Shiny Milky Skin wrote: 종류 승자 패자 맵 리그 상세 날짜 김택용(P) 이제동(Z) 단장의능선 1.1 신한은행 프로리그 08-09 5R 7회차 5경기 09-06-07 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) 안드로메다 곰TV 클래식 스페셜 매치 스페셜 매치 5경기 09-03-01 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) 콜로세움2 곰TV 클래식 스페셜 매치 스페셜 매치 4경기 09-03-01 김택용(P) 이제동(Z) 메두사 1.1 곰TV 클래식 스페셜 매치 스페셜 매치 3경기 09-03-01 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) 데스티네이션 1.1 곰TV 클래식 스페셜 매치 스페셜 매치 2경기 09-03-01 김택용(P) 이제동(Z) 안드로메다 곰TV 클래식 스페셜 매치 스페셜 매치 1경기 09-03-01 김택용(P) 이제동(Z) 신청풍명월 2.1 신한은행 프로리그 08-09 3R 26회차 5경기 09-02-28 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) 데스티네이션 1.1 신한은행 프로리그 08-09 2R 19회차 5경기 08-12-23 김택용(P) 이제동(Z) 안드로메다 신한은행 프로리그 2008 56회차 1경기 08-06-28 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) 콜로세움 아레나 MSL 32강 A조 최종전 08-05-01 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) 오델로 아레나 MSL 32강 A조 1경기 08-05-01 이제동(Z) 김택용(P) Blue Storm 곰TV MSL 시즌4 32강 B조 1경기 08-01-08 김택용(P) 이제동(Z) 신 백두대간 제2회 KeSPA컵 4강 B조 르까프 vs MBC게임 2경기 07-03-10
Shiny Milky Skin wrote: Here are the stats of WINNER and LOSER, then game and then date Bisu vs Jaedong | Heartbreak Ridge | Shinhan Proleague 08-09 | 09-06-07 Jaedong vs Bisu | Andromeda | GOM Classic Special Match | 09-03-01 Jaedong vs Bisu | Colosseum II | GOM Classic Special Match | 09-03-01 Bisu vs Jaedong | Medusa | GOM Classic Special Match | 09-03-01 Jaedong vs Bisu | Destination | GOM Classic Special Match | 09-03-01 Bisu vs Jaedong | Andromeda | GOM Classic Special Match | 09-03-01 Bisu vs Jaedong | Neo Harmony 2.1 | Shinhan Proleague 08-09 | 09-02-28 Jaedong vs Bisu | Destination | Shinhan Proleague 08-09 | 08-12-23 Bisu vs Jaedong | Andromeda | Shinhan Proleague 2008 | 08-06-28 Jaedong vs Bisu | Colosseum | Arena MSL | 08-05-01 Jaedong vs Bisu | Othello | Arena MSL | 08-05-01 Jaedong vs Bisu | Blue Storm | GOMTV MSL s4 | 08-01-08 Bisu vs Jaedong | Sin Peaks of Baekdu | 2nd Kespa Cup | 07-03-10
Okay guys, lets dissect some of the maps
Sin Peaks of Baekdu (106:138) => 57% Zerg Map Blue Strom(160:159) => "Fair" Map Othello (23:22) => "Fair" Map Colosseum II (74:81) => "Fair" Map, but only by a little (Zerg is 52%) Andromeda (95:126) => 57% Zerg Map Destination (133:148) => 53% Zerg Map Neo Harmony (9:21) => 70% GAY ZERG MAP Medusa (136:189) => 58% Zerg Map Heartbreak Ridge (39:56) => 59% Zerg Map
13 Clashes 8 On Zerg Maps 1 On Gay Zerg Map 2 On Somewhat Fair Zerg Maps 2 Fair Maps 0 Toss Maps
Once again the biased statistics. You cant simply deduce that a map favors a race because it has won more times in it. There are many other factors at work.
I think Bisu is an awesome player, but that does not take credit away from Jaedong being awesome as well.
Nonetheless, I am biased too, since I am a Bisu fan and a Protoss player. I will find Bisu the best player ever just because he was the first to bring Protoss to #1 KeSPA :D
I guess deep down, both Bisu and Jaedong are awesome at killing Zergs lol So if you want to become the best, kill a lot of zergs :p
On September 15 2009 21:51 BookTwo wrote: fanboys 321 go
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
On September 15 2009 21:52 alffla wrote: jaedong bonjwa ez....
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
Every matchup that jaedong looses in is his worst, you know that...
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
You can't only look at stats now, Bisu's PvZ was always good and his PvP was only recently as good as it is now. Same goes for Jaedong's ZvT and ZvP respectively. Jaedong had like 50% ZvP in his early days.
Yeah, I think overall Zergs have had it easy with the map pool in recent months. However the statistics wouldn't be nearly as off if it wasn't for Protosses playing awful against Zerg, independent of the maps.
But I have to wonder...with so many of the world's best Protosses struggling in PvZ significantly more than in their other matchups, there must be something to recent Z>>P imbalance that's more than just "Protoss players have sucked lately".
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
Well Bisu is most infamous for his PvZ but I still agree with you, he also says he is most comfortable against Zerg, but I don't think it's his best matchup.
On September 15 2009 21:55 Leath wrote: Once again the biased statistics. You cant simply deduce that a map favors a race because it has won more times in it. There are many other factors at work.
Yeah that's true I mean if you look at how Zerg has just completely thoroughly dominated last season, and if you then look at the map pool... it's not like the map pool is so incredibly Zergloving and Protoss hating, certainly also has something to do with for example how 5/6 Dragons just decided to start playing bad. It's not like those guys' PvT was too amazing in that time either, of course with some rare exceptions at some games, people like Stork can always start playing great out of the blue
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
right now Bisu's best mu is PvP ,everybody knows it. His PvP is like Jaedong's zvz.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
EDIT: should be "has historically been"
right now Bisu's best mu is PvP everybody know it. His PvP is like Jaedong's zvz.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
What are you talking about? Certainly not, storks best mu is undoubtedly PvT
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
Just look at the statistics. Bisu is 80% PvP this year. And nobody is not confused by Bisu>Stork. It was obvious.
In 2009 (an admittedly arbitrary time period), Bisu's PvP has been just over 80%, while his PvZ has been only about 66%, and Jaedong's ZvZ has been 76%.
It is a fact that, nowadays, Bisu's PvP is his best matchup. It is also not a stretch to say that, nowadays, Bisu's PvP is comparable to Jaedong's ZvZ.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
right now Bisu's best mu is PvP ,everybody knows it. His PvP is like Jaedong's zvz.
Since we are looking at historical records, what Bisu's best MU is currently is pretty irrelevant.
...on another note, I've always thought that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP, despite his stats. Just look at who has knocked him out in MSLs, OSLs, and GSLs in BoX matches:
MBC Survivor 10th: 0-2 to free[gm] 2007 1st OGN Dual Tournament: 1-2 to Much 2007 OGN StarChallege Season 1: 1-3 to Rock 2008 Bacchus OSL: 1-2 to Flash 2008 Arena MSL: 0-3 to fOrGG (insert that famous map stats picture here ) 2008 ClubDay MSL: 1-2 to free[gm] Gom Classic Season 2: 1-2 to Tempest Gom Classic Season 3: 0-3 to EffOrt 2009 Avalon MSL: 1-2 to Calm
...he keeps losing to random Protosses. When he loses to other races in a BoX, their always top-tier. But Tempest? Rock?
Interestingly enough, Jaedong is 4:0 vs. Bisu on the "Fair" or "Somewhat Fair" maps, and Bisu's wins occurred on all of the zerg-favored maps, including the infamous neo harmony.
I wouldn't try to extrapolate too much from these map statistics, in other words. Maps obviously play a factor, but there's a lot more going on.
Ugh people discussing map balance should do everyone a favor and never become scientists because it's all RIDICULOUS.
If a map is 3-9 PvZ it doesn't mean that it's imbalanced. It has probably the most to do with the skill level of the players. People are really quite stupid about this too often. Also you can't read anything into that small size of a sample. Even a couple of hundred games is almost too little to determine map balance only, because so many other factors count.
I dont know about just this year but overall, Bisu's PvZ has historically been his best matchup. Not to mention he revolutionized that matchup. Everyone knows Bisu for his PvZ. So please stop trying to say otherwise
On September 15 2009 22:29 Dfgj wrote: Bisu's PvZ in 2009 is statistically his worst, I believe. Which shows... nothing, given the timeframe the JD:Bisu stats are covering.
Actually, I think most protoss players have PvZ as their statistically worst matchup lol
Go think about that instead of what maps are being used
The reason is that PvZ for any protoss, including Bisu, will always be harder to dominate than ZvT. Both considered the "hard" MU for the respective races.
of course zerg tends to be slightly overpowered vP, just like protoss tends to vT and terran tends to vZ. it's odd of course given that that jaedong tends to have some trouble with players like bisu, stork, and free, but he's the dominant player of our era. sort of silly to start a bonjwa argument while no games are being played after jaedong won a golden mouse
Bisu's best MU against JD's "weakest". Also remember the HBR game? Accidently canceled Spire? Doesn't quit reflecets skills. I dont say it shouldn't be counted, but stats like this just aren't saying anything. Better get JD's ZvP stats on these maps against Bisu's PvZ maps. Than cry about how Bisu lost because of the maps. These kind of "statistics" make me sick
On September 15 2009 22:29 Dfgj wrote: Bisu's PvZ in 2009 is statistically his worst, I believe. Which shows... nothing, given the timeframe the JD:Bisu stats are covering.
Actually, I think most protoss players have PvZ as their statistically worst matchup lol
Pretty much. Not sure how that impacts the points raised in any way, though.
Not particular important. But I believe Bisu v Jaedong on Blue Storm was back when it was the OLD Blue Storm. One where you can't defend against mutas, so zergs just rape. And since the new version, PvZ became much easier. So it was actually zerg favored for a while before it became protoss favored. Hence the end TLPD result seemed balanced(one reason I'm glad newer version of maps these days are considered separate in terms of statistics).
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
Well Bisu is most infamous for his PvZ but I still agree with you, he also says he is most comfortable against Zerg, but I don't think it's his best matchup.
On September 15 2009 21:55 Leath wrote: Once again the biased statistics. You cant simply deduce that a map favors a race because it has won more times in it. There are many other factors at work.
Yeah that's true I mean if you look at how Zerg has just completely thoroughly dominated last season, and if you then look at the map pool... it's not like the map pool is so incredibly Zergloving and Protoss hating, certainly also has something to do with for example how 5/6 Dragons just decided to start playing bad.
Weird logic. So you feel it's more likely that 5 very good players decide that they should randomly start sucking at the same time for a long period of time... rather than maps which produced ZvZs everywhere and allowed zergs such as Kwanro and type-b to become near SL winners?
I'm not saying you're wrong, because none of us are close enough to progamers to know the real answer. But it just seems like a weird assumption.
The reason is that PvZ for any protoss, including Bisu, will always be harder to dominate than ZvT. Both considered the "hard" MU for the respective races.
Not so hard to figure out
Dominating has nothing to do with 1 player overcoming map imbalance for a time period.
I think JD's ZvZ dominance has more merit than Bisu's PvP. PvP is a match were historically the gap between players could be noticed and translated into game results. On the contrary, ZvZ is a MU that before JD it was regarded as a high variance MU. Not a coinflip, but one of the most used strats in PL was sending some Z to snipe an ace zerg. JD has made that strat invalid, at least in his case, and although there have been PvP monsters before with ridiculous PvP win ratios, no one had dominated ZvZ at all, not to mention like JD is doing now.
lets face it: 13 matches with a record of 6-7 dont mean anything. the question of who is the better player simply cant be answered by the matches played so far, it remains open. as (iirc) both of them said: this is not done yet.
and it kind of became a running gag that matches between bisu and jd and a bo5 in particular are one of the matchups most desired by the fans and yet whenever they come close one of them fails in the last minute. (bisu vs fantasy, bisu vs iris, jd vs stork, jd vs fantasy; just to name the most recent ones....)
On September 15 2009 22:52 Foucault wrote: Ugh people discussing map balance should do everyone a favor and never become scientists because it's all RIDICULOUS.
If a map is 3-9 PvZ it doesn't mean that it's imbalanced. It has probably the most to do with the skill level of the players. People are really quite stupid about this too often. Also you can't read anything into that small size of a sample. Even a couple of hundred games is almost too little to determine map balance only, because so many other factors count.
I'm sure scientists are suppose to study statistics like that to create hypotheses, and then prove those hypotheses. Nowhere in this thread are people claiming that a 3-9 PvZ map is imbalanced. The least amount of games played on one map is a 9:21 PvZ record on Neo Harmony. Instead of saying the sample size is too small, question why there were only 30 games played PvZ on this map. This map was probably taken out after one round, much like Battle Royal because of the imbalance. Also, if YellOw[ArnC] can beat a protoss, I'm quite certain it is not 100% balanced map.
In regards to Jaedong vs Bisu, I think their skill level is equal, and in any game either play can win. However, I believe Jaedong is mentally tougher than Bisu, which gets him more BoX wins. Also doesn't help that Bisu keeps losing to people he shouldn't in starleagues.
On September 15 2009 22:59 o[twist] wrote: of course zerg tends to be slightly overpowered vP, just like protoss tends to vT and terran tends to vZ. it's odd of course given that that jaedong tends to have some trouble with players like bisu, stork, and free, but he's the dominant player of our era. sort of silly to start a bonjwa argument while no games are being played after jaedong won a golden mouse
Everything about your post is true except P=T my friend
The thesis in the OP is that Jaedong does not fit the definition of a Bonjwa (dominant player with no equal) and that Bisu is at least his equal if not slightly superior to him as an overall player, and I agree with it.
Sin Peaks of Baekdu (106:138) => 57% Zerg Map Blue Strom(160:159) => "Fair" Map Othello (23:22) => "Fair" Map Colosseum II (74:81) => "Fair" Map, but only by a little (Zerg is 52%) Andromeda (95:126) => 57% Zerg Map Destination (133:148) => 53% Zerg Map Neo Harmony (9:21) => 70% GAY ZERG MAP Medusa (136:189) => 58% Zerg Map Heartbreak Ridge (39:56) => 59% Zerg Map
my favorite part about the OP is how it calls medusa/destination/heartbreak zerg maps. especially Desti at only 53% statistically LOL
Whats sad is that Bisu is undoubtedly the best PvZer right now, but there are still a lot of zergs that could probably beat him in a Bo5: JD, zero, hero (LOL from zero to hero!), July....
I do not understand some of the conclusions people are making in this thread. Bisu and Jaedong played on either fairly balanced or Zerg favoured maps and their score is almost even, yet that makes Jaedong the much superior player. What the hell? How do the given facts even logically support such a conclusion?
In any case, Bisu and Jaedong are fairly even in terms of skill. Infact, that is the reason why fans love watching their games, beacuse they are so even in a lot of things. They are of roughly the same age, both are the best players of their respective races, both made a breakthrough on the scene in the same year at the expense of other successful players, both are well-known for one particular matchup, both are excellent in multitasking...it is scary, really. So whenever these two enter the booths at the same time, you can preety much be certain that an earth-shattering game is about to follow (certain hickups such as Bisu`s failed block and Jaedong`s cancelled Spire notwithstanding).
As for the whole best vs. worst matchup. To be honest, at the level Bisu and Jaedong play, what is your best or worst matchup becomes much less important. When you are a player of such caliber, chances are that even your worst matchup is far superior to that of the majority of progamers in your respective race. Plus, both Bisu and Jaedong have proven that they are more then capable of easily dismantling even the top progamers of the races they are historically "weak" against (Bisu vs Fantasy in the Avalon MSL, Jaedong vs Stork in the Batoo OSL).
In regards to whether Bisu's best matchup is PvP or PvZ, that depends on how you define his "best matchup". In terms of his actual ability to win, Bisu is FAR more consistent in PvP, and always has been. However, if you compare his skill relative to other players, his PvZ is better (e.g. there are players that are close to his level of PvP like Stork, but there are no other Protoss players that can match Bisu's PvZ--the reason he's statistically poorer at it is because Protosses as a whole have been statistically poor in the matchup).
On September 16 2009 01:25 Mindcrime wrote: OP forgot these stats:
Jaedong: 4 Bisu: 1
number of starleague titles in the past 2 years
Nice way to choose a time duration that neatly encompasses all of Jaedong's titles and cuts out all of Bisu's.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
Uhh, Storks best MU is pvt no doubt... Bisu's best mu is PvZ, but since its zerg era, zerg favoured maps, with the zerg>protoss imbalancement, his PvP had highest win rate.
On September 16 2009 01:41 keV. wrote: Jaedong is a better series player. In a Bo1 I would say 50/50. In a BoX (where X > 1) JD 100%.
I would argue that it would be more accurate to say Jaedong is a better Bo5 players. They're probably closely matched for games 1-3, but I feel like games 4 and 5 are where Jaedong always has the mental edge over his opponent (and conversely, where Bisu breaks down in the sets he loses).
On September 16 2009 01:41 keV. wrote: Jaedong is a better series player. In a Bo1 I would say 50/50. In a BoX (where X > 1) JD 100%.
I would argue that it would be more accurate to say Jaedong is a better Bo5 players. They're probably closely matched for games 1-3, but I feel like games 4 and 5 are where Jaedong always has the mental edge over his opponent (and conversely, where Bisu breaks down in the sets he loses).
If you haven't noticed, Toss's have had a hard time coming up with a good counter to 3 hat spire -> 5 hatch hydra. I don't the maps are as imbalanced as they look, it's just a result of a recent switch in ZvP metagame.
On September 16 2009 01:58 Mindcrime wrote: Oov won an OSL in the midst of Savior's reign. Clearly oov was still the dominant player of that time...?
Never implied anything about who was dominant. Just pointing out that it's an extremely arbitrarily chosen time frame. If you want an indication of long-term performance, Bisu's other titles deserve to be in there. If you're looking at recent performance, two years is definitely too long to look at.
On September 16 2009 01:58 Mindcrime wrote: Oov won an OSL in the midst of Savior's reign. Clearly oov was still the dominant player of that time...?
Never implied anything about who was dominant. Just pointing out that it's an extremely arbitrarily chosen time frame. If you want an indication of long-term performance, Bisu's other titles deserve to be in there. If you're looking at recent performance, two years is definitely too long to look at.
So how long of a time period should we be looking at to judge recent performance? The last individual league season? The last two?
Those actually make Bisu look worse than the time period I originally chose.
Jaedong is winning where it counts right now, and Bisu isn't. Statistics like these don't mean anything because they don't ask what the game was played for. When there's more on the line, Jaedong is pulling through. So what if he didn't win one league this year. He won the freaking Golden Mouse. Once you get to ro4 in any tournament, I think everyone is practicing, much MUCH harder than they are if they meet in a random proleague or qualifying match.
Also, if you just watch Bisu's games, it's clear he hasn't been playing as good as he used to. Maybe his PvP is amazing right now, but his PvT has always left something to be desired, and his PvZ just doesn't have the harass it used to (and neither does his PvT, come to think of it). Bisu just isn't as entertaining.
I'm not a Jaedong fanboy by any means. I really like Bisu. But I know the difference between what I'm seeing and what I want to see. Although mind you, I hardly ever watch proleague (save the finals and a game here and there between players I like) so I'm missing a whole arena of games. My judgments are based on individual league performance.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
right now Bisu's best mu is PvP ,everybody knows it. His PvP is like Jaedong's zvz.
Since we are looking at historical records, what Bisu's best MU is currently is pretty irrelevant.
...on another note, I've always thought that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP, despite his stats. Just look at who has knocked him out in MSLs, OSLs, and GSLs in BoX matches:
MBC Survivor 10th: 0-2 to free[gm] 2007 1st OGN Dual Tournament: 1-2 to Much 2007 OGN StarChallege Season 1: 1-3 to Rock 2008 Bacchus OSL: 1-2 to Flash 2008 Arena MSL: 0-3 to fOrGG (insert that famous map stats picture here ) 2008 ClubDay MSL: 1-2 to free[gm] Gom Classic Season 2: 1-2 to Tempest Gom Classic Season 3: 0-3 to EffOrt 2009 Avalon MSL: 1-2 to Calm
...he keeps losing to random Protosses. When he loses to other races in a BoX, their always top-tier. But Tempest? Rock?
You're missing significant context here. Those first three losses you list are all very early in Jaedong's career, before his first OSL win against Stork. Prior to the EVER '07 finals, ZvP most definitely was Jaedong's worst matchup - in fact, you could say he was pretty much godawful at it. He was known at the time for absolutely fearsome ZvT, and IIRC his ZvZ was considered promising but the 70% win rate likely a fluke (turns out it was, just not in the direction people thought at the time). Stork was generally considered the favorite in those finals despite his weak PvZ because Jaedong had never really shown any ZvP capability. After the first game's failed all-in most people thought the series was going to be a terrible slaughter because Jaedong was clearly unprepared and outclassed. Hot Bid's Heir Apparent Final Edit from the end of 2007 does a good job explaining the situation at the time. We pretty much watched Jaedong learn ZvP during that match.
So since Jaedong really became the Jaedong we know today, he's been knocked out of leagues twice by each race. That really says nothing, even if you consider counting the times he's been knocked out of leagues as a good metric for measuring matchups, which I would probably dispute. Honestly I think trying to come up with a weakest matchup for Jaedong is a pretty fruitless exercise to begin with. All three of his matchups are top 3 in the world at worst, and while his ZvZ is somewhat more dominant than the other two, I don't think there's much to choose between them.
As for Bisu, his PvP didn't really evolve to its current state until a year ago or so. Back around the time I'm describing here, he was known and feared for his PvZ after killing Savior, and his other 2 matchups were S-class but nothing special beyond that. That's why you'll see a lot of people saying PvZ is Bisu's best matchup, even if it isn't strictly true right now - historically, over his entire career, it has been his best.
Definitely it seems that Jaedongs ZvP is not as good as you'd expect considering the overall domination of zerg over protoss recently you'd think he would have zvz-like stats for it.
Lol desti z map? That's the first time I've seen such ridiculous numbers passed off as objective statistics. I doubt much of it is mathematically sound.
On September 16 2009 04:04 Last Romantic wrote: Lol desti z map? That's the first time I've seen such ridiculous numbers passed off as objective statistics. I doubt much of it is mathematically sound.
It's StarCraft progaming, nothing is mathematically sound. That's why everyone fights so much.
13 Clashes 8 On Zerg Maps 1 On Gay Zerg Map 2 On Somewhat Fair Zerg Maps 2 Fair Maps 0 Toss Maps
(P)Bisu 6 : (Z)Jaedong 7
Assuming these stats are true, with the maps being slanted in Zerg's favor, and have a nearly 50% win rate is still very respectable. The funny part is that Bisu tends to win on the Zerg maps, and lose on the fair maps.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
Id say his best is PvP and storks best is PvT... Anyway, they played on most Z maps so being 6-7 against JD on mostly Z maps is still an accomplishment in itself.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
Id say his best is PvP and storks best is PvT... Anyway, they played on most Z maps so being 6-7 against JD on mostly Z maps is still an accomplishment in itself.
Not really. BeST used to be "amazing" at PvP, which included a 13 game winning streak vs P, but as of now, Bisu has the best PvP. (at around 67%) Stork and Jangbi have the most solid PvT's and Free, Kal and Bisu have solid solid PvZ's.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
Id say his best is PvP and storks best is PvT... Anyway, they played on most Z maps so being 6-7 against JD on mostly Z maps is still an accomplishment in itself.
Not really. BeST used to be "amazing" at PvP, which included a 13 game winning streak vs P, but as of now, Bisu has the best PvP. (at around 67%) Stork and Jangbi have the most solid PvT's and Free, Kal and Bisu have solid solid PvZ's.
I like how you say "not really," then proceed to agree with him.
On September 15 2009 21:51 motbob wrote: I think Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has zero. I also think that Jaedong's worst MU is ZvP and Bisu's best MU is PvZ.
Isn't Jaedong's worst MU ZvT; and Bisu's best MU PvP? ...
I think you have confused Bisu with Stork, Bisus best MU is PvZ.
Id say his best is PvP and storks best is PvT... Anyway, they played on most Z maps so being 6-7 against JD on mostly Z maps is still an accomplishment in itself.
Not really. BeST used to be "amazing" at PvP, which included a 13 game winning streak vs P, but as of now, Bisu has the best PvP. (at around 67%) Stork and Jangbi have the most solid PvT's and Free, Kal and Bisu have solid solid PvZ's.
I like how you say "not really," then proceed to agree with him.
All I know is when they play it is usually a game of the highest level. They both have added a lot to the gaming scene and for this I am extremely grateful.
On September 16 2009 01:25 Mindcrime wrote: OP forgot these stats:
Jaedong: 4 Bisu: 1
number of starleague titles in the past 2 years
Out of all the statistics in this thread, this one intrigued me most. It seems as if JD has only really exploded relatively recently. And that he is showing no signs of slowing down. He is the most consistent, most resilient player on the face of the earth. Especially with GOM out for the count, JD really does have more than just a chance of winning another starleague before the year ends. And in 2010, who knows?
On September 16 2009 01:25 Mindcrime wrote: OP forgot these stats:
Jaedong: 4 Bisu: 1
number of starleague titles in the past 2 years
Out of all the statistics in this thread, this one intrigued me most. It seems as if JD has only really exploded relatively recently. And that he is showing no signs of slowing down. He is the most consistent, most resilient player on the face of the earth. Especially with GOM out for the count, JD really does have more than just a chance of winning another starleague before the year ends. And in 2010, who knows?
Why dont you look at the recent swarm of Zergs running deeeeep into each tourny and then protosses.. oh wait theres only 1 ...Bisu...
Jaedong was flying around way before the recent explosion of Zerg players. I mean, Jaedong went incredibly strong in that one individual league where he was the only Zerg player in the ro16, and I believe he won that one too. He made it to the finals in an MSL that had absolutely horrendous maps for Zerg even though he lost to ForGG in the end, and Jaedong has always consistently been a strong player ever since his debut.
Don't even try to put down Jaedong with the recent surge of good Zerg players by using Bisu as an example when the last two finals that Bisu has won in was during the "Golden Age of Protoss".
EPT
Bisu vs 
Jaedong | Heartbreak Ridge | Shinhan Proleague 08-09 | 09-06-07
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/contcolcopy.jpg)
)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/photo/1250942885_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9964/kanyedong.png)
![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9006/57228024.png)
vs Bisu does include his cheese fest in the Daum OSL
