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On January 15 2010 07:42 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 07:33 AttackZerg wrote:On January 15 2010 07:27 Chill wrote:On January 14 2010 11:58 We Are Here wrote:On January 14 2010 06:17 Chill wrote:On January 14 2010 06:08 Foucault wrote:On January 14 2010 01:00 Chill wrote:
Just watched the games. I thought he played pretty well in game 1 actually. Not sure why everyone is saying he played horribly... :O~ Really? Well, lots of small stuff: bad control, timings, leaving medics by the lurkers, loosing lots of sci vessels (due to bad control). Also he didn't do anything that game really and hardly left his nat. Seems like he didn't know what to do at all, wandering around aimlessly with his m&m, being way too defensive. I guess it's easier to see the small stuff if you're a terran player. It's also easy to critically judge small things individually and not look at the whole picture. Edit: My meaning is that people often pick away at the slimmest of details for foreigners. It's really hard to play quickly against a progamer and keep all your timings proper and not get absolutely raped by 2 hatch muta. Which is why I stand by my original comment. even if it was a korean zerg doing 2 hatch muta, the thing is he basically put up no fight in both games. both games he missed his timing window and gave away a 4th gas, so while he probably didnt do too badly like you said, he got beatly really easily which wont leave a good impression =/ edit: the zerg didnt even need his fourth gas -.-'', im not shitting on terran because i want him to do well and eventually go to korea; but he got owned pretty hard I disagree with everything you wrote. Further, I don't know at what point foreigners became ridiculously obsessed with timing, but it has to stop. LOL Dude please explain yourself. Timing is everything ESP timing moving out against two hat muta. If you hit a window or you don't depends on wether you disrupt the zergs tech changes/drone cycles ... everything maybe my b- level of understanding starcraft is wrong but there are HUGE timings involved in TvZ against two hat and if you miss them and never preasure and defend against mutas until post lurker-defiler-4gas you will auto lose ..... Foreigners should just play THEIR style, and try to win with THEIR own abilities. We aren't mindless macrobots or robots. Beyond a few, like IdrA, Terran, and MorroW, there really are no mindless macro foreigners. Stop this obsession with becoming korean styled gamers, and just play the game.
We aren't talking about how we play but the defining moments of high level play in typical situations in which timing plays a MAJOR factor in whether you win or lose.
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On January 15 2010 07:41 AttackZerg wrote:
he said something so ridiculous that I was literally laughing.
Go threw my recent posts it isn't that common but thanks for your insightfull opinion about my tl.net table image.
i dont think he ever said timing wasnt important. Just how everyone all of a sudden became a master at timings.
edit. maybe i shouldnt have bumped this thread
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Uh so people can take this post however they want (I'm only B- high on iccup) but I study Korean timings and such very very rigorously and Juan's timings were not bad in either game.
People saying Juan's timing was off are wrong. And also people who say timing isn't important are wrong too. He didn't lose either game to wrong timing or bad builds.
First game Juan didn't pull his first group of mnm back in time. He left it out in the field for too long and it didn't do enough damage. Unless you power 4rax and constantly reinforce you MUST pull that initial force back before the muta+ling count grows. Like Artosis clearly says in the commentary- from the point he loses his first mnm force he sacrifices map control and it becomes an uphill battle. He nearly was able to break out but lurker numbers were high from that point and the zerg was able to get pretty much an uncontested 4th gas and swarm finished the game.
Second game Juan did much better with his first mnm group in the field (questionable move going for overlord though still managed to take out 3-4 mutas which is fine) but allowed 2 tanks to be picked off by mutas I believe very easily, dealing almost 0 damage to the mutas when they picked off the tanks and then he also lost his first vessel. When you are going for 3tank+vessel pre-hive timing attack and you lose 2 tanks and a vessel that kinda makes the entire attack/timing moot. These are very minor but very deadly mistakes to make and koreans are always good at exploiting them.
Juan plays a very Korean and solid timing based Terran style, I expect him to do very well in TSL.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:33 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 07:27 Chill wrote:On January 14 2010 11:58 We Are Here wrote:On January 14 2010 06:17 Chill wrote:On January 14 2010 06:08 Foucault wrote:On January 14 2010 01:00 Chill wrote:
Just watched the games. I thought he played pretty well in game 1 actually. Not sure why everyone is saying he played horribly... :O~ Really? Well, lots of small stuff: bad control, timings, leaving medics by the lurkers, loosing lots of sci vessels (due to bad control). Also he didn't do anything that game really and hardly left his nat. Seems like he didn't know what to do at all, wandering around aimlessly with his m&m, being way too defensive. I guess it's easier to see the small stuff if you're a terran player. It's also easy to critically judge small things individually and not look at the whole picture. Edit: My meaning is that people often pick away at the slimmest of details for foreigners. It's really hard to play quickly against a progamer and keep all your timings proper and not get absolutely raped by 2 hatch muta. Which is why I stand by my original comment. even if it was a korean zerg doing 2 hatch muta, the thing is he basically put up no fight in both games. both games he missed his timing window and gave away a 4th gas, so while he probably didnt do too badly like you said, he got beatly really easily which wont leave a good impression =/ edit: the zerg didnt even need his fourth gas -.-'', im not shitting on terran because i want him to do well and eventually go to korea; but he got owned pretty hard I disagree with everything you wrote. Further, I don't know at what point foreigners became ridiculously obsessed with timing, but it has to stop. LOL Dude please explain yourself. Timing is everything ESP timing moving out against two hat muta. If you hit a window or you don't depends on wether you disrupt the zergs tech changes/drone cycles ... everything maybe my b- level of understanding starcraft is wrong but there are HUGE timings involved in TvZ against two hat and if you miss them and never preasure and defend against mutas until post lurker-defiler-4gas you will auto lose .....
Timing is fairly important but vastly overhyped. The concept of timing attacks have gotten overused to the point it's basically a meaningless comment. It used to mean shifting your army to be maximized in relation to your opponent's at a very specific time. Now it basically means "Attacking at a time" which means "Attacking". It used to mean so much more.
What is this magical timing window? The time before Lurkers are out? The time before Defilers are out? So be it, it's easier to attack before then, but there's these ridiculous statements implying if you don't move out in this certain window the game is all for naught. That's not true. Timing has been diluted to a nearly meaningless term these days.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:41 AttackZerg wrote:
he said something so ridiculous that I was literally laughing.
Go threw my recent posts it isn't that common but thanks for your insightfull opinion about my tl.net table image.
I am literally not laughing while going throw your posts.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 07:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
He wasnt talking about that. He meant how mostly everyone in their posts all of a sudden talks like they are a master of timings. Like they say oh so and so's timing is off, oh so and so must attack at this timing or hes going to lose, etc. Just like how everyone and their grandma started overusing terms like mechanics and 10/15 a lot. Even jaedong in a recent interview said "Practice spliting your drones perfectly and macroing perfectly so that you can by sure timing alone get lings into a tosses base when you shouldn't theoretically" like a perfect overpool can sneak lings into a greedy tosses base one out of eight time but that one time that it works it was worth it ...
Is that a direct quote?
That's a rhetrocial question because it is so nonsensical I am assured Jaedong did not say that.
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On January 15 2010 08:04 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 07:41 AttackZerg wrote:
he said something so ridiculous that I was literally laughing.
Go threw my recent posts it isn't that common but thanks for your insightfull opinion about my tl.net table image. I am literally not laughing while going throw your posts.
meanie ^^
On January 15 2010 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 07:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
He wasnt talking about that. He meant how mostly everyone in their posts all of a sudden talks like they are a master of timings. Like they say oh so and so's timing is off, oh so and so must attack at this timing or hes going to lose, etc. Just like how everyone and their grandma started overusing terms like mechanics and 10/15 a lot. Even jaedong in a recent interview said "Practice spliting your drones perfectly and macroing perfectly so that you can by sure timing alone get lings into a tosses base when you shouldn't theoretically" like a perfect overpool can sneak lings into a greedy tosses base one out of eight time but that one time that it works it was worth it ...
i never said timing wasnt important;;
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On January 15 2010 08:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:On January 15 2010 07:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
He wasnt talking about that. He meant how mostly everyone in their posts all of a sudden talks like they are a master of timings. Like they say oh so and so's timing is off, oh so and so must attack at this timing or hes going to lose, etc. Just like how everyone and their grandma started overusing terms like mechanics and 10/15 a lot. Even jaedong in a recent interview said "Practice spliting your drones perfectly and macroing perfectly so that you can by sure timing alone get lings into a tosses base when you shouldn't theoretically" like a perfect overpool can sneak lings into a greedy tosses base one out of eight time but that one time that it works it was worth it ... Is that a direct quote? That's a rhetrocial question because it is so nonsensical I am assured Jaedong did not say that.
I misunderstood the quote when he said it but it was vs estro
"- Two Zerglings got in easily in the beginning.
▲ I gain early advantages during practice as well. I was confident in the early game mind games. It's something small as getting two Zerglings in, but it was a result of a lot of practice and calculation. Viewers might not know, but it has a very significant effect. If you concentrate from the moment you split your drones, you can get lucky like that"
I was wrong on this one.
About the timings. Actually chill at the level of modern gameplay there are alot of situations where all is for naught if you do not engage beyond a certain point. Both games were examples of this, he never got outside of his main so zerg was able to freely achieve 'ideal' or 'theoretical' won positions. In modern TvZ if the terran hasn't moved out and preasure the zerg natural or third and allows an early 4th base they will face a never ending series of darkwarms anywhere they push.
Because of the natural of TvZ sure some terrans can make insane comebacks lategame from twobase vs fourbase zerg after lurker/defiler/nydus is established at each base but it is rare.
Thinking that non-koreans should stop focusing on timing is like saying that koreans should worry less about mechanics and use more 'strategic' play. It doesn't make sense. Sure alot of uneducated people pretend to understand or over simplify starcraft through timing but it is definately not an 'obssession that needs to be dropped'.
I am sorry for misquoting jaedong though, I really did extract too much meaning from his answer there although for some reason I've gotten my first two lings in more often then before since I started madly focusing on perfectly macroing earlygame to try and outtime protoss.
(Edit: and my posting history is just fine, aside from calling someone who is anti-chinese a moron. It has all been game/mouse/match/strategy related..... infact I've been far more helpfull then you in the strategy forum lately too!)
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Understanding barracks, upgrade and (later) expansion timing is essential in taking centre control against zerg is TvZ. People are saying timing doesn't matter? Wtf is that...I guess if you're gonna argue that timings such as these are inherent in builds and don't actually constitute as timing attacks.....
Gosi made a few control errors and mis-timed his attempts to take centre control and lost to a 2 hatch zerg. No shocker there. His inability to move out due to macro errors and the fact that he missed the timing window with his first mnm group and lost it cost him his timing in the mid game to take centre control, so zerg got to drone past the 36ish drone mark, giving him more surplus economy, giving him a faster 4th and more zerglings with same tech and less need for defense, which just leads to terran getting run over by ultra or defiler in this game where he just continued to make mistakes. So if zerg can prevent this terran centre control timing it's almost a free win these days.
Timing is probably the most important thing once you get rudimentary macro...It is everything in the meta game. Delaying your opponents defensive timing windows (Read, making them have less shit at your attack timing)is the essence of harrass, and appropriate SCV cut, barracks/factory and expansion timing (Read, giving yourself more shit at your attack timing) is the essence of producing effective attack timings. Once you get your head around that the game seems a whole lot simpler.
I remember reading a Stork interview (after kwanro all inned him with 2 hatch hydra and he defended) a while ago where he actually had such a firm grasp of timings that he said something like "after I killed the drone I knew that a 2 hatch hydra timing would have 10 hydras instead of 12, so I was able to play accordingly, but was surprised that he still went for it as the timing window was weaker".
Interesting discussion anyway. I just thought everyone viewed the games in these terms.
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^Read the thread. No one said anything about how timing doesnt matter.
On January 15 2010 08:45 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 08:05 Chill wrote:On January 15 2010 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:On January 15 2010 07:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
He wasnt talking about that. He meant how mostly everyone in their posts all of a sudden talks like they are a master of timings. Like they say oh so and so's timing is off, oh so and so must attack at this timing or hes going to lose, etc. Just like how everyone and their grandma started overusing terms like mechanics and 10/15 a lot. Even jaedong in a recent interview said "Practice spliting your drones perfectly and macroing perfectly so that you can by sure timing alone get lings into a tosses base when you shouldn't theoretically" like a perfect overpool can sneak lings into a greedy tosses base one out of eight time but that one time that it works it was worth it ... Is that a direct quote? That's a rhetrocial question because it is so nonsensical I am assured Jaedong did not say that. (Edit: and my posting history is just fine, aside from calling someone who is anti-chinese a moron. It has all been game/mouse/match/strategy related..... infact I've been far more helpfull then you in the strategy forum lately too!)
He wasnt talking about your posting history. He was just poking fun that you wrote threw instead of through in your post.
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On January 15 2010 09:37 Ilikestarcraft wrote:^Read the thread. No one said anything about how timing doesnt matter. Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 08:45 AttackZerg wrote:On January 15 2010 08:05 Chill wrote:On January 15 2010 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:On January 15 2010 07:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
He wasnt talking about that. He meant how mostly everyone in their posts all of a sudden talks like they are a master of timings. Like they say oh so and so's timing is off, oh so and so must attack at this timing or hes going to lose, etc. Just like how everyone and their grandma started overusing terms like mechanics and 10/15 a lot. Even jaedong in a recent interview said "Practice spliting your drones perfectly and macroing perfectly so that you can by sure timing alone get lings into a tosses base when you shouldn't theoretically" like a perfect overpool can sneak lings into a greedy tosses base one out of eight time but that one time that it works it was worth it ... Is that a direct quote? That's a rhetrocial question because it is so nonsensical I am assured Jaedong did not say that. (Edit: and my posting history is just fine, aside from calling someone who is anti-chinese a moron. It has all been game/mouse/match/strategy related..... infact I've been far more helpfull then you in the strategy forum lately too!) He wasnt talking about your posting history. He was just poking fun that you wrote threw instead of through in your post.
=( I guess it is even worse that I took it offensively ^^
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 15 2010 08:45 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2010 08:05 Chill wrote:On January 15 2010 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:On January 15 2010 07:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
He wasnt talking about that. He meant how mostly everyone in their posts all of a sudden talks like they are a master of timings. Like they say oh so and so's timing is off, oh so and so must attack at this timing or hes going to lose, etc. Just like how everyone and their grandma started overusing terms like mechanics and 10/15 a lot. Even jaedong in a recent interview said "Practice spliting your drones perfectly and macroing perfectly so that you can by sure timing alone get lings into a tosses base when you shouldn't theoretically" like a perfect overpool can sneak lings into a greedy tosses base one out of eight time but that one time that it works it was worth it ... Is that a direct quote? That's a rhetrocial question because it is so nonsensical I am assured Jaedong did not say that. About the timings. Actually chill at the level of modern gameplay there are alot of situations where all is for naught if you do not engage beyond a certain point. Both games were examples of this, he never got outside of his main so zerg was able to freely achieve 'ideal' or 'theoretical' won positions. In modern TvZ if the terran hasn't moved out and preasure the zerg natural or third and allows an early 4th base they will face a never ending series of darkwarms anywhere they push. Because of the natural of TvZ sure some terrans can make insane comebacks lategame from twobase vs fourbase zerg after lurker/defiler/nydus is established at each base but it is rare. Thinking that non-koreans should stop focusing on timing is like saying that koreans should worry less about mechanics and use more 'strategic' play. It doesn't make sense. Sure alot of uneducated people pretend to understand or over simplify starcraft through timing but it is definately not an 'obssession that needs to be dropped'. I am sorry for misquoting jaedong though, I really did extract too much meaning from his answer there although for some reason I've gotten my first two lings in more often then before since I started madly focusing on perfectly macroing earlygame to try and outtime protoss. (Edit: and my posting history is just fine, aside from calling someone who is anti-chinese a moron. It has all been game/mouse/match/strategy related..... infact I've been far more helpfull then you in the strategy forum lately too!)
I don't mean to harp on this since it's such a non-issue, but I think people lately are really giving too much credit to things being timing-based. There are such things as non-timing attacks, and even in standard games the majority of the decisions are non-timing based.
Timing can only happen in a game you are experienced with. If you've never played 2 Hatch against Fantasy then you have no timings left. If you lose a Barracks against 2 Hatch then you have no timings left. Timing can only happen in a game where you know attacking (or doing whatever) at this relative time gives a higher chance for success. For most people, this means timing only exists in the most standard of games.
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