Sea: If you use this strategy well, you'll always win against Zerg.
- How does feel to win the first game of the Round out of 8? ▲ I thought I would win with ease because I prepared well, but I realized that the #1 ranked Zerg is indeed different. Nothing like this happened during practice, and I won due to Terran's innate fraudulence. [T/N: implying Terran is imbalanced, so it's fraudulent to use in games.] I will not let my guard down because I won today and I really need to prepare for the next match thoroughly.
- You used a late mechanic strategy. ▲ That's the trend nowadays. If you just use Bionic, you would have to struggle against Zergs who use Defilers well, but if you use Vultures well, you can completely seal away the Defiler so I think it's good. If you use Bionic and switch to Mechanic, it's really difficult for Zerg to face.
- If you have to evaluate the late mechanic strategy ▲ In my opinion, if the Terran has absolute control over the late mechanic strategy, then the Zerg cannot win. If a Terran has really great command over this strategy, there is no way Zerg can win in an average map.
- Did you share your strategy with Light? ▲ Because our styles are completely different, we didn't help each other. However, the Zerg hyungs who helped me practiced complained a bit saying that our strategies were the same.
- You could face Light in the Semifinals. ▲ There's nothing I can do about it now that I"m here. If it's decided to be a team kill match, then I have nothing I could do but play it. But for now, I need to think about the 2nd match of the Round of 8 that is in front of me, and not the semifinals.
- You'll be commentating with Yellow on the All Star games. ▲ I was really surprised after I learned I was commentating with Yellow hyung, and if there's a caster in the middle, I think it'll be really fun. Because Yellow hyung is such an big sunbae [T/N: refers to people with more experience than you on a given field], I'll need to be careful while broadcasting. After I made a mistake during Battle.net Attack, I got a fear of live matches, but I'll over come that using this opportunity to show you an entertaining commentary.
- You must be very disappointed about being eliminated from the Post Season ▲ It's nice to be able to concentrate on one thing. While I'm sad that we were eliminated, but it's all in the past and there's nothing you can do about it. My plan is to concentrate on the MSL.
- Are you disappointed about being eliminated from the WCG? ▲ While I would like to catch all three rabbits, I think my weakness recently is my Terran match. I need to practice my Terran match up but I'm worried because I don't have enough time. I don't want to play against a Terran, but if I get to the semifinals, I'm worried because I may have to play against Light.
- Anything else you want to say? ▲ Peace hyung gave up his life as a progamer due to school and the army. I'm sad because it feels like Peace hyung just came and went only struggling and never seeing the light of day. Peace hyung, Saint hyung, and I were planning on going to Europe for a trip during the stove league [T/N: Off season], and I would really like to go. I hope Peace hyung will always stay healthy and be happy.
People dont seem to remember when mutalikes+overlord stacking was first use. Everybody was screaming IMBA OMFG IMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!111111
It was really strong, but eventually a way to play with it was found and now its just standard. Even tho now late mech seems very hard, (flash vs zero 4ex) eventually someone will find a way to fight it.
- How does feel to win the first game of best out of 8? ▲ I thought I would win with ease because I prepared well, but I realized that the #1 ranked Zerg is indeed different. Nothing like this happened during practice, and I won due to Terran's innate fraudulence. [T/N: implying Terran is imbalanced, so it's fraudulent to use in games.] I will not let my guard down because I won today and I really need to prepare for the next match thoroughly.
Shouldn't that be How does it feel to win the first game in the Round of 8? Or should it be how does it feel to win the first game of the best of 5?
On August 06 2010 07:58 SkelA wrote: I can only hope that anyone from JD/Effort gonna win their Bo5 because 3 tvt in a row will be really boring.
An all-Terran semifinal is still better than an all-Zerg semifinal the MSL used to have.
No its not, i'd rather have zvz since it doesn't happen as often as tvt and its more exciting because of the intense micro and extreme multi tasking
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Swarm season was LITTERED with ZvZ, and it was incredibly boring. >_< ZvZ is only fun to watch when it's with good players and rare. When it becomes Kwanro vs Calm for the final of a starleague... ugh, then you kind of HAVE to hate it because there are 5 better matchups for a final.
That aside, I hope JD gives us his usual LWWW. And I hope he pulls off some sick play to show the counter to this bio-mech style. Unfortunately, I don't have that much confidence even in JD's ZvT these days. :'(
Swarm season was LITTERED with ZvZ, and it was incredibly boring. >_< ZvZ is only fun to watch when it's with good players and rare. When it becomes Kwanro vs Calm for the final of a starleague... ugh, then you kind of HAVE to hate it because there are 5 better matchups for a final. (
Calm vs. Kwanro was an awesome final, had 12 hatch > 5 pool . Haters gonna hate.
Swarm season was LITTERED with ZvZ, and it was incredibly boring. >_< ZvZ is only fun to watch when it's with good players and rare. When it becomes Kwanro vs Calm for the final of a starleague... ugh, then you kind of HAVE to hate it because there are 5 better matchups for a final. (
Calm vs. Kwanro was an awesome final, had 12 hatch > 5 pool . Haters gonna hate.
That doesn't justify the fact that KWANRO was in a final. I'm also not an STX fan so seeing Calm win wasn't a very big deal for me.
Swarm season was LITTERED with ZvZ, and it was incredibly boring. >_< ZvZ is only fun to watch when it's with good players and rare. When it becomes Kwanro vs Calm for the final of a starleague... ugh, then you kind of HAVE to hate it because there are 5 better matchups for a final. (
Calm vs. Kwanro was an awesome final, had 12 hatch > 5 pool . Haters gonna hate.
That doesn't justify the fact that KWANRO was in a final. I'm also not an STX fan so seeing Calm win wasn't a very big deal for me.
I always thought that the quality of the games was more important than the names of the people playing
On August 06 2010 10:44 chongu wrote: So which terran player started using this bio transition to mech play? was is Flash or Fantasy? (the earliest game i can think of was zero vs fantasy)
this thread, which appears well-researched, also came up with zero vs fantasy
On August 06 2010 10:44 chongu wrote: So which terran player started using this bio transition to mech play? was is Flash or Fantasy? (the earliest game i can think of was zero vs fantasy)
this thread, which appears well-researched, also came up with zero vs fantasy
Flash vs. Calm on Bloodspot predates it by ten days.
Actually, if you looked hard enough, you could probably find similar games going way way back. Just by memory, Flash beat Savior with it back in his rookie year. (though he didn't start with bio)
People seem to think this is some new strategy, but a mech defense against hivetech seems fairly natural, so I wouldn't be surprised if it has probably been around forever to some degree, but it's tough to make that transition. Polaris Rhapsody has proven to be a pretty good map for it, but I don't think its really unbeatable like a lot of people think. "Jaedong lost?! It must be because of this dumb imba mech strat, not because he was outplayed!"
On August 06 2010 10:44 bearbuddy wrote: Flash has revolutionized terran again. The build is so good that the terran doesn't even have to push into the enemy's half of the map to win.
- If you have to evaluate the late mechanic strategy ▲ In my opinion, if the Terran has absolute control over the late mechanic strategy, then the Zerg cannot win. If a Terran has really great command over this strategy, there is no way Zerg can win in an average map.
The TL terran fans who keep trying to say that this strategy is easy to beat ('just go QUEENS and GUARDIANS!') should listen to Sea- he actually knows what he's talking about.
On August 06 2010 10:44 chongu wrote: So which terran player started using this bio transition to mech play? was is Flash or Fantasy? (the earliest game i can think of was zero vs fantasy)
this thread, which appears well-researched, also came up with zero vs fantasy
Flash vs. Calm on Bloodspot predates it by ten days.
Actually, if you looked hard enough, you could probably find similar games going way way back. Just by memory, Flash beat Savior with it back in his rookie year. (though he didn't start with bio)
People seem to think this is some new strategy, but a mech defense against hivetech seems fairly natural, so I wouldn't be surprised if it has probably been around forever to some degree, but it's tough to make that transition. Polaris Rhapsody has proven to be a pretty good map for it, but I don't think its really unbeatable like a lot of people think. "Jaedong lost?! It must be because of this dumb imba mech strat, not because he was outplayed!"
The Flash vs Calm game isn't the bio --> mech strat, its just flash turtling and going bio with a ton of tanks. MnM was still being produced and used as part of the central army for the whole game.
And the Flash vs savior game is just straight up mech.
On August 06 2010 07:58 SkelA wrote: I can only hope that anyone from JD/Effort gonna win their Bo5 because 3 tvt in a row will be really boring.
An all-Terran semifinal is still better than an all-Zerg semifinal the MSL used to have.
Only people with tremendous time on their hands believe this.
I'd rather have a long finals then one with gameplay totally up to under an hour.
seconded.
I think the difference is that ZvZ games (Clam vs Pikachu lol) are so short that people just instantly forget about how bad they were. On the other hand, if there's a bad TvT game, everyone will remember it for how long it wasted their time. As a result, people only come to hate TvT... which is deserved, in that sense.
To me, this strategy seems imba simply because a human being cannot multi-task fast enough to break late-game mech terran. If one sides just has to lay mines, seige tanks, build turrets and turtles, while the other side needs to a-move his army, drop on top of tanks, cast swarm, bury lurkers, etc. etc. etc., then obviously zerg is at a huge disadvantage.
The usual short term counter to any strategy seems to be a timing attack. I think zergs will find the timing window when the terran's tech switch and try something at that time. But after the bio-mech defense is fully set up, I think it's pretty difficult to beat a terran with great control(ala Sea, Light, Flash, etc.)
Oh Sea you, you're such a cutie. <3 Interesting stuff here... the discussion revolving around the strat - but I'm just going to avoid this and add a little more fanboy to the thread.
Sad to see another Progamer leaving the scene... Well, Peace was really struggling in nearly every broadcasted game, but i wish him the best of luck for his future... although I never noticed him that much.
I'm suprised Sea basically called the strat (and terran) imba. There shouldn't be a strat that you'll win with no matter what if you do a few things right.
Oh well. He played well. JD played average. It isn't over yet.
On August 06 2010 12:41 5unrise wrote: At least Sea admits this strategy is imba, unlike the rest of the Terrans who vehemently denies this like their life depends on it.
Flash tried the Strategey 3 times in the last 3 games last osl finals, and didnt win a single time. nuff said.
On August 06 2010 12:41 5unrise wrote: At least Sea admits this strategy is imba, unlike the rest of the Terrans who vehemently denies this like their life depends on it.
Flash tried the Strategey 3 times in the last 3 games last osl finals, and didnt win a single time. nuff said.
Terran fans got TvZ figured out. Either it goes to the late game where a terran with good control can't lose on an avarage map. Or the zerg finishes it before that, and then he is a skill less noob who only robbed the terran who is in fact much better.
On August 06 2010 10:44 chongu wrote: So which terran player started using this bio transition to mech play? was is Flash or Fantasy? (the earliest game i can think of was zero vs fantasy)
this thread, which appears well-researched, also came up with zero vs fantasy
Flash vs. Calm on Bloodspot predates it by ten days.
Actually, if you looked hard enough, you could probably find similar games going way way back. Just by memory, Flash beat Savior with it back in his rookie year. (though he didn't start with bio)
People seem to think this is some new strategy, but a mech defense against hivetech seems fairly natural, so I wouldn't be surprised if it has probably been around forever to some degree, but it's tough to make that transition. Polaris Rhapsody has proven to be a pretty good map for it, but I don't think its really unbeatable like a lot of people think. "Jaedong lost?! It must be because of this dumb imba mech strat, not because he was outplayed!"
You can actually go back even further. The ToT)Twisted( vs Assem game on Luna had Assem transitioning from bio to mech (Yosh did it a lot as well). The idea isn't new but the execution and refinement of the style is.
On August 06 2010 07:50 MadJack wrote: People dont seem to remember when mutalikes+overlord stacking was first use. Everybody was screaming IMBA OMFG IMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!111111
It was really strong, but eventually a way to play with it was found and now its just standard. Even tho now late mech seems very hard, (flash vs zero 4ex) eventually someone will find a way to fight it.
Someone may find a way to fight it. Saying that someone will find a way is just silly speculation.
Although I was certainly disappointed with the match, I don't think JD could have played much better. Just like someone said already, the relative multitasking demands on the zerg player to beat this strat are huge. Still, that doesn't warrant the attitude some players have, that the matchup is totally imba and can't be fixed. It certainly can - it's called fixing the maps.
Actually JD nearly broke Sea's main at ~16 min mark, even after the horrible failed attack into Sea's tank line at 8 just 3-4 mins earlier. If JD had just countered into Sea's main back then while he still had like 10-12 lurkers + decent hydra force, he might've been able to win right there.
Mech does seem pretty ridiculous to fight late game though as Zerg.
Cool, we now know for sure that Flash still had a good chance of winning Game 3 in the MSL finals against JD. He said so in an interview, and everything a progamer says in an interview is the absolute truth, right?
On August 07 2010 03:17 Holgerius wrote: Cool, we now know for sure that Flash still had a good chance of winning Game 3 in the MSL finals against JD. He said so in an interview, and everything a progamer says in an interview is the absolute truth, right?
On August 06 2010 10:44 bearbuddy wrote: Flash has revolutionized terran again. The build is so good that the terran doesn't even have to push into the enemy's half of the map to win.
Terrans win without having to do anything!
Madness!
MADNESS? THIS ISnt star2... game isnt imba.. jd just got out played and let sea get key positioning (as sad as i am to admit it )
if he would have been able to hold the top right we mighta had a differnt outcome.. but sea got that amazing high ground + that supply depot + mines everywhere + gols to back up drops and mutas + vessels...
I watched the game and holy crap I was pissed. Jaedong's responded quite well to the bio-> mech strategy compared to other zergs and it still wasn't enough. Polaris Rhapsody didn't do him any favors either.
I think Sea made a mistake in busting it out game 1 though - now the next time they play Jaedong is going to have figured out how to beat it.
On August 06 2010 10:44 chongu wrote: So which terran player started using this bio transition to mech play? was is Flash or Fantasy? (the earliest game i can think of was zero vs fantasy)
this thread, which appears well-researched, also came up with zero vs fantasy
Flash vs. Calm on Bloodspot predates it by ten days.
Actually, if you looked hard enough, you could probably find similar games going way way back. Just by memory, Flash beat Savior with it back in his rookie year. (though he didn't start with bio)
People seem to think this is some new strategy, but a mech defense against hivetech seems fairly natural, so I wouldn't be surprised if it has probably been around forever to some degree, but it's tough to make that transition. Polaris Rhapsody has proven to be a pretty good map for it, but I don't think its really unbeatable like a lot of people think. "Jaedong lost?! It must be because of this dumb imba mech strat, not because he was outplayed!"
You can actually go back even further. The ToT)Twisted( vs Assem game on Luna had Assem transitioning from bio to mech (Yosh did it a lot as well). The idea isn't new but the execution and refinement of the style is.
Fantasy, however, was the first to claim that bio to mech transition as a viable build against Zerg. He even named it as "Demechanic" or something and even emphasized this build was of his own making. I remember everybody making a big fuss of it because his wordings made it seem as if he is saying every single one of his builds other than the bio to mech build was made by Oov.
I personally found this Sea v.s. Jaedong to be significantly less frustrating than Flash v.s. Zero. Sea at least made the attempt to attack and harass. Flash sat on 108 turrets and 100 tanks throughout the entire game and won it LITERALLY without making a single push. Even Flash's attempt to take Zero's 1 o'clock was done by building turrets first at its entrance, setting up tanks and waiting for Zero to attack it.
The only good thing that I can think of this new trend is that Fantasy's TvZ is finally on the rise. Maybe it will hit 60% one day and nobody will be able to deny his status as a S-class.
On August 07 2010 03:17 Holgerius wrote: Cool, we now know for sure that Flash still had a good chance of winning Game 3 in the MSL finals against JD. He said so in an interview, and everything a progamer says in an interview is the absolute truth, right?
theres a biiiiig difference between saying 'hey, i didnt lose the game yet, i was still in it' compared to 'if the terran does this and this, the zerg has no chance.' every progamer blusters and says shit about not counting them out
On August 07 2010 03:17 Holgerius wrote: Cool, we now know for sure that Flash still had a good chance of winning Game 3 in the MSL finals against JD. He said so in an interview, and everything a progamer says in an interview is the absolute truth, right?
One interview came from a frustrated player who lost the series due to forces beyond his control.
This interview came from a gamer who may have practiced hundreds of games that all pretty much had the same outcome. Surly you can see where the argument is coming from here. Sea's opinion was based upon a large sample of games that according to him ended with much less resistance than the one that came from Jaedong, and his tone of confidence implied that his zerg practice partners couldn't come up with any clear cut answers even though they knew what was coming.
Don't throw in cheap arguments just for the sake of doing so.
On August 07 2010 03:17 Holgerius wrote: Cool, we now know for sure that Flash still had a good chance of winning Game 3 in the MSL finals against JD. He said so in an interview, and everything a progamer says in an interview is the absolute truth, right?
The difference here being that Flash spoke in favor of himself, while Sea speaks in favor of his opponent.
The sad part is that Sea can't win the MSL anyway...he even said that his TvT sucks right now...since he will face against either Flash or Fantasy in the final...both are TvT monsters.
EPT
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