EPTare hotkeys really that great? - Page 4
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 15 2004 03:29 Hautamaki wrote: Hotkey gateways to produce units in the middle of the battle? Who are you kidding? If you're building units in the middle of the battle you obviously arent controlling your units so you might as well not be looking at them either. Are you serious? This is one of the biggest problems I see newbies having... they'll sit there and do nothing but watch their units, so that by the time they're killed, they have 2k resources and no units. It is essential that you keep producing units, even while microing fights, especially during, say, TvZ for example, when infantry builds so fast anyways, or as Drone said, if you're Zeal rushing, you MUST hotkey, or you're going to lose. | ||
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
some ppl say u cant get above 100 apm without hotkeys. some say 120. some 130, 140, 150. some 170. some 180. some 200. some 220. 230. 240. right now i can personally envision playing 240 with no hotkeys. sure, it would take 10 hrs a day or wahtever, but thats what i see as possible. i used to think it was 140, then 150.. so dont be so quick to conclude that whatever you do is the fastests. look at boxer's mouse :| when i read this thread i think i can tell which of you have never seen a first person vod or watched with lasgo observer pack :| not carefully enough anyways | ||
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Toff
Norway309 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28682 Posts
I played without buildings hotkeyed for 5 years or so. and I was a good player then as well, because I was good at playing without them hotkeyed and I had found a style that suited that kind of playing well. but I improved sooooo much when I started hotkeying them and got accustomed to that instead, and I don't see any reason why other people would not improve in the same way I did. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
With protoss, a few seonds delay of not watching your units wont kill them, but if you're terran, and you have a bunch of marines, and yo'ure clicking on the minimap as opposed to 11 or 22, you'll lose all of your rines in that milisecond difference. Second, I dont' think that you're really familiar with hotkeys ( as you dont really have to), so its kind of awkard (and everyone has it awkward at first). I play piano (Chopin etudes, etc), so I guess it wasn't that hard for me to pick up hotkeying, and I find it invaluable, being a Terran user, there is no way I could target probes, mine as much, if I couldn't do 3t4t5t6v7v8v (which is about 2 seconds, and even so I can still micro vultures). I can 1a2a3a4a5a as fast / faster than NaDa (in chat window, etc), so I guess its easier for me, but you really have to try them for a while to realize their full benefit. When you can move your ENTIRE protoss army as a whole green cloud of death, then you'll truly appreciate your skill of doing 1a2a3a4a5a in 1 second -_--'''' | ||
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koehli
Germany350 Posts
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radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
 ) I always have to be careful when building factories or any construction buildings - all have to be within one screen of reach, ensures fastest unit production for me (using F2), cause pressing 5t6t8t8t9t once I have to really have to micro is impossible for me. I have a mental block or something. Before what I used to do was F2 for production and F3 for battle. That way I keep switching position of F3 all the time, and hoppin from F2 to F3. I sorta put the battle 'on hold', macro, then go back to the battle that looks more or less exactly how I left it. Now I have to go back through unit hotkeys/minimap, and that's not too fun/fast cause the screen position changes.. >_<And seeing Enough dance hydra while macroing like a whore is beautiful. He spawns from 3 hats while hydras are moving, and he is done before they take a second step; all the while nearly perfectly dodging storms, fighting DTs and avoiding Zealot surround with 3+ hotkeys of hydra >_< insanity.. I wish I could do that | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On April 15 2004 03:29 Hautamaki wrote: I still use hotkeys for a lot of stuff. I hotkey shuttles and carriers of course. I also hotkey my scouting probe of course. And, I also hotkey my first 12 units, be they rushing zealots vs toss or zerg, or my first set of goons vs terran. It's the other situations that I was talking about that hotkeys are pointless in. For example, why hotkey nexus to produce probes? You can always go back to your nexus by pressing space key. If I hotkey my nexus to 0, I never use it anyways. Hotkey gateways to produce units in the middle of the battle? Who are you kidding? If you're building units in the middle of the battle you obviously arent controlling your units so you might as well not be looking at them either. I can click my minimap to go to my gates and select them and press the keyboard shortcut, and then press space bar to go back to the fight, than you can press 1-z 2-d 3-z 4-k etc, I guarantee it. What's the point of hotkeying only a half or a quarter of your gates anyways? If you aren't going to use them all, why even build them? When I go to build something, I do it with all my gates. And Wax, when you call me slow, are you referring to my low apm? APM means nothing, what matters is how quickly you accomplish tasks. I accomplish the same number of tasks as you, I just use fewer clicks because I'm not wasting time setting hotkeys and cycling through them. Personally I'd say I'm faster than you, despite having lower apm. I think the pvp games that we play, where I consistantly outharass you, bear me out on that score. Amat I use both hands of course, in fact I use my hands far more equally than more people. I'd say that most of you are the one handed players, because you do so much more with your keyboard than you need to. Hautamaki, I've watched your replays and visited your SC Shrine. Good work. Now from what I've seen from your replays and what you talk about, you lack something. That thing is speed. You are slower than what you think you are. I remember you writing that you are a very good gamer. I think that you are just a above average gamer. [ I'm pretty sure ] on that little player rating thing. From newb to true gosu. Something like that, I haven't been to it in a while. I'm not talking about your APM, your speed overall. While we're talking about APM, I'll tell you right now, you are wrong, APM has some to do with your speed. Not zero as you stated in the above quote. Of course your APM doesn't prove how fast you do things, but the speed you do things is R-E-F-L-E-C-T-E-D in your APM, therefore if you're slow, your APM will be lower. [ Obviously right? ] What is your definition of fast, and how can someone be faster than someone else even if they have lower APM? Does that mean someone who has 200 APM can be faster than Boxer who gets up to 350 APM? Hell no, right? Yes, there is a certain ratio in which APM doesn't have anything to do with speed, but your overall speed IS part of your APM. Also a really weird statement you made is that you don't need to make probes during the middle of a battle, and if you do that you are not concentrating and might as well not look. Though I think of you as an above average gamer, that statement is really NEWBIE. You cannot tell me that every half second of battle you are constantly clicking and moving units around. If you did that, there would be no point to micro. The whole point is called = MACRO. Yes MACRO the thing that you so explained on your website. This is the situation so I can better show it to you. Small Battle: 6 Goons vs 16 lings. [ Your nexus is hotkeyed 5 ] [ Goon group is hotkeyed 1 ] They coming running at you, this is when the battle starts, presume you have range and your goon opens up to take it's first shot. Freeze frame right there. Right when it opens to shoot, you noticed you have something like 300 minerals. That's when you press '5' and then 'p' very quickly to build the probe. Then you press '1' I guarantee you if you aren't new at hotkeys, doing all that will take less than one actual second. '5' 'p' '1' Then you can move back, shoot, move back shoot, move back [ Then press 5 to check on the progress of your probe to see if you need to build another one ] shoot, move back. Large battle: 20 Goons + 2 Templars with energy for 2 storms vs 30 Hydras and swarm. You approach hydras, you stop just out of their range. Again '5' 'p' '1'. 1 so you can reselect your group. Then you storm the group of hydras, they come after you, you micro your templars back away from concentrated fire. Then move your goons around. He casts swarm, you back away. '5' 'p' '1' then you storm, move back again and repeat. That is why. If you think all of this is impossible or unlogical, you are simply too slow. | ||
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33426 Posts
players like boxer can micro every single second of the battle, and not macro at all it can make or break games, for boxer it's won him his share of games, and lost him some too -_- | ||
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Loophole
United States867 Posts
I disagree that it's not usefull to hotkey your units though. If I have three or four groups of units hotkeyed, when I want them to move somewhere, I can do it fast, with little reaction time. I can make sure every single unit gets the command. If you drag a box around units, you will miss some strays, or you will get more than 12 units inside the box sometimes, and they will remain unselected. Here's a good example of something you couldn't do without hotkeys. Your obs sees a terran opponent moving out of his base. you want to flank him. without ever even moving your view screen, you can set up the flank using the minimap alone. You never have to even look at your troops, they aren't engaged in battle yet, but you can position them perfectly for the flank. If the units weren't hotkeyed, you'd have to click on the minimap, drag select a group, click on the minimap again, drag select, click minimap, etc. With the hotkeys, my mouse never even has to leave the minimap area. It's practically instantaneous. I usually only hotkey 3 - 4 groups of ground units, because they are close enough to the A key to make attack move no problem. | ||
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SinJiTerran
Korea (South)42 Posts
90 apm + no hotcley gl for kill some good player haha | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 15 2004 11:30 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: its pretty fucking simple to right click then press 1z, select ur guys, right click again, press 2z, etc. i see pp do it all the time.. as long as you can keep an eye on your units you will see when is a good time to produce a unit or two some ppl say u cant get above 100 apm without hotkeys. some say 120. some 130, 140, 150. some 170. some 180. some 200. some 220. 230. 240. right now i can personally envision playing 240 with no hotkeys. sure, it would take 10 hrs a day or wahtever, but thats what i see as possible. i used to think it was 140, then 150.. so dont be so quick to conclude that whatever you do is the fastests. look at boxer's mouse :| when i read this thread i think i can tell which of you have never seen a first person vod or watched with lasgo observer pack :| not carefully enough anyways I would like to state that I can get 180apm with less than 5% hotkey  | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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scrapperdog
United States779 Posts
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
When it comes to controlling armies, you cannot use attack move shortcut when you're selecting your army with hotkeys. Again, it's a waste of hand movement, because you have to press a number then a letter then a number and so forth. It's the same problem as construction, even Progamers don't bother to attack move, they just use right click move. What the hell, completely wrong! 12 units recalled by hotkey or a selection are the same thing, you can always attack move them. And progamers and us normal gamers usually attack moves when we want the units to kill stuff in the way and move them when we want them to just get wherever the hell we want them to go ... | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
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