EPTIs this lack of reavers hurting Protoss? Or is there some other reason why Zergs have been dominating Tosses in pro play recently?
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Skipping Reavers in Mid/Late Game PvZ?
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
Is this lack of reavers hurting Protoss? Or is there some other reason why Zergs have been dominating Tosses in pro play recently? VODs: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
but i guess they are skipping cos they are afraid of it getting sniped... i love seeing/using reavers in pvzs tho..they are a great backbone to the whole toss ball. | ||
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jackofclubs81
United States196 Posts
My 2 cents. | ||
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HeadhunteR
Argentina1258 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
for pros i pressume it depends mostly on how comfortable they feel with reavers, movie is the prime example for mixing in reavers from the early midgame on i think. | ||
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shalafi
394 Posts
And yes, I think that P is failing nowadays because they don't exploit their units enough. Both vsT and Z they're playing standardized and safe builds that their opponents know how to counter. When was the last time that you saw a properly executed early reaver vs T? I saw them every game when I started to watch BW, but it's hard to see now >_>. They all fast tech to Arbiters : / | ||
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k.taeyang
Peru145 Posts
I once did a PvZ of 30 minutes long, and I can tell that 4 reavers in two shuttles RAPE and destroy THE SWARM, I was so in the lead that I MC a defiler and protected the reavers and protoss ball from Muta Snipe. | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On June 08 2010 12:00 writer22816 wrote: Always wondered why Protoss players don't use reavers more in PvZ . Stork (among others) used them to really good effect. I don't really remember Stork using a lot of reavers in PvZ, honestly. In fact, I remember him being chided for not using reavers enough in almost every key PvZ series he was in during starleagues, especially late in games. Hell, Stork is actually a good example to back up the OP's point in the last few weeks. Against hero he didn't use them despite being epically lurker contained all game, and vs SKT's soo he was both being contained at his natural while having expansions he could have saved with reavers but decided to build 30 cannons instead (and then get arbiter tech..). As for general reaver use, Kal used them to decent effect in his recent game with Shine (despite losing). They got sniped by mutas, but so do templar unless you get off a good maelstrom. Other than that, I'll attribute a part of the lack of reavers to the fact that free hasn't played a PvZ in what seems like forever, and that overall corsair/reaver has been limited in effectiveness since the time of Kang Min. That, and maps that are more difficult to cover without using a lot of harass have gone out of style. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On June 08 2010 12:29 k.taeyang wrote: Man... I don't know much about Late game fight, because most of my PvZ ends just before mid-game. I once did a PvZ of 30 minutes long, and I can tell that 4 reavers in two shuttles RAPE and destroy THE SWARM, I was so in the lead that I MC a defiler and protected the reavers and protoss ball from Muta Snipe. Oh man MCing defilers to protect your reavers... This sounds like GGPlay vs Stork o.o That game was the lulz. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 08 2010 16:23 QibingZero wrote: I don't really remember Stork using a lot of reavers in PvZ, honestly. In fact, I remember him being chided for not using reavers enough in almost every key PvZ series he was in during starleagues, especially late in games. Hell, Stork is actually a good example to back up the OP's point in the last few weeks. Against hero he didn't use them despite being epically lurker contained all game, and vs SKT's soo he was both being contained at his natural while having expansions he could have saved with reavers but decided to build 30 cannons instead (and then get arbiter tech..). As for general reaver use, Kal used them to decent effect in his recent game with Shine (despite losing). They got sniped by mutas, but so do templar unless you get off a good maelstrom. Other than that, I'll attribute a part of the lack of reavers to the fact that free hasn't played a PvZ in what seems like forever, and that overall corsair/reaver has been limited in effectiveness since the time of Kang Min. That, and maps that are more difficult to cover without using a lot of harass have gone out of style. Uhhh, Stork was pretty much known for his godly sair/reaver, although that was mostly a few years ago. Then again, he sort of revived it on maps like outsider, fighting spirit, and even matchpoint by using zealots to block off the choke at the 3rd. It was his "new pvz management strategy" that he mentioned an interview a while back. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On June 08 2010 16:41 De4ngus wrote: Uhhh, Stork was pretty much known for his godly sair/reaver, although that was mostly a few years ago. Then again, he sort of revived it on maps like outsider, fighting spirit, and even matchpoint by using zealots to block off the choke at the 3rd. It was his "new pvz management strategy" that he mentioned an interview a while back. I honestly can't think of a time when Stork was known for anything in PvZ other than some intense long games that he pulled out. Even going back a few years, his shuttle and sair/reaver play was vastly inferior to Bisu's, and his PvZ was a crutch in just about every starleague he was in. I do remember him using corsairs a lot on Outsider (and every protoss who won on the map did), but out of the few games he even touched reavers, the only one that comes to mind is the one where he demolished Yellow, who hadn't won a PL game in 2 years at that point. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
On June 08 2010 11:46 Katsuge wrote: imo reavers are the most important units in mid-game pvz...they rape z so hard. but i guess they are skipping cos they are afraid of it getting sniped... i love seeing/using reavers in pvzs tho..they are a great backbone to the whole toss ball. I have played P for like four years and I have almost never made reaver in late game..Reading this post I am starting to understand why I sucked so much in that match up XD | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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Aesop
Hungary11291 Posts
On the other hand, Reavers need to be carried around, unloaded, shepherded, if scourge hit the shuttle, they are gone instantly. Not including Reavers, I would wager, means avoiding the hazzle, not making a conscious strategic choice. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On June 08 2010 12:30 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah reavers should do splash damage to their own units like siege tanks dumbest thing i heard today .. do you know how hard it is to micro control reaver, and the shots cost minerals?? unlike siege tanks, they are worthless if not micro'd and not just simple micro .. these guys are the hardest thing to control in game. they dont use reavers because the tech is expensive, and you need to have shuttles for them, unlike HTs, where shuttles are not needed. mutalisk and scourge are the bane of shuttles and reavers .. lastly they can be good late game but not mid game .. especially for camping tosses .. | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
On June 08 2010 21:20 aimaimaim wrote: dumbest thing i heard today .. do you know how hard it is to micro control reaver, and the shots cost minerals?? unlike siege tanks, they are worthless if not micro'd and not just simple micro .. these guys are the hardest thing to control in game. they dont use reavers because the tech is expensive, and you need to have shuttles for them, unlike HTs, where shuttles are not needed. mutalisk and scourge are the bane of shuttles and reavers .. lastly they can be good late game but not mid game .. especially for camping tosses .. and that was the dumbest thing ive heard all day | ||
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ImaginationStation
Korea (South)25 Posts
On June 08 2010 21:29 JohnColtrane wrote: and that was the dumbest thing ive heard all day Well, his post (though not perfect) made a lot more sense than yours, unless you were trolling. | ||
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TheMute
United States458 Posts
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
On June 08 2010 21:57 ImaginationStation wrote: Well, his post (though not perfect) made a lot more sense than yours, unless you were trolling. sair reaver is ridiculous and im not even a zerg player. with proper control, like 2 shuttles full of reavers and an army of sairs + dweb is just so overpowered and mobile. late game toss with a robo bay at their 4th or whatever and 2 reavers = zerg cant even touch it, and reavers included in armies are just monstrous against any ground unit zerg have | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
 Jaehoon vs  RorO for an example of why a reaver-heavy army isn't often used. Namely, the moment where Jaehoon gets 3 shuttles with 6 reavers in them caught out of position by scourge and is forced to drop all the reavers in the middle of the zerg army (and lose the entire backbone of his main army). It's just so fragile, and when you add it to everything else you have to do lategame, it's really hard to manage. | ||
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Confuse
2238 Posts
On June 09 2010 02:29 matjlav wrote: You can watch Jaehoon vs RorO for an example of why a reaver-heavy army isn't often used. Namely, the moment where Jaehoon gets 3 shuttles with 6 reavers in them caught out of position by scourge and is forced to drop all the reavers in the middle of the zerg army (and lose the entire backbone of his main army). It's just so fragile, and when you add it to everything else you have to do lategame, it's really hard to manage.There are examples for both sides of course... Stork vs Hogil OSL last season comes to mind. I'm sure they practiced with reavers on said maps for proleague and came to the conclusion that for some reason they wouldn't be as effective as the standard gateway armies... but why? in the game with Stork recently where he got resource blocked, it seems to me that he could have used reavers to break past the bridge area. Any speculation on this? he wouldn't need a shuttle to slowly inch out of his base even... I think speculating on why these decisions were made is the point of these threads. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 08 2010 16:34 flamewheel wrote: Oh man MCing defilers to protect your reavers... This sounds like GGPlay vs Stork o.o That game was the lulz. Watch this replay http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1749 Mondragon vs Infernal, gods among men in this match up. On June 08 2010 12:30 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah reavers should do splash damage to their own units like siege tanks Yes, but instead of them taking damage from the splash, I think all Protoss units should absorb the scarab energy and heal themselves. | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On June 08 2010 22:50 JohnColtrane wrote: sair reaver is ridiculous and im not even a zerg player. with proper control, like 2 shuttles full of reavers and an army of sairs + dweb is just so overpowered and mobile. late game toss with a robo bay at their 4th or whatever and 2 reavers = zerg cant even touch it, and reavers included in armies are just monstrous against any ground unit zerg have cya~ | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On June 08 2010 22:50 JohnColtrane wrote: sair reaver is ridiculous and im not even a zerg player. with proper control, like 2 shuttles full of reavers and an army of sairs + dweb is just so overpowered and mobile. late game toss with a robo bay at their 4th or whatever and 2 reavers = zerg cant even touch it, and reavers included in armies are just monstrous against any ground unit zerg have Using sair-reaver properly is to some extent, pretty comparable to using 2port wraiths well. Only the best of the best are able to have the multitasking ability to really use it well and even they don't use the build anymore as Zergs have gotten so good at playing against it. | ||
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MageKirby
United States535 Posts
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
i have never used reavers my apm is not good enough :{ | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On June 08 2010 12:30 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah reavers should do splash damage to their own units like siege tanks I assume you are trolling, if not... 1.Scarabs cost minerals 2.Scarabs don't hit instantly, they have to travel and can be obstructed 3.Scarabs have to be manually replenished 4.Scarabs don't always hit 5.Reavers have less range than tanks 6.Reavers require a tech of their own 7.Reavers are already more expensive than tanks 8.They generally require a shuttle This is why they should not do splash damage to their own units like tanks do. They would suck. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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