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Why MSL Group Selection cancelled? - Page 5
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
this is why coke is my beverage of choice | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
On November 06 2009 09:57 StorkHwaiting wrote: What company in their right mind would want to purchase advertising time on a TV show that broadcasted games like Juni versus Spear. And what actual viewership would sit around and want to watch that? There is nothing keeping Starcraft from booming and getting bigger except the fact that the Korean audience only has a set amount of people that want to watch. Korea's population is only so big. You can't justify paying millions of dollars on buying ads and sponsorships if the viewership is only 20-30K ppl. (I don't know the actual viewership but it's never going to be American Idol level simply because there aren't that many Koreans). What your proposing would take a LOT MORE MONEY. The business fundamentals of what you're talking about do not exist. You can't wish these things into being. Minor leagues like in baseball don't work in Starcraft. Baseball has MUCH more money coming in. They can afford to set up an entire league that nobody watches just for the profitability of scouting a star from there. That's how big money is in the sport. Starcraft doesn't have that kind of buying power. That's why the salaries suck ass. That's why the players have no bargaining power. That's why there are NOT that many players and teams period! If the sport drew a lot more money then there would be a lot more teams and there would be a lot more players. Aces wouldn't be so overworked because there would be 30-40 man rosters to choose from. Then again Starcraft will never play like a baseball/football/basketball. You don't have Kobe Bryant playing individual leagues while he's trying to take his team to the playoffs. Starcraft is different. And the reality is the GOOD players right now are being overworked. If you eliminate more and more opportunities there is less and less interest for the mid-level players to work hard to continue pursuing what is already an incredibly difficult career path. You can't neglect 75% of the players to accomodate the talented few. You need those less talented individuals to compose the teams, to serve as practice players, to push those ahead of them. You're thinking purely from the point of view of maximizing the potential viewership for a short period of time. With only one major Starleague for players to practice for and literally no hope for most new players to reach A-team status without giving up years of their lives with literally nothing substantial gained the motivating factors to keep kids interested in becoming progamers would begin to evaporate. Sure, the OSL's/PL's ratings would skyrocket if the MSL became no more, but the overall interest would not increase, and it would merely be the first step towards a failing industry. You need to keep the players at least moderately happy to sustain any league. The fact that salaries for Korean progamers are so low highlights how good the Starleagues work as motivators to keep these kids interested in pursuing such a profession. With a shrinking pool of leagues, and little to no real income gained, how many of them could justify giving up years when they could be in school to continue playing a computer game? | ||
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toopham
United States551 Posts
On November 06 2009 05:04 StorrZerg wrote: that suckksssss TT Blizzard should sponsor it LOL Blizzard should sponsor it under the condition that they stream it online for foreigners to see. AND provide english commentary with Artosis and Tasteless and SuperdanielMan. | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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nadafanboy42
Netherlands209 Posts
On November 06 2009 09:57 StorkHwaiting wrote: What company in their right mind would want to purchase advertising time on a TV show that broadcasted games like Juni versus Spear. And what actual viewership would sit around and want to watch that? There is nothing keeping Starcraft from booming and getting bigger except the fact that the Korean audience only has a set amount of people that want to watch. Korea's population is only so big. You can't justify paying millions of dollars on buying ads and sponsorships if the viewership is only 20-30K ppl. (I don't know the actual viewership but it's never going to be American Idol level simply because there aren't that many Koreans). What your proposing would take a LOT MORE MONEY. The business fundamentals of what you're talking about do not exist. You can't wish these things into being. Minor leagues like in baseball don't work in Starcraft. Baseball has MUCH more money coming in. They can afford to set up an entire league that nobody watches just for the profitability of scouting a star from there. That's how big money is in the sport. Starcraft doesn't have that kind of buying power. That's why the salaries suck ass. That's why the players have no bargaining power. That's why there are NOT that many players and teams period! If the sport drew a lot more money then there would be a lot more teams and there would be a lot more players. Aces wouldn't be so overworked because there would be 30-40 man rosters to choose from. Then again Starcraft will never play like a baseball/football/basketball. You don't have Kobe Bryant playing individual leagues while he's trying to take his team to the playoffs. Starcraft is different. And the reality is the GOOD players right now are being overworked. Yes, exactly. Right now Starcraft doesn't have that buying power. The current scene is stuck in between being a small sport that can only support a single league, and bigger one that can support two leagues. You are saying that the right choice is to scale down and go back to being a small sport. I feel that this is taking a step backwards. You should never want to take a step backwards. Maybe you are right and the Korean audience is too small, but then that is exactly why GOM is so important and KeSPA is being an idiot for blocking it. From what I've heard GOM has been very successful, and if TeamLiquid's massive growth over the years is anything to consider there's still a huge potential fan base of foreigners left untapped. I'd rather see Starcraft try and think big and expand overseas to get the fanbase it needs to support a more balanced set-up, before retreating to a save niche position and stagnate. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
As time has proven, an industry can only thrive if there is competition. GOM, while the least prestigious and the least important, was nonetheless a separate entity that strives to attract fanbase in its own fashion. Competition creates wealth and benefits to the players. The introduction of the Blizzard sponsorship marked something new to the E-Sports industry: the maker of a game sponsoring and promoting its own game as a sport industry. From my perspective, if Blizzard's bid was successful, there could potentially be a revolution to the E-Sports industry. Other companies could have followed suit. With greater financial and manpower into the e-sports industry, e-sports could become global and the players would be able to receive better treatment. Competition always benefits the consumers and the players. What e-sports could do in order to grow is by trying to reach out to the fans a bit more. From what I have seen, e-sport does not hold many events that are strictly for the benefits of the fans. Personally, I don't think that the players are being overworked. You guys are getting the IMPRESSION that players are being overworked because we only care about the BIG guys who always do so well in all three leagues. Of course, they are being overworked. However, you have to keep in mind that those star players are the minority. Most players, who we never hear or care about, are far from being overworked. Instead, the little guys WANT more work in order to expose themselves to the public. Storkhwaiting's arguments are seriously redundant because they are as uninformed as hell. A greater number of leagues give more opportunities and give more players opportunities to shed light upon themselves. GOM did not have to go away at all. More leagues give players better hope at achieving something. That opportunity will attract more players in the future into the industry, players with talents. Nobody will give up their lives for a game if they don't believe that they can go somewhere with it. EDIT: Sponsors of the progaming teams are simply interested in advertising themselves to THEIR SELECTIVE AUDIENCE. A company like SK Telecom has no interest in the foreign scene because the market that they are trying to sell cellphone service to is Korea. They do not stand to gain as much as the game makers if the game that they are sponsoring becomes more famous. That's why makers of the games need to be involved, as they are most likely interested in making their own games bigger, reach wider audience and increase their reputation. That's why competition is necessary, in order to bring about changes. That's why GOM is necessary. That is why there should be more leagues, sponsored by companies with different interest. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On November 06 2009 06:21 Nevuk wrote: If GOM got canceled because of Kespa and the msl winds up not happening, I will be annoyed. I'm with Nevuk with this. If one Starleague gets canceled because of KeSPA and another gets canceled because of politics, then it's purely politics. Which is just annoying. If no MSL happens, the OSL/Starleague games will be that much better I guess. If it makes anyone feel better, should the MSL not happen, KeSPA just shot itself in the foot. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
The audience give more money so the sport can grow, but at the same time players might not be as motivated to practice as much because it will be nearly impossible for them to achiev something. On the other hand, winning the only Starleague is much more attractive to the players than winning one of 2 Starleagues. So I don't really know what to think. If one goes, the remaining has to expand alot in terms of prizemoney etc for starcraft to survive. | ||
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p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
At this stage none of this banter we're having really matters - the fate of StarCraft in Korea will lie with SC2 anyways. If it succeeds then there will be continued expansion/growth, and if it doesn't then the industry will become a smaller and smaller niche. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On November 06 2009 10:53 p4NDemik wrote: Agreed Stylish. The OSL/PL would have to become massively popular to conteract a major player in the BW scene just dropping of the scene. At this stage none of this banter we're having really matters - the fate of StarCraft in Korea will lie with SC2 anyways. If it succeeds then there will be continued expansion/growth, and if it doesn't then the industry will become a smaller and smaller niche. Starcraft community isn't getting smaller so thats good. There are more and more progamers around. I predict that sc2 will be just another game. They might have separate leagues for it, but it won't go mainstream. Thats only my speculation, so yea. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
Hmm yes, I like the sound of that. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On November 06 2009 10:14 dukethegold wrote: You know. I still don't know what EVER sells... phones iirc | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
edit : I would be force this mostly as just a way to watch what crazy builds players could come up with for some maps that don't get played on enough in the different matchups - Outsider is a map that still doesn't have a standard TvT play style due to how rare they are on it. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On November 06 2009 10:57 MuffinDude wrote: Aww don't fail on me now msl. This is the only league that jangbi does well in. =( and if you go away, stork can't get his double gold. Starcraft community isn't getting smaller so thats good. There are more and more progamers around. I predict that sc2 will be just another game. They might have separate leagues for it, but it won't go mainstream. Thats only my speculation, so yea. you guys are talking about a nation that still uses internet explorer 6.0 and windows xp. this is a stereotype but there is truth it: koreans stick to what they know and what they feel they have a connection or 정 with. they won't move over to sc2 even if it's better. maybe after a year or two some people will start to switch over, but i'm willing to bet that sc2 won't replace starcraft, it'll just compete with it. simply put, MSL having a late sponsor is nothing new and is not a sign of diminishing demand for BW. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
What e-sports could do in order to grow is by trying to reach out to the fans a bit more. From what I have seen, e-sport does not hold many events that are strictly for the benefits of the fans. you obviously haven't seen much. the problem with the non-korean "esports" scene is that they haven't figured out what the Koreans do best --> market to girls. ANd the reason why so many girls like starcraft is exactly because of the numerous "fan benefit" events available, which you should know of if you follow TL as NEverGG takes pics of every one.. That's why makers of the games need to be involved, as they are most likely interested in making their own games bigger, reach wider audience and increase their reputation. That's why competition is necessary, in order to bring about changes. if broodwar had been left to the hands of blizzard there would have been NO WAY it would have gotten big as it has now. blizzard is great at making games but they have had no idea how to market it to nongamers or to make consistent tournaments. the only reason why blizzard is even able to partake in the scene now is because of the innovations by Kespa and the Korean E-sports scene. BLizzard made the game, yes. But everything else afterwards, including the gaming innovations, tournament format, television channel, marketing to soft-core or even nongamers, and etc... that's all done by the koreans. but after all that hard work, you expect them to just give it back to BLizzard? GOM did not have to go away at all. Stop trying to make GOM seem like such an innocent victim here. Pretend this was the NFL and there was the XFL or UFL: The NFL will make sure its players will not play for both a competeing league and their own. In similar fashion, players under the KESPA umbrella of leagues/tournaments will be prevented from participating in tournaments sponsored by another league. Cuz this is exactly what GOM was trying to do: they weren't trying to just make a tournament, but make a competing league. You guys might complain about monopoly and extol the virtues of capitalism but wake the fuck up :basketball football baseball all work under a similar monopoly-style structure. Competition does not equate to innovation, nor does YOUR opinion or desires of esports have an effect on what KESPA wants to do. KESPA is a business and has every right to be defensive of their business, not just because other sports follow a similar business practice, but also because WEMADE (the koreans) the best league of any game in the entire world. | ||
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RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
On November 06 2009 10:19 p4NDemik wrote: If you eliminate more and more opportunities there is less and less interest for the mid-level players to work hard to continue pursuing what is already an incredibly difficult career path. You can't neglect 75% of the players to accomodate the talented few. You need those less talented individuals to compose the teams, to serve as practice players, to push those ahead of them. You're thinking purely from the point of view of maximizing the potential viewership for a short period of time. With only one major Starleague for players to practice for and literally no hope for most new players to reach A-team status without giving up years of their lives with literally nothing substantial gained the motivating factors to keep kids interested in becoming progamers would begin to evaporate. Sure, the OSL's/PL's ratings would skyrocket if the MSL became no more, but the overall interest would not increase, and it would merely be the first step towards a failing industry. You need to keep the players at least moderately happy to sustain any league. The fact that salaries for Korean progamers are so low highlights how good the Starleagues work as motivators to keep these kids interested in pursuing such a profession. With a shrinking pool of leagues, and little to no real income gained, how many of them could justify giving up years when they could be in school to continue playing a computer game? Going by that logic you should add more starleagues. Obviously there will be a point where there are too many leagues and starcraft's popularity will start to decline, I think there real argument is that people believe that the turning point is when there are more than two leagues. | ||
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OreoBoi
Canada1639 Posts
Kimchi MSL? If Blizzard sponsored an MSL, they should call it the "Starcraft 2" MSL. Oh well, if theres no MSL, maybe Flash won't have to work as hard and he'll win an OSL title ^_^ | ||
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On November 06 2009 13:13 OreoBoi wrote: Macdonald's MSL? Kimchi MSL? If Blizzard sponsored an MSL, they should call it the "Starcraft 2" MSL. Oh well, if theres no MSL, maybe Flash won't have to work as hard and he'll win an OSL title ^_^ i lol'd | ||
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
On November 06 2009 09:17 iLoveKT wrote: hahahahaha that's a funny way to look at this. made me smile.Bisu is screwed lol. | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
On November 06 2009 12:18 d_so wrote: blizzard is great at making games but they have had no idea how to market it to nongamers Tell that to all the soccer moms and girls I'd never expect playing any games that are on WoW right now. | ||
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