In 2009 (an admittedly arbitrary time period), Bisu's PvP has been just over 80%, while his PvZ has been only about 66%, and Jaedong's ZvZ has been 76%.

It is a fact that, nowadays, Bisu's PvP is his best matchup. It is also not a stretch to say that, nowadays, Bisu's PvP is comparable to Jaedong's ZvZ.

motbob

United States12546 Posts

September 15 2009 13:37 GMT

#25

On September 15 2009 22:20 monstar123 wrote:

Show nested quote +

right now

Bisu's best mu is PvP ,everybody knows it. His PvP is like (Z)

Jaedong's zvz.

Since we are looking at historical records, what Bisu's best MU is currently is pretty irrelevant.

...on another note, I've always thought that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP, despite his stats. Just look at who has knocked him out in MSLs, OSLs, and GSLs in BoX matches:

MBC Survivor 10th: 0-2 to (P)

free[gm]
2007 1st OGN Dual Tournament: 1-2 to (P)

Much
2007 OGN StarChallege Season 1: 1-3 to (P)

Rock
2008 Bacchus OSL: 1-2 to (T)

Flash
2008 Arena MSL: 0-3 to (T)

fOrGG (insert that famous map stats picture here

)
2008 ClubDay MSL: 1-2 to (P)

free[gm]
Gom Classic Season 2: 1-2 to (P)

Tempest
Gom Classic Season 3: 0-3 to (Z)

EffOrt
2009 Avalon MSL: 1-2 to (Z)

Calm

...he keeps losing to random Protosses. When he loses to other races in a BoX, their always top-tier. But Tempest? Rock?

nK)Duke

Germany936 Posts

September 15 2009 13:40 GMT

#26

On September 15 2009 21:52 alffla wrote:
jaedong bonjwa ez....

savior overcame map imbalance why cant bisu rofl noob.....

this

boe_N

United States57 Posts

September 15 2009 13:40 GMT

#27

Interestingly enough, Jaedong is 4:0 vs. Bisu on the "Fair" or "Somewhat Fair" maps, and Bisu's wins occurred on all of the zerg-favored maps, including the infamous neo harmony.

I wouldn't try to extrapolate too much from these map statistics, in other words. Maps obviously play a factor, but there's a lot more going on.

cosiant

Canada616 Posts

September 15 2009 13:47 GMT

#28

As long as they produce good games, who cares who wins... except the fanboys.

Foucault

Sweden2826 Posts

September 15 2009 13:52 GMT

#29

Ugh people discussing map balance should do everyone a favor and never become scientists because it's all RIDICULOUS.

If a map is 3-9 PvZ it doesn't mean that it's imbalanced. It has probably the most to do with the skill level of the players. People are really quite stupid about this too often. Also you can't read anything into that small size of a sample. Even a couple of hundred games is almost too little to determine map balance only, because so many other factors count.

AzureEye

United States1360 Posts

September 15 2009 13:53 GMT

#30

I dont know about just this year but overall, Bisu's PvZ has historically been his best matchup. Not to mention he revolutionized that matchup. Everyone knows Bisu for his PvZ. So please stop trying to say otherwise

Foucault

Sweden2826 Posts

September 15 2009 13:53 GMT

#31

On September 15 2009 22:29 Dfgj wrote:
Bisu's PvZ in 2009 is statistically his worst, I believe. Which shows... nothing, given the timeframe the JD:Bisu stats are covering.

Actually, I think most protoss players have PvZ as their statistically worst matchup lol

Go think about that instead of what maps are being used

Foucault

Sweden2826 Posts

September 15 2009 13:58 GMT

#32

On September 15 2009 21:52 alffla wrote:
jaedong bonjwa ez....

savior overcame map imbalance why cant bisu rofl noob.....

Awesome post.

The reason is that PvZ for any protoss, including Bisu, will always be harder to dominate than ZvT. Both considered the "hard" MU for the respective races.

Not so hard to figure out

o[twist]

United States4903 Posts

September 15 2009 13:59 GMT

#33

of course zerg tends to be slightly overpowered vP, just like protoss tends to vT and terran tends to vZ. it's odd of course given that that jaedong tends to have some trouble with players like bisu, stork, and free, but he's the dominant player of our era. sort of silly to start a bonjwa argument while no games are being played after jaedong won a golden mouse

Geo.Rion

7377 Posts

September 15 2009 14:01 GMT

#34

Bisu's best MU against JD's "weakest".
Also remember the HBR game? Accidently canceled Spire? Doesn't quit reflecets skills. I dont say it shouldn't be counted, but stats like this just aren't saying anything.
Better get JD's ZvP stats on these maps against Bisu's PvZ maps. Than cry about how Bisu lost because of the maps.
These kind of "statistics" make me sick

Dfgj

Singapore5922 Posts

September 15 2009 14:01 GMT

#35

On September 15 2009 22:53 Foucault wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually, I think most protoss players have PvZ as their statistically worst matchup lol

Pretty much. Not sure how that impacts the points raised in any way, though.

baubo

China3370 Posts

September 15 2009 14:03 GMT

#36

Not particular important. But I believe Bisu v Jaedong on Blue Storm was back when it was the OLD Blue Storm. One where you can't defend against mutas, so zergs just rape. And since the new version, PvZ became much easier. So it was actually zerg favored for a while before it became protoss favored. Hence the end TLPD result seemed balanced(one reason I'm glad newer version of maps these days are considered separate in terms of statistics).

On September 15 2009 22:19 7mk wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well Bisu is most infamous for his PvZ but I still agree with you, he also says he is most comfortable against Zerg, but I don't think it's his best matchup.

Show nested quote +

Yeah that's true I mean if you look at how Zerg has just completely thoroughly dominated last season, and if you then look at the map pool... it's not like the map pool is so incredibly Zergloving and Protoss hating, certainly also has something to do with for example how 5/6 Dragons just decided to start playing bad.

Weird logic. So you feel it's more likely that 5 very good players decide that they should randomly start sucking at the same time for a long period of time... rather than maps which produced ZvZs everywhere and allowed zergs such as Kwanro and type-b to become near SL winners?

I'm not saying you're wrong, because none of us are close enough to progamers to know the real answer. But it just seems like a weird assumption.

Camlito

Australia4040 Posts

September 15 2009 14:05 GMT

#37

On September 15 2009 22:58 Foucault wrote:

Show nested quote +

Awesome post.

The reason is that PvZ for any protoss, including Bisu, will always be harder to dominate than ZvT. Both considered the "hard" MU for the respective races.

Not so hard to figure out

Dominating has nothing to do with 1 player overcoming map imbalance for a time period.

RamenStyle

United States1929 Posts

September 15 2009 14:06 GMT

#38

I think JD's ZvZ dominance has more merit than Bisu's PvP. PvP is a match were historically the gap between players could be noticed and translated into game results. On the contrary, ZvZ is a MU that before JD it was regarded as a high variance MU. Not a coinflip, but one of the most used strats in PL was sending some Z to snipe an ace zerg. JD has made that strat invalid, at least in his case, and although there have been PvP monsters before with ridiculous PvP win ratios, no one had dominated ZvZ at all, not to mention like JD is doing now.

7mk

Germany10157 Posts

September 15 2009 14:11 GMT

#39

Btw thanks Mr.Hoon for the translation :p