Entries are no longer revealed 48 hours before the scheduled games. They are now revealed set-by-set on the site. Even players do not know who they will face. Any player who has played in any of the first 4 sets can still play in the ace match. This will provide more challenge and excitement to both fans and players. This is also to make bettings harder to score. (NOOO LIQUIBET)
The one-race-per-match compulsory rule is now gone. Teams can now send 4 of the same races if they wish to.
that means, before the games start, they reveal the first set's players. once set one is played, set two's players are revealed. then after set two is played, set three's players are revealed. if there has to be a set 4, then set 4's players are revealed.
Wow these are huge changes! It will have much more strategic thinking to pick who to send out next etc etc. Will be much harder to practise, instead of practising for one match up you can very possibly get a different opponent youd expect, making game quality a little lower? Exciting notheless. Without the rule of having 1 of each race, hmm... That will get rid of alot of P I feel, I think there will be games like Oz vs Stars where it will be a ZvZ fest with a ZvT or something.
The one-race-per-match compulsory rule is now gone. Teams can now send 4 of the same races if they wish to.
there's a wild party in the SKT coaches room right now
why? their zergs consistently outperformed their Ps and in certain instances their Ts in the last round or two
i'd think the team who is celebrating the most:
Hite - don't have to send their horrendous Ps anymore Hwaseung - same Wemade - same MBC - same Woongjin - no more bad Ts (though MVP has been doing OK recently)
eh I hope the new rules won't result in a crapload of mirror matchups.. and the Protoss race will vanish on many teams.. The set by set revealing thingy seems quite cool!
But will the players be known in advance and revealed during the actual thing or the teams will be able to decide for the next map on the spot providing which player already played...???
On April 07 2010 17:05 konadora wrote: that means, before the games start, they reveal the first set's players. once set one is played, set two's players are revealed. then after set two is played, set three's players are revealed. if there has to be a set 4, then set 4's players are revealed.
this is bullshit, just do WL the whole year instead
On April 07 2010 17:05 konadora wrote: that means, before the games start, they reveal the first set's players. once set one is played, set two's players are revealed. then after set two is played, set three's players are revealed. if there has to be a set 4, then set 4's players are revealed.
this is bullshit, just do WL the whole year instead
and GL guessing STX's lineup
Well, it is only choosing between: Hwasin, Frozean, Bogus, Kal, Shuttle, by.hero, Modesty, and Calm.
On April 07 2010 17:42 integral wrote: holy shit, this change has HUGE implications for how teams prepare
players will not know the race they're practicing against beforehand and will have to split their practice time accordingly...
I wonder if this will result in games that are better or worse? Less polished, anyway.
on one hand we get less cheese and all-ins, on the other hand we dont get to see many well-thought out builds. I dont think everyone playing quasi-standard would be too bad
On April 07 2010 17:39 M2 wrote: But will the players be known in advance and revealed during the actual thing or the teams will be able to decide for the next map on the spot providing which player already played...???
This is what I would like to confirm, it isn't really clearly stated on Fomos.
On April 07 2010 17:39 M2 wrote: But will the players be known in advance and revealed during the actual thing or the teams will be able to decide for the next map on the spot providing which player already played...???
This is what I would like to confirm, it isn't really clearly stated on Fomos.
But I suspect players don't know either.
Obviously the players or/and the opposite teams will not know who is next on the line before the actual match. What I was wondering is if the teams provide some kind of list in advance lets say to the referes there with players order which cannot be changed, either this or they decide on the spot after each set with only rule being you cannot repeat players except for the ACE match.
edit. Actually this is exactly what you answered in my first post, but I didnt get it :-)))
Personally, I don't like the change. It's just Winner's League but even MORE unpredictable (except for ace match... maybe). I predict a bunch of sloppy games played.
On April 07 2010 17:42 integral wrote: holy shit, this change has HUGE implications for how teams prepare
players will not know the race they're practicing against beforehand and will have to split their practice time accordingly...
I wonder if this will result in games that are better or worse? Less polished, anyway.
on one hand we get less cheese and all-ins, on the other hand we dont get to see many well-thought out builds. I dont think everyone playing quasi-standard would be too bad
nah itll be more cheese
u dont need practice to do 8rax or 4p or proxy gates
The only question is: do they decide who play next right after the previous set is played (WL style), or they send the whole 4-player list to KeSPA beforehand (PL style)?.
The one-race-per-match compulsory rule is now gone. Teams can now send 4 of the same races if they wish to.
there's a wild party in the SKT coaches room right now
why? their zergs consistently outperformed their Ps and in certain instances their Ts in the last round or two
i'd think the team who is celebrating the most:
Hite - don't have to send their horrendous Ps anymore Hwaseung - same Wemade - same MBC - same Woongjin - no more bad Ts (though MVP has been doing OK recently)
Pure ain't so bad. Of course, i would rather see midas play.
Players not knowing beforehand who they're up against will prevent in-depth preparation and may very well hurt game quality. On the other hand, it rewards improvisation and on-the-spot thinking, which are interesting player qualities too.
it's always been like that =/ (if you mean playing once in the first four sets and then in the ace match) anyway new change is going to make fantasy pl a hell lot hard t.t
On April 07 2010 19:37 Scorch wrote: Players not knowing beforehand who they're up against will prevent in-depth preparation and may very well hurt game quality. On the other hand, it rewards improvisation and on-the-spot thinking, which are interesting player qualities too.
They could have mixed both imo. Like first 2 games are known in advance, rest is on the spot.
I don't like the change too much personally. Prepared strategies are what make the game fun.
On April 07 2010 19:37 Scorch wrote: Players not knowing beforehand who they're up against will prevent in-depth preparation and may very well hurt game quality. On the other hand, it rewards improvisation and on-the-spot thinking, which are interesting player qualities too.
They could have mixed both imo. Like first 2 games are known in advance, rest is on the spot.
I don't like the change too much personally. Prepared strategies are what make the game fun.
I agree - would have been nice to split the difference. The relative lack of prepared games is disappointing.
Though, maybe this means less mirrors. In the past, if you had a map that was really good for one race, it was really hard to send a different race out because there'd be 2+ days of preparation for the matchup. But now, say a map is really good for T, then you can "snipe" by sending a P who was almost fully practicing PvT while the other player was probably practicing mostly TvT.
So in a sense there is a good chance for prepared builds still.
On April 07 2010 20:23 Holgerius wrote: I'm not sure I like these changes. =/ It's like a lame version of WL.
How can you not like these changes? It's going back to how Proleague was in 2006!! To me thats incredibly exciting as it brings in sooo many more tactful elements. Sniping is going to be more common place - which is a good thing. I don't think we're going to see TvT x1000 even given this map pool since if you only practice TvT for a week then up end up against a Protoss - well then you're in trouble! I dno, it's going to make Proleague a lot more interesting for me anyway,
"Oh man, I can't wait to play my match against OZ! I wonder who I'll be playing against... it'll be easy to beat scrubs like BackHo and Young, I think I stand a good chance against HiyA, and Killer is gonna be a pushover since I'm Terran. So who's it gonna be?"
To be honest it won't be <TOOOO> difficult predicting which race/player would come out. The map is the depending factor like e.g Moon Glaive, most teams would send out a terran but i think the interesting part of this is when unpredicted player/race comes out on unbalanced/favoured maps so i think the sniping aspect isn't quite gone.
On April 07 2010 20:23 Holgerius wrote: I'm not sure I like these changes. =/ It's like a lame version of WL.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. They're making it more like the Winners League without it actually being the Winners League. Having two different systems was interesting, and the regular proleague emphasized map and matchup preparation while helping teams that didn't have a very strong ace player. The only problem I see with the old model is that there were four rounds of it -- the easiest way to spice it up while keeping two distinct systems would've been to replace one Proleague round with a second Winners League round and have them alternate, R1 PL, R2 WL, R3 PL, R4 WL, R5 PL.
We'll have to see how it plays out.
On April 07 2010 20:11 darktreb wrote: I agree - would have been nice to split the difference. The relative lack of prepared games is disappointing.
Though, maybe this means less mirrors. In the past, if you had a map that was really good for one race, it was really hard to send a different race out because there'd be 2+ days of preparation for the matchup. But now, say a map is really good for T, then you can "snipe" by sending a P who was almost fully practicing PvT while the other player was probably practicing mostly TvT.
So in a sense there is a good chance for prepared builds still.
This could turn out to be true. The Winners League -- though it works somewhat differently because the opposing player is known to the team sending out their own player -- already cut down on the number of mirrors: according to TLPD 45% of Proleague games were mirrors, compared to only 37% of Winners League games.
I *really* wanted to tell everyone about the secret entries format since I found out about it all the way back at MSL selection night from one of the team managers. I'm excited for it though and I'm glad I kept quiet.
The only real question is whether lineups are still being set before the game, or not. Of course, this doesn't really matter for game-day planning purposes, but on the other hand if the coaches have to set a lineup before hand then the lineups are going to be less fluid (lots of good players on the 3-set, say) I think.
On April 07 2010 20:23 Holgerius wrote: I'm not sure I like these changes. =/ It's like a lame version of WL.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. They're making it more like the Winners League without it actually being the Winners League. Having two different systems was interesting, and the regular proleague emphasized map and matchup preparation while helping teams that didn't have a very strong ace player. The only problem I see with the old model is that there were four rounds of it -- the easiest way to spice it up while keeping two distinct systems would've been to replace one Proleague round with a second Winners League round and have them alternate, R1 PL, R2 WL, R3 PL, R4 WL, R5 PL.
We'll have to see how it plays out.
I disagree. The system we just got rid of discouraged sniping as you could prepare against the sniper all week long. This lead to an influx of mirror matchups which later led to the introduction of retarded race limitation rules to combat this. More preparation just stagnated proleague, hence why WL was infinitely better. This change is excellent and returns a vast amount of strategy to the team league which is superb!
On April 07 2010 20:23 Holgerius wrote: I'm not sure I like these changes. =/ It's like a lame version of WL.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. They're making it more like the Winners League without it actually being the Winners League. Having two different systems was interesting, and the regular proleague emphasized map and matchup preparation while helping teams that didn't have a very strong ace player. The only problem I see with the old model is that there were four rounds of it -- the easiest way to spice it up while keeping two distinct systems would've been to replace one Proleague round with a second Winners League round and have them alternate, R1 PL, R2 WL, R3 PL, R4 WL, R5 PL.
We'll have to see how it plays out.
I disagree. The system we just got rid of discouraged sniping as you could prepare against the sniper all week long. This lead to an influx of mirror matchups which later led to the introduction of retarded race limitation rules to combat this. More preparation just stagnated proleague, hence why WL was infinitely better. This change is excellent and returns a vast amount of strategy to the team league which is superb!
Well, I didn't mention sniping, only preparation. As for your other point, I just checked the holy TLPD when responding to darktreb's post and I agree with you about less mirrors, so I'll settle for cautious optimism.
Tbh I may just be bitter that I'm being mindfucked before my first FPL and forced to reassess everything.
^_^ have faith! Many people only started watching around 2007 so this is going to be all new to them. But, for those of us who have been around here for longer this is a blast from the past.
as an OT side note, damn that 2006 Grand Final thread has the sickest rosters ever. Bisu/Pusan/July/Saint/Sea/Light vs Midas/Oov/Gorush/Kingdom/Rainbow ohhhhhh
On April 07 2010 22:10 Plexa wrote: ^_^ have faith! Many people only started watching around 2007 so this is going to be all new to them. But, for those of us who have been around here for longer this is a blast from the past.
as an OT side note, damn that 2006 Grand Final thread has the sickest rosters ever. Bisu/Pusan/July/Saint/Sea/Light vs Midas/Oov/Gorush/Kingdom/Rainbow ohhhhhh
On April 07 2010 22:10 Plexa wrote: ^_^ have faith! Many people only started watching around 2007 so this is going to be all new to them. But, for those of us who have been around here for longer this is a blast from the past.
as an OT side note, damn that 2006 Grand Final thread has the sickest rosters ever. Bisu/Pusan/July/Saint/Sea/Light vs Midas/Oov/Gorush/Kingdom/Rainbow ohhhhhh
Whoa what the freak. Interesting... Terran domination train incoming... Think about seeing 5 TvTs in one match xD Also does this change FPL at all? Do we still have to choose one of each race?
Hmmm now this is definitely more like SWL in the fact that you can't just practice for one match-up if you want to be prepared... definitely looking to see a lot of solid macro players take the limelight. Though hopefully there will still be some good map-based cheeses...
- Teams sends out their best players according how practice games goes. No more race fillers.
- Makes them practice all 3 matchups (unless they have certain knowledge about opposing teams pick) -> makes team practice easier as you can put 4-5 players practice one map and rotate every week and see who does best that moment.
i really hate this. i dont have the time or willpower to get up every morning to watch proleague, so I only watched the games with exciting matches. now i could get up and end up watching 4 tvts with a zvz ace match
On April 07 2010 22:10 Plexa wrote: ^_^ have faith! Many people only started watching around 2007 so this is going to be all new to them. But, for those of us who have been around here for longer this is a blast from the past.
as an OT side note, damn that 2006 Grand Final thread has the sickest rosters ever. Bisu/Pusan/July/Saint/Sea/Light vs Midas/Oov/Gorush/Kingdom/Rainbow ohhhhhh
it was a fucking amazing finals heh
Lol, Bisu lost to Rainbow and Sea crushed GoRush to win it all. One of the greatest sets, with July crushing Oov's 1 rax CC build with a ling heavy rush.
Funny, I recall it was 910/TheZerg and Light/Saint? on 2v2 Duty for MBC, as well as July, Bisu, Sea, Pusan amongst the ones on 1v1 call. You look back and you see that eventually 3 of MBC's 8 players that played eventually went on and play/played for SKT at some point later on.
It seems like changes similar to these are what's needed to revitalize the SC scene. If more changes are evaluated and eventually implemented the Korean SC scene could be much more dynamic.
Just thought I'd add speculative poll. Particularly about the reshaping of lineups.
Poll: Who benefits most from these new rules? (Vote): SKT: Bisu/Canata/Best/fantasy every time (Vote): ACE: Much less Yellow/GoRush in a terran-friendly scene (Vote): Hite: Even less Tazza, Horang2, and Secret (Vote): Oz: No more Perfectman, Perfectman, or Perfectman (Vote): Stars: More Soulkey/Crazy-Hydra, less MVP/Piano (Vote): KTR: Flash/ForGG/Stats/Violet every time (Vote): Fox: Mind/Midas/Baby/filler every time
Now that I think of it, this could be great for KT, because KT zergs (Hoejja/Luxury/815/Firefits) are almost as big of liabilities as PerfectMan. But since they're almost certainly rolling to the playoffs anyways, it won't really affect the overall standings.
KT zergs (21-25 for the season) don't come anywhere as close to how horrible OZ's tosses have been this year (2-20 for the season). No doubt about it, this benefits OZ the most.
On April 08 2010 06:02 p4NDemik wrote: KT zergs (21-25 for the season) don't come anywhere as close to how horrible OZ's tosses have been this year (2-20 for the season). No doubt about it, this benefits OZ the most.
A large chunk of those wins came in the first round courtesy of Luxury, though, so that's a midly misleading record. Since then, KT zergs have been largely inept.
11 of those 21 wins came from players not named Park Chan Soo. So even without Luxury it still doesn't come close to rivaling how bad OZ's toss lineup is.
Urg, i'm gonna have to re-think my entire FPL now. I was picking like, hyuk and movie and stuff assuming they'd get lots of runs being the only decent p/z on their teams, now the 1 of each race rule is gone...hmmm, its gonna make FPL alot like FWL in terms of picks imo. They'll just send out their best 4
On April 08 2010 06:02 p4NDemik wrote: KT zergs (21-25 for the season) don't come anywhere as close to how horrible OZ's tosses have been this year (2-20 for the season). No doubt about it, this benefits OZ the most.
A large chunk of those wins came in the first round courtesy of Luxury, though, so that's a midly misleading record. Since then, KT zergs have been largely inept.
They got a 6-8 score in WL, versus a 0-2 score for OZ protoss
On April 08 2010 06:16 p4NDemik wrote: 11 of those 21 wins came from players not named Park Chan Soo. So even without Luxury it still doesn't come close to rivaling how bad OZ's toss lineup is.
There's no debate that Oz benefits more, I'm just saying KT benefits as well, or at least they would if Violet would get his shit together.
It's great that the one-race rule has been removed. The new set by set rule should be interesting as it will force more strategy for lineup choices as players won't know how to specifically prepare. This will definitely help the teams that have a weak lineup for a race, but the results may not be so different from winner's league. The rule changes will produce more competitive games as we will be seeing each team's true identities. Can't wait!
The one-race-per-match compulsory rule is now gone. Teams can now send 4 of the same races if they wish to.
No more OZ Perfectman? Spear? Backho? 'ts a shame. I liked that rule. (Even though it would be fun to see a WeMade FOX Mind, Midas, NaDa & Baby combo in the proleague. Terran roll~)
OZ, easily: Jaedong, HiyA, Killer, (ggaemo or Lomo or Anytime forfeiting a game because he's not with the team but is still a better Protoss in the OZ lineup than what they have) is a scary lineup.
Oz benefits so much from this, as do Woongjin and WeMade. Its also good for the players so they dont have to fight for places, and in general makes FPL and LB so much more challenging. Thanks for the update :D
This is so good, now good coaches for making good picks will be so good=>
SKT vs Oz Oz thinks SKT will send out fantasy and they send the sniper out, but surprise SKT actualy sends bisu wich raps the sniper. SKT sends fantasy out thinking Oz will send JD, but Oz sends killer to snipe fantasy with 4pool XD
All I expect these rules to add are to make the games sloppier and safer (they won't know who they're up against) though it won't be too bad as we see from WL. Also there will be more mirrors...
I like the removal of the 1 race each match rule but overall this is a dumb move........again kespa fucked up. Who would go line up to watch a match that they don't know who will be playing in. At least if they release the lineup and people see that its Flash vs JaeDong more people will go watch.
On April 08 2010 09:33 G3nXsiS wrote: I like the removal of the 1 race each match rule but overall this is a dumb move........again kespa fucked up. Who would go line up to watch a match that they don't know who will be playing in. At least if they release the lineup and people see that its Flash vs JaeDong more people will go watch.
FYI, Proleague originally played like this. Maybe they're experimenting to see if it still works. If they notice that they have lower average ratings, they'd just revert back.
The hidden lineups are meh, could add excitement, could make it a bit more confusing, hard to tell. The race restriction removal will only be good, however. How can anyone complain about knowing that the 4 players who go out each day are there because they are playing the best at the moment, not because they happen to be playing the best among their race.
On April 08 2010 08:51 ndralcasid wrote: SKT1, despite the fact we go LOLSKT1Zergs, still would want to send Hyuk once in a while if the situation calls for it.
SKT is just kinda failing all around these days, they might as well send our their Zergs. After all Hyuk is the Schrödinger's cat of Proleague.
Seems like it might be more exciting, especially when there's less snipers around. However, removing the race restrictions might make some teams increadibly stale, and increase the number of mirrors, which would be terribly boring. Then again, due to different strengths in races between the teams it might not. Should be a good thing overall.
On April 09 2010 08:36 sushiman wrote: Seems like it might be more exciting, especially when there's less snipers around. However, removing the race restrictions might make some teams increadibly stale, and increase the number of mirrors, which would be terribly boring. Then again, due to different strengths in races between the teams it might not. Should be a good thing overall.
i think there could be more snipers its just a matter of if the team can guess what set they will be played in..
if your complaint is "this is bad because of my fpl is gonna suck now" you are not really taking the right attitude towards this. Also you still have time to adjust your team lol.
Looks good, but i am going to hold off until i see for myself what happens
I still think these new maps are a HUGE DEAL and a big breakaway from the recent map style. im SUPER looking forward to them.
On April 08 2010 11:13 ggrrg wrote: Obviously Kespa did not take FPL and Liquibet into consideration when making those rules
This is a far superior setup for FPL. The old style of FPL was full of whorish trading to make sure your players are all playing this week. Now, you're actually betting that the players you picked will be good enough to play and win this week.
On April 08 2010 11:13 ggrrg wrote: Obviously Kespa did not take FPL and Liquibet into consideration when making those rules
This is a far superior setup for FPL. The old style of FPL was full of whorish trading to make sure your players are all playing this week. Now, you're actually betting that the players you picked will be good enough to play and win this week.
There was more analysis based on what matchups your players drew on what maps, whether they were being played in the 4th set and vs. what team, etc. Now as far as I'm concerned you just go with your gut feeling on whether some player is performing and will continue to perform better than another. It's definitely not a superior setup for FPL.
Am I thought only person who was actually helped by this? It means Midas will get more playing time, and WeMade won't have to send out their terrible non-Terrans, so they'll perform that much better this season. Plus, it means PerfectMan won't play, and he's on my anti, so that will be all good then
I like the blind pick change, but not a fan of not forcing teams to have each race play. I mean before there weakest race was a major weakness and now you just don't use them.
Maybe its because it would make it very easy to guess who was coming out if they hadn't used a zerg yet
can someone clear up whether or not the players are simply pre-assigned but not revealed, or does the coach actually choose a player when the map comes up and can use POE to better snipe a player (in the case of Modesty in the fourth set)?
While I do think this will make Proleague more exciting (ACE match player reveal before every game!) I do feel sorry for the players though. They already practice their hearts out for one matchup, now they have to do it for three?
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/konadora/1270615295_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/PLNews/wlteamrace.png)
, since guessing KT's, CJ's and STX's lineups is gonna be impossible <3
