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On April 19 2010 09:18 Likkzi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 09:04 skippy2591 wrote:On April 19 2010 08:40 Likkzi wrote:To support my point some more: usually, good micro/scouting/harass saves you units you would lose if you were paying more attention to macro at the cost of things I mentioned before. I also remember some Day[9]'s lecture about  Flash's TvZ, when he pointed out that Terran was very agressive, and by exchanging Marines for Mutalisks (decent micro!) he could keep macroing on lower number of Depots, thus saving some money. But trading troops =! throwing away troops, and newbies most often do the former. In any case, this is way more complicated than it seems to be at first glance. ok, dude, we get ur point, but the question is, do you get ours? Hm, your point was that it's better to macro/select-units/attack-move/macro... than to watch the ensuing battle without doing anything. I agree with that: doing something useful >>> not doing anything, but you know, there are lots of useful things you can do that can't be called 'macro'.
agreed. macro without nneything else (such as micro, or minding unit compostion) will get raped almost every single time when going against other decent players. Hopefully though this would encourage newer players to not only try n do all the cute micro shit they saw their favorite progamers do, but to also mind their macro. This is what if feel is the over arching lesson that i feel Chill was intending to be taught, and i must say that from my 5-6 months of experience playing sc online, i have found this lesson the hardest to learn.
that said, OMG, my micro sucks so bad that i once lost 10 hydras to 1 dt... with an over loard just like 6 pixles out of viz radius!!! >.< (lol)
so yea, i understand that macro alone isn't the answer to winning all games ^^
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its really annoying how everyone's misunderstanding this.
THIS ISNT A TACTIC TO WIN GAMES
this is for practice, and practice for E/D- players at that. at that level, macro truly is everything that's important (aside from rush scenarios)
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That only works for zerg tho.
Toss will send all their units into tanks/mines and suicide.
Terran? Don't get me started unseiged tanks/blind mnm charging = ^_^ ^_^ ^_^
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Run all your army into lurkers, what happened?
I have another army, Ima right into 2 lurkers again...
I have 12 tanks and 25 vultures, ima run into into protoss army unattentioned
I have 12 tanks, I will run into 8 sieged tanks and die.
This so doesn't work for any terran army
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once again i repete for those that may have over looked my earlier post
"I do question why pplz keep saying that this sucks so bad with terrin v nneything. The intent of this tread wazn't to discuss the specifics, but rather introduce the potential benefits that this strategy could build within a player. ultimately, this strategy is trying to reinforce the idea of macro, and other points are welcome, but still, i question why pplz are so determined on saying that this fails for some race in some specific circumstance."
OF course certain circumstance call for diffrent actions, the point of this start is to help newer players/noobish players to mind their macro rather than Stare at dying units. It's obvious that you don't send 50 medic/marine to a zerg expo full of lurks without any scan or any type of science vessle.. u know what, nah, i take that back. seeing as how alot of people are so bent on saying that this won't work unless you want a lurk with 40+ kills, i'll just let you guyz believe that as everyone else sees the true point that chill waz expressing in his SUGGESTION.
Remember, therez a big diffrence between making a mistake and doing somthing retaurtedly stupid; one requires nothing, and the other requires a determination to prove a point.
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On April 19 2010 06:19 hyst.eric.al wrote:
dont try this in TvZ, kids, unless you want your opponent to get 40-kill lurkers
plz tell this to fantasy
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On April 19 2010 11:00 skippy2591 wrote:
once again i repete for those that may have over looked my earlier post
"I do question why pplz keep saying that this sucks so bad with terrin v nneything. u know what, nah, i take that back. seeing as how alot of people are so bent on saying that this won't work unless you want a lurk with 40+ kills, i'll just let you guyz believe that as everyone else sees the true point that chill waz expressing in his SUGGESTION.
Remember, therez a big diffrence between making a mistake and doing somthing retaurtedly stupid; one requires nothing, and the other requires a determination to prove a point.
Your tag says you're from the United States, WTF.
I don't happen to think this is the best method of practice because it doesn't teach you how to macro while multitasking, which is the hard part. Macroing in and of itself is not hard.
Eventually you'll just hit a routine.
And to the person who said they'd rather spam their factories and avoid a 15 second delay than smash their opponents probe line, they've got it wrong, unless that particular timing is very necessary.
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I can't approve this method. For Example, in PvZ you need at least to micro some HT because, without them, you can't win unless your opponent really suck. Pr maube when you mindlessly a move against a field of lurkers. Sure mayb e you will do lots of damage but you will lose lots and lots of zealots. I don't think it is a good way to learn the game.
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On April 19 2010 10:25 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
its really annoying how everyone's misunderstanding this.
THIS ISNT A TACTIC TO WIN GAMES
this is for practice, and practice for E/D- players at that. at that level, macro truly is everything that's important (aside from rush scenarios)
lol you are not heard over the flood of people replying to posts that are replying to posts that are off topic / misconstrue the OP xD
on another note: one time when i was terran against a 3 base super hard turtling zerg (wtf o.O) i macroed mass firebats nonstop and beat defiler / lurk / ultra.
true story.
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works damn well as p.
v terran -> hugeball of lots with some goons 1a2a3a4a5a
v zerg - > hugeball of everything with like 5/6 obs 1a2a3a4a5a
it actually helped me on my macro mechanics
of course the player's a D-.
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Calgary25995 Posts
This isn't a strategy to win games. It's stripping newbs to bare bones so they build on a foundation. I thought that was inherently obvious. 
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This isn't that complicated folks. Obviously A-Moving armies into opponents isn't designed as an actual strategy to win games. I don't even understand why were discussing what MU's this might or might not work in; it's irrelevant.
Its a training excercise for beginners to get them learning the basic fundamentals of the game. In this case macro; having decent macro is paramount, if you opponent is producing twice as much stuff as you, or even 50% as much, even if you micro like Flash you're not going to win. This excercise gets you used to keeping production constant. As both the OP and Chill stated, one of the biggest things total beginners do is sit and watch battles, sometimes do nothing, or doing micro actions that aren't helpful, or just plain overmicroing. This helps break that habit. When you get comfortable with this, then you can start thinking about some of the basic micro actions like sieging tanks, storming, laying mines, lurker burrows, etc.
It's no different than a golf instructor teaching a beginning player a fundamentally sound chipping stroke before doing any full swing stuff. It promotes a solid impact, teaches that a descending blow gets the ball in the air not scooping it or hitting up, and gets the student to lead the shaft into the ball rather than flipping at it.
No,this will not help the student break 180, no it won't guarantee him a fundamentally solid swing. It will however, establish the basics, and ingrain some of the core concepts of a proper swing. The student won't feel the need to try to lift the ball into the air, he'll have a decent initial hinge, and will be used to starting the club back on a good plane with the arms and shoulders working in sequence; in other words, he'll have a good start.
Thats what this idea is for; establishing a good way to ingrain some of the basic concepts of good StarCraft play.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:05 Likkzi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:45 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I think the point of this is not to win, it's for practice and to get better. But it won't make you better! OK, learn to macro this way. And then try to mix it with normal battle issues (harass, defending pressure, positioning, micro, scouting, reactions...). You will almost be forced to learn how to macro from the beginning. The circumstances of standard gameplay are so different from 'Attack-Move' macro games, that it's gonna make your previous practice worthless. (Sorry, maybe not worthless but dubious at least). I'm not saying you can sometimes give up macro and be happy with it. I'm saying you have to learn what is less important in current situation, and thus, what can be postponed a little? Sure, newbies need to work on macro first. But when the alternative is, for example, control 8 Vultures to smash 20 Probes or produce one round of units without 10-15 seconds delay, 'macro choice' isn't obvious anymore. EDIT: This idea might be valid when played on UMS map with enemy doing nothing (no AI script). Just use the clock, make trigger that game ends once you hit 200/200 and then try to reach it within shortest span of time. You will get quite specific information how fast can you gather money and spend it.
The problem is that if you're relatively new to the game "micro" is counterproductive. If you haven't spent the time to learn how to control your vultures, you might end up getting your vultures killed prematurely, moving them when they could have gotten extra kills by sitting there and continuing to fire, or devoting more time to "micro" them than it's worth. Yeah microing your vultures could produce a better outcome, provided you micro your vultures correctly. Lots of low-level players' micro isn't good enough to produce an outcome drastically better than A-moving. Sieging in awkward positions or poor mine placement can be worse than if you didn't siege or place mines at all.
Micro isn't something you can just DO. It's something that has to be learned, and you have to devote time learning it for each unit of the race you're playing, and in some cases, the micro is different depending on which race or unit composition you're playing against. That takes a LOT of time, and at the early stage when you know little to nothing, learning macro is a much better use of one's time.
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What you gotta do is try this pure perfect macro practice while simultaneously trying to obtain 250-300 apm. That way you'll hopefully have a bunch extra hand speed and multitasking ability when you start playing normally again.
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This is an effective exercise to break starcraft down into parts. I think its a good practice. Works better with protoss because you literally can just drag attack move without worrying that much at those levels. I think the goal is to learn to prioritize your macro over everything else. You want your micro to be at the minimum when you're at the lower levels.
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What you gotta do is try this pure perfect macro practice while simultaneously trying to obtain 250-300 apm. That way you'll hopefully have a bunch extra hand speed and multitasking ability when you start playing normally again.
The whole point of the excercise though is to pretty much just watch your gates and nexii; so you wouldn't be training multitask much, as a complete beginner there is no way you have the ability to be looking at various stuff around the map and stuff keep gateways pumping.
Also, to get 300 apm you'd just have to spam 4567 over and over.
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Yeah I fully agree that this doesn't really help with terran because as T, you're the one who has to adapt most of the time so scouting is very important and micro is also so important in both TvP and TvZ, which is the most played matchups by terrans. TvT is just insane mechanics.
Sure it won't win you many games but its a good way to get your macro down right step by step.
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Yeah I fully agree that this doesn't really help with terran because as T, you're the one who has to adapt most of the time so scouting is very important and micro is also so important in both TvP and TvZ, which is the most played matchups by terrans. TvT is just insane mechanics.
I give up. People clearly just don't read the topic and following posts carefully and thoughtfully. This isn't intended to win games, or help players that already have okay mechanics. This is for people that are fairly new and gives them a basic foundation on which they can start to build a decent StarCraft game.
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This was the method I used earlier when I started on ICCUP. Simple logic behind it makes sense...
1) Having bad macro means you have fewer units to micro.
2) Micro is marginally effective. You cannot outmicro your way out of every situation.
3) Putting together 1 & 2, if you have WAY more stuff than your opponent, he'll crumble because of a gap in unit count.
It also makes newer players see the game as a larger picture. Macro-level games means trading and holding bases with regular production. You can make D+/C- in no time with good macro.
I want to chime in that macro includes thinking about unit selection and teching. Theres no use in throwing your units in to die.
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If the idea is to play without an opponent and practice macro, I agree, that is helpful. (I've done it myself.) Pretty much the same idea as practicing a build with no opponent, which is also useful.
I thought the idea though was to focus on pure macro during games, which not only is going to lose you the games in a lot of matchups, but you aren't even going to survive long enough to get any serious macro done, so it's not even helpful as practice. That's where my post was coming from.
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EPT
