|
ok, i recently got done hearing a streem w/ chill and some other dude (sorry other dude, didn't catch ur name) and chill waz giving a macro 101 for new/ noobie sc players.
Chill threw out the idea (and sadly common fact for me) that when most players engage in a battle, they end up starring at the battle insted of doing anything useful- u know, the player attempts to micro, but ends up not microing well, or at all. So what chill suggested that sed player does, or begans doing is to focus strictly on macro for an entire serries of games by doing something that sounded extreemly crazy and impratical (aka noobish). he said do as follows:
1. Focus not on scouting at all for the entire game (assuming its a map like destination or hbr)
2. Focus on not having any idol workers
3. Builld a big ass army
4. Select the entire army and tell it to attack move to the enemy's base
5. DO NOT EVEN LOOK AT THE ATTACKING ARMY EVER AGAIN
6. Build up another big ass army
7. select the entire army and tell it to attack move to the enemy's base
8. DO NOT EVEN LOOK AT THE ATTACKING ARMY EVER AGAIN
9. Continue to do the big ass army thing all while teching, expanding, and building workers & supply as necessary
The idea behind chill's suggestion is that praticing this stategy will give new/newbish players a bare bones foundation on the importance of macro. This foundation is logically built as the player is forced to continue to do all the macro shit and build up their army insted of starring at a huge ass battle between their troops and their enemies troops. Furthere more, because the player is assuming that their big ass army is going to get eaten alive (as it should since it lacks proper micro), that player is begining to wrap their brains around the importance of hardcore macro, and constant unit production in the heat of battle.
Chill's idea sounds great, and i am happy to announce that i have just got done trying it vs the computer (gotta test it offline before i go live) and of course it worked briliantly. I found myself having 3 expands, hive tech, and like a gazillion units all while raping the comps main and expansions with only 86 fuckin apm in and 18 min game... of course the apm isn't really much to brag about (never waz -cough- -cough-) and my cazualty count waz kinda high, but eh, should't we expect that in Z v P nnewayz ? 
To Chill: All in all, i would like to report sucess on the idea, but i kinda can't since i've only tried it once vs the comp. will be trying it out online soon though. ^^
To all the soon to be trools: Yea sure, we all have talked about the importance of micro and macro together, and sure a majority of players that lurk tsl have already found their own way to break their previous noobie mindsets, so plz leave the trool like remarks out of the tread. This thread is only a quick response to chill, and a nice introduction to the idea to those who might want to try it out.
Ps: i would like upload a rep of the game i just played... but I kinda don't know how, and m a lill 2 lazy 2 find out :S
Pss: if this has already been posted, sorry, didn't search yet
|
hotkeying ur buildings will make it easier 
that way u can at least macro a little bit if you are watching the battle
|
It is great advice, there was a discussion in the other thread I'll just quote myself.
"Chill was in no way saying that scouting isn't essential he is simply trying to break the game up for new players and he's 100% right.
I have friends who are really bad and they focus all there attention on "what did he build", "how can I counter that", "what unit mix should I make" when 10 minutes into the game they only have 20 workers.
The BEST advice you can give these people is just what Chill said. Forget scouting, forget even what race he is just make LOTS of units as quickly as possible. Keep buildings depots/pylons in time, keep building workers, make sure you have enough production buildings.
If you can just keep your minerals below 500 that is enough to get out of Copper almost regardless of WHAT you actually make."
|
My friend has been doing this for a while now, and it's really useful. The problem is that it doesn't work too well for Terran.
For me, I am a macro-oriented player, and my problem is my micro. My practice strategy is that I never look at my base unless I'm building something. I have all my gates hotkeyed from 3-9, and I do pretty well macroing. If I ever get good, games will need a lot more focus on micro rather than macro, so it's a good habit to get into early.
|
On April 19 2010 05:20 opsayo wrote:hotkeying ur buildings will make it easier that way u can at least macro a little bit if you are watching the battle
_-_... worst part about it... i did hotkey my buildings T_T....
yea, i just gotta stop sucking on the mechanics, and my apm will start to go up. I did max a 222 (in that game) though, but thats still not saying much T_T
|
10387 Posts
Jaedong disagrees, he's always microing his army. Then again he has like 400 apm
|
On April 19 2010 05:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
My friend has been doing this for a while now, and it's really useful. The problem is that it doesn't work too well for Terran.
For me, I am a macro-oriented player, and my problem is my micro. My practice strategy is that I never look at my base unless I'm building something. I have all my gates hotkeyed from 3-9, and I do pretty well macroing. If I ever get good, games will need a lot more focus on micro rather than macro, so it's a good habit to get into early.
Yeah but if you're able to macro well without looking then you're already better than Copper so this advice doesn't apply to you.
It's for 100% NEW players.
I also don't see how it doesn't apply to Terran.
|
On April 19 2010 05:26 ArvickHero wrote:
Jaedong disagrees, he's always microing his army. Then again he has like 400 apm
jaedong probly has more apm in one finger than i have in two hands O_o. lol
|
On April 19 2010 05:29 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
My friend has been doing this for a while now, and it's really useful. The problem is that it doesn't work too well for Terran.
For me, I am a macro-oriented player, and my problem is my micro. My practice strategy is that I never look at my base unless I'm building something. I have all my gates hotkeyed from 3-9, and I do pretty well macroing. If I ever get good, games will need a lot more focus on micro rather than macro, so it's a good habit to get into early. Yeah but if you're able to macro well without looking then you're already better than Copper so this advice doesn't apply to you. It's for 100% NEW players. I also don't see how it doesn't apply to Terran.
It doesn't apply to terran because if you're playing zerg, no matter how large your mnm army is, its gonna die to 2 lurkers and swarm if you're not looking at it. and if it's vs protoss, not laying any mines or sieging tanks is auto death.
|
|
|
emm, why do i get the impression that first post is about BW, and then there are some posts about SC2( copper? wtf.. xD) People please check where are you posting.
Anyway back on topic. That way of learning the game might work for newbie players playing zerg, but other races require more attention at their army, since it's not so easy to remake it. But oh well, just try MAKING your hands move faster and thinking about all at once. Also find what kind of binds suits you best. For eg. i always binded hatcheries from 1 to 5-7 ( depends on time in game) and rest my army. Some people do opposite, but it's all up to you :D. It won't work on 1st , 2nd or even 100th game, but you will slowly get graps of it after few... .....hundreds of games
|
agree with somebody above me, this is great unless you play terran T_T
|
On April 19 2010 05:29 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
My friend has been doing this for a while now, and it's really useful. The problem is that it doesn't work too well for Terran.
For me, I am a macro-oriented player, and my problem is my micro. My practice strategy is that I never look at my base unless I'm building something. I have all my gates hotkeyed from 3-9, and I do pretty well macroing. If I ever get good, games will need a lot more focus on micro rather than macro, so it's a good habit to get into early. Yeah but if you're able to macro well without looking then you're already better than Copper so this advice doesn't apply to you. It's for 100% NEW players. I also don't see how it doesn't apply to Terran.
As a terran... (and therefore once a noob terran)
I can easily tell you that a big terran army vs big (other) army is virtually worthless without micro. If you don't siege your tanks properly, plant your mines, stim your marines, pull M&M back from lurkers, you're GUARANTEED to epic fail against both zerg & toss.
I'd say that this strategy is perfect for noob Protoss (or for any freaking protoss, it's natural for them), and very good for noob Zerg (good for ling/ultra or a good combination of units), and pretty doomed for Terran. Only if you had a strong sense of Mech can this strategy actually get you anywhere... but noob Terran & Mech don't go well together at all.
Of course, some might say that that's not the point; the point is to teach macro, and to get a habit of getting constant production. This is somewhat true... except you won't be winning anything, and you'll be developing a potentially bad habit of not keeping track of your very fragile terran units. Pumping units like Oov is only worth it when you've got the battle micro to keep them alive. Having said that, if you're not terran, this is a fantastic strat for you.
|
Where was this aforementioned video posted? I'd love to watch it as my macro could definitely use some work, and I'd definitely like to thry this out =D
|
On April 19 2010 05:42 Wings wrote:
Only if you had a strong sense of Mech can this strategy actually get you anywhere... but noob Terran & Mech don't go well together at all.
XDD
but yea, i must say this in defense of the attack move macro start: Eventhough i consciencely tould myself to foucs strictly on building units and attack moving them all over the opponent, i did find myself able to manage moving lurks in positions where they needed to be put. Though the purpose of this strat is to make you macro, and it waz clearly stated that you "DON'T EVER LOOK AT THE UNITS AGAIN" Naturally players would like to see how their units are doing in the fight and skadaddle themselves over the battle for brief moments, and then strait back 2 macro.
Yes i know the literal purpose of this strat (hell, i'm the one who interperted it into the post- no i'm not bragging about that), but underneath the literal purpupose, i think the goal chill wanted us to get at was that your time would be better spent pokeing at ur macro rather than staring at ur units dying in battle. I feel that chill didn't mean stupidly send ur siege tanks strait to ur opponents base, never to siege at all, or to send ur vultures full of mines, never to plant them; thats not at all what he waz saying.
I will say this however: I do see that is what my earlier interpertation implied that "yea, u should attack move unburrowed lurkers and defilers and never use them smartly" and i'm sorry for that, but come one guyz seriously, that waz kinda common sense. o_o;
|
On April 19 2010 05:42 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:29 Klive5ive wrote:On April 19 2010 05:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
My friend has been doing this for a while now, and it's really useful. The problem is that it doesn't work too well for Terran.
For me, I am a macro-oriented player, and my problem is my micro. My practice strategy is that I never look at my base unless I'm building something. I have all my gates hotkeyed from 3-9, and I do pretty well macroing. If I ever get good, games will need a lot more focus on micro rather than macro, so it's a good habit to get into early. Yeah but if you're able to macro well without looking then you're already better than Copper so this advice doesn't apply to you. It's for 100% NEW players. I also don't see how it doesn't apply to Terran. As a terran... (and therefore once a noob terran) I can easily tell you that a big terran army vs big (other) army is virtually worthless without micro. If you don't siege your tanks properly, plant your mines, stim your marines, pull M&M back from lurkers, you're GUARANTEED to epic fail against both zerg & toss. I'd say that this strategy is perfect for noob Protoss (or for any freaking protoss, it's natural for them), and very good for noob Zerg (good for ling/ultra or a good combination of units), and pretty doomed for Terran. Only if you had a strong sense of Mech can this strategy actually get you anywhere... but noob Terran & Mech don't go well together at all. Of course, some might say that that's not the point; the point is to teach macro, and to get a habit of getting constant production. This is somewhat true... except you won't be winning anything, and you'll be developing a potentially bad habit of not keeping track of your very fragile terran units. Pumping units like Oov is only worth it when you've got the battle micro to keep them alive. Having said that, if you're not terran, this is a fantastic strat for you.
I can't see this working at even D level as Zerg (if we're talking about Brood War). ZvT without micro? Only strategies I see as even possible for that is ling all-in or 2 base ultra, neither of which is good for practicing your macro.
|
On April 19 2010 06:03 nik_0_0 wrote:
Where was this aforementioned video posted? I'd love to watch it as my macro could definitely use some work, and I'd definitely like to thry this out =D
O_O; well if ur saying this in refrence to my inintial post, then yea, i kinda never promised to post a vid... and even if i did, turst me, it wouldn't help nneyone much -_-;
|
dont try this in TvZ, kids, unless you want your opponent to get 40-kill lurkers
|
@hyst.eric.al
plz read 4 post above mine (yes, counting urs directly above this one)
|
sauron zerg!
this wont work at all for terran lol, maybe for toss, and definitely for zerg (conga line of zerglings anyone?)
|
On April 19 2010 06:19 hyst.eric.al wrote:
dont try this in TvZ, kids, unless you want your opponent to get 40-kill lurkers
Go mech, get 200/200 3/3, a-move, win! :D
|
On April 19 2010 05:42 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:29 Klive5ive wrote:On April 19 2010 05:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
My friend has been doing this for a while now, and it's really useful. The problem is that it doesn't work too well for Terran.
For me, I am a macro-oriented player, and my problem is my micro. My practice strategy is that I never look at my base unless I'm building something. I have all my gates hotkeyed from 3-9, and I do pretty well macroing. If I ever get good, games will need a lot more focus on micro rather than macro, so it's a good habit to get into early. Yeah but if you're able to macro well without looking then you're already better than Copper so this advice doesn't apply to you. It's for 100% NEW players. I also don't see how it doesn't apply to Terran. As a terran... (and therefore once a noob terran) I can easily tell you that a big terran army vs big (other) army is virtually worthless without micro. If you don't siege your tanks properly, plant your mines, stim your marines, pull M&M back from lurkers, you're GUARANTEED to epic fail against both zerg & toss. I'd say that this strategy is perfect for noob Protoss (or for any freaking protoss, it's natural for them), and very good for noob Zerg (good for ling/ultra or a good combination of units), and pretty doomed for Terran. Only if you had a strong sense of Mech can this strategy actually get you anywhere... but noob Terran & Mech don't go well together at all. Of course, some might say that that's not the point; the point is to teach macro, and to get a habit of getting constant production. This is somewhat true... except you won't be winning anything, and you'll be developing a potentially bad habit of not keeping track of your very fragile terran units. Pumping units like Oov is only worth it when you've got the battle micro to keep them alive. Having said that, if you're not terran, this is a fantastic strat for you.
I don't believe you will develop a bad habit of not keeping track of units if you never win with this strat alone. After developing your macro for a while and it becomes more natural, you will then use those skills and combine them with learning to micro your units properly. The point is just to get in the habit of macroing quickly and efficiently.
|
![[image loading]](http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2514/oov.jpg)
^^This man agrees with OP.^^
And I believe  fOrGG does too.
But seriously, WTF, one of the worst Broodwar ideas I ever heard about.
+ Show Spoiler +What about positioning? Invisible enemy badasses (PROT-ASS) that will rape your army and you won't even notice them? What if your enemy (ZERGGGRR) can macro faster than you, since he can happily spam Drones if he is not being harassed? Or enemy Tanks (TEARRR-RUN) on cliff, causing your Goons' retardation when they are being outranged? This is just ridiculous!
|
I imagine it works well if you are practicing with someone who isn't going to trick you by putting 2 lurkers that kills your giant mnm army in 10 seconds cuz you're not looking :p
but it's solid practice.
|
This isn't the OP saying that "OMG 1a2a3a WORKS FOR ME EVERYBODY DO IT ITS SO PRO", he's just reporting back to chill and his masters about how it works for him at his level
I wish I had started off with this, cause I would always just stare at big battles when I had already laid mines etc. and just watch the protoss go boom :S and then go 2000+ minerals lol
|
United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
it's good for new players who have absolute terrible macro and post in strategy forum all day saying every matchup is imba while attaching a replay of them with 2000 min 1000 gas.
new players tend to focus way too much on micro and trying to look like the pros they see in vods. there is a lot of macro work that goes on you don't see that backs it all up.
until you get good macro your game will always be weak, so yea this is a good idea to understand the impact STRONG MACRO has on your game.
edit: after you have your macro down you can work on the other aspects. I am in no way saying that macro is everything, of course there is army positioning, holding certain points on a map and things like that but newbie players usually SEVERELY lack in the macro department. That's why this is a good exercise.
|
but what about something as important as muta harass? you cant just LOSE all your mutalisks, that would go against the entire idea of harassing which is a crucial component of zvt
|
United States12607 Posts
This is basically how I play StarCraft (bare minimum micro, like burrowing lurkers, using defilers (poorly), and some muta control).
My roommate is a much better gamer than I am and he has vastly superior micro but it won't often matter because I just make too much stuff and expand too much. Chill's advice is great for noob players like me, and for players just starting at SC it reinforces the almost unbelievable importance of macro in this game.
|
On April 19 2010 07:29 erektion wrote:
but what about something as important as muta harass? you cant just LOSE all your mutalisks, that would go against the entire idea of harassing which is a crucial component of zvt
You are missing the point, along with a whole bunch of other people in the thread.
This is a learning tool, or a drill. Imagine I tell you that you need to get better at dribbling to play basketball so I tell you do a bunch of running/dribbling drills. Are you going to come back at me with "But what about grabbing rebounds and shooting free throws. Those are vital parts of basketball"? Well I hope you don't, because if you did then you would be missing the point there like you are missing the point here.
When you want to learn to macro, then you should try to learn macro.
Whether this particular way of practise is actually good is a topic for debate but people bringing up "lol you'll lose to 2 lurkers" are arguing about it in the wrong way.
|
I think the point of this is not to win, it's for practice and to get better. So for people saying "omg it won't work"..
It's not supposed to..
|
@erektion; @Likkzi
never said this strat waz a solid, "will never lose" strat. All i'm saying is that this strategy is a nice starter strategy, or review strategy that is bound to assist new/ (or in my case) newbish players in focusing on macro as oppose to starring down dying units. I am not saying that this strategy is one that everyone in the world should be using cuz it's just so awsome and un-beatable that ur units will just demolish ur enemie's units. I am saying (and hopeful for the last time) that i'm am reporting back to chill my so far positive results, and hopefully introducing the idea to others in the community that would find this helpful or interesting to try out.
I do question why pplz keep saying that this sucks so bad with terrin v nneything. The intent of this tread wazn't to discuss the specifics, but rather introduce the potential benefits that this strategy could build within a player. ultimately, this strategy is trying to reinforce the idea of macro, and other points are welcome, but still, i question why pplz are so determined on saying that this fails for some race in some specific circumstance
Ps: lol at Navi, i know the feeling :S
|
On April 19 2010 07:45 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I think the point of this is not to win, it's for practice and to get better.
But it won't make you better! OK, learn to macro this way. And then try to mix it with normal battle issues (harass, defending pressure, positioning, micro, scouting, reactions...). You will almost be forced to learn how to macro from the beginning. The circumstances of standard gameplay are so different from 'Attack-Move' macro games, that it's gonna make your previous practice worthless. (Sorry, maybe not worthless but dubious at least).
I'm not saying you can sometimes give up macro and be happy with it. I'm saying you have to learn what is less important in current situation, and thus, what can be postponed a little? Sure, newbies need to work on macro first. But when the alternative is, for example, control 8 Vultures to smash 20 Probes or produce one round of units without 10-15 seconds delay, 'macro choice' isn't obvious anymore.
EDIT:
This idea might be valid when played on UMS map with enemy doing nothing (no AI script). Just use the clock, make trigger that game ends once you hit 200/200 and then try to reach it within shortest span of time. You will get quite specific information how fast can you gather money and spend it.
|
United States2822 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:05 Likkzi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:45 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I think the point of this is not to win, it's for practice and to get better. But it won't make you better! OK, learn to macro this way. And then try to mix it with normal battle issues (harass, defending pressure, positioning, micro, scouting, reactions...). You will almost be forced to learn how to macro from the beginning. The circumstances of standard gameplay are so different from 'Attack-Move' macro games, that it's gonna make your previous practice worthless. (Sorry, maybe not worthless but dubious at least). I'm not saying you can sometimes give up macro and be happy with it. I'm saying you have to learn what is less important in current situation, and thus, what can be postponed a little? Sure, newbies need to work on macro first. But when the alternative is, for example, control 8 Vultures to smash 20 Probes or produce one round of units without 10-15 seconds delay, 'macro choice' isn't obvious anymore.
Yes it is. I would 100% of the time get 10-15 seconds of faster building time on another round of units than do stupid patrol micro with Vultures vs. Probes. You'll see progamers make the same decision every time as well.
|
On April 19 2010 08:12 scintilliaSD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:05 Likkzi wrote:On April 19 2010 07:45 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I think the point of this is not to win, it's for practice and to get better. But it won't make you better! OK, learn to macro this way. And then try to mix it with normal battle issues (harass, defending pressure, positioning, micro, scouting, reactions...). You will almost be forced to learn how to macro from the beginning. The circumstances of standard gameplay are so different from 'Attack-Move' macro games, that it's gonna make your previous practice worthless. (Sorry, maybe not worthless but dubious at least). I'm not saying you can sometimes give up macro and be happy with it. I'm saying you have to learn what is less important in current situation, and thus, what can be postponed a little? Sure, newbies need to work on macro first. But when the alternative is, for example, control 8 Vultures to smash 20 Probes or produce one round of units without 10-15 seconds delay, 'macro choice' isn't obvious anymore. Yes it is. I would 100% of the time get 10-15 seconds of faster building time on another round of units than do stupid patrol micro with Vultures vs. Probes. You'll see progamers make the same decision every time as well.
So you are basically saying that you would always prioritize your own macro even when the alternative is to severly hurt your opponent's macro? Because the only thing I am 100% sure about my SC play is that I make SCV for 50 minerals I get in the beginning ^_^
|
I don't see this getting any wins on icCup. Then again Chill always stresses how big of a deal macro is. Some of the other vets say the easy way to get to a higher rank is to just macro. And when it was Chill vs Combat-Ex, I remember artosis commenting on how combat got a billion gateways (just to make his macro easier). Chill was zerg so 3 base hydras was easy enough.
Maybe all you need to get b- is macro.
|
its not really necessary to just ignore your army, the important thing is to put ur macro on higher priority since forgetting it once can hurt u for the rest of the game.
|
To support my point some more: usually, good micro/scouting/harass saves you units you would lose if you were paying more attention to macro at the cost of things I mentioned before.
I also remember some Day[9]'s lecture about Flash's TvZ, when he pointed out that Terran was very agressive, and by exchanging Marines for Mutalisks (decent micro!) he could keep macroing on lower number of Depots, thus saving some money. But trading troops =! throwing away troops, and newbies most often do the former.
In any case, this is way more complicated than it seems to be at first glance.
|
On April 19 2010 08:40 Likkzi wrote:To support my point some more: usually, good micro/scouting/harass saves you units you would lose if you were paying more attention to macro at the cost of things I mentioned before. I also remember some Day[9]'s lecture about Flash's TvZ, when he pointed out that Terran was very agressive, and by exchanging Marines for Mutalisks (decent micro!) he could keep macroing on lower number of Depots, thus saving some money. But trading troops =! throwing away troops, and newbies most often do the former. In any case, this is way more complicated than it seems to be at first glance.
ok, dude, we get ur point, but the question is, do you get ours?
|
On April 19 2010 09:04 skippy2591 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:40 Likkzi wrote:To support my point some more: usually, good micro/scouting/harass saves you units you would lose if you were paying more attention to macro at the cost of things I mentioned before. I also remember some Day[9]'s lecture about Flash's TvZ, when he pointed out that Terran was very agressive, and by exchanging Marines for Mutalisks (decent micro!) he could keep macroing on lower number of Depots, thus saving some money. But trading troops =! throwing away troops, and newbies most often do the former. In any case, this is way more complicated than it seems to be at first glance. ok, dude, we get ur point, but the question is, do you get ours?
Hm, your point was that it's better to macro/select-units/attack-move/macro... than to watch the ensuing battle without doing anything. I agree with that: doing something useful >>> not doing anything, but you know, there are lots of useful things you can do that can't be called 'macro'.
|
The point chill was trying to make, I believe, was that if you macro like crazy against someone that micros like crazy. Each wave of units that you send will slowly trim down the enemy's troops and you will get ahead after each wave, since you'll have another army ready to go.
The issue that Chill is seeing in lower level players (I'm guilty of this) is that they look at the battles, win/lose a battle and the game is over because there's nothing to back them up.
By ignoring micro, you just force the timings into your head, so that they become automatic. Then, once that's in your brain, you can start microing and you'll keep in mind "oh, unit X is about to pop out" and you'll run to your base and macro then be right back in the midst of a battle to micro.
However, its a lot harder to learn to micro and then learn to macro, as it is a lot easier to tunnel vision while you're microing, thus missing all the sound queues.
|
On April 19 2010 09:18 Likkzi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 09:04 skippy2591 wrote:On April 19 2010 08:40 Likkzi wrote:To support my point some more: usually, good micro/scouting/harass saves you units you would lose if you were paying more attention to macro at the cost of things I mentioned before. I also remember some Day[9]'s lecture about Flash's TvZ, when he pointed out that Terran was very agressive, and by exchanging Marines for Mutalisks (decent micro!) he could keep macroing on lower number of Depots, thus saving some money. But trading troops =! throwing away troops, and newbies most often do the former. In any case, this is way more complicated than it seems to be at first glance. ok, dude, we get ur point, but the question is, do you get ours? Hm, your point was that it's better to macro/select-units/attack-move/macro... than to watch the ensuing battle without doing anything. I agree with that: doing something useful >>> not doing anything, but you know, there are lots of useful things you can do that can't be called 'macro'.
agreed. macro without nneything else (such as micro, or minding unit compostion) will get raped almost every single time when going against other decent players. Hopefully though this would encourage newer players to not only try n do all the cute micro shit they saw their favorite progamers do, but to also mind their macro. This is what if feel is the over arching lesson that i feel Chill was intending to be taught, and i must say that from my 5-6 months of experience playing sc online, i have found this lesson the hardest to learn.
that said, OMG, my micro sucks so bad that i once lost 10 hydras to 1 dt... with an over loard just like 6 pixles out of viz radius!!! >.< (lol)
so yea, i understand that macro alone isn't the answer to winning all games ^^
|
its really annoying how everyone's misunderstanding this.
THIS ISNT A TACTIC TO WIN GAMES
this is for practice, and practice for E/D- players at that. at that level, macro truly is everything that's important (aside from rush scenarios)
|
That only works for zerg tho.
Toss will send all their units into tanks/mines and suicide.
Terran? Don't get me started unseiged tanks/blind mnm charging = ^_^ ^_^ ^_^
|
Run all your army into lurkers, what happened?
I have another army, Ima right into 2 lurkers again...
I have 12 tanks and 25 vultures, ima run into into protoss army unattentioned
I have 12 tanks, I will run into 8 sieged tanks and die.
This so doesn't work for any terran army
|
once again i repete for those that may have over looked my earlier post
"I do question why pplz keep saying that this sucks so bad with terrin v nneything. The intent of this tread wazn't to discuss the specifics, but rather introduce the potential benefits that this strategy could build within a player. ultimately, this strategy is trying to reinforce the idea of macro, and other points are welcome, but still, i question why pplz are so determined on saying that this fails for some race in some specific circumstance."
OF course certain circumstance call for diffrent actions, the point of this start is to help newer players/noobish players to mind their macro rather than Stare at dying units. It's obvious that you don't send 50 medic/marine to a zerg expo full of lurks without any scan or any type of science vessle.. u know what, nah, i take that back. seeing as how alot of people are so bent on saying that this won't work unless you want a lurk with 40+ kills, i'll just let you guyz believe that as everyone else sees the true point that chill waz expressing in his SUGGESTION.
Remember, therez a big diffrence between making a mistake and doing somthing retaurtedly stupid; one requires nothing, and the other requires a determination to prove a point.
|
On April 19 2010 06:19 hyst.eric.al wrote:
dont try this in TvZ, kids, unless you want your opponent to get 40-kill lurkers
plz tell this to fantasy
|
On April 19 2010 11:00 skippy2591 wrote:
once again i repete for those that may have over looked my earlier post
"I do question why pplz keep saying that this sucks so bad with terrin v nneything. u know what, nah, i take that back. seeing as how alot of people are so bent on saying that this won't work unless you want a lurk with 40+ kills, i'll just let you guyz believe that as everyone else sees the true point that chill waz expressing in his SUGGESTION.
Remember, therez a big diffrence between making a mistake and doing somthing retaurtedly stupid; one requires nothing, and the other requires a determination to prove a point.
Your tag says you're from the United States, WTF.
I don't happen to think this is the best method of practice because it doesn't teach you how to macro while multitasking, which is the hard part. Macroing in and of itself is not hard.
Eventually you'll just hit a routine.
And to the person who said they'd rather spam their factories and avoid a 15 second delay than smash their opponents probe line, they've got it wrong, unless that particular timing is very necessary.
|
I can't approve this method. For Example, in PvZ you need at least to micro some HT because, without them, you can't win unless your opponent really suck. Pr maube when you mindlessly a move against a field of lurkers. Sure mayb e you will do lots of damage but you will lose lots and lots of zealots. I don't think it is a good way to learn the game.
|
On April 19 2010 10:25 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
its really annoying how everyone's misunderstanding this.
THIS ISNT A TACTIC TO WIN GAMES
this is for practice, and practice for E/D- players at that. at that level, macro truly is everything that's important (aside from rush scenarios)
lol you are not heard over the flood of people replying to posts that are replying to posts that are off topic / misconstrue the OP xD
on another note: one time when i was terran against a 3 base super hard turtling zerg (wtf o.O) i macroed mass firebats nonstop and beat defiler / lurk / ultra.
true story.
|
works damn well as p.
v terran -> hugeball of lots with some goons 1a2a3a4a5a
v zerg - > hugeball of everything with like 5/6 obs 1a2a3a4a5a
it actually helped me on my macro mechanics
of course the player's a D-.
|
Calgary25963 Posts
This isn't a strategy to win games. It's stripping newbs to bare bones so they build on a foundation. I thought that was inherently obvious.
|
This isn't that complicated folks. Obviously A-Moving armies into opponents isn't designed as an actual strategy to win games. I don't even understand why were discussing what MU's this might or might not work in; it's irrelevant.
Its a training excercise for beginners to get them learning the basic fundamentals of the game. In this case macro; having decent macro is paramount, if you opponent is producing twice as much stuff as you, or even 50% as much, even if you micro like Flash you're not going to win. This excercise gets you used to keeping production constant. As both the OP and Chill stated, one of the biggest things total beginners do is sit and watch battles, sometimes do nothing, or doing micro actions that aren't helpful, or just plain overmicroing. This helps break that habit. When you get comfortable with this, then you can start thinking about some of the basic micro actions like sieging tanks, storming, laying mines, lurker burrows, etc.
It's no different than a golf instructor teaching a beginning player a fundamentally sound chipping stroke before doing any full swing stuff. It promotes a solid impact, teaches that a descending blow gets the ball in the air not scooping it or hitting up, and gets the student to lead the shaft into the ball rather than flipping at it.
No,this will not help the student break 180, no it won't guarantee him a fundamentally solid swing. It will however, establish the basics, and ingrain some of the core concepts of a proper swing. The student won't feel the need to try to lift the ball into the air, he'll have a decent initial hinge, and will be used to starting the club back on a good plane with the arms and shoulders working in sequence; in other words, he'll have a good start.
Thats what this idea is for; establishing a good way to ingrain some of the basic concepts of good StarCraft play.
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:05 Likkzi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:45 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I think the point of this is not to win, it's for practice and to get better. But it won't make you better! OK, learn to macro this way. And then try to mix it with normal battle issues (harass, defending pressure, positioning, micro, scouting, reactions...). You will almost be forced to learn how to macro from the beginning. The circumstances of standard gameplay are so different from 'Attack-Move' macro games, that it's gonna make your previous practice worthless. (Sorry, maybe not worthless but dubious at least). I'm not saying you can sometimes give up macro and be happy with it. I'm saying you have to learn what is less important in current situation, and thus, what can be postponed a little? Sure, newbies need to work on macro first. But when the alternative is, for example, control 8 Vultures to smash 20 Probes or produce one round of units without 10-15 seconds delay, 'macro choice' isn't obvious anymore. EDIT: This idea might be valid when played on UMS map with enemy doing nothing (no AI script). Just use the clock, make trigger that game ends once you hit 200/200 and then try to reach it within shortest span of time. You will get quite specific information how fast can you gather money and spend it.
The problem is that if you're relatively new to the game "micro" is counterproductive. If you haven't spent the time to learn how to control your vultures, you might end up getting your vultures killed prematurely, moving them when they could have gotten extra kills by sitting there and continuing to fire, or devoting more time to "micro" them than it's worth. Yeah microing your vultures could produce a better outcome, provided you micro your vultures correctly. Lots of low-level players' micro isn't good enough to produce an outcome drastically better than A-moving. Sieging in awkward positions or poor mine placement can be worse than if you didn't siege or place mines at all.
Micro isn't something you can just DO. It's something that has to be learned, and you have to devote time learning it for each unit of the race you're playing, and in some cases, the micro is different depending on which race or unit composition you're playing against. That takes a LOT of time, and at the early stage when you know little to nothing, learning macro is a much better use of one's time.
|
What you gotta do is try this pure perfect macro practice while simultaneously trying to obtain 250-300 apm. That way you'll hopefully have a bunch extra hand speed and multitasking ability when you start playing normally again.
|
This is an effective exercise to break starcraft down into parts. I think its a good practice. Works better with protoss because you literally can just drag attack move without worrying that much at those levels. I think the goal is to learn to prioritize your macro over everything else. You want your micro to be at the minimum when you're at the lower levels.
|
What you gotta do is try this pure perfect macro practice while simultaneously trying to obtain 250-300 apm. That way you'll hopefully have a bunch extra hand speed and multitasking ability when you start playing normally again.
The whole point of the excercise though is to pretty much just watch your gates and nexii; so you wouldn't be training multitask much, as a complete beginner there is no way you have the ability to be looking at various stuff around the map and stuff keep gateways pumping.
Also, to get 300 apm you'd just have to spam 4567 over and over.
|
Yeah I fully agree that this doesn't really help with terran because as T, you're the one who has to adapt most of the time so scouting is very important and micro is also so important in both TvP and TvZ, which is the most played matchups by terrans. TvT is just insane mechanics.
Sure it won't win you many games but its a good way to get your macro down right step by step.
|
Yeah I fully agree that this doesn't really help with terran because as T, you're the one who has to adapt most of the time so scouting is very important and micro is also so important in both TvP and TvZ, which is the most played matchups by terrans. TvT is just insane mechanics.
I give up. People clearly just don't read the topic and following posts carefully and thoughtfully. This isn't intended to win games, or help players that already have okay mechanics. This is for people that are fairly new and gives them a basic foundation on which they can start to build a decent StarCraft game.
|
This was the method I used earlier when I started on ICCUP. Simple logic behind it makes sense...
1) Having bad macro means you have fewer units to micro.
2) Micro is marginally effective. You cannot outmicro your way out of every situation.
3) Putting together 1 & 2, if you have WAY more stuff than your opponent, he'll crumble because of a gap in unit count.
It also makes newer players see the game as a larger picture. Macro-level games means trading and holding bases with regular production. You can make D+/C- in no time with good macro.
I want to chime in that macro includes thinking about unit selection and teching. Theres no use in throwing your units in to die.
|
If the idea is to play without an opponent and practice macro, I agree, that is helpful. (I've done it myself.) Pretty much the same idea as practicing a build with no opponent, which is also useful.
I thought the idea though was to focus on pure macro during games, which not only is going to lose you the games in a lot of matchups, but you aren't even going to survive long enough to get any serious macro done, so it's not even helpful as practice. That's where my post was coming from.
|
I think this is a good idea for beginners who struggle with multi tasking. Some people don't understand that this is not a "strategy" to win games. Without any micro your army is going to be eaten alive but you'll build up your mechanics and learn the importance of macro.
|
I don't think it's possible to be always macroing. You may macro for five seconds, get 15 barracks flashing and set up an expansion, but then you have to wait 25 seconds before you do anything again. Wouldn't it be a better practice to try to still do some micro during your downtime so that you don't completely forget how to micro when you try to start winning games again? I mean macro itself can't take more than 60eapm if you have 15 barracks and a few CC. All D's have 60apm. Some have 60 apm on sunken defence. You need even less apm for macro if you are protoss, zerg or going mech. Protoss units and mech train slower so you have to go back less. Zerg hatcheries are much more forgiving on missing production cycles.
Starcraft is about a balance of micro and macro, and if you neglect one for the other too much then you aren't really improving. This is the point some of us are trying to bring up. As a suggestion I think the practice should be changed to just a few actions right when the battle starts: eg sieging your tanks, stopping your vultures from continuing running, then going back to your base. That can't take much time and is much better practice in the long run.
On April 19 2010 16:36 blueblimp wrote:
If the idea is to play without an opponent and practice macro, I agree, that is helpful. (I've done it myself.) Pretty much the same idea as practicing a build with no opponent, which is also useful.
I thought the idea though was to focus on pure macro during games, which not only is going to lose you the games in a lot of matchups, but you aren't even going to survive long enough to get any serious macro done, so it's not even helpful as practice. That's where my post was coming from.
As he says, it's also not a good practice since you're just macroing hard and throwing away units, only worse than a computer would. You won't survive long enough to get any macro experience.
Another good way to practice macro is to play fastest. Lots of macro involved here. Then after the game ends, you can choose to continue playing and try your hands at controlling 30 production buildings, if for nothing else but muscle memory. Then killing your own units to get the pop down, and getting back to macro as fast as possible. I found that very helpful.
|
Sounds like team melee. That game type is by far the most fun for lolz moments at lans! But seriously You give one person the macro job and one person the micro job.
|
i dont see terran or zerg working.. toss maybe xD
|
If you want to practice, why not do so on an empty map? This sounds ridiculous if you ask me. This will probably only "work" for ZvP or PvZ.
|
this idea works actually quite well for the very low level players. Do Almost no micro (still make sure that your observers are there for lurkers)/micro shuttles (zealot bombs/reavers.) And macro like a madman. If i recall correctly one of the Day9 dailys (stork v jaedong) showed jaedong almost ignoring his army entirely and macroing insanly well (never going above 120 gas or 200 minerals). although he lost the game due to not sending his army one wave it shows how important macro is if even Jaedong micros little (If i recall correctly he was macroing 80% of the time.)
Wouldnt this also work much better in SC2 zerg? as zerg only really need to micro brood lords/infestors. focusing purely on BO timing building up a army/economy and stright out-macroing your opponent with your roach/hydra army on A-move is almost how most zergs i see play. (they are doing Pinser attacks/burrow traps but for the most part its A-move in build up and A-move in again).
|
I think I've heard Chill mention this method of getting better before. It definitely works, but it's kind of painful, even boring, to macro up a big army, only to send it conga-line into a sieged up terran position. And your opponent will probably be on the other end, WTFing as wave after wave of your units die without ever touching his army.
Personally, it's the greatest feeling in the world watching my hydra/muta army trash a terran mech army - I live for that sorta thing - but I hardly ever macro well enough to be able to win that fight. In the end, long term gain > training losses.
|
well as for me, after like four games of focusing purly on macro, I found that something strange began to happen. I found that while I spamed s h on my hatches, ordered my drones to morph n2 structures, and scurried all my units to prepare for their death march, I ended up with these brief pockets of time where my resources were to low to power hydra, my larva were all mutating, my mineral saturation waz reasonably high, and everything was going as planed...
call me noobie or stupid if you want, but fellow tl-ers, I finally found where my micro has to go in my gameplan. for one of the first times in few months of playing bw online, I felt like I finally got it. it felt great!! finally, I am begining to lose games not just because my units had no ups or reinforcements, but I am loseing because my left hand is to uncordinated to hit 1a2a3a4a fast enough to keep my army toghether.
this my friends is a very nice feeling to have... but now I only wish my left hand would just magically float to the keys that I want it to hit just like the pros do >_<
lol, not out of the woods yet, but closer than I was yesterday ^~^
thx chill 4 suggestion
|
some of you guys are saying that learning how to multitask is more important. how do you guys expect to learn how to multitask when you don't know how to macro properly. ._.
most of us here have passed that learning curve. we already understand that. but for the people who are just now being introduced to starcraft, this is an incredible way of getting them settled into the competitive field. you've probably forgotten just how hard properly macroing is for a beginner.
Someone used a basketball analogy earlier, and i'll use it as well. Many people watch Kobe or Lebron or Carmelo or Kevin Durant or all of those high scorers and think "oh shit. they're so fuckin cool. I wanna play like that", but the majority of those people only end up working on their shot so they can shoot like their idols. That's horrible, because they're not learning the basic fundamentals. Most of them use a horrible shooting technique, and they barely touch on other fundamentals such as dribbling or passing or layups. In order to develop into a good player, they need to learn the other basics so that the shot that they practice hard on can show it's true potential. That's just like Starcraft basics. You can have the best fucking micro in the world, but if you don't have the macro to support your micro, you're going to get overrun. You need to develop your macro in order to make your micro shine, or at the very least supported. That's what Chill's emphasizing.
|
This paired up with ~80 apm can get you to D+ with zerg at least. This is how I made it there, and I am god awful at this game. Micro is unimportant (micro ultralisks? cracklings?), scouting is useless (lol like I know what buildings to look for, or when anything is supposed to be built), proper army comp isn't required (enough of anything will eventually kill them) even making hotkey groups is unimportant (drag->go drag->go drag->go etc.). I was a chronic army-watcher. I wouldn't click anything, I'd just watch the battle. When it was done I'd re-build my army with my brand new money (omg 3k-3k here come more ULTRALISKS). This will remedy that. As for hotkey groups... another day perhaps.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=107478
Will it get you to C? Probably not. Will it help you build more then a group of units with 3k-3k sitting in the bank? You bet.
|
United States17042 Posts
this really isn't meant for iccup, although it can be used there for wins (play Pvt only -_- . It's really meant for training 100% new players.
after that you can start worrying about unit mix, and you'll win more games. And then you can start worrying about timing, which requires scouting. At that point, you should be playing ~80 apm minimum, which is a pretty good way to start off in either sc1 or sc2.
|
On April 20 2010 09:53 B]
call me noobie or stupid if you want, but fellow tl-ers, I finally found where my micro has to go in my gameplan. for one of the first times in few months of playing bw online, I felt like I finally got it. it felt great!! finally, I am begining to lose games not just because my units had no ups or reinforcements, but I am loseing because my left hand is to uncordinated to hit 1a2a3a4a fast enough to keep my army toghether.
this my friends is a very nice feeling to have... but now I only wish my left hand would just magically float to the keys that I want it to hit just like the pros do >_<
lol, not out of the woods yet, but closer than I was yesterday ^~^
thx chill 4 suggestion
I don't understand what you are saying. Are you sarcastically bashing the idea or saying that it worked for you? Is losing games one way better than another?
On April 20 2010 11:02 goldenkrnboi wrote:
some of you guys are saying that learning how to multitask is more important. how do you guys expect to learn how to multitask when you don't know how to macro properly. ._.
most of us here have passed that learning curve. we already understand that. but for the people who are just now being introduced to starcraft, this is an incredible way of getting them settled into the competitive field. you've probably forgotten just how hard properly macroing is for a beginner.
You need to develop your macro in order to make your micro shine, or at the very least supported. That's what Chill's emphasizing.
Well I just played some relatively new players today because I was really interested about the strategy. It didn't seem like they were losing to macro but rather to micro. They would run battlecruisers under my dark swarmed hydras, in the first game. When we double four/five pooled a player in the first game he had no idea how to defend it as a zerg with 9pool. I've defended 2x4pools before.
Then in the second game I defended against a 3v1 assault for a good half hour, not because their macro was bad. They had enough units to beat me. They just had no good unit composition, no drops, no idea how weak I really was compared to them. When my ally pushed out with 20 carriers they had no idea how to counter it and we won again a 3v2.
They expanded just fine even though it was bgh. They built drones and probes and scvs.
I would argue that micro is just as important, if not more important than macro. New players should try to learn both so they can improve faster and better. Now according to my tests here and on bnet today, I will agree that putting macro at a higher emphasis than micro did allow me to have a far larger impact on the game. But macro isn't everything. You need to practice both.
You need to develop your micro so that your macro will at least have some use. That's what I'm emphasizing. If anyone wants the reps I can put them up... I just don't want to do it without permission.
|
@obesechicken13
no, i'm just stateing that its becoming more clear to me that macro was a major part of my game that i waz missing which lead me to so many extended streaks of sucking w/ the occasional victory sprinkled here and there.
Of cours i always knew that i sucked at macro, but i for some reason didn't consciencly make the vital connection that one of the major reasons why i frequently lost waz because i spent so many credit hours (lol, college humor) staring at dying things as oppose to spending resources and teching.
Now i would be lying to all of you if i said it waz because of chill's suggestion that i took note of this cuz observers sure don't cut their toungs mid game, and bw chart never seemes to loose replays ( wish it did some times -_-), but i can honestly say that it wazn't untill his suggestion that i made a true conscience effort to actually nagg myself about macro rather than muta micro or attack-retret-attack hydras.
addressing ur response to golden's statement, i must say yes, the point you are emphasizing is very much valid, and is equaly as important as what i feel chill waz emphasizing... that cannont, however, go without asking the very simple question of:::: Which one is more important to learn earlier on? micro or macro?
imo, its macro hands down because being able to manage ur army is nice with all the cute shit u can do w/ defillers and shuttles (shuttle bombs ftw! >.< ), but I feel its much more important to know/ find out when the time is right to throw down that queens nest in preperation for hive tech first as oppose to commanding an army of Aced* Hydras.
*historical refrence for WWI pilots, look it up
|
Doing a bunch of games using this method has really helped me get my macro rolling. I was always a victim of watching the battles and microing. The microing does help, especially with sentries out. But I forced myself to not even look at the battle. The most I would do is glance at the minimap.
I noticed myself sending out huge armies much quicker than before. I was also able to expand with minimal effort.
Sitting there macroing as much as I can. Then all of a sudden, the victory screen pops up.
|
chill's suggestion is a great idea of course, he is chill our king
but there are exceptions, chill's idea was just for general practice and foundation joint
anyways yeah if you have skills to use, a little microing you could be doing, if you haev enough APM don't macro go ahead and micro and you can win right there
macro isn't always more important that micro, it all depends on the situation~
cheers, great advice for practicing
On April 19 2010 17:22 madnessman wrote:
I think this is a good idea for beginners who struggle with multi tasking. Some people don't understand that this is not a "strategy" to win games. Without any micro your army is going to be eaten alive but you'll build up your mechanics and learn the importance of macro.
|
So i tryd this and i cant last enough in an online match to get any practice (i have to play iccup cuz i dont have the real game and cant find it anywhere >.<) Im going to have to practice this with a computer and ima try and put the game on fastest to see if that helps me out more
|
|
|
I just remembered Free lost to NC Yellow in 2008 in Bo3 but then came back and beat savior and jaedong
eh PvZ is hard
|
On April 22 2010 10:53 Ironson wrote:For completeness, the OP was referring to djWheat and Chill's "Weapon of Choice" show. First (pilot) episode can be viewed here: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6279504
yea, right at about 1:10:00 for all those wanting to hear it. If you are going to check it out, i suggest listining from that point on (for the purposes of discussion of course)
--thx ironson for refrence
XD ad djWheat's rebuttal to listenr gripe
|
Can't wait to try this out in SC2.
Being 100% new and jumping into everything, I'm feeling really overwhelmed. This gives me a good place to start.
|
hey it worked for protoss in bw!
edit: or just get templar archives and hit k
|
its awesome if you are protoss tbh
edit: nooo wasted my 1000th post on this
|
I do this when I play. I'll send my blob to attack and then focus on keeping my supply up and my money down. It really is amazing how many people you can over-run with simple numbers.
This was true in SC1 and didn't change with SC2.
|
lol to people worrying about their 'micro' - the sc2 single player 'challenge' missions should help keep your skills up to speed. I mean, they have very defined, micro-specific challenges. So I wouldnt worry too much about strengthening your micro game now for that reason.
The challenge missions don't address macro though. Just saying. =)
|
I used to do that, but I honestly win more games with cheese strats who requires a lot of micro o.O
|
I used to play Terran so I agree, it can be micro intensive. BUT I also used to make fun of Protoss players with the whole 1a2a3a bullshit but now that I have switched over I see that the joke is pretty far off from the truth. If I just 1a2a3a against a sieged and mined Terran I will fail. Zealots will attack mines and clump up and die in 2 seconds followed by my Dragoons. So, point being, Protoss requires quite a bit of micro in battle. Terran is a very easy race to macro up because its a defensive army, you set your tanks vultures and mines with some turrets and then just sit there and macro your base. This only changes if you're making a large push. I had a WAAAAY easier time macroing with Terran than Protoss because with Toss im busy chasing vultures and moving my army around everywhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
