I like BW more, I like always feeling like the underdog and always having to improve myself and learn the game more. SC2 is worse than BW in a plethora of areas, not just "it takes less skill". honestly i dont think that SC2 takes much less skill at all, it's just fucking boring, even if it's almost as hard as BW (and by hard I dont mean "hard to get to top rank" or something but rather "to play the game perfectly").
Well yes.. SC2 is a new game. So everyone is much closer in experience. There are still some players that are clearly better (many ex-BW pros), but they don't have as significant of a strategic advantage... yet. This quote of yours proves my point. You do poorly in BW because so many players have MASSIVE experience over you. The whole idea of "natural talent" is mostly BS. Players beat you cause they have been playing longer... plain and simple. Every new idea you have... they have seen it and know how to beat it. Very little room for innovation - especially if you are relatively new to the game.
SC2 resets all that. Tons of room for people to showcase their true creativity, and their ability to adapt to a whole new set of options. You may not agree with me that it is a good thing, but you can't deny that this is what is actually happening. Within a year or two... there WILL BE pros that are unstoppable by newcomers. Right now, yes... it's pretty easy to be top 5%, but obviously that will change. I'm sure in the first 3 months of BW - it was relatively easy too.
Everyone thinks BW is somehow magically different, but the only difference it has is time. SC2 will make up for that eventually... and when BW is almost dead and gone, those that stuck it out will wish they kept up with SC2 when it is huge.
sc newcomer here, a sc2 trial got me into sc over the summer. i have not played much of either to really have a formidable opinion, but i can already tell that bw is a game which requires a lot more multitasking and micro. from my perspective bw = cs 1.6, sc2 = css, with sc2 not being broken like css but still easier than bw. i wish i had gotten into sc a lot earlier as i'm totally overwhelmed by the sheer awesomeness of the game(s) and community. imho, long live bw.
On September 30 2010 05:35 .ImpacT. wrote: BW Proscene is dying because the GSL is so epic to watch, and has such an amazing prize pool ;_; $87,500 for first place T.T
I bet you haven't watched any OSL final then, after that you can have a new definition of the word "epic". The reason that BW is dying, if it is dying at all, is because Blizzard want to kill it to promote SC2 and make more money.
On September 30 2010 05:30 limonovich wrote: sc newcomer here, a sc2 trial got me into sc over the summer. i have not played much of either to really have a formidable opinion, but i can already tell that bw is a game which requires a lot more multitasking and micro. from my perspective bw = cs 1.6, sc2 = css, with sc2 not being broken like css but still easier than bw. i wish i had gotten into sc a lot earlier as i'm totally overwhelmed by the sheer awesomeness of the game(s) and community. imho, long live bw.
On September 30 2010 05:35 .ImpacT. wrote: BW Proscene is dying because the GSL is so epic to watch, and has such an amazing prize pool ;_; $87,500 for first place T.T
I bet you haven't watched any OSL final then, after that you can have a new definition of the word "epic". The reason that BW is dying, if it is dying at all, is because Blizzard want to kill it to promote SC2 and make more money.
this defenitely
also, let's turn progamers into prize-hunters once again... sounds like a really good idea
On September 30 2010 05:35 .ImpacT. wrote: BW Proscene is dying because the GSL is so epic to watch, and has such an amazing prize pool ;_; $87,500 for first place T.T
I bet you haven't watched any OSL final then, after that you can have a new definition of the word "epic". The reason that BW is dying, if it is dying at all, is because Blizzard want to kill it to promote SC2 and make more money.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the sole reason (though it's very likely a factor), seeing as attendance at pro SC1 events was declining since well before SC2 was relevant. Someone else will have the actual statistics on this, but IIRC PL Finals attendance has been rapidly declining for the last 4-5 years.
On September 30 2010 05:35 .ImpacT. wrote: BW Proscene is dying because the GSL is so epic to watch, and has such an amazing prize pool ;_; $87,500 for first place T.T
Partially true, but you have to think these things through. Why does it have $87,500 for first place? Because it has 1000x more viewers. Sponsors give money to what people want to see, NOT the other way around. And the fact is right now most people want to see sc2. So it isn't really fair to blame the sponsors. They don't give a shit lol they'd give that much money to brood war in a second if they thought enough people still cared about it.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
You do realize virtually everything good in the world comes about through progress, right? Do you think the NBA would be a big success if they were still shooting the ball into wooden barrels where they had to pull the ball out the top every time? How about the NHL only playable on actual ice rinks in some frozen wasteland? They had an audience... but it wasn't exactly growing.
As it stands, SC:BW is not "dying", but it is not picking up success anywhere besides Korea. Nobody in the rest of the world cares about it, and due to its brutal graphics... it obviously has a shelf life that MUST end (at least in the eyes of the viewing public).
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
LOL, kid.. you're a real piece of work. It's pretty obvious you're a troll and/or completely relieved of intelligence; either way, you should be happy for all the attention that you got in this thread with your flamebait.
Just to dispel some of the shitty conjectures that you have brought to this discussion for the sake of other readers:
1. Explain please how a game like chess, which in some instances does not even have graphics, is able to maintain a player base and audience 2000 years after its inception?
2. Your wails regarding the "experience imbalance" new players supposedly experience when undertaking BW is founded only by the fact that you're most likely a D- noob who never managed to win a single game, was too lazy to learn to be better and wrote it off on the belief that everyone else has played the game so long that it is simply impossible for someone new to beat someone who has been playing the game longer than they have.
There are many examples of players taking up SC and reaching the top echelons after a short period of time, here are the two most prominent examples of this:
What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
Do you see how ridiculous this guy sounds when you replace 2 words?
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the Sport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. Baseball has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like Baseball 2 with a rubber ball gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
On September 30 2010 07:40 Ksyper wrote: What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.
Really, playing SC1 for 7 years made me wanna puke.
Jeez, i'm so happy SC2 came out, at least something new is going on, not this same shit. It's time to refresh SC community with new game, new events and new strategies with new pros.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
Do you see how ridiculous this guy sounds when you replace 2 words?
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the Sport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. Baseball has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like Baseball 2 with a rubber ball gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
On September 30 2010 07:40 Ksyper wrote: What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.
Yeah sure, not being a blizzard fanboy and playing their game for 12 years :D. People like you are the reason E-sports still isn't as big as normal sports, no one can take people like you seriously. And pulling numbers out of your ass isn't an argument either, the game didn't come close to 180$, and anyway most games nowadays are expensive.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
Do you see how ridiculous this guy sounds when you replace 2 words?
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the Sport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. Baseball has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like Baseball 2 with a rubber ball gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
On September 30 2010 07:40 Ksyper wrote: What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.
Yeah sure, not being a blizzard fanboy and playing their game for 12 years :D. People like you are the reason E-sports still isn't as big as normal sports, no one can take people like you seriously. And pulling numbers out of your ass isn't an argument either, the game didn't come close to 180$, and anyway most games nowadays are expensive.
I'm a e-sports fanboy that watches every game PL/OSL/MSL has to offer. Guess how much your future "expansions" are going to cost. Games are expensive, maybe that's why i prefer to watch the magnificent art that is BW rather than paying up like mindless drones.
On September 30 2010 07:40 Ksyper wrote: What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
Do you see how ridiculous this guy sounds when you replace 2 words?
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the Sport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. Baseball has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like Baseball 2 with a rubber ball gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
On September 30 2010 07:40 Ksyper wrote: What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.
Yeah sure, not being a blizzard fanboy and playing their game for 12 years :D. People like you are the reason E-sports still isn't as big as normal sports, no one can take people like you seriously. And pulling numbers out of your ass isn't an argument either, the game didn't come close to 180$, and anyway most games nowadays are expensive.
People like you with the whole "out with the old in with the new" mentality are eSports greatest enemies.
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the eSport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. The game has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like SC2 gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
There is such a huge opportunity for eSports to actually materialize into something significant in the entire world. It's sad to see people cling to a game that clearly has no growth potential... and it's just plain frustrating to hear them proclaim that moving the scene forward is somehow a negative thing.
Do you see how ridiculous this guy sounds when you replace 2 words?
So, to say people that want to expand, update, and move the Sport scene forward are somehow it's greatest enemies - is just a really short-sighted thing to say. Baseball has a brutal learning curve where you simply cannot compete unless you have been playing it for many years. IMO, that isn't as much "skill" anymore... and is more muscle memorization + repetitive gameplay. If I start playing today... there is ZERO chance I will ever beat players that have 10+ years of experience. Not because they are inherently smarter players, but because they have a huge experience advantage that would make ANY idiot play better than a new participant.
Do you want pros that win simply based on an unfair experience-advantage, or based on the fact they can adapt and create new strategies in a fresh new game? Personally, I think the real skill comes from being able to adapt and learn something new from time to time. I think a refresh like Baseball 2 with a rubber ball gives the game a huge opportunity for growth, and resets at least some of the experience (obviously macro/micro/multi-tasking still plays a significant role).
On September 30 2010 07:40 Ksyper wrote: What's wrong with you people? Don't play or care about SC2, are you mad!? Go buy SC2 and play it, leave your nostalgic feelings behind and join the majority, you are not helping the community by not buying SC2. BW is never going to really die as long as there are people who want to play it, but that doesn't mean that you should deny yourself a chance to play the future best RTS. In time people will learn that you can't win at a high level by only cheesing or 1 base all ining and everything will be fine.
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.
Yeah sure, not being a blizzard fanboy and playing their game for 12 years :D. People like you are the reason E-sports still isn't as big as normal sports, no one can take people like you seriously. And pulling numbers out of your ass isn't an argument either, the game didn't come close to 180$, and anyway most games nowadays are expensive.
I'm a e-sports fanboy that watches every game PL/OSL/MSL has to offer. Guess how much your future "expansions" are going to cost. Games are expensive, maybe that's why i prefer to watch the magnificent art that is BW rather than paying up like mindless drones.
Calling people who buy SC2 "mindless drones" isn't really helping this discussion you know? Like it or not, people actually have fun playing SC2 over BW.
I'm not about to start a flame war with you close minded people who can't even provide an argument to support their claims. Have fun with your superiority complex.
On September 30 2010 08:55 Ksyper wrote: I'm not about to start a flame war with you close minded people who can't even provide an argument to support their claims. Have fun with your superiority complex.
Jesus Christ.. how about READING THE FUCKING THREAD before posting in it?? Have fun with that vacuum inside that thing on your shoulders.
join the majority
And this. WTF? One should always attempt to be a part of "the majority" according to you? Oh, that's very interesting.. Good thing you're of no importance, because that would actually be scary.
On September 30 2010 07:30 meathook wrote: 1. Explain please how a game like chess, which in some instances does not even have graphics, is able to maintain a player base and audience 2000 years after its inception?
Chess is all fine and good, but if anything it is on the decline. Not to mention - it can at least be modernized (played on iPhone/iPad/computer with new graphics) and survives well as a casual game. Comparing Chess and SC:BW is like apples to oranges... BW has lasted 10 years and is aging fast in terms of design/function/resolution/graphical-appeal (which, regardless if you care - certain audiences do care). Chess is timeless, and is visually updated on an ongoing basis.
On September 30 2010 07:30 meathook wrote: 2. Your wails regarding the "experience imbalance" new players supposedly experience when undertaking BW is founded only by the fact that you're most likely a D- noob who never managed to win a single game, was too lazy to learn to be better and wrote it off on the belief that everyone else has played the game so long that it is simply impossible for someone new to beat someone who has been playing the game longer than they have.
Are you actually going to claim that relative newcomers are dominating the scene? Pretty sure guys like Flash and Jaedong are still at the top... and have been for quite some time. Denying it is pointless. You can come up with some weak examples to the contrary, but they don't actually hold water.
BW may continue to be played for several years to come, but it is a game on the decline. SC2 may fast track that, but it isn't the real reason. As much as you might enjoy BW, it has a shelf life. It's peak has come and gone... and it's been on the decline for a while.
On September 30 2010 07:51 zenMaster wrote:Do you see how ridiculous this guy sounds when you replace 2 words? ... baseball, blah blah
The baseball comparison is so weak. First off, baseball is updated on a regular basis. We now watch it in HD, with better reporting, better coverage, better stat coverage, and new side-games like sports betting / fantasy sports, etc.
They don't throw around an actual leather ball or some turkey neck (whatever the hell they used way back when). The game has clearly been updated and modernized in many significant ways. So bringing that up only supports my point. Things need to evolve... in both big and small ways.
On September 30 2010 07:51 zenMaster wrote: Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.
Since when did the game cost $180. Lemme guess, you are one of those cheapscates that tries to provide as biased information as possible. There will be two add-ons, so you add it all up... and assume it costs that just to play multiplayer (which it doesn't). If you want single-player... guess what, you are actually getting three games. Not worth it? Then don't buy the add-ons.
The fact is... video gaming is simply one of the cheapest forms of entertainment available. Compare it next to almost anything else. For just $60 (which I paid for SC2) - I've already had probably 30 hours of great entertainment... and plan on having hundreds more. Can you say that about going to a movie theater, going out for dinner, going on a mini-vacation? Get over it... gaming is dirt cheap. So if money is the real problem... time for you to get off the computer and get a job.
On September 30 2010 07:30 meathook wrote: 1. Explain please how a game like chess, which in some instances does not even have graphics, is able to maintain a player base and audience 2000 years after its inception?
Chess is all fine and good, but if anything it is on the decline. Not to mention - it can at least be modernized (played on iPhone/iPad/computer with new graphics) and survives well as a casual game. Comparing Chess and SC:BW is like apples to oranges... BW has lasted 10 years and is aging fast in terms of design/function/resolution/graphical-appeal (which, regardless if you care - certain audiences do care). Chess is timeless, and is visually updated on an ongoing basis.
Yeah, visually it may or may not be updated, but in fact this is just some cosmetics for faggots who care. Chess can be played with pen and paper, if needed. The point is that it's strength lies in it's gameplay, not in the way it looks or w/e.
Same goes for SC. I bet you would consider enabling ppl to move more than one piece during a turn in a chess match "an improvement to an outdated game". Because this is what you've been saying.
On September 30 2010 07:30 meathook wrote: 2. Your wails regarding the "experience imbalance" new players supposedly experience when undertaking BW is founded only by the fact that you're most likely a D- noob who never managed to win a single game, was too lazy to learn to be better and wrote it off on the belief that everyone else has played the game so long that it is simply impossible for someone new to beat someone who has been playing the game longer than they have.
Are you actually going to claim that relative newcomers are dominating the scene? Pretty sure guys like Flash and Jaedong are still at the top... and have been for quite some time. Denying it is pointless. You can come up with some weak examples to the contrary, but they don't actually hold water.
BW may continue to be played for several years to come, but it is a game on the decline. SC2 may fast track that, but it isn't the real reason. As much as you might enjoy BW, it has a shelf life. It's peak has come and gone... and it's been on the decline for a while.
You really struggle with reading comprehension, don't you? The whole message was that newcomers can get good at the game if they put effort into becoming such.
Also, those examples are hardly "weak", but you wouldn't know anyway.
EDIT: And stop double posting. There is a fucking edit button.
On September 30 2010 08:11 zenMaster wrote: I'm a e-sports fanboy that watches every game PL/OSL/MSL has to offer. Guess how much your future "expansions" are going to cost. Games are expensive, maybe that's why i prefer to watch the magnificent art that is BW rather than paying up like mindless drones.
Again, games are dirt cheap. Literally one of the cheapest forms of paid entertainment. Dinner out, going to the theater, taking a trip... I'd rather pay $60 for a video game and get literally hundreds of hours of entertainment. How can anybody actually complain about price.
If you can't afford $60 for hundreds of hours of entertainment... you have a bigger problem than worrying about BW vs SC2.
"Oh, but the expansion packs... such a money grab, blah blah"
Don't buy them. You won't need them for multi-player, and if you actually want them for single-player - guess what... sometimes you have to pay for things you want.
On September 30 2010 09:36 meathook wrote: Yeah, visually it may or may not be updated, but in fact this is just some cosmetics for faggots who care. Chess can be played with pen and paper, if needed. The point is that it's strength lies in it's gameplay, not in the way it looks or w/e.
Same goes for SC. I bet you would consider enabling ppl to move more than one piece during a turn in a chess match "an improvement to an outdated game". Because this is what you've been saying.
It isn't just a visual update... and your whole "for faggots who care" line just goes to show you cant actually debate this stuff logically. Regardless of what you think of graphics... plenty of people do care. It affects the growth of the game, the audience size, and other aspects that, like it or not, affect prize pools and other significant factors that benefit a modern game.
If you are just talking about BW surviving... that's great. If you think it's going to challenge SC2 on an on-going basis in the eSports community... sorry, it won't.
Back to your point, Chess didn't just get a minor "visual" update. Even just 100 years ago... could you play online chess? Could you play it from a mobile phone anywhere/anytime? Could you challenge someone on the other side of the world to a quick game? Could you play it against a computer? The updates have been significant - wither you want to admit it or not. Just as SC2 has new broadcasting features, better visual quality, a modern interface, etc.
No, I don't want to change chess... again, you bring up such obvious distractions that have nothing to do with what we are talking about. Signs that your argument is quickly losing steam.
On September 30 2010 09:36 meathook wrote: You really struggle with reading comprehension, don't you? The whole message was that newcomers can get good at the game if they put effort into becoming such.
Also, those examples are hardly "weak", but you wouldn't know anyway.
Ahh, nothing like personal remarks to again signal you really can't debate things point for point. My statements stand. The real BW pros are players that have been playing forever.
I wouldn't know? Apparently you can't actually bring up solid evidence/examples of relative newcomers dominating the scene or consistently beating long-time pros like Flash, Jaedong, stork, etc. That is how you actually have a debate... you bring up facts and point out flawless logic. Name calling and random distractions are pointless.
On September 30 2010 08:55 Ksyper wrote: I'm not about to start a flame war with you close minded people who can't even provide an argument to support their claims. Have fun with your superiority complex.
thank you master.
we all (I mean us, close minded persons) are grateful towards you showing us how great a really, genuienely open actual mind can be
On September 30 2010 08:55 Ksyper wrote: I'm not about to start a flame war with you close minded people who can't even provide an argument to support their claims. Have fun with your superiority complex.
Jesus Christ.. how about READING THE FUCKING THREAD before posting in it?? Have fun with that vacuum inside that thing on your shoulders.
And this. WTF? One should always attempt to be a part of "the majority" according to you? Oh, that's very interesting.. Good thing you're of no importance, because that would actually be scary.
Ok from what I can gather from this thread is that people say SC2 is a joke and players who like it do so because of it's graphics, which isn't true, so those arguments aren't enough. There are even some comments saying that smooth motions somehow make the game less exciting. Also people saying that blizzard only made SC2 as a way to get your hard earned money, which is also a terrible argument because sc and scbw weren't free when they came out. And some guy said something about the fact that there are wc3 players playing sc2 and that somehow that is a bad thing. Oh and something about baseball with a rubber ball. I am not saying that bw should die and that SC2 should replace it or whatever. I just don't agree with what you guys are saying about SC2, it still isn't as perfect as bw, but it will reach that stage in a few years, it's not like when sc came out it was the perfect game that it is today.
On September 30 2010 07:52 Thunderfist wrote: It's time to refresh SC community with new INCOMPLETE game, SO MANY new events YOU WANT TO PUNCH BABIES and A BUNCH OF SIMILAR BALL-ARMY strategies with new WANNA-BE pros.
FTFY.
Ksyper wrote: I'm not about to start a flame war with you close minded people who can't even provide an argument to support their claims.
You don't support your claims. Your opinions are based on a lack of understanding. Your statements are based on a lack of education. GG no re kid.
rick-dmg wrote: How can anybody actually complain about price.
That's a question, not a statement. Its also retarded to NOT question price on anything ever for any reason you could ever conceive. The very fact that someone exists who has this opinion is proof that people have become testicle-less sheep.
rick-dmg wrote: Don't buy them. You won't need them for multi-player, and if you actually want them for single-player - guess what... sometimes you have to pay for things you want.
An intelligent person would infer that the expansions will include new evolution to the so-far shitty and inconsistent storyline. That same intellectual would infer that these new expansions will bring new units and maybe a few balance patches but the balance patches will remain extremely sparse until the game is complete.
A retarded person would infer that you won't need the expansions for multiplayer experience. After all, certainly people with Brood War don't NEED to have gotten BW in order to use the game up-to-date online, right?
If there was a chance you were correct, SC2 would be getting the shit patched out of it very often because nothing new other than shitty storyline would be coming from the expansions.
As for paying for things? Torrents. You lose.
iPlaY.NettleS wrote:my question is - what happens when iccup dies?
Fish and Brainclan are more than capable of supporting the entire casually-competitive population. They even have a superior AH launcher and have a larger playerbase right now. Before some dumbass makes the incorrect point of "Well its Korean, which is somehow a problem.", if a large number of people who aren't korean join them and start playing amongst themselves, guess what you just have iCCup community on another server.
Could users Ksyper and rick-dmg please read the OP, then read their own posts and then (hopefully quickly) realise that their proSC2 posts have no relevence to the OP which was about community solidarity and reassurance that BW will remain alive as long as those who love it wish it to.
a very good thread that was derailed by schmuks .. this is worst that gg.net ..
i just hate SC2 because its represented by gretech who wants to kill the 1st E-sport that was whole heartedly accepted by its target market .. the people of korea .. to think they could have taken tips or notes on how to improve the e-sport scene
and some posters here are more horrible than me! .. srsly this need to stop .. it would be better for Mods to clean this beautiful thread
AND PEOPLE NEED TOP STOP FUCKING WORRYING .. READ THE TITLE AND THE OP, IGNORE DOUBTERS AND TROLLS ..
I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
Edit: Added more.
Just for Ksyper and rick-dmg i want to post this here from another thread started by the OP as well (read this post and the OP's post).
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
i see.. u make a very good point changed my mind nvm about OP
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
QFTMFT. I know someone already quoted it but it deserves to appear at least thrice.
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
who can be arsed when self-proclaimed experts pop-up to argue invalid points and impose their "expertly" opinions onto others?
Its graphics suck
go play crysis
It's hard
go play on the wii
Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
yes, neither of those points are of any importance in esports. just look at counter-strike, no one takes css seriously, lans were and still are being cancelled. the cgs was a complete joke.
cs 1.6 is old, graphically and aesthetically unpleasant (at least for new players) to play, much harder to play than source; yet it still prevails because it is what the community want.
I am aware of my post count, and thus it will probably sound ridiculous of me to say something like this but..
Your post count explains a lot as to why you are not worrying. Even in the off chance that you are really a BW fan and just happen to be calm n composed and not worry, this thread is not for you, it is for ones like me who DO worry. Theres no reason to stop making threads just because they dont cater to YOU, there are other people in the world too.
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
who can be arsed when self-proclaimed experts pop-up to argue invalid points and impose their "expertly" opinions onto others?
yes, neither of those points are of any importance in esports. just look at counter-strike, no one takes css seriously, lans were and still are being cancelled. the cgs was a complete joke.
cs 1.6 is old, graphically and aesthetically unpleasant (at least for new players) to play, much harder to play than source; yet it still prevails because it is what the community want.
Um limonovich... I'm like 99.999999999% sure you may want to re-check your sarcasm radar o_O
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
who can be arsed when self-proclaimed experts pop-up to argue invalid points and impose their "expertly" opinions onto others?
Its graphics suck
go play crysis
It's hard
go play on the wii
Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
yes, neither of those points are of any importance in esports. just look at counter-strike, no one takes css seriously, lans were and still are being cancelled. the cgs was a complete joke.
cs 1.6 is old, graphically and aesthetically unpleasant (at least for new players) to play, much harder to play than source; yet it still prevails because it is what the community want.
Um limonovich... I'm like 99.999999999% sure you may want to re-check your sarcasm radar o_O
On October 02 2010 13:21 RiB wrote: Why do you hate change?
I dont think these guys will ever stop assuming that their "change" is for the better.. And people who dont accept/favor SC2 are just closed-minded morons who are afraid of change..
Its just my personal assumption, but most of the people here in TL should have already given SC2 a try (since we loved BW, and had high hope for its sequel, esp after so much hype).. The fact that we are here talking about this means that after trying out that "change" we find that it sucks, or at least cant match the "old" BW. So yes, rather than change, what we (i) hate is the (vastly) inferior option, and how its trying to force its way down our (my) throat..
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
who can be arsed when self-proclaimed experts pop-up to argue invalid points and impose their "expertly" opinions onto others?
yes, neither of those points are of any importance in esports. just look at counter-strike, no one takes css seriously, lans were and still are being cancelled. the cgs was a complete joke.
cs 1.6 is old, graphically and aesthetically unpleasant (at least for new players) to play, much harder to play than source; yet it still prevails because it is what the community want.
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
who can be arsed when self-proclaimed experts pop-up to argue invalid points and impose their "expertly" opinions onto others?
Its graphics suck
go play crysis
It's hard
go play on the wii
Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
yes, neither of those points are of any importance in esports. just look at counter-strike, no one takes css seriously, lans were and still are being cancelled. the cgs was a complete joke.
cs 1.6 is old, graphically and aesthetically unpleasant (at least for new players) to play, much harder to play than source; yet it still prevails because it is what the community want.
On October 02 2010 17:37 jalstar wrote: Maybe there's just been a lack of pro BW games lately, but I thought that Idra vs Boxer game was pretty fun to watch.
I found it ok to watch, like to or three other games, but honestly, if I had a choice between rewatching every GSL game and every Canata TvT, I would probably choose Canata...
On October 01 2010 03:14 segfix wrote: I am an ESPORTS expert who has been playing competitive BW and following the BW scene for 10+ years. Pay no mind to the fact that I just joined this site in the last month or so, I show no evidence of ever having played ICCUP, I have made 0 posts regarding BW other than to bash it, and my posts show no indication that I have the slightest knowledge of the scene. I assure you that I am an ESPORTS expert who knows absolutely all there is to know about ESPORTS and what's best for the future of ESPORTS, which is to completely abandon and forget about aforementioned 10+ years of excellence and culture. Here are my expertly reasons: 1. It's old 2. Its graphics suck 3. It's hard 4. Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
who can be arsed when self-proclaimed experts pop-up to argue invalid points and impose their "expertly" opinions onto others?
Its graphics suck
go play crysis
It's hard
go play on the wii
Did I mention it's old and has bad graphics?
yes, neither of those points are of any importance in esports. just look at counter-strike, no one takes css seriously, lans were and still are being cancelled. the cgs was a complete joke.
cs 1.6 is old, graphically and aesthetically unpleasant (at least for new players) to play, much harder to play than source; yet it still prevails because it is what the community want.
the UK is closer to romania than I realized!
What exactly are you implying?
He's implying that you're stupid (saying someone is from Romania is how TLer call people stupid). The post you quoted was dripping with so much sarcasm it's a wonder you didn't detect it.
On September 28 2010 00:37 dukethegold wrote: Starcraft is a decade old game. It has been analyzed and overanalyzed to a point of stagnation. Hence, innovation is difficult and discouraged in regular gameplay. The tweaks and small changes in attack timings etc do not matter to the average spectator. If all the average fanbase see is repetition, then obviously they will move on to something else.
When was the last time an innovation was made in baseball? Has anybody invented a new pitch or a better way to swing the bat recently? Rediscovered how to run (lol) to speed up their base running times? Pitchers have been throwing the ball the same damn way for decades and people still watch it. Same with most other "major" sports.
Not having constant innovation doesn't exactly lead to stagnation. If anything there being a "best" strategy that trumps every other strategy does. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time there's another race. You just have to drive the damn car really well every race. NASCAR isn't boring to many people because people want to see different car models, it's because the map pool blows. XD
I started visiting TL late last year as more and more news about SC2 was becoming available. Started watching BW as the streams were available and really liked it. After awhile of watching games/commentaries I started understanding more of the intricacies of the matches. SC2 came out. I'd still rather watch BW at this point.
GSL wasn't too entertaining as a lot of the players were playing sloppy as shit. Sure there's some people that did good, but the game is so young that the playerbase basically hasn't finished inventing the wheel for the first time yet. Maybe in a year or two they'll be more settled. Unfortunately, though I also have some distaste for the design of some of the SC2 units as well, which is a Blizzard issue and not a player one. Terrible, terrible damage syndrome doesn't interest me as a viewer. It's bores me with lopsided battles that the person with far less supply wins because they have the lolunits.
I'll probably still watch SC2 here and there, because honestly I'm a nerd. I'd generally rather watch an esport than a "normal" sport like football or baseball simply because I find them more interesting (and/or identify more... whatever). That's why I actually watched some of the Quake games from IEM (another good example of a game that, by today's standards, looks archaic as shit but is still played competitively). I don't know when any upcoming SC2 events are happening nor do I care. I have, however, checked the TL calendar several times in the past few weeks looking for dates when BW's proleague will start up again. Gimme mah fix now plz, kthx.
Also, the trolls in this thread are hilarious (they're on both sides, of course, attacking their own kind). It does take some time for the truly humorous posts to emerge, usually when they're trying to maintain their position with counter-points, but when it does show itself it is pretty funny.
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.?
Yeah we call them hipsters. Boxer making the move over and now jaedong talking about it? Point is that it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You can play and surely enjoy playing any game you like. Why do you have to have a pro scene to back it up? I love playing the star wars version of age of empires, battle grounds or whatever the name is. I promise there's no pro scene to that. never will be but i still damn enjoy it.
I don't know why some people still can't accept that BW is dying. As if it didn't have a long enough life, you have to let go eventually. Every week another team/player/coach leaves.
Probably because we heard this bw is dying stuff already like 100 times before in the last years. Same was with wc3. Even Boxer said Wc3 will be bigger than Bw in Korea haha... Also it's impossible to die for Broodwar because it is a legend. And it's legacy can never be killed or matched. Even if all pro would suddenly quit in korea, Bw will still be THE legend
On October 04 2010 22:44 Comrade wrote: Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.?
Yeah we call them hipsters. Boxer making the move over and now jaedong talking about it? Point is that it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You can play and surely enjoy playing any game you like. Why do you have to have a pro scene to back it up? I love playing the star wars version of age of empires, battle grounds or whatever the name is. I promise there's no pro scene to that. never will be but i still damn enjoy it.
Uhhhh because i like to watch BW? BW proscene truly is a sport to me. I root for Samsung Khan. I have favourite players. I get excited and hyped with anticipation when theres epic matchups. I yell when i see pimp plays.
On October 04 2010 22:44 Comrade wrote: Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.?
Yeah we call them hipsters. Boxer making the move over and now jaedong talking about it? Point is that it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You can play and surely enjoy playing any game you like. Why do you have to have a pro scene to back it up? I love playing the star wars version of age of empires, battle grounds or whatever the name is. I promise there's no pro scene to that. never will be but i still damn enjoy it.
On October 04 2010 23:02 wiesel wrote: Also it's impossible to die for Broodwar because it is a legend. And it's legacy can never be killed or matched. Even if all pro would suddenly quit in korea, Bw will still be THE legend
Well clearly you're using a very different and strange definition of 'dead'.
On October 04 2010 22:44 Comrade wrote: Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.?
Yeah we call them hipsters. Boxer making the move over and now jaedong talking about it? Point is that it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You can play and surely enjoy playing any game you like. Why do you have to have a pro scene to back it up? I love playing the star wars version of age of empires, battle grounds or whatever the name is. I promise there's no pro scene to that. never will be but i still damn enjoy it.
If you really dont care about the pro-scene then i believe you have come to the wrong thread. Hell you probably even come to the wrong forums.. This place is ridden with people who watch and enjoy pro-scene, fyi..
Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.?
Yeah we call them hipsters.
No wonder BW is dying when the fanbase has been reduced to that above, ignorance at its finest, name calling and outright lying just to make SC2 look bad. Yea Blizzard charged 60$ for SC2 and will do so for the next 2 expansions?!
Hipsters? Son you dont even have a clue what that means do you? Hipsters dont play RTS games, the idea is absurd its calling wannabe gangstas fanboys of vollyball or some crap like that
I just cannot believe how ignorance is allowed on TL like this anymore, i guess the mods really have their hands full lately and stuff like this just slides.
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
Edit: Added more.
Just for Ksyper and rick-dmg i want to post this here from another thread started by the OP as well (read this post and the OP's post).
I don't know if this really says anything but check out the tournament section of BW... "Show last 14 days" shows these threads:
[Interview] BRAT_OK after his WCG games WCG 10 StarCraft Match Schedule [R&S] WCG USA 2010 Finals ICC Who is Who Season 14 WCG 2010 Tickets? WCG Live Stream? [OSL] Korean Air OSL 2 Grand Final
Here are the threads in the SC2 tournament section that have been active in the past 14 days also:
Looking at the TL Open Results: Z > T > P > Z ? Gold-Silver-Bronze Starcraft 2 Tournament #2 [2v1Grudgematch]CheAse vs 2 duchebags [UK&Ire]UK ESL Pro Series TriStar Open SC2 Tournament Phoenix, AZ Gamereplays.org Custom Maps Tournament Global Gamers Invite: Episode 2 Mercenary Camp #2 SC2Toronto LAN HiTRetz StarCraft 2 Edmonton,Alberta Tournament October 23 [GSL] Open S1 - Grand Finals European Novice Cup #3 Pegasus Cup Introduction of Gisado's Korean KOTH Competo Starcraft 2 Cup #8 VT Gaming Community Open! CanerasCam Open Tournament #2 Pro King of the Hill on iCCup TV - Official Thread Undeniable Tournament #6 [Update] MLG DC SC2 Passes and Rules SCV Ready - Cash Cup #2 Fr4gGie Big T Brawl Stay Alive Cup #5 October 6th > FearTHeFrO ZOWIE European Novice Cup #4 StarSwinger HLParty League Hjalte [EU] ZOWIE GEAR EuroCup Rutternation #1 Gold-Silver-Bronze Tournament SC II LAN Netherlands, Amsterdam RISING League Special Endrey's Insane FFA Cup! [SEA] WD PSI Storm Finals
And it goes on for another 7 pages.... I mean with the negotiation fiasco the entire professional BW scene looks tenuous at the moment. That coupled with how active sc2 is becoming now, with legendary progamers switching over to it, really does make me worried.
BW will go down in history as a fantastic game, but the player base is eventually going to dwindle down until the game is just that - history. The vast majority of new players will pick up SC2 instead of SC:BW.
I love BW, but I switched over to SC2 because I believe that's where the future is heading. And hey, I think SC2 is pretty great as well!
Same goes for Wc3. Just because of SC2, SC BW and WC3 wont juts drop down dead like that. There're still people having their passion left and goes with where their heart belongs. Forever~
On October 05 2010 05:52 Warrior Madness wrote: I don't know if this really says anything but check out the tournament section of BW... "Show last 14 days" shows these threads:
[Interview] BRAT_OK after his WCG games WCG 10 StarCraft Match Schedule [R&S] WCG USA 2010 Finals ICC Who is Who Season 14 WCG 2010 Tickets? WCG Live Stream? [OSL] Korean Air OSL 2 Grand Final
Here are the threads in the SC2 tournament section that have been active in the past 14 days also:
Looking at the TL Open Results: Z > T > P > Z ? Gold-Silver-Bronze Starcraft 2 Tournament #2 [2v1Grudgematch]CheAse vs 2 duchebags [UK&Ire]UK ESL Pro Series TriStar Open SC2 Tournament Phoenix, AZ Gamereplays.org Custom Maps Tournament Global Gamers Invite: Episode 2 Mercenary Camp #2 SC2Toronto LAN HiTRetz StarCraft 2 Edmonton,Alberta Tournament October 23 [GSL] Open S1 - Grand Finals European Novice Cup #3 Pegasus Cup Introduction of Gisado's Korean KOTH Competo Starcraft 2 Cup #8 VT Gaming Community Open! CanerasCam Open Tournament #2 Pro King of the Hill on iCCup TV - Official Thread Undeniable Tournament #6 [Update] MLG DC SC2 Passes and Rules SCV Ready - Cash Cup #2 Fr4gGie Big T Brawl Stay Alive Cup #5 October 6th > FearTHeFrO ZOWIE European Novice Cup #4 StarSwinger HLParty League Hjalte [EU] ZOWIE GEAR EuroCup Rutternation #1 Gold-Silver-Bronze Tournament SC II LAN Netherlands, Amsterdam RISING League Special Endrey's Insane FFA Cup! [SEA] WD PSI Storm Finals
And it goes on for another 7 pages.... I mean with the negotiation fiasco the entire professional BW scene looks tenuous at the moment. That coupled with how active sc2 is becoming now, with legendary progamers switching over to it, really does make me worried.
As upset as it makes me, I'm starting to realize that the switch to SC2 is inevitable. For anyone who knows what I've posted like on here in the last several months, you'll know I advocate SCBW to the max and have been getting really into the scene lately. The last foray took me into the WCG Grand Finals where I was able to talk to Jaedong and FlaSh (at the afterparties).
Basically, they see SC2 taking off if money keeps being pumped into it (and that may be where sponsors are headed). Once the parent company money dries up, larger companies are actually thinking about sponsoring large leagues. They're already preparing to make their SC2 accounts and start training. Of course they can't SAY this sort of thing on anything that goes public because it would make their teams and sponsors worry, but they know what will have to happen when their contracts run out. I wasn't worried about BW at all until I heard this from them and their coaches. Sorry but the only hope for BW right now is that in GSL2 we end up seeing something of massive, epic, unbelievable fail (like a continuation of the quality of the GSL1 final matches would suffice).
On October 04 2010 22:44 Comrade wrote: Some people prefer not to be a Blizzard fanboy sheep and prefer to not pay $180 for a freaking video game.?
Yeah we call them hipsters. Boxer making the move over and now jaedong talking about it? Point is that it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You can play and surely enjoy playing any game you like. Why do you have to have a pro scene to back it up? I love playing the star wars version of age of empires, battle grounds or whatever the name is. I promise there's no pro scene to that. never will be but i still damn enjoy it.
Uhhhh because i like to watch BW? BW proscene truly is a sport to me. I root for Samsung Khan. I have favourite players. I get excited and hyped with anticipation when theres epic matchups. I yell when i see pimp plays.
Fuck you.
Well a merry fuck you to you too. I like to watch BW too, the proscene is a sport to me to. def is. But BW had a long run, the switch can't be stopped. What do you want to happen? Answer would be something like Make everyone uninstall and forget about sc2?
Nobody said anything about destroying SC2 or uninstalling it.. Are you jumping to conclusion or are you trying to put words into his mouth?
Again if you would read the OP, it urge BW fans to keep supporting the game rather than to lose hope and/or worry too much about the fate of BW proscene.
As far as i can tell, it is the SC2 people that keep saying to abandon BW, the change is inevitable n stuffs.. And those same people are the ones who said "cant we just coexist?"
EPT
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