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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On December 11 2009 14:57 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 10:19 DejaVu119 wrote:
tbh i don't understand the big hoopla. believe me, we are NOT a bunch of B smurfs about to roflstomp ppl. we want to get better and we happen to know each other. just let the team go through. its not going to cause the league to collapse or give any unfair advantage to anyone.
you have coaches that want to help people get better. the league is still in formative stages so might as well make it as inclusive as possible. the league already increased in size from 12-14, so if you want to be hardcore about the rules you have to get rid of teams 13 and 14. Rather than start hacking away and making the league less inclusive, get the teams to a nice round 16 and move on. In 2 months, no one is even going to care or remember. Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 10:29 mark05 wrote:
the point is also that he had been given permission to do that so he got everything rdy top set the team and worked hard last couple days on this... that sucks for him and basically for the whole team who was hyped about it, then u guys changed ur mind
that rly sux Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 10:08 SoulSeeker wrote:
Well if u looked at storr's requested team... half of them are commentators so they would have even less time to practice. Theres no way that a smurf team could get in and stay in. didn't storr get permission for this? so why don't you just give the team a chance? see if it works? if it doesn't... no harm no foul the team is gone.If it does... the more the merrier. But... about the comment saying people would do whatever the hell they want... what could they possibly do during the tourny? =p How about the fact that over 200 people that signed up for the league, and a shitton of them CAME INTO the thread saying "Oh man, I wish I had gotten picked." So now, one coach comes in with a bunch of players who don't even frequent this site and didn't sign up for the league originally, and demands a team. l10f, I can't believe you're really considering this, especially after you saw the reaction for the initial selections of this league. If these six players who didn't originally sign up want to be a part of the league, then put them in the waitlist, form two teams from scratch and let them test their odds.
Do you understand that Storrzerg won't coach if he doesn't get to choose his team. The people on the wait list will not get a chance to play no matter what decision l10f makes.
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On December 11 2009 14:57 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 10:19 DejaVu119 wrote:
tbh i don't understand the big hoopla. believe me, we are NOT a bunch of B smurfs about to roflstomp ppl. we want to get better and we happen to know each other. just let the team go through. its not going to cause the league to collapse or give any unfair advantage to anyone.
you have coaches that want to help people get better. the league is still in formative stages so might as well make it as inclusive as possible. the league already increased in size from 12-14, so if you want to be hardcore about the rules you have to get rid of teams 13 and 14. Rather than start hacking away and making the league less inclusive, get the teams to a nice round 16 and move on. In 2 months, no one is even going to care or remember. Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 10:29 mark05 wrote:
the point is also that he had been given permission to do that so he got everything rdy top set the team and worked hard last couple days on this... that sucks for him and basically for the whole team who was hyped about it, then u guys changed ur mind
that rly sux Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 10:08 SoulSeeker wrote:
Well if u looked at storr's requested team... half of them are commentators so they would have even less time to practice. Theres no way that a smurf team could get in and stay in. didn't storr get permission for this? so why don't you just give the team a chance? see if it works? if it doesn't... no harm no foul the team is gone.If it does... the more the merrier. But... about the comment saying people would do whatever the hell they want... what could they possibly do during the tourny? =p How about the fact that over 200 people that signed up for the league, and a shitton of them CAME INTO the thread saying "Oh man, I wish I had gotten picked." So now, one coach comes in with a bunch of players who don't even frequent this site and didn't sign up for the league originally, and demands a team. l10f, I can't believe you're really considering this, especially after you saw the reaction for the initial selections of this league. If these six players who didn't originally sign up want to be a part of the league, then put them in the waitlist, form two teams from scratch and let them test their odds.
Just cause people don't post doesn't mean they don't visit the site mate, and i refer you to tops posts.
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On December 11 2009 15:05 T.O.P. wrote:Do you understand that Storrzerg won't coach if he doesn't get to choose his team. The people on the wait list will not get a chance to play no matter what decision l10f makes.
Are you supporting the elitism attitude of that then? Like seriously, he's too good to coach anyone else? I'd love to see 6 more people play too, but it shouldn't be conditional because he's got a stick up his ass.
On December 11 2009 15:10 StorrZerg wrote:
Just cause people don't post doesn't mean they don't visit the site mate, and i refer you to tops posts.
The 3 people who I quoted are staffed at SC2GG.
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On December 11 2009 15:15 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 15:05 T.O.P. wrote:Do you understand that Storrzerg won't coach if he doesn't get to choose his team. The people on the wait list will not get a chance to play no matter what decision l10f makes. Are you supporting the elitism attitude of that then? Like seriously, he's too good to coach anyone else? I'd love to see 6 more people play too, but it shouldn't be conditional because he's got a stick up his ass. Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 15:10 StorrZerg wrote:
Just cause people don't post doesn't mean they don't visit the site mate, and i refer you to tops posts.
The 3 people who I quoted are staffed at SC2GG.
so he wants sc2gg staff as his students? O.o
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On December 11 2009 15:41 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 15:15 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On December 11 2009 15:05 T.O.P. wrote:Do you understand that Storrzerg won't coach if he doesn't get to choose his team. The people on the wait list will not get a chance to play no matter what decision l10f makes. Are you supporting the elitism attitude of that then? Like seriously, he's too good to coach anyone else? I'd love to see 6 more people play too, but it shouldn't be conditional because he's got a stick up his ass. On December 11 2009 15:10 StorrZerg wrote:
Just cause people don't post doesn't mean they don't visit the site mate, and i refer you to tops posts.
The 3 people who I quoted are staffed at SC2GG. so he wants sc2gg staff as his students? O.o
their affiliation with another site is not something that should be a concern, they all are D skill level players that would like to get better.
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On December 11 2009 15:49 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 15:41 TheAntZ wrote:On December 11 2009 15:15 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On December 11 2009 15:05 T.O.P. wrote:Do you understand that Storrzerg won't coach if he doesn't get to choose his team. The people on the wait list will not get a chance to play no matter what decision l10f makes. Are you supporting the elitism attitude of that then? Like seriously, he's too good to coach anyone else? I'd love to see 6 more people play too, but it shouldn't be conditional because he's got a stick up his ass. On December 11 2009 15:10 StorrZerg wrote:
Just cause people don't post doesn't mean they don't visit the site mate, and i refer you to tops posts.
The 3 people who I quoted are staffed at SC2GG. so he wants sc2gg staff as his students? O.o their affiliation with another site is not something that should be a concern, they all are D skill level players that would like to get better.
Yeah no it doesnt matter its just funny that all of your chosen students are also staff at sc2gg thats all
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I just want to make something abundantly clear.
Team 12 is already 1-0 over Team 13.
That is all.
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Braavos36399 Posts
Frankly, I'd definitely support a decision to have 15 teams. If StorrZerg will only coach if you let him circumvent the rules and pick his own players, then too bad StorrZerg, you can't coach. I wouldn't let him completely taint the process and fairness (not to mention just insert his friends into the league, cutting many people fairly waiting their turn).
The league is for fun, but it doesn't mean you should allow unfairness to seep in. It ruins the whole "feel" of the league when one team is handpicked. Even if the team is completely fair (all D ranks or whatever), it just sours the whole process. This seems to be a league about making new connections and teaching new players, not about having fun bashing others with your friends.
It's a shame someone "will only coach if he gets to pick his team" which is just taking advantage of everyone and the niceness of the organizers. l10f, I'd fully support you if you made the following decision:
1. StorrZerg coaches a random team among the people fairly waiting their turn
2. StorrZerg doesn't coach
There's no magical 3rd option where he gets to pick his friends, that's complete BS and basically screws everyone on the waitlist.
On December 11 2009 15:05 T.O.P. wrote:
Do you understand that Storrzerg won't coach if he doesn't get to choose his team. The people on the wait list will not get a chance to play no matter what decision l10f makes.
Just because the people on the list aren't impacted doesn't make it right. If you let StorrZerg's unfair team in, all the genuine happy people waiting in line but sad they didn't get picked will essentially be dissatisfied with the league. It ruins enthusiasm, enjoyment, and even screws with the entire mentality of the people already competing.
l10f is very nice and he's great for organizing this, I think its really lame that someone would put an ultimatum on him like "I won't coach if I can't pick my team." That's really taking advantage of him. If you don't want to meet the requirements of coaching, don't coach. What if I wanted to coach and said "l10f let me coach but I only want C- players" or whatever. It shouldn't be allowed and is unfair because it circumvents the selection rules.
If I was l10f I'd say: "I don't want to screw everyone who fairly waited in line, if you want to make a StorrZerg-picks-his-own-team-league, you can start the SPHOTL." In an ideal world, he'd just abide by the rules and coach a random team. If he doesn't want to do that, too bad.
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I'm glad a mod finally stepped in.
However, fifteen teams in unnecessarily hard to organize. (Not saying it's not possible, you could split it into 3 divisions of 5 and do top from each division with one wildcard slot or top two from each division with two wildcard slots. But 5 teams per division seems a little small.)
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Braavos36399 Posts
On December 11 2009 17:27 Saracen wrote:
I'm glad a mod finally stepped in.
However, fifteen teams in unnecessarily hard to organize. (Not saying it's not possible, you could split it into 3 divisions of 5 and do top from each division with one wildcard slot or top two from each division with two wildcard slots. But 5 teams per division seems a little small.)
Just like to say that I'm not the organizer and I can't compel l10f to do anything. But he seems to be too nice to say no, so I felt I had to give my opinion on this.
It's a shame 15 teams is so much harder than 16, but that makes it even more BS that someone would make demands about hand-picking his friends for the 16th team.
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I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all.
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Braavos36399 Posts
On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all.
If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League.
Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line.
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"For those spots for the no-shows (didn't join the team) at the end of tomorrow EST (Means 0:00 EST Saturday) I will start adding people who posted that they still wanted to join beginning from page 1 of this post"
I still want to join! =)
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On December 11 2009 17:34 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all. If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League. Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line.
This.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On December 11 2009 17:34 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all. If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League. Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line.
I agree with the first part. If he doesn't wanna coach unknowns, then he shouldn't sign up to coach. However, I disagree with the last part about being unfair. As mentioned earlier, without StorrZerg, we don't have a 16th team. With him, we do possibly have a 16th team. However, if his team is comprised of all his minions, then everyone on the waitlist is screwed anyways.
So it's either 15 teams, everyone waiting is screwed but still happy, or 16 teams with everyone still screwed, but rather pissed that 6 random nobodies got chosen to play.
Either way, they're screwed, but how they feel about the league will change a ton. True it benefits the league to have an extra team, and true StorrZerg's team wouldn't affect anyone in line. But it's just not right to pick teams in this situation. What about the other coaches? They'd probably love to pick their own teams too.
Mathematically speaking, waitlisters are screwed just as much. However, there's more to it than just math. Either way, it's up to l10f to decide on what's best. Have 16 teams and make it much easier to run, or risk upsetting waitlisters (which may be future CPL players). If CPL goes for more than one season, then the risk of upsetting those waiting in line for a shot isn't worth it IMO.
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Braavos36399 Posts
On December 11 2009 17:43 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 17:34 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all. If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League. Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line. I agree with the first part. If he doesn't wanna coach unknowns, then he shouldn't sign up to coach. However, I disagree with the last part about being unfair. As mentioned earlier, without StorrZerg, we don't have a 16th team. With him, we do possibly have a 16th team. However, if his team is comprised of all his minions, then everyone on the waitlist is screwed anyways.
Would you allow a 16th team that was comprised entirely of C players? What about players who were all from one clan? The bottom line is whatever benefit you get from a 16th team can be outweighed by issues of fairness.
So it's either 15 teams, everyone waiting is screwed but still happy, or 16 teams with everyone still screwed, but rather pissed that 6 random nobodies got chosen to play.
Either way, they're screwed, but how they feel about the league and stuff will change a ton. True it benefits the league to have an extra team, and true StorrZerg's team wouldn't affect anyone in line. But it's just not right to pick teams in this situation. What about the other coaches? They'd probably love to pick their own teams too.
This is exactly why its horribly unfair to those waiting in line. It's not about the pure bottom line effect on them, its about the whole spirit of the league.
Mathematically speaking, waitlisters are screwed just as much. However, there's more to it than just math. Either way, it's up to l10f to decide on what's best. Have 16 teams and make it much easier to run, or risk upsetting waitlisters (which may be future CPL players). If CPL goes for more than one season, then the risk of upsetting those waiting in line for a shot isn't worth it IMO.
It's not just about upsetting people, it's about doing what is fair and what is right. I think this league is awesome and l10f is great for organizing it so well. He's too nice though -- I certainly wouldn't feel the same way about this league's fairness was compromised just for some scheduling convenience.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Well of course I wouldn't allow an all C ranked team. Also, the issue arises that 6 people who didn't sign up get an auto birth without having to undergo the randomization process. If I were on the waitlist, I'd be pissed as hell.
I think if StorrZerg's squad all signed up and were selected, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue.
But I wholeheartedly agree that no one should be above everyone else.
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On December 11 2009 17:47 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 17:43 Roffles wrote:On December 11 2009 17:34 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all. If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League. Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line. I agree with the first part. If he doesn't wanna coach unknowns, then he shouldn't sign up to coach. However, I disagree with the last part about being unfair. As mentioned earlier, without StorrZerg, we don't have a 16th team. With him, we do possibly have a 16th team. However, if his team is comprised of all his minions, then everyone on the waitlist is screwed anyways. Would you allow a 16th team that was comprised entirely of C players? What about players who were all from one clan? The bottom line is whatever benefit you get from a 16th team can be outweighed by issues of fairness. Show nested quote +So it's either 15 teams, everyone waiting is screwed but still happy, or 16 teams with everyone still screwed, but rather pissed that 6 random nobodies got chosen to play.
Either way, they're screwed, but how they feel about the league and stuff will change a ton. True it benefits the league to have an extra team, and true StorrZerg's team wouldn't affect anyone in line. But it's just not right to pick teams in this situation. What about the other coaches? They'd probably love to pick their own teams too. This is exactly why its horribly unfair to those waiting in line. It's not about the pure bottom line effect on them, its about the whole spirit of the league. Show nested quote +Mathematically speaking, waitlisters are screwed just as much. However, there's more to it than just math. Either way, it's up to l10f to decide on what's best. Have 16 teams and make it much easier to run, or risk upsetting waitlisters (which may be future CPL players). If CPL goes for more than one season, then the risk of upsetting those waiting in line for a shot isn't worth it IMO. It's not just about upsetting people, it's about doing what is fair and what is right. I think this league is awesome and l10f is great for organizing it so well. He's too nice though -- I certainly wouldn't feel the same way about this league's fairness was compromised just for some scheduling convenience.
Gesh having a team all C players would be unfair duh, my team meets the rules, 2 d+ max and 2 z 2 p 2 t.
again I was told this would be fine, and that my team would be added. it really isn't that big of an issue as top has said. I'm not screwing out people, all im doing is adding people to the pool.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On December 11 2009 17:55 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 17:47 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 11 2009 17:43 Roffles wrote:On December 11 2009 17:34 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all. If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League. Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line. I agree with the first part. If he doesn't wanna coach unknowns, then he shouldn't sign up to coach. However, I disagree with the last part about being unfair. As mentioned earlier, without StorrZerg, we don't have a 16th team. With him, we do possibly have a 16th team. However, if his team is comprised of all his minions, then everyone on the waitlist is screwed anyways. Would you allow a 16th team that was comprised entirely of C players? What about players who were all from one clan? The bottom line is whatever benefit you get from a 16th team can be outweighed by issues of fairness. So it's either 15 teams, everyone waiting is screwed but still happy, or 16 teams with everyone still screwed, but rather pissed that 6 random nobodies got chosen to play.
Either way, they're screwed, but how they feel about the league and stuff will change a ton. True it benefits the league to have an extra team, and true StorrZerg's team wouldn't affect anyone in line. But it's just not right to pick teams in this situation. What about the other coaches? They'd probably love to pick their own teams too. This is exactly why its horribly unfair to those waiting in line. It's not about the pure bottom line effect on them, its about the whole spirit of the league. Mathematically speaking, waitlisters are screwed just as much. However, there's more to it than just math. Either way, it's up to l10f to decide on what's best. Have 16 teams and make it much easier to run, or risk upsetting waitlisters (which may be future CPL players). If CPL goes for more than one season, then the risk of upsetting those waiting in line for a shot isn't worth it IMO. It's not just about upsetting people, it's about doing what is fair and what is right. I think this league is awesome and l10f is great for organizing it so well. He's too nice though -- I certainly wouldn't feel the same way about this league's fairness was compromised just for some scheduling convenience. Gesh having a team all C players would be unfair duh, my team meets the rules, 2 d+ max and 2 z 2 p 2 t. again I was told this would be fine, and that my team would be added. it really isn't that big of an issue as top has said. I'm not screwing out people, all im doing is adding people to the pool.
However, you're essentially rigging the pool, as your six players have an unfair probability of being chosen. P(Chosen|Your Minions) = 100% whereas P(Chosen|Everyone Else) = 33%.
I don't see how that's fair at all.
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Braavos36399 Posts
On December 11 2009 17:55 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 17:47 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 11 2009 17:43 Roffles wrote:On December 11 2009 17:34 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 11 2009 17:33 eNoq wrote:
I totally agree with Hot_Bid.
And also, i don't think Storrzerg will be too happy if he doesn't get the players he want, which can result in not giving 100% as a coach, and not wanting it so much.. as he would with his own team.
I could be totally wrong ofcourse, maybe he doesn't think that way at all. If he doesn't want to coach D players he doesn't know, he shouldn't sign up to coach the CPL. That's the whole point of it. It's not the Coach-Players-Who-The-Coach-Picks-League. Not to mention its horribly unfair to all those waiting in line. I agree with the first part. If he doesn't wanna coach unknowns, then he shouldn't sign up to coach. However, I disagree with the last part about being unfair. As mentioned earlier, without StorrZerg, we don't have a 16th team. With him, we do possibly have a 16th team. However, if his team is comprised of all his minions, then everyone on the waitlist is screwed anyways. Would you allow a 16th team that was comprised entirely of C players? What about players who were all from one clan? The bottom line is whatever benefit you get from a 16th team can be outweighed by issues of fairness. So it's either 15 teams, everyone waiting is screwed but still happy, or 16 teams with everyone still screwed, but rather pissed that 6 random nobodies got chosen to play.
Either way, they're screwed, but how they feel about the league and stuff will change a ton. True it benefits the league to have an extra team, and true StorrZerg's team wouldn't affect anyone in line. But it's just not right to pick teams in this situation. What about the other coaches? They'd probably love to pick their own teams too. This is exactly why its horribly unfair to those waiting in line. It's not about the pure bottom line effect on them, its about the whole spirit of the league. Mathematically speaking, waitlisters are screwed just as much. However, there's more to it than just math. Either way, it's up to l10f to decide on what's best. Have 16 teams and make it much easier to run, or risk upsetting waitlisters (which may be future CPL players). If CPL goes for more than one season, then the risk of upsetting those waiting in line for a shot isn't worth it IMO. It's not just about upsetting people, it's about doing what is fair and what is right. I think this league is awesome and l10f is great for organizing it so well. He's too nice though -- I certainly wouldn't feel the same way about this league's fairness was compromised just for some scheduling convenience. Gesh having a team all C players would be unfair duh, my team meets the rules, 2 d+ max and 2 z 2 p 2 t. again I was told this would be fine, and that my team would be added. it really isn't that big of an issue as top has said. I'm not screwing out people, all im doing is adding people to the pool.
You are screwing people out because the point of the league is not to pick teams of your friends, its to pair coaches with players who can't get coaches or teammates to practice with. Thats part of the league. If you only want to coach your friends, too bad, don't coach CPL. The reasoning behind "oh we're just adding players" is incredibly twisted and unfair.
Are you saying if we created a 49th spot for the TSL qualifiers and said "well, only Chill can take this spot, otherwise there are 48 spots" are you saying we aren't screwing out everyone else, we're just "adding in a player to the pool?"
What about the CJ shirt lottery, if we make sure the last shirt goes to a staff member, but if we can't give it to a staff member, we burn the shirt? That's not screwing anyone else, its just "adding a shirt to the pool" right?
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EPT
