Mainly regarding Jaedong's strong desire to remain in Hwaseung Oz, as well as issues with Jaedong's salary.
One team who was not mentioned in the article said that "even until right before the end of the deadline, (they) strongly considered bringing in Jaedong, but gave up in the end because Jaedong consistently expressed his strong desire to remain in Hwaseung."
Another team mentioned that the main issue was Jaedong's salary. They said that it would be better to use the money for more areas instead of just on one player.
Jaedong now has two options: 1) to retire or 2) to give up his contract, become a semi-pro and wait for another year until the new FA season starts.
Hwaseung says they will reveal the final details on the 26th.
Update Jaedong to get more time to negotiate with Hwaseung from the 28th to the 31st.
- Final decision seems to be in the hands of Jaedong's parents - Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study - But Jaedong given more time (28th to 31st) to negotiate further with Hwaseung - Hwaseung team shows no desire to let Jaedong retire
It is revealed that for them (all three whom nobody signed a contract with them), they have the final option of choosing to negotiate with their original teams (KT, SKT1 and MBC respectively) from the 28th to 31st for a re-contract, retaining their progamer status. Or else, they will be forced to become semi-pros and wait til the next season of FA.
All three teams revealed that they will negotiate further with the players, but no specific details can be mentioned at the moment.
Text reads: (from top left to btm left, top right to btm right) E-Sports, let's protect it with our own hands once again. E-Sports for 10 years. Is the association (KeSPA) still just a kid? If the players can't stand up for themselves, we will stand up for them. JUST SAY NO - Just say what is the fact. When a place that should exist doesn't exist - we want to watch true professional sports.
A rather renowned site called 'The Eyes watching over E-Sports' (http://eznoon.tistory.com) community decided to protest against the FA issue.
They revealed 5 points that were going against the core principles of Free Agency.
1) Players do not have the freedom of choice over their career.
2) It was more like a slavery contract.
3) Imposed an unfair negotiation field/table on the players.
4) The players' annual salary is confidential.
5) The intial stages are untimely, but there aren't any protective measures or punishments that could be dealt out appropriately. (Might be worded better)
So they are saying there will be 3 courses of action; 1) that they will seek legal methods to resolve this issue, 2) asking for a quick change in the FA deals and asking for a meeting with those involved with the FA deal or 3) they will announce all the problems with the FA and related issues to the entire country.
There are lots of legal terms and stuff here so I may have made a mistake here or there, but this is the rough gist of it.
I have to agree with the Netizens. The FA policy is just absurd and frankly stupid. I wish the best of luck to Shine, Midas, Hyun and Jaedong. I hope they can negotiate some sort of compromise with their respective teams
On August 25 2009 23:42 OrderlyChaos wrote: So does Jaedong not have the option to negotiate with Oz?
My thoughts exactly. The two options given in the op makes me sad. If they are true, he is deemed not to play the next season? Or can the negotiate with Oz?
On August 25 2009 23:40 miseiler wrote: I really hope Jaedong doesn't sign with Oz, FA needs reform now and giving in is not the way to get it.
Whilst it needs a reform, losing (what most consider to be) the best player in the world would be horrible for Starcraft. Although, I can see hwasung giving into jaedong. I can only speculate, but I'd imagine they'd lose a HUGE amount of their fan base.
Until they form a Player's Union and actually act by that union they will have no power to stand up to KESPA's insane FA regulations.
However, forming such a union, which would stand against the teams and KESPA would take more balls than the typical sub-18 year old playing in pro SC has. Only one with the clout to pull it off might be Boxer, but he's getting paid well to ride the bench at SK.
Doesn't Jaedong have a good relationship with OZ and the coach? I dont think OZ will force a crappy contract onto Jaedong now that he is in this situation.
But the FA rules really sucks. It's sad to see the best player currently and over the past 2 years in this situation.
On August 25 2009 23:40 miseiler wrote: I really hope Jaedong doesn't sign with Oz, FA needs reform now and giving in is not the way to get it.
Whilst it needs a reform, losing (what most consider to be) the best player in the world would be horrible for Starcraft. Although, I can see hwasung giving into jaedong. I can only speculate, but I'd imagine they'd lose a HUGE amount of their fan base.
Yeah, you'd think they would end up losing money if they dumped JD.
It would be seriously fucked up to see him retire simply because KeSPA doesn't know what the fuck they're doing. This organization is running E-Sports into the ground, and it would be a ridiculously huge blow to watch Jaedong lose his contract because they don't know what free agency actually entails. The whole thing about paying the original team 200% of the original contract is retarded, as that basically destroys the idea of FREE agency in the first place.
The plain and simple fact is that if Jaedong doesn't get resigned to Oz now, a lot of fans are going to be really pissed. Think about it; if Jaedong isn't resigned, he is technically on a lower level than Idra. I'm not saying Idra is bad by any stretch of the imagination (in fact, I'm a pretty big fan), but Jaedong is the best player in the world right now.
Wow, if JD turns into semi-pro he could be the first to win a tourney.
Still this sucks for JD, he is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If OZ wants to they can offer maybe only 80 mill for him cause his only other options are retirement or semi-pro T_T
On August 25 2009 23:59 Highways wrote: Doesn't Jaedong have a good relationship with OZ and the coach? I dont think OZ will force a crappy contract onto Jaedong now that he is in this situation.
But the FA rules really sucks. It's sad to see the best player currently and over the past 2 years in this situation.
how does the reigning OSL champion not have a team? or Jaedong should just not be on a team, so he doesn't play in proleague and then win the starleague triple crown: OSL, MSL, GSL
This was pretty much the second worse possible resolution to JD's free agency claim (The absolute worst solution would be him getting hired by SKT). Now Jaedong's parents have to choose between seeing their son doing slave work for an absolutely underpriced salary or retire the best player in SC history way before he even reaches his peak.
Oh boy, now imagine what would happen if Hwaseung re-signs Jaedong for undisclosed $$. The community would go nuts. The amount that has been offered him was already low enough, but if Hwaseung chooses to not tell how much Jaedong will be making, every one (including me) is going to assume JD has been robbed blind.
Well, I hope Jaedong goes for some university overseas and sparks the birth of E-SPORTS on the west.
On August 25 2009 23:59 Highways wrote: Doesn't Jaedong have a good relationship with OZ and the coach? I dont think OZ will force a crappy contract onto Jaedong now that he is in this situation.
But the FA rules really sucks. It's sad to see the best player currently and over the past 2 years in this situation.
I don't think this decisions is up to the coach.
As much as I think you're right, I'm really hoping Coach Cho has some sort of sway on the decision, or at least some sort of input.
Also how many people would be changing their icons at the bottom right if JD does not re-sign.
On August 25 2009 23:59 Highways wrote: Doesn't Jaedong have a good relationship with OZ and the coach? I dont think OZ will force a crappy contract onto Jaedong now that he is in this situation.
But the FA rules really sucks. It's sad to see the best player currently and over the past 2 years in this situation.
I don't think this decisions is up to the coach.
As much as I think you're right, I'm really hoping Coach Cho has some sort of sway on the decision, or at least some sort of input.
Also how many people would be changing their icons at the bottom right if JD does not re-sign.
i would like to change my icon to "Kespa Go fuck yourself"
Can someone explain the logic behind "you must be in a pro team or else you are not a progamer and cannot compete in any real leagues", which seems to be the policy, here?
Seems like it's just a pointless way to have more power/control over the players.
On August 25 2009 23:47 sk` wrote: Until they form a Player's Union and actually act by that union they will have no power to stand up to KESPA's insane FA regulations.
However, forming such a union, which would stand against the teams and KESPA would take more balls than the typical sub-18 year old playing in pro SC has. Only one with the clout to pull it off might be Boxer, but he's getting paid well to ride the bench at SK.
Boxer not only wants to start a player's union, but hes made some preliminary attempt. Last I recall he was trying to recruit savior to continue on the work, but nothing has really changed
On August 26 2009 00:56 Bill307 wrote: Can someone explain the logic behind "you must be in a pro team or else you are not a progamer and cannot compete in any real leagues", which seems to be the policy, here?
Seems like it's just a pointless way to have more power/control over the players.
+1
so, if someone could point out where we could find sc 'pro gaming rules' or whatever?
All this is somehow taking a toll on my will to play starcraft..
Seriously, its only been like 10 years, and e-sports has already gone crazy with extremely controversial issues.
In my opinion KeSPA should be full of retired players, as they know the industry better, and they can, in my opinion, please fans, as that is what a spectator sport is about. NO ONE likes KeSPA, and its only been like 8 years of KeSPA related e-sports. I just hope e-sports does not become a lost fad because of this D:
My gut tells me KeSPA is going to collapse soon, and everything will be fine after that
On August 26 2009 00:55 Mutalisk wrote: Yeah, I agree, fuck kespa. These 4 players should make their own team.
Actually, if they did this it might be better than OZ-with-JD, all they need is a Protoss. Suppose ACE were to be retarded and reject Much... of course they'd need the support and b-teamers for practice and stuff, but hey.
the hell with this, i hope Oz won't dare to make some retarded low offer to Jaedong which would lead his parents forcing him to retire... could imagine loads of south koreans going nuts of this crap..
Someone on that Korean website said that the team that wanted to acquire Jaedong until the last minute and gave up cuz JD claimed that he wanted to remain with Oz was STX and the team that chose not to sign JD because it would be better to get bunch of new players was Woongjin
Looking at the situation, this could be exactly what the e-sports scene needs; after seeing KESPA and the corporate teams treat the best Starcraft player in the world like garbage via the horribly unjust FA system, the community is finally up in arms, broadly and almost universally both in Korea and the rest of the world. Even former KESPA supporters have to acknowledge the injustice of a system that gives the best Starcraft player in the world absolutely no negotiating leverage and no control over his own fate, leaving him to merely hope that corporate sponsors decide to pay an artifically inflated price to acquire him, or be forced out of the sport. In short, this "Jaedong fiasco" may be exactly what is needed to break KESPA's monopoly on e-sports once and for all. And...to quote a famous SKT1 player coach, the destruction of KESPA is necessary "for the development of e-sports."
God this is really pissing me off. I swear if Jaedong is forced to retire I am going to RAGE my way to S. Korea and fuck some people up. The only possible positive will be community outrage and hopefully Kespa get's some major backlash.
I wanted Jaedong to go to a better team, but it seems like he really loves his friends at Oz, and taking him away from them wouldn't be good. I hope he gets what he wants.
BTW. Could Jaedong actually go to the army? I mean he could forfill his duty and stay in the pro buisness would be perfect for him and ofc perfect for ace but I guess sinc he isnt 21...
Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
On August 26 2009 01:40 HanN00b wrote: A semi pro cant. He would only play wcg.
Possible meaning: How hard has OGN got to be leaning on OZ to get JD a contract? Imagine if JD wins the golden mouse and then can't even play in the next OSL. Or maybe this would cause OGN to break from KeSPA on this one... and that might be the floodgate break to end the nonsense.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
i HOPE jaedong doesnt sign with oz. the system will stay broke as hell, long into sc2 if the players dont take a stand NOW. and no player other than jaedong could send a stronger message at the moment.
If Oz does not sign him before tommorow, can they still sign him during the rest of the season, i.e. do they have the rights for him, and could they trade the rights to him, or is he completely locked out for a year, no matter what?
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
We are on the eve of an e-sports revolution, brothers.
This is the final straw - if KeSPA's mindless regulations force Jaedong out of the game at his peak, then it will be the end of their monopoly over Korean e-sports. OGN will let him play in the next OSL regardless of what KeSPA says, teams will make sure that he's allowed to keep playing, and even GOM/Blizzard will support him.
Here's hoping his mom and dad don't fuck it up for him.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
However, FA still sucks.
Honorable, my foot. They are looking out for themselves. If they felt that buying Jaedong was worth it to them, they would do it, but they don't want to a) spend a ton of money and b) set a precedent for spending money, especially for a player who may not be as motivated on their team.
I also don't know where you get the idea that when a player declares free agency, clearly soliciting bids, it is somehow "honorable" not to bid at all. At best, Jaedong can now take his original contract with Hwaseung, and at worst, they don't even have to offer that anymore. And it's looking just as likely that he won't stay with Oz anyway: he'll just retire or go semi-pro.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
However, FA still sucks.
Honorable, my foot. They are looking out for themselves. If they felt that buying Jaedong was worth it to them, they would do it, but they don't want to a) spend a ton of money and b) set a precedent for spending money, especially for a player who may not be as motivated on their team.
I also don't know where you get the idea that when a player declares free agency, clearly soliciting bids, it is somehow "honorable" not to bid at all. At best, Jaedong can now take his original contract with Hwaseung, and at worst, they don't even have to offer that anymore. And it's looking just as likely that he won't stay with Oz anyway: he'll just retire or go semi-pro.
+ 1
It’s none of honor to take any bid for your FA proposal.
Whole thing was stupid as hell form the beggining, seriously only retards form KeSPA could come up with such rules. Great way of fucking up Jadeong and SC overall.
If what the reports are true, it shows that although Jaedong's a SC genius, he's still a naive kid. By saying he wishes to stay at Oz above all else, he pretty much gave Oz the right to just murder him in the contract negotiations. The system is already made it impossible for other teams to bid on star players. Jaedong gave away whatever little leverage he had left.
It's too bad Jaedong's at a period in his life that he still doesn't understand the concept of money. Hopefully it won't hurt his future. It seems he's a nice, hardworking kid. And he really doesn't deserves to be screwed like this.
On August 26 2009 02:30 baubo wrote: If what the reports are true, it shows that although Jaedong's a SC genius, he's still a naive kid. By saying he wishes to stay at Oz above all else, he pretty much gave Oz the right to just murder him in the contract negotiations. The system is already made it impossible for other teams to bid on star players. Jaedong gave away whatever little leverage he had left.
It's too bad Jaedong's at a period in his life that he still doesn't understand the concept of money. Hopefully it won't hurt his future. It seems he's a nice, hardworking kid. And he really doesn't deserves to be screwed like this.
yea well, remember KeSPA also made the "thou shalt not have agents" rule. if Jaedong had an agent, things would have worked out better.
Kespa has gone to far already. Free agency is crap. Poor jaedong is probably the most dedicated player of them all, and he doesnt even have the choice to stay or go. This must be breaking his poor heart .
Fuck Kespa... I just hope that JD retires and plays like a semi-pro/practice partner on another team that really wants him for 1 season and then he just get signed by that team. or he just retire for ever.
I dont want that Kespa wins I HATE U FUCKING KESPA
If jaedong retires for a year, anyone who wins MSL or OSL wouldn't mean a shit.. Jaedong is the main attractive of competitive bw atm. Losing him would be a HUGE blow.
On August 26 2009 02:30 baubo wrote: If what the reports are true, it shows that although Jaedong's a SC genius, he's still a naive kid. By saying he wishes to stay at Oz above all else, he pretty much gave Oz the right to just murder him in the contract negotiations. The system is already made it impossible for other teams to bid on star players. Jaedong gave away whatever little leverage he had left.
It's too bad Jaedong's at a period in his life that he still doesn't understand the concept of money. Hopefully it won't hurt his future. It seems he's a nice, hardworking kid. And he really doesn't deserves to be screwed like this.
yea well, remember KeSPA also made the "thou shalt not have agents" rule. if Jaedong had an agent, things would have worked out better.
Well, if he simply just shut up and let his parents do the talking, it would've been better. The problem is that there's absolutely zero advantage to Jaedong, when he said that he wishes to return to Oz. I can't imagine Oz not matching whatever the highest bidder asked for.
On a side note, Korean netizens have the wrong idea about the whole "Free auction" thing. The system is the furthest thing from an actual auction. The current system stops player movement period, lowers competition for services, and allows teams to retain their own players for below market value.
If anything, an auction would be BETTER than the current system. Because an auction encourages bidding and therefore raises the salaries of players.
On August 26 2009 02:26 Athos wrote: Kespa for #1 powerrank. He's the only player to completely dominate Jaedong!
Yeah, seriously. Jaedong might've taken a beating in PL finals from Fantasy, but he gave it right back in OSL semis. Only KeSPA can claim to have completely owned Lee Jae Dong.
While feeling bad for Jaedong, I really hope for all of programmings sake that his parents stand firm and retire their son. That would force Kespa to review their current rules.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
However, FA still sucks.
Claiming it's because they are respecting Jaedongs wishes are form of good media relations in my own eyes. Kespa and the proleague-management have a long history of exploiting young inexperienced players for their own advantage.
That none of the other teams have made an offer means that he's either (1) to expensive to sign (beacuse of the "play tripple for FAs" rule), or (2) that the teams cooperate to keep player-wages low.
(Probably the last one, since go.go was the only FA offered a new contract.)
If JD becomes a semi-pro couldn't he be scouted and would he still be able to play in indvidual leagues? Also I would ROFL so hard watching him DESTROY semi-pro leagues.
Jaedong for retirement imo, he has already done enough for two or more players entire careers. Man he is gonna crash good the night he's out of that prison.
i will not watch starcraft anymore if jaedong retires. this is the biggest load of bullshit i have seen faggotass kespa needs to go suck some big fat dick cuz thats what theyre doing right now only metaphorically. i dont care if this gets me banned it looks like theres a good chance i wont be watching or playing starcraft anymore. i hope blizzard nukes kespa once sc2 comes out and jails any faggoty member of kespa that somehow flees the scene beforehand, so they get their assholes ripped open by dudes with 14inch monster cocks so they can get a taste of how jaedong must be feeling right now and repent their sins for eternity
The free agent system is fucking retarded (as is basically every other KeSPA policy), but assuming OZ does the right thing and leaves their 140M offer on the table, JD is actually getting what he wants here.
On August 26 2009 03:30 Blueblister wrote: While feeling bad for Jaedong, I really hope for all of programmings sake that his parents stand firm and retire their son. That would force Kespa to review their current rules.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
However, FA still sucks.
Claiming it's because they are respecting Jaedongs wishes are form of good media relations in my own eyes. Kespa and the proleague-management have a long history of exploiting young inexperienced players for their own advantage.
That none of the other teams have made an offer means that he's either (1) to expensive to sign (beacuse of the "play tripple for FAs" rule), or (2) that the teams cooperate to keep player-wages low.
(Probably the last one, since go.go was the only FA offered a new contract.)
Both explanations are unacceptable.
I agree, its the break of the war against players rights in korea, or it should be atleast. + Show Spoiler +
Jedi mind tricks, On the eve of war, kinda derailing but at the same time it expresses very well the kind of feeling and meaning that should be held by the starcraft community against kespa and against team collaboration about keeping salaries low.
I propose that the starcraft community fight for jaedong and esports in general especially players rights. and not just the netizens of the FA community either, this is a damn violation of JD's rights to put it simply. Think about it logically, no teams what-so-ever bid for jaedong, even though it was an auction. Does this make any sense? no it makes no sense because its team collaboration to fuck an amazing player over to keep some won for the greedy team managers and whoever else benefits and gets the cash. Am i wrong in thinking that is whats going on behind the curtains, do i have the wrong ideas? Because if im wrong i will gladly change my viewpoint, as well as my post.
Looks like KeSPA succeeded in all its goals. Who would have guessed an organization consisting of the companies that run the teams would collude to depress salaries. Shock.
On August 26 2009 03:30 Blueblister wrote: While feeling bad for Jaedong, I really hope for all of programmings sake that his parents stand firm and retire their son. That would force Kespa to review their current rules.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
However, FA still sucks.
Claiming it's because they are respecting Jaedongs wishes are form of good media relations in my own eyes. Kespa and the proleague-management have a long history of exploiting young inexperienced players for their own advantage.
That none of the other teams have made an offer means that he's either (1) to expensive to sign (beacuse of the "play tripple for FAs" rule), or (2) that the teams cooperate to keep player-wages low.
(Probably the last one, since go.go was the only FA offered a new contract.)
Both explanations are unacceptable.
I agree, its the break of the war against players rights in korea, or it should be atleast. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQEMLPkilyI&fmt=18 Jedi mind tricks, On the eve of war, kinda derailing but at the same time it expresses very well the kind of feeling and meaning that should be held by the starcraft community against kespa and against team collaboration about keeping salaries low.
I propose that the starcraft community fight for jaedong and esports in general especially players rights. and not just the netizens of the FA community either, this is a damn violation of JD's rights to put it simply. Think about it logically, no teams what-so-ever bid for jaedong, even though it was an auction. Does this make any sense? no it makes no sense because its team collaboration to fuck an amazing player over to keep some won for the greedy team managers and whoever else benefits and gets the cash. Am i wrong in thinking that is whats going on behind the curtains, do i have the wrong ideas? Because if im wrong i will gladly change my viewpoint, as well as my post.
Why would other teams care about saving Oz won? There's no incentive to "fuck over" another player to help save a rival team some money. Look at the money they are already dropping for their own players. Teams obviously are dropping money in the first place to acquire these players, it's merely a cost/benefit analysis on whether or not it would be worth it.
I think you need to lay off conspiracy theories.
On August 26 2009 04:35 rotinegg wrote: i will not watch starcraft anymore if jaedong retires. this is the biggest load of bullshit i have seen faggotass kespa needs to go suck some big fat dick cuz thats what theyre doing right now only metaphorically. i dont care if this gets me banned it looks like theres a good chance i wont be watching or playing starcraft anymore. i hope blizzard nukes kespa once sc2 comes out and jails any faggoty member of kespa that somehow flees the scene beforehand, so they get their assholes ripped open by dudes with 14inch monster cocks so they can get a taste of how jaedong must be feeling right now and repent their sins for eternity
You know, saying "I don't care if this gets me banned," is probably more likely to get you banned, I'm not sure why you're declaring it. Honestly, what the fuck is the logic behind any of your post...
On August 26 2009 04:35 rotinegg wrote: i will not watch starcraft anymore if jaedong retires. this is the biggest load of bullshit i have seen faggotass kespa needs to go suck some big fat dick cuz thats what theyre doing right now only metaphorically. i dont care if this gets me banned it looks like theres a good chance i wont be watching or playing starcraft anymore. i hope blizzard nukes kespa once sc2 comes out and jails any faggoty member of kespa that somehow flees the scene beforehand, so they get their assholes ripped open by dudes with 14inch monster cocks so they can get a taste of how jaedong must be feeling right now and repent their sins for eternity
Why is everyone hating on kespa alone when the situation is far more twisted. Even if kespa went the "do whatever you want"-route the issue remains the same.
- Jaedong wants to stay with his team & friends and in a place where he feels save, money seems to be no issue as he is downplaying the rumours about him getting overworked (wich is probably easier to say for him after the rush of another starleague)
- Parents support their son on his path, probably realised that a progamers career is frail, probably compared his salary to that of other progamers and then simply asked for more. Not alot more tough and still certainly less than other big names make.
- Hwaseung OZ managers tought about it and responded with a big fat no and a "lets see what you can do on the "free" market. They know it's win-win for them anyway. A 2-times players salary for free or the best starcraft player there is for a "top 10 gamer"-salary.
- Other teams don't bid because Jaedong expressed strong desire to stay. Tearing a young boy out of his surrounding might crush his desire to win, make him loose focus and love for the game and worst come to worst render him useless.
- KESPA gets heat for another crappy system
Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
On August 26 2009 05:36 Jayson X wrote: Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
What's with this ragging on Bisu? He only switched over to SK Telecom because MBC decided they wanted a lil cash instead of the best protoss player in the game.
On August 26 2009 05:36 Jayson X wrote: Why is everyone hating on kespa alone when the situation is far more twisted. Even if kespa went the "do whatever you want"-route the issue remains the same.
- Jaedong wants to stay with his team & friends and in a place where he feels save, money seems to be no issue as he is downplaying the rumours about him getting overworked (wich is probably easier to say for him after the rush of another starleague)
- Parents support their son on his path, probably realised that a progamers career is frail, probably compared his salary to that of other progamers and then simply asked for more. Not alot more tough and still certainly less than other big names make.
- Hwaseung OZ managers tought about it and responded with a big fat no and a "lets see what you can do on the "free" market. They know it's win-win for them anyway. A 2-times players salary for free or the best starcraft player there is for a "top 10 gamer"-salary.
- Other teams don't bid because Jaedong expressed strong desire to stay. Tearing a young boy out of his surrounding might crush his desire to win, make him loose focus and love for the game and worst come to worst render him useless.
- KESPA gets heat for another crappy system
Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
I would have to disagree. In my opinion, KeSPA is the primary source of this bullshit.
The only reason the Hwaseung's team manager (or who ever deals with salaries) is being a douche and putting up only 140m won is because that is exactly enough to scare away the other teams, then Jaedong can only negotiate with OZ.
If KeSPA went the "do what you want" route:
- Jaedong's parents can talk as long as they wish with the OZ salary manager. Also, because there is no bs rules, OZ will be more obliged to keep Jaedong, as it is going to be way cheaper to buy Jaedong from OZ. Did you know that will cost teams atleast 500m won to buy Jaedong? That is his salary + the fees to his original team.
- After the negotiations are done, everyone is happy.
This is all KeSPA's fault, and as a result, everyone else is getting screwed over.
KeSPA made the rules that another teams have to play twice the current salary plus some other stuff. Yes, it's KeSPA's fault that Jaedong is so expensive to acquire.
what's the fucking point of free agency when only ONE person moves to another team. might as well get rid of the system and go back to the old 'i give you more money, come over' style of 'free agency'
if this continues next year whats the point of reporting on it when no one is going to move anywhere
On August 26 2009 05:20 ryuu_ wrote: JD should get his hard earned salary already, Good Lord Hwaseung wtf are you thinking...the Legend Killer cannot retire this early..
Well, you must realize that as soon as the legend-killer got his golden mouse and became a legend, he must kill himself :S
On August 26 2009 05:56 GTR wrote: what's the fucking point of free agency when only ONE person moves to another team. might as well get rid of the system and go back to the old 'i give you more money, come over' style of 'free agency'
if this continues next year whats the point of reporting on it when no one is going to move anywhere
you can still do that, I think FA was supposed to be cheaper than that in theory (and free for under 50,000,000 won earners).
I believe I read in a previous FA post that a team must offer double the player's salary to another team in order to take a player from them (which in and of itself gives the team 'ownership' of the player even when there is no more contract). This seems ridiculous, especially in the case of Jaedong - who realistically should have the largest contract of any player. I agree that there shouldn't be a lot of incentive for teams to 'steal' players from other teams, but at the same time this harsh penalty allows nearly no leeway for players to sign with other teams for their true value.
If Jaedong says he wants to stay with Oz, and any team who would pick him up has to pay a harsh penalty for doing so, this really isn't surprising news. It is terribly unfortunate, though. Competitive starcraft without it's best player right now would be a travesty. Kespa has to realize that, right?
On August 26 2009 05:36 Jayson X wrote: Why is everyone hating on kespa alone when the situation is far more twisted. Even if kespa went the "do whatever you want"-route the issue remains the same.
- Jaedong wants to stay with his team & friends and in a place where he feels save, money seems to be no issue as he is downplaying the rumours about him getting overworked (wich is probably easier to say for him after the rush of another starleague)
- Parents support their son on his path, probably realised that a progamers career is frail, probably compared his salary to that of other progamers and then simply asked for more. Not alot more tough and still certainly less than other big names make.
- Hwaseung OZ managers tought about it and responded with a big fat no and a "lets see what you can do on the "free" market. They know it's win-win for them anyway. A 2-times players salary for free or the best starcraft player there is for a "top 10 gamer"-salary.
- Other teams don't bid because Jaedong expressed strong desire to stay. Tearing a young boy out of his surrounding might crush his desire to win, make him loose focus and love for the game and worst come to worst render him useless.
- KESPA gets heat for another crappy system
Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
no, the reason y Jaedong is in this situation is because no team can afford him due to the "you must pay his original team twice his salary" rule. and no cares about the fact that Jaedong wants to stay in Oz, if a team wants him they'd offer him money.
On August 26 2009 05:36 Jayson X wrote: Why is everyone hating on kespa alone when the situation is far more twisted. Even if kespa went the "do whatever you want"-route the issue remains the same.
- Jaedong wants to stay with his team & friends and in a place where he feels save, money seems to be no issue as he is downplaying the rumours about him getting overworked (wich is probably easier to say for him after the rush of another starleague)
- Parents support their son on his path, probably realised that a progamers career is frail, probably compared his salary to that of other progamers and then simply asked for more. Not alot more tough and still certainly less than other big names make.
- Hwaseung OZ managers tought about it and responded with a big fat no and a "lets see what you can do on the "free" market. They know it's win-win for them anyway. A 2-times players salary for free or the best starcraft player there is for a "top 10 gamer"-salary.
- Other teams don't bid because Jaedong expressed strong desire to stay. Tearing a young boy out of his surrounding might crush his desire to win, make him loose focus and love for the game and worst come to worst render him useless.
- KESPA gets heat for another crappy system
Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
no, the reason y Jaedong is in this situation is because no team can afford him due to the "you must pay his original team twice his salary" rule. and no cares about the fact that Jaedong wants to stay in Oz, if a team wants him they'd offer him money.
I'd lean more towards the theory all the teams are in collusion with each other and KESPA to not sign Jaedong to prevent other players from trying to use FA to get better deals. Note how nobody signed any of the other FA players either.
On August 26 2009 06:44 General Nuke Em wrote: I'd lean more towards the theory all the teams are in collusion with each other and KESPA to not sign Jaedong to prevent other players from trying to use FA to get better deals. Note how nobody signed any of the other FA players either.
But maybe nobody signed other FA players because kespa's FA system is shit? It doesn't have to be some giant conspiracy.
On August 26 2009 05:36 Jayson X wrote: Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
what ?! he fucking cried like a baby when he made his farewell address to MBC, besides it wasnt like "Fuck MBC, I'm going to t1" because the main reason Bisu got traded was the end of his contract with MBC. SKT was just able to step up and offer him the money he deserves.
I dont get all the stuff about Bisu being arrogant. Believe me, both Bisu and Jaedong are thinking they are the best at what they do, and both Bisu and Jaedong have huge egos. Most of the pros are making weird excuses when they are doing bad and I'm fucking sick of Flash's "I didn't had enough time to practice" stuff. Sure, Bisu is cocky on the mike (saying he was going to be the first guy to win the MSL 4 times in a row, was pretty bad), but he is the best protoss ever, and arguably the best looking starcraft player , so he has nothing to prove - he can say whatever shit he wants
On August 26 2009 06:44 General Nuke Em wrote: I'd lean more towards the theory all the teams are in collusion with each other and KESPA to not sign Jaedong to prevent other players from trying to use FA to get better deals. Note how nobody signed any of the other FA players either.
But maybe nobody signed other FA players because kespa's FA system is shit? It doesn't have to be some giant conspiracy.
I have no idea why Wemade needed another Terran but they have the money to buy him so I guess they decided to >_>
I'm willing to bet they had the money to buy JD expect JD didn't want to go hence the first page of this thread. Wemade along with Stars were probably one of these teams going with the information from Light.
One team who was not mentioned in the article said that "even until right before the end of the deadline, (they) strongly considered bringing in Jaedong, but gave up in the end because Jaedong consistently expressed his strong desire to remain in Hwaseung."
Another team mentioned that the main issue was Jaedong's salary. They said that it would be better to use the money for more areas instead of just on one player.
The whole thing would be a totally diffrent story if this would have been just "normal" bidding system:
Oz bids fucking low 140 Kahn or whoever bids 200...
Jaedong now can decide if he stays with the team he likes or the team that pays more...
But instead we got: OZ bids a fucking low 140 and other teams would have to bid 280 + jaedongs new loan.
To compare this to soccer..
Ronaldo is what worth now? 95 Millions?
A new team would have to bid 190 Millions the get him + a loan that is probably higher 95 Millions to get him.
This system makes players that aren't overpriced VERY expensive to buy, which is retarded. Jaedong for 140 is a bargain, Jaedong for 280 + 140+++ is extremly expensive.
On August 26 2009 06:53 disciple wrote: I dont get all the stuff about Bisu being arrogant.
well, Bisu also refers to himself as a prince (there was a video of the progamers making the Bacchus OSL intro where he calls himself a prince, but that could be a bad translation), but anyway, that is not the issue at hand.
On August 26 2009 06:54 Velr wrote: The whole thing would be a totally diffrent story if this would have been just "normal" bidding system:
Oz bids fucking low 140 Kahn or whoever bids 200...
Jaedong now can decide if he stays with the team he likes or the team that pays more...
But instead we got: OZ bids a fucking low 140 and other teams would have to bid 280 + jaedongs new loan.
To compare this to soccer..
Ronaldo is what worth now? 95 Millions?
A new team would have to bid 190 Millions the get him + a loan that is probably higher 95 Millions to get him.
This system makes players that aren't overpriced VERY expensive to buy, which is retarded. Jaedong for 140 is a bargain, Jaedong for 280 + 140+++ is extremly expensive.
yea, totally agree, i was thinking about the same thing except with Kobe Bryant, who has like a 140 million dollar contract.
No one has the info right now except the negotiators. When the two days are up, we'll know for sure. Till then, listed to paladin'romad or someone who's got ears and eyes in there.
I was reading the korean comments and it said: If a team offered him lets say 2 million for one year and another team offered 3 milllion for 10 years, JD would have gone to the latter. I didn't kno that KeSPA never gave a shit about their players, but rather the companies selling players like slaves
I can see many people stop caring about starcraft if Jaedong quits. Kespa should realize that they are hurting themselves here. Hopefully this will get resolved in a way where everyone is happy (except Kespa. I dont care about them).
60M WON? WTF THIS WORLD IS CRAZY... how could Bisu won 300M Won and flash to.. but JD 60M won thats just sick I hope that OZ and Kespa dies forever.
Poor guy he is just a slave and its all that he ever did so for him it is the best thing (cus he doesnt know the world outside 12 hours of practice every fucking day) FUCK U OZ and KESPA
I'm not a Jaedong fan, in fact, I'm going to say I don't even like him very much. However, this is really stupid and I can't believe this system actually exists. A player should be able to go wherever he wants.
If i were JD i would say fuck you OZ and retire if he doesnt get at least 200 million won. Oz is so damn greedy and they should of jumped all over the supposed 170-180 million won JD and family were willing to sign for and kiss his feet. I would stop giving 2 shits about sc and wait till sc2 comes out if JD isnt playing anymore since who really wants to see Effort carrying the zerg. Fuck that.
In the end im pretty sure kespa wont allow JD to retire and will make sure he signs with some team and resolve this since he generates too much cash for them.
On August 26 2009 08:40 jyLee wrote: If i were JD i would say fuck you OZ and retire if he doesnt get at least 200 million won. Oz is so damn greedy and they should of jumped all over the supposed 170-180 million won JD and family were willing to sign for and kiss his feet. I would stop giving 2 shits about sc and wait till sc2 comes out if JD isnt playing anymore since who really wants to see Effort carrying the zerg. Fuck that.
In the end im pretty sure kespa wont allow JD to retire and will make sure he signs with some team and resolve this since he generates too much cash for them.
I'm hoping Jaedong would quit too. If he quits I'm sure DogSPA/Hwaesung will shit their pants and finally increase the salary for him because anything under 200k is clearly underpaid.
If Jaedong doesn't quit, things will look much worse: - Hwaesung can pay him whatever they want and he can't even neg it up. Hell it would be even lucky if the bosses kept their 140k offer. - Other progamers will never dare to do the same thing which makes this job even shittier. - Fans will be so angry and it will hurt progaming sooner or later. The overall quality of the games and leagues now are still good thanks to the great pool of players, but who knows if in the next seasons things get worse (because of some crap maps, repetitive gameplay, mirror finals, Korea gets into FIFA World Cup quarter finals and stealing all the focus etc.). Many people may just decide to stop following Starcraft all together.
I would much rather see JaeDong playing in a pro team than him being a semi-pro and wait till the next FA. I really don't like his parents for forcing him to this position, especially when JaeDong already said he wants to stay with Oz.
On August 26 2009 10:01 ForSC2 wrote: It's kinda fucked up that it feels like Oz is depending on Jaedong's love of his team to be able to keep him around and offer him a crap salary.
It's like because you care about your team, that same team can rob you blind.
caring about the people on a team is not the same as caring for the people who sign your checks and vice versa
On August 26 2009 08:40 jyLee wrote: If i were JD i would say fuck you OZ and retire if he doesnt get at least 200 million won. Oz is so damn greedy and they should of jumped all over the supposed 170-180 million won JD and family were willing to sign for and kiss his feet. I would stop giving 2 shits about sc and wait till sc2 comes out if JD isnt playing anymore since who really wants to see Effort carrying the zerg. Fuck that.
In the end im pretty sure kespa wont allow JD to retire and will make sure he signs with some team and resolve this since he generates too much cash for them.
I'm hoping Jaedong would quit too. If he quits I'm sure DogSPA/Hwaesung will shit their pants and finally increase the salary for him because anything under 200k is clearly underpaid.
If Jaedong doesn't quit, things will look much worse: - Hwaesung can pay him whatever they want and he can't even neg it up. Hell it would be even lucky if the bosses kept their 140k offer. - Other progamers will never dare to do the same thing which makes this job even shittier. - Fans will be so angry and it will hurt progaming sooner or later. The overall quality of the games and leagues now are still good thanks to the great pool of players, but who knows if in the next seasons things get worse (because of some crap maps, repetitive gameplay, mirror finals, Korea gets into FIFA World Cup quarter finals and stealing all the focus etc.). Many people may just decide to stop following Starcraft all together.
I think you're right. JAEDONG SHOULD BOYCOTT KESPA AND BECOME A HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST! He'll be the Rosa Parks of e-sports nerds.
wow being a millionaire in korea isn't enough... is that how fucked up WON is? 180 mil is just 200k in US? I think that is actually big enough to compensate him for another 10 years (or I'm just being idiotic here)
On August 26 2009 09:20 arb wrote: Jaedongs parents may have potentially fucked him up bad now
You mean... JD might have to go to college and enter society instead of fading out at 22 like all "pros"? JD seems exceptionally smart, so a focus on long-term success would likely be for the wisest; especially if the FA rules are just fucking him.
It might actually provoke a change in the system. JD is humped out of progaming by bad FA rules, fans get pissed, KESPA gets raged, ...? Either way, Oz sans JD would be ACE level.
this is the first time KeSPA is using this FA system, so they'll probably change it the next time around. they can't change it now because it has already started, but i hope they've learned something from this.
with the game almost entirely "figured out", it'll be hard to find someone who can top jaedong. i'd like to see the platinum mouse. he's probably the only one out there who can get that. i really hope he doesn't retire because of some bullshit rules that an incompetent entity made up.
On August 26 2009 12:48 Licmyobelisk wrote: wow being a millionaire in korea isn't enough... is that how fucked up WON is? 180 mil is just 200k in US? I think that is actually big enough to compensate him for another 10 years (or I'm just being idiotic here)
first of all 180 million won is more like 150k, and considering the average american earns like 35k-40k a year, 150k would not be enough for 10 years.
wait, does this mean that even if he dose sign back up with Oz, that he wont be able to play, and defend his OSL, anyways??? Is that what semi pro means???
On August 26 2009 13:55 hiro protagonist wrote: wait, does this mean that even if he dose sign back up with Oz, that he wont be able to play, and defend his OSL, anyways??? Is that what semi pro means???
i suppose wow won't cover this bit of news. kind of excited to see what would happen now.
Mainly regarding Jaedong's strong desire to remain in Hwaseung Oz
this sounds like a fake media statement that is meant to provide a nonexplosive cover. even if it is true, talk about mistaking a business for a friend.
jd is probably having some issues with his parents. even though the parents are looking out for him, and being the only ones who do so, they seem to not see the same reality as jd does. it is unreasonable to expect that they will work out their differences in however absurdly short the fa period is. (anything less than 365 days is too short)
On August 26 2009 05:36 Jayson X wrote: Why is everyone hating on kespa alone when the situation is far more twisted. Even if kespa went the "do whatever you want"-route the issue remains the same.
- Jaedong wants to stay with his team & friends and in a place where he feels save, money seems to be no issue as he is downplaying the rumours about him getting overworked (wich is probably easier to say for him after the rush of another starleague)
- Parents support their son on his path, probably realised that a progamers career is frail, probably compared his salary to that of other progamers and then simply asked for more. Not alot more tough and still certainly less than other big names make.
- Hwaseung OZ managers tought about it and responded with a big fat no and a "lets see what you can do on the "free" market. They know it's win-win for them anyway. A 2-times players salary for free or the best starcraft player there is for a "top 10 gamer"-salary.
- Other teams don't bid because Jaedong expressed strong desire to stay. Tearing a young boy out of his surrounding might crush his desire to win, make him loose focus and love for the game and worst come to worst render him useless.
- KESPA gets heat for another crappy system
Conclusion. Jaedong is not Bisu. Jaedong probably is the type of guy that loves his friends and feels very safe with them. Money talk is something he can ignore since it doesnt matter if he gets more money, it's piling up anyway and he allready has everything he wants right now.
no, the reason y Jaedong is in this situation is because no team can afford him due to the "you must pay his original team twice his salary" rule. and no cares about the fact that Jaedong wants to stay in Oz, if a team wants him they'd offer him money.
I'd lean more towards the theory all the teams are in collusion with each other and KESPA to not sign Jaedong to prevent other players from trying to use FA to get better deals. Note how nobody signed any of the other FA players either.
although i raised collusion as a distinct possibility before, the situation seems to be that the industry side enjoys so many advantages, even insane ones like the 2x salary payback rule, that they dont really need to collude. \their desired outcome is for jd to sign but for far less than he is worth and stay within accepted notions of how much these contracts should go for. they absolutely do not want a fallout with jd that results in angry fans and scrutiny.
i dont think they are colluding. the strong parental involvement is likely unexpected, and that contributed to a terribly inept system self destructing.
On August 26 2009 12:48 Licmyobelisk wrote: wow being a millionaire in korea isn't enough... is that how fucked up WON is? 180 mil is just 200k in US? I think that is actually big enough to compensate him for another 10 years (or I'm just being idiotic here)
Korean money = US money minus 3 digits
So lets say that I have just stole 1 million won (1,000,000)
I just stole an equivalent of $1000
This, of course, excludes exchange rates because it changes all the time
They're not millionaires, countries that are poorer or richer than korea can have more digits or less digits to their money. The length of digits of your country's money (1000 won, 100 yen, 1 dollar) doesn't mean that the country is poor. Some countries just have lengthy digits
On August 26 2009 06:54 Velr wrote: The whole thing would be a totally diffrent story if this would have been just "normal" bidding system:
Oz bids fucking low 140 Kahn or whoever bids 200...
Jaedong now can decide if he stays with the team he likes or the team that pays more...
But instead we got: OZ bids a fucking low 140 and other teams would have to bid 280 + jaedongs new loan.
To compare this to soccer..
Ronaldo is what worth now? 95 Millions?
A new team would have to bid 190 Millions the get him + a loan that is probably higher 95 Millions to get him.
This system makes players that aren't overpriced VERY expensive to buy, which is retarded. Jaedong for 140 is a bargain, Jaedong for 280 + 140+++ is extremly expensive.
Well Said. I was wondering what this "FA rule" is all about.
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
Okay key points
- Final decision seems to be in the hands of Jaedong's parents - Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study - But Jaedong given more time (28th to 31st) to negotiate further with Hwaseung - Hwaseung team shows no desire to let Jaedong retire
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
Okay key points
- Final decision seems to be in the hands of Jaedong's parents - Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study - But Jaedong given more time (28th to 31st) to negotiate further with Hwaseung - Hwaseung team shows no desire to let Jaedong retire
If JD retires then the whole league is gonna blow wide open.many players are gonna get the chance to win their 1st tourney.so it's a good thing for them.but,the fans sure as hell won't like to see JD retire so soon.
On August 26 2009 16:37 BloodDrunK wrote: If JD retires then the whole league is gonna blow wide open.many players are gonna get the chance to win their 1st tourney.so it's a good thing for them.but,the fans sure as hell won't like to see JD retire so soon.
They should rename every single tournament with the suffix "...but without Jaedong"
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
Okay key points
- Final decision seems to be in the hands of Jaedong's parents - Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study - But Jaedong given more time (28th to 31st) to negotiate further with Hwaseung - Hwaseung team shows no desire to let Jaedong retire
Basically Jaedong's parents are being -____-
If negotiations fail Jaedong should come to Canada and study with me. We can be bffs. He can teach me the way of the zerg and I can teach him the way of the Canada, eh.
JD should come to SUNY SB. There is a huge Asian (Korean and Chinese specifically) population here; in fact they're the majority. Some of these kids just get by on their English >_> Got a ton of Majors here.
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
- Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study
Hasn't college semester already started in the US? I know it was around mid-late August back when I was in school. I don't think that has changed, has it?
If Jaedong waits a year, he might as well turn semi-pro and decide everything next year.
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
- Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study
Hasn't college semester already started in the US? I know it was around mid-late August back when I was in school. I don't think that has changed, has it?
If Jaedong waits a year, he might as well turn semi-pro and decide everything next year.
he could start second semester, but that might be less convienent and scheduling/courses might be less flexibible/available
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
- Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study
Hasn't college semester already started in the US? I know it was around mid-late August back when I was in school. I don't think that has changed, has it?
If Jaedong waits a year, he might as well turn semi-pro and decide everything next year.
he could start second semester, but that might be less convienent and scheduling/courses might be less flexibible/available
That's pretty close to unfeasible due to Jaedong being an international undergrad student. And I believe his English, according to those who went to last year's WCG, isn't exactly fluent. Cutting into school from the spring semester isn't easy to do.
On August 26 2009 15:43 Athos wrote: Yea! Thanks for the update konadora!
Any new details besides that?
- Jaedong's dad said that if negotiations fail, Jaedong will probably retire and go to the US to study
Hasn't college semester already started in the US? I know it was around mid-late August back when I was in school. I don't think that has changed, has it?
If Jaedong waits a year, he might as well turn semi-pro and decide everything next year.
he could start second semester, but that might be less convienent and scheduling/courses might be less flexibible/available
That's pretty close to unfeasible due to Jaedong being an international undergrad student. And I believe his English, according to those who went to last year's WCG, isn't exactly fluent. Cutting into school from the spring semester isn't easy to do.
hmm, now that you've mentioned it, i've never really considered the language barrier or cultural differences sending JD to uni is getting more and more ridonkulous
On August 26 2009 19:47 MK wrote: lol let's make a eSports union to protect players :D
Thats whats missing in korea. A professional sport business needs a KESPA like organization to set up the rules but also something like a players union to fight for the rights of the players and as a balance to KESPA.
If Oz is not willing to keep Jaedong for 250M salary+bonus I'm going to hate OZ with a passion. I'll actively hex all their PL games. I'll learn black magic and voodoo just for the occasion.
When I'm well versed in black voodoo crap I will curse the one responsible at Oz and make him lose his scrotum in a painful way.
Paying peanuts to the one who dragged you to the PL finals. Coach saying he's their best player ever but does not value his worth...Fuck you Oz!
Man, Jaedong retiring at the height of his career would be a travesty. With all the hard work he puts in and his dedication, he deserves the highest salary, especially since he comes up with results. I also want to see a platinum mouse.
we should gather some money here at TL, like every member gives 10$ orso and form our own team, with the captain being Jaedong with a paycheck worthy of him! ;p
nahh but seriously if Oz won't give Jaedong a decent pay, i'm gonna have to change my teamicon and be a JD supporter instead of Oz supporter from now on :<
On August 26 2009 19:47 konadora wrote: Lol @ discussion as though it's already decided that Jaedong is retiring :p
I hope he does.
Use this to kick up a shit-storm about how terrible KeSPA is, and then return to the scene for SC2, free of the yoke that is KeSPA.
He could use a month or two of rest, and it's not like he'd have trouble getting into the beta for SC2.
By the way, the rule that says semi-pros can't play in OGN/MSL prelims is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard - why would you want to make it impossible to be an independent pro?
It would be too early for Jaedong to retire. He would probley go for semi pro if he cant get his former team to take him back. But I have a feeling Jaedong wont be a semi pro
There's zero benefits to being semi-pro though. No salary, no nothing. He'd just be sitting around practicing all the time but with no leagues to show off in, spare maybe GOM. His options are #1) sign with OZ, or #2) retire and use his time to either get his military service out of the way or begin his studies (the latter is what they're considering seriously).
On August 26 2009 03:30 Blueblister wrote: While feeling bad for Jaedong, I really hope for all of programmings sake that his parents stand firm and retire their son. That would force Kespa to review their current rules.
On August 26 2009 01:55 Plexa wrote: Aside from all the KeSPA BS, I'm actually pretty surprised at how honorable the teams were in this process. Instead of bidding on Jaedong and forcing him to becoming contracted to them, they instead respected his wishes to stay on Oz (despite parents saying otherwise). Good day for e-sports in this regard.
However, FA still sucks.
Claiming it's because they are respecting Jaedongs wishes are form of good media relations in my own eyes. Kespa and the proleague-management have a long history of exploiting young inexperienced players for their own advantage.
That none of the other teams have made an offer means that he's either (1) to expensive to sign (beacuse of the "play tripple for FAs" rule), or (2) that the teams cooperate to keep player-wages low.
(Probably the last one, since go.go was the only FA offered a new contract.)
Both explanations are unacceptable.
I agree, its the break of the war against players rights in korea, or it should be atleast. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQEMLPkilyI&fmt=18 Jedi mind tricks, On the eve of war, kinda derailing but at the same time it expresses very well the kind of feeling and meaning that should be held by the starcraft community against kespa and against team collaboration about keeping salaries low.
I propose that the starcraft community fight for jaedong and esports in general especially players rights. and not just the netizens of the FA community either, this is a damn violation of JD's rights to put it simply. Think about it logically, no teams what-so-ever bid for jaedong, even though it was an auction. Does this make any sense? no it makes no sense because its team collaboration to fuck an amazing player over to keep some won for the greedy team managers and whoever else benefits and gets the cash. Am i wrong in thinking that is whats going on behind the curtains, do i have the wrong ideas? Because if im wrong i will gladly change my viewpoint, as well as my post.
Why would other teams care about saving Oz won? There's no incentive to "fuck over" another player to help save a rival team some money. Look at the money they are already dropping for their own players. Teams obviously are dropping money in the first place to acquire these players, it's merely a cost/benefit analysis on whether or not it would be worth it.
I think you need to lay off conspiracy theories.
About Kespa (Korean e-Sports "Players" Association) The sort of cost/benefit analysis you mention only applies if there is a free market (ie. full information, number of teams able to bid = ∞, etc.)! This is an oligopoly.
In this oligopoly a team sponsor might gain on a short-term basis from paying up and acquiring one good player, but it (as well as every other Kespa team sponsors) would certanly loose long-term as a result of player-wages going up.
To make matters even worse, the people in control of the Kespa board is representatives from the broadcasting channels (OGN and MBC) and team sponsors. Normally organisations similar to Kespa would be run by some sorts of player representatives.
This connotation of this is: The same people who decides on negotiation terms for the players, later negotiate with the players bound by these terms!
On August 26 2009 19:58 Eeevil wrote: Paying peanuts to the one who dragged you to the PL finals. Coach saying he's their best player ever but does not value his worth...Fuck you Oz!
On August 26 2009 19:58 Eeevil wrote: Paying peanuts to the one who dragged you to the PL finals. Coach saying he's their best player ever but does not value his worth...Fuck you Oz!
Do you really think it's up to coach?
Paying peanuts to the one who dragged you to the PL finals. Coach saying he's their best player ever but Oz does not value his worth...Fuck you Oz
Fixed
But I'm getting ahead of myself. I still have good hopes for Jaedong remaining in Oz.
The one thing that pisses me off though is that Jaedong himself has got no say in the matter.
His parents played bad thinking FA would get him millions more from the other teams thinking the golden mouse had high market value.
They were wrong.
Because of their greed (because JD doesn't seem overworked where he'll die and prolly won the mouse because of so much work while Fantasy sucked it up) JD now suffers.
Added to this fucking Kespa had to put in the double rule. Bunch of bitches.
What a story. JD retiring cannot run to the states cause he has to learn english first that would take 2-3 months I guess? TheAntz was mentioning that he could instead win courage again by retiring and then a team could pick him up for 200+ ? Is that possible? When is Courage tournament?
So Jaedong is fucked... I Know feel really bad cus he is being a slave. I just hope that he retires as one of the best progamers ever, maybe now Bisu or flash will take his spot. But I will hate that he would get a contract with Oz for like 140M won... thats not worth carrying his team until Proleague finals.
lol Bisu Fans will be so happy since he will be no.1 (of course it is not that fulfilling since he didn't have a chance to defeat the dong in real battle)
On August 27 2009 02:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol Bisu Fans will be so happy since he will be no.1 (of course it is not that fulfilling since he didn't have a chance to defeat the dong in real battle)
On August 27 2009 02:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol Bisu Fans will be so happy since he will be no.1 (of course it is not that fulfilling since he didn't have a chance to defeat the dong in real battle)
no one will be happy if Jaedong decides to retire
Yeah. You should be ashamed if you are happy when JD retires.
On August 27 2009 02:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol Bisu Fans will be so happy since he will be no.1 (of course it is not that fulfilling since he didn't have a chance to defeat the dong in real battle)
Not relevant, and not true in any part.
Jaedong retiring is bad for everyone. Its bad for viewers because it removes a great player, it's bad for other players because it sets a bad precedent in player-team relations, and it's bad for KeSPA/Teams because it will hurt Esports in the long run.
Free agency in pro gaming is a joke. It seems like any team can just low ball their players by allowing them to become a free agent and then giving them a shitty offer at the end of the free agency period. The player has absolutely no power. If they don't like the option they're forced to become a semi-pro or retire. Jesus.
On August 27 2009 02:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol Bisu Fans will be so happy since he will be no.1 (of course it is not that fulfilling since he didn't have a chance to defeat the dong in real battle)
no one will be happy if Jaedong decides to retire
Yeah. You should be ashamed if you are happy when JD retires.
LOL, your sarcasm detection is weak.. (did you think I am serious with that post)
How the hell I'm going to be happy if The Dong retires? He is like a big hero for me because of his uncanny mental state and limitless determination!
This is all KESPA, they are secretly pulling the strings behind the scenes. This is their way of artificially making it so zergs are as a whole weaker than the previous season. For example, after the six dragons started doing well, the next map pool included ...battle royal, a completely zerg favoured map. After both the osl and the msl have ZvZ finals, KeSPA has decided that zergs are too strong and now they want to get rid of the top zerg.
Nothing is decided yet, he can still resign with Oz.
On August 27 2009 04:04 OreoBoi wrote: This is all KESPA, they are secretly pulling the strings behind the scenes. This is their way of artificially making it so zergs are as a whole weaker than the previous season. For example, after the six dragons started doing well, the next map pool included ...battle royal, a completely zerg favoured map. After both the osl and the msl have ZvZ finals, KeSPA has decided that zergs are too strong and now they want to get rid of the top zerg.
In every pro sport league there is one, that protects players from this stuff. Sure, the league is relatively small, but I want to see KeSPA not negotiate when players decide to go on strike if demands are not met. Considering that the whole marketing for BW pro play is based on stars, they'd have to be reasonable - otherwise all the money they spent on advertising Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and other players that went diving would work against them.
edit: the whole worker union thing has been tested, and the way I see it, they are turning teams into high-paying entertainment sweatshops. In any change of rules, all sides are supposed to be a part of the move, leaving the players out of the loop is called abusive management.
second edit: If Jaedong decides to go to a US college, it'll be funny seeing him rip apart the CSL.
@evil - Probably 'fuck Hwaseung', not 'fuck Oz'. But when you start doing that you might as well go 'fuck Kespa'.
On August 27 2009 02:51 MrHoon wrote: Retiring and coming back is not an option I think people are forgetting, if you forfeit your gaming license you cannot be a progamer for 5 years. Jaedong cannot just "rest for 5 months" and then return back immediately. Even if he could, he would have to go through draft again, then wait another month for proleague roster to refresh etc etc.
On August 24 2009 15:54 Day[9] wrote:
as far as i'm concerned, much of the progaming scene is one giant human rights violation. players and parents NEED to start pushing for better playing conditions and players' rights!!!
I'm beginning to understand what Day[9] meant. I can't find any English version of KESPA rules. But this kind of stuff is ridiculous.
I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
On August 27 2009 04:43 iamho wrote: I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
How do you know that at all? Only one team publicly said that. The enormous cost of signing him and backroom collusion are what kept him from getting signed by another team.
On August 27 2009 04:43 iamho wrote: I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
"Another team mentioned that the main issue was Jaedong's salary. They said that it would be better to use the money for more areas instead of just on one player."
I hate to say this, but it might be best for JD to go study in the US. He'll leave as the best player of all time and pro-BW is almost over. Also, him and I can be best friends for ever.
On August 27 2009 04:43 iamho wrote: I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
How do you know that at all? Only one team publicly said that. The enormous cost of signing him and backroom collusion are what kept him from getting signed by another team.
Allow me to enlighten you as to how the free agency in the NBA goes. Over the course of two months, any team can make any offer, and the player gets to choose which one he likes best. Teams do not have to pay anyone for the right to make an offer. He is forced to retire only if no team made any offer whatsoever. If he isn't under contract, any team that so chooses can at any point make an offer which if he feels like taking, he can.
This is how a free agency is supposed to work in a league where player's rights are guarded and in extreme cases are willing to go on strike.
On August 27 2009 04:43 iamho wrote: I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
"Another team mentioned that the main issue was Jaedong's salary. They said that it would be better to use the money for more areas instead of just on one player."
That's because to acquire JD under the FA rules, the team would have to pay Oz a whole bunch of money in addition to JD's own salary.
On August 27 2009 04:43 iamho wrote: I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
How do you know that at all? Only one team publicly said that. The enormous cost of signing him and backroom collusion are what kept him from getting signed by another team.
Allow me to enlighten you as to how the free agency in the NBA goes. Over the course of two months, any team can make any offer, and the player gets to choose which one he likes best. Teams do not have to pay anyone for the right to make an offer. He is forced to retire only if no team made any offer whatsoever. If he isn't under contract, any team that so chooses can at any point make an offer which if he feels like taking, he can.
This is how a free agency is supposed to work in a league where player's rights are guarded and in extreme cases are willing to go on strike.
I think you quoted the wrong person. o.o NBA free agency isn't perfect either, but the balance is split between players and owners better than MLB and NFL, and certainly moreso than Kespa. I assume the founders of Kespa didn't actually know what the english meant when they chose the name, because I think it's always been comprised of team management only.
On August 27 2009 04:43 iamho wrote: I wish people will stop bashing KeSPA. Even if they did change the rules, the other teams would show respect for JD's wish to stay in Oz and Oz could still just pay the same salary.
"Another team mentioned that the main issue was Jaedong's salary. They said that it would be better to use the money for more areas instead of just on one player."
That's because to acquire JD under the FA rules, the team would have to pay Oz a whole bunch of money in addition to JD's own salary.
Yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make, if KeSPA didn't make all these regulations, JD would have a easier time getting signed.
hm, is the labor position in the nba stronger than it is in mlb? with a salary cap and maximum deals in the nba, i don't see how that union is stronger than the marvin miller juggernauts in mlb. although, the baseball draft is tilted more to the owners.
On August 27 2009 04:58 Orbifold wrote: I hate to say this, but it might be best for JD to go study in the US. He'll leave as the best player of all time and pro-BW is almost over. Also, him and I can be best friends for ever.
BW is far from being over, when people will understand that SC2 (lol beta in 1 year) won't make SC disappear as soon as it comes out.
On August 27 2009 05:37 oneofthem wrote: hm, is the labor position in the nba stronger than it is in mlb? with a salary cap and maximum deals in the nba, i don't see how that union is stronger than the marvin miller juggernauts in mlb. although, the baseball draft is tilted more to the owners.
Baseball players union is far and away the strongest, while NFL is one of the weakest. I think NBA is somewhere in between and has a good system set up.
On August 27 2009 05:37 oneofthem wrote: hm, is the labor position in the nba stronger than it is in mlb? with a salary cap and maximum deals in the nba, i don't see how that union is stronger than the marvin miller juggernauts in mlb. although, the baseball draft is tilted more to the owners.
Baseball players union is far and away the strongest, while NFL is one of the weakest. I think NBA is somewhere in between and has a good system set up.
I dunno how much this matters but I know that the 27th pick in the NFL draft gets waaaaay more money than the 15th pick in the NBA draft.
On August 27 2009 04:25 Kazius wrote: Two words to fix this: Player's Association.
In every pro sport league there is one, that protects players from this stuff. Sure, the league is relatively small, but I want to see KeSPA not negotiate when players decide to go on strike if demands are not met. Considering that the whole marketing for BW pro play is based on stars, they'd have to be reasonable - otherwise all the money they spent on advertising Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and other players that went diving would work against them.
edit: the whole worker union thing has been tested, and the way I see it, they are turning teams into high-paying entertainment sweatshops. In any change of rules, all sides are supposed to be a part of the move, leaving the players out of the loop is called abusive management.
second edit: If Jaedong decides to go to a US college, it'll be funny seeing him rip apart the CSL.
On August 27 2009 02:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol Bisu Fans will be so happy since he will be no.1 (of course it is not that fulfilling since he didn't have a chance to defeat the dong in real battle)
Not relevant, and not true in any part.
Jaedong retiring is bad for everyone. Its bad for viewers because it removes a great player, it's bad for other players because it sets a bad precedent in player-team relations, and it's bad for KeSPA/Teams because it will hurt Esports in the long run.
Not true. Jaedong retiring would very likely benefit other players because the fans will hopefully demand some changes in future negotiation terms. This would primarily be bad for Kespa(OGN+MBC+Sponsors), since the organization would loose a lot of public good will. Sure it would be bad for viewers of next season, but if this leads to better terms for the players it will be worth it for us in the long haul.
Frankly, the only one I'm feeling sorry for is Jaedong. His parents can either let him continue living his dream despite knowing he's getting used by Kespa. Or they can force him to leave, and potentially live a more humane and less stressfull life. But in that case their son will not be able to do what he loves, they will risk him getting bitter at them and it could potentially endanger their entire relationship.
How would you react if you're parents forced you away from something similar?
This "free agency" system is a text-book example of a system that is designed to fail at its intended goal. The purpose of a free agency system is to allow players leverage in getting more money out of teams, by forcing teams to compete for them.
However, under this system, Jaedong's former team has to be paid for the privilege of taking Jaedong away, on top of Jaedong's salary. This is price pressure against Jaedong's salary.
This "free agency" is nothing of the kind. It is designed to keep players where they are, getting paid what they currently get paid.
Maybe Jaedong should re-sign with OZ and punish them by sucking in the Proleague deliberately. Just go out there and 4-pool every time. You don't have to practice to 4-pool.
Hey - what would KeSPA say to JD making a new team if he were to find sponsorship? (Supposing things fell apart with Hwaseung Oz, which is by all accounts where he belongs)
KeSPA could easily make up an arbitrary rule like "Semi-pros can't form their own teams." along with "pros can't form their own team if they are currently under contract". There, problem solved.
Ok, if thats the case then they are at least not pretending to represent the players. Thumbs up!
This still doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the regulator and decides which players who are eligible to play. Kespa govern crucial strategic functions traditionally handled by player associations.
On August 27 2009 06:25 oBlade wrote: Hey - what would KeSPA say to JD making a new team if he were to find sponsorship? (Supposing things fell apart with Hwaseung Oz, which is by all accounts where he belongs)
they would not allow jd's team participation in osl and msl, nor the team leagues. probably no tv coverage either.
On August 27 2009 05:37 oneofthem wrote: hm, is the labor position in the nba stronger than it is in mlb? with a salary cap and maximum deals in the nba, i don't see how that union is stronger than the marvin miller juggernauts in mlb. although, the baseball draft is tilted more to the owners.
Baseball players union is far and away the strongest, while NFL is one of the weakest. I think NBA is somewhere in between and has a good system set up.
I dunno how much this matters but I know that the 27th pick in the NFL draft gets waaaaay more money than the 15th pick in the NBA draft.
That's because the NFL system for paying rookies is stupid. They pay too much money to rookies, especially the top 5-10. Those top few picks make more money than the stars in their position. After that, however, they have less protection. Teams can just cast injured players aside, even though the NFL is the most dangerous out of the major leagues.
On August 27 2009 05:37 oneofthem wrote: hm, is the labor position in the nba stronger than it is in mlb? with a salary cap and maximum deals in the nba, i don't see how that union is stronger than the marvin miller juggernauts in mlb. although, the baseball draft is tilted more to the owners.
Baseball players union is far and away the strongest, while NFL is one of the weakest. I think NBA is somewhere in between and has a good system set up.
I dunno how much this matters but I know that the 27th pick in the NFL draft gets waaaaay more money than the 15th pick in the NBA draft.
That's because the NFL system for paying rookies is stupid. They pay too much money to rookies, especially the top 5-10. Those top few picks make more money than the stars in their position. After that, however, they have less protection. Teams can just cast injured players aside, even though the NFL is the most dangerous out of the major leagues.
yeh tell me about it, how much is stafford going to make with his stint at lions? 50mil guaranteed? ridiculous.
On August 27 2009 05:37 oneofthem wrote: hm, is the labor position in the nba stronger than it is in mlb? with a salary cap and maximum deals in the nba, i don't see how that union is stronger than the marvin miller juggernauts in mlb. although, the baseball draft is tilted more to the owners.
Baseball players union is far and away the strongest, while NFL is one of the weakest. I think NBA is somewhere in between and has a good system set up.
I dunno how much this matters but I know that the 27th pick in the NFL draft gets waaaaay more money than the 15th pick in the NBA draft.
That's because the NFL system for paying rookies is stupid. They pay too much money to rookies, especially the top 5-10. Those top few picks make more money than the stars in their position. After that, however, they have less protection. Teams can just cast injured players aside, even though the NFL is the most dangerous out of the major leagues.
yeh tell me about it, how much is stafford going to make with his stint at lions? 50mil guaranteed? ridiculous.
the slotting draft system is an atypical contract situation in the nfl. most of the time guys are expendable and signed to nonguaranteed contracts.
however overrated stafford may be, the lions have no choice but to sign him. even so, if he works out then he won't be overpaid at all, given the importance of qb in that league
imo, dad should let Jaedong play for a while longer, until SC2 comes out and all that. He is at the peak of his career right now and should ride the wave of success. School can wait a year longer
This is a travesty. Unbelievable. Even if JD does resign with Oz he won't be able to play in the starleagues for a while. Where are the protests? Starcraft is the second most popular sport in korea and not a single fan is picketing?
On August 27 2009 08:48 Warrior Madness wrote: This is a travesty. Unbelievable. Even if JD does resign with Oz he won't be able to play in the starleagues for a while. Where are the protests? Starcraft is the second most popular sport in korea and not a single fan is picketing?
y wouldn't he be able to play in starleagues for a while? i thought as long as he re-signs with OZ before August 31st, everything returns back to normal.
On August 27 2009 06:04 Blueblister wrote: Not true. Jaedong retiring would very likely benefit other players because the fans will hopefully demand some changes in future negotiation terms. This would primarily be bad for Kespa(OGN+MBC+Sponsors), since the organization would loose a lot of public good will. Sure it would be bad for viewers of next season, but if this leads to better terms for the players it will be worth it for us in the long haul.
This is based on a huge number of "ifs" though. As a single event, Jaedong's retirement is bad for everyone.
On August 27 2009 06:04 Blueblister wrote: How would you react if you're parents forced you away from something similar?
Unhappy but grateful. As much as Jaedong loves playing for Hwaseung, he has to be really naive not to see how badly he's being exploited and how much his rights as a player are being trampled on at his current salary. As much as he may disagree with his parents' position, there's is the only logical one to have.
As much as he may disagree with his parents' position, there's is the only logical one to have.
So, the options are back to:
1: OZ gives Jaedong more money
2: Jaedong retires.
I fail to see the logic here. Jaedong is possibly not even at his peak yet. He just won back-to-back OSLs; he has a good shot at winning a 4th, doing something that nobody has done before. The Golden Mouse is old hat; Jaedong can do far better. He can prove that he is the best StarCraft player to touch the keyboard.
I understand why they wanted to go for free agency. But the FA rules are so anti-player that it was basically a guarantee for Jaedong to retire.
On August 27 2009 10:56 NicolBolas wrote: I fail to see the logic here. Jaedong is possibly not even at his peak yet. He just won back-to-back OSLs; he has a good shot at winning a 4th, doing something that nobody has done before. The Golden Mouse is old hat; Jaedong can do far better. He can prove that he is the best StarCraft player to touch the keyboard.
Except fame isn't everything. I'm sure they recognize that their son is an absolute genius, but he's reaping very little real benefit from it. He works harder and gets paid less than players that are half as accomplished as he is. Given that they want to send him to college, I'm sure they're looking out for the long haul. Being the best player to ever play Starcraft is nice and all, but there's no guarantee that will mean anything 20-30 years from now. And if working himself nearly to death isn't making things easier (in terms of financial security) for him in the long run, then what's he getting out of it?
if i were jaedong i would take less money and sign for like a 1-2 year deal if oz doesn't promise to bring in some more help/talent screw retiring not even 20 years old yet
On August 27 2009 10:56 NicolBolas wrote: I fail to see the logic here. Jaedong is possibly not even at his peak yet. He just won back-to-back OSLs; he has a good shot at winning a 4th, doing something that nobody has done before. The Golden Mouse is old hat; Jaedong can do far better. He can prove that he is the best StarCraft player to touch the keyboard.
Except fame isn't everything. I'm sure they recognize that their son is an absolute genius, but he's reaping very little real benefit from it. He works harder and gets paid less than players that are half as accomplished as he is. Given that they want to send him to college, I'm sure they're looking out for the long haul. Being the best player to ever play Starcraft is nice and all, but there's no guarantee that will mean anything 20-30 years from now. And if working himself nearly to death isn't making things easier (in terms of financial security) for him in the long run, then what's he getting out of it?
I generally agree with this post, good call. +1 to you
On August 27 2009 11:08 TheYango wrote: Being the best player to ever play Starcraft is nice and all, but there's no guarantee that will mean anything 20-30 years from now.
As long as the industry is around, coaching. He can go as long as he wants on coaching, retire comfortably and let that be that.
This is bad business irregardless, but I felt the need to point that out.
I can't believe no-one would make ANY offers for JD. They can give the excuse that he 'wanted' to stay at oz, but I bet they knew he would be better served in another team.
I feel sorry for him. It feels like he has no say whatsoever. Such talent, and ridiculously wasted.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that Jaedong retiring is bad for Kespa. It may cause some short term problems. But over the long run I sincerely doubt it matters. Kespa has done a ton of shit so far and fans have not done anything about it besides bitching on the internet. I really don't think Jaedong retiring is going to change that. For Kespa, maintaining the lowest possible salaries for players is more important than Jaedong's contribution to the league.
The only thing that can change the status quo is for fans to boycott the games. Don't watch them on TV. Don't go to the MBC/OGN studios to watch. As long as that doesn't happen, the industry doesn't give a damn.
On August 27 2009 08:48 Warrior Madness wrote: This is a travesty. Unbelievable. Even if JD does resign with Oz he won't be able to play in the starleagues for a while. Where are the protests? Starcraft is the second most popular sport in korea and not a single fan is picketing?
y wouldn't he be able to play in starleagues for a while? i thought as long as he re-signs with OZ before August 31st, everything returns back to normal.
I thought I read it earlier in the thread, which infuriates me if true, or if I understood what was said correctly.
Some of you guys don't understand, Oz and KeSPA are SCREWING Jaedong over because he's young and immature. Oz is exploiting the horribly unfair rules of FA to get Jaedong at a premium. In addition to all monetary issues, it's also a matter of principle. JD's parents totally have the right to protest the laughable, insulting amount that Oz plans to pay Jaedong. If this is indicative of how KeSPA and other pro-teams will act in the future, Jaedong should best get out now if he doesn't feel like dealing with the bullshit.
NFL definitely has the worst. However, the NBA has the most reasonable rookie salary scale, and NFL rookies can definitely get paid a ton more than NBA rookies. But, once you get past that first contract, NBA money is guaranteed, while in the NFL all that really counts is the guaranteed portion of your contract, not the actual numbers. It's true that the NBA has max salaries while the NFL doesn't, but both leagues have a pretty hard salary cap (as in you really suffer financially if you go over it) and so the super elite NBA players end up getting paid more than the super elite NFL players.
MLB players have it the best - arbitrary length and size guaranteed contracts.
On August 27 2009 15:54 n wrote: Some of you guys don't understand, Oz and KeSPA are SCREWING Jaedong over because he's young and immature. Oz is exploiting the horribly unfair rules of FA to get Jaedong at a premium. In addition to all monetary issues, it's also a matter of principle. JD's parents totally have the right to protest the laughable, insulting amount that Oz plans to pay Jaedong. If this is indicative of how KeSPA and other pro-teams will act in the future, Jaedong should best get out now if he doesn't feel like dealing with the bullshit.
Exactly. Hoping for Jaedong to blindly accept that offer just so that you can keep seeing him play is kinda selfish tbh. Time for Jaedong and other pro to realise who's really creating wealth for KeSPA and the teams.
I think Jaedong wants to stay with Oz but he knows he could be getting double or triple pay somewhere else where he wouldn't have to have as grueling a schedule and pressure.
He knows he's being taken advantage off and Oz will try to pay him less/least possible as they can use the threat of not signing him at all forcing him into semi pro status with no team. JD is the #1 player and saddly the worst paid in proportion to his skill/performance.
I wish SKT1 had just bought him regardless of the cost and thus next year when Kespa should hopefully not exist anymore and GOM takes over everything SC2 related we can be at ease that players get a fair deal.
I think JD should take a year of in the army and come back for SC2 and get a contract of his chosing then.
On August 27 2009 14:53 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: As long as the industry is around, coaching. He can go as long as he wants on coaching, retire comfortably and let that be that.
There's no guarantee that coaching is any kind of satisfying lifestyle, and there's certainly no guarantee that Jaedong would be happy with that prospect, particularly if its for a game that isn't Starcraft.
On August 27 2009 14:53 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: As long as the industry is around, coaching. He can go as long as he wants on coaching, retire comfortably and let that be that.
There's no guarantee that coaching is any kind of satisfying lifestyle, and there's certainly no guarantee that Jaedong would be happy with that prospect, particularly if its for a game that isn't Starcraft.
Yeah I think coaching would probably be JD's most frustrating option.
Some updates: Go.go to WeMade Terminated Basically go.go wanted to go to WeMade and WeMade wanted him in but go.go's parents wanted a contract similar to Mind or Light. That and the competition for the terran ace against Mind and NaDa as well as the complication of moving to a new team resulted in the contract not going through.
So go.go now has until the 31st to work something out with hite or he will become a semi-pro and wait for the next FA.
Hery and ZergBong to become KT coaches Yep. Hery, who was traded to STX for awhile will now go back to his old team and become their coach, along with ZergBong who's been playing the coaching roll for awhile now anyways.
Hery and ZergBong to become KT coaches Yep. Hery, who was traded to STX for awhile will now go back to his old team and become their coach, along with ZergBong who's been playing the coaching roll for awhile now anyways.
LOL, Zergbong?!?!?! as coach?!?!?! Zergbong is TERRIBLE, it was already bad enough when he was team captain, but now coach? KT's zergs are gonna suck, Luxury should just commit seppuku
Hery and ZergBong to become KT coaches Yep. Hery, who was traded to STX for awhile will now go back to his old team and become their coach, along with ZergBong who's been playing the coaching roll for awhile now anyways.
LOL, Zergbong?!?!?! as coach?!?!?! Zergbong is TERRIBLE, it was already bad enough when he was team captain, but now coach? KT's zergs are gonna suck, Luxury should just commit seppuku
Just because you aren't a great player in starcraft (mechanically or what have you) doesn't mean you aren't able to understand how to be good at a game. I'm sure his knowledge of the game isn't "terrible".
Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
On August 28 2009 02:58 Live2Win wrote: Some updates: Go.go to WeMade Terminated Basically go.go wanted to go to WeMade and WeMade wanted him in but go.go's parents wanted a contract similar to Mind or Light. That and the competition for the terran ace against Mind and NaDa as well as the complication of moving to a new team resulted in the contract not going through.
So go.go now has until the 31st to work something out with hite or he will become a semi-pro and wait for the next FA.
Hery and ZergBong to become KT coaches Yep. Hery, who was traded to STX for awhile will now go back to his old team and become their coach, along with ZergBong who's been playing the coaching roll for awhile now anyways.
Hery and ZergBong to become KT coaches Yep. Hery, who was traded to STX for awhile will now go back to his old team and become their coach, along with ZergBong who's been playing the coaching roll for awhile now anyways.
LOL, Zergbong?!?!?! as coach?!?!?! Zergbong is TERRIBLE, it was already bad enough when he was team captain, but now coach? KT's zergs are gonna suck, Luxury should just commit seppuku
Furthermore, him and Reach were one of the best 2v2 teams iirc. With the removal of 2v2 from proleague many former 2v2 star players have got the reputation of sucking at the game.
On August 28 2009 02:58 Live2Win wrote: Some updates: Go.go to WeMade Terminated Basically go.go wanted to go to WeMade and WeMade wanted him in but go.go's parents wanted a contract similar to Mind or Light. That and the competition for the terran ace against Mind and NaDa as well as the complication of moving to a new team resulted in the contract not going through.
So go.go now has until the 31st to work something out with hite or he will become a semi-pro and wait for the next FA.
Kespa 3 Parents 2 Players 0. Nice to see Hery and Zergbong as coaches now. Who's gonna be the new KT captain? I think the next most senior player is probably 815.
I'm happy go.go is staying with sparkyz he's a good player and all, but how well will he perform when he had his sights on leaving the team for a better contract and is instead not getting it?
How can go.go's parents actually think that he's been successful or popular enough to be earning a contract the size of Light's? Nevertheless, even the suggestion would have infuriated wemade, which is already full-stocked with terran players.
Parents seem to be fucking things up. These progamers should be declared independents or something, it's their hard work and dedication that has gotten them the opportunity to be progamers and the fact that their parents have the final say is unfair and regrettable.
Though Jaedong should be in the top 3 in terms of pay I don't think it's fair to say only receiving 200M Won is terrible, I mean that's still $160k a year and if I read correctly it sounds like that is roughly what he would've been receiving with salary+bonuses.
edit: Btw I would think Boxer/Bisu/Jaedong also have opportunities to make decent side money though endorsement and commercial type deals right?
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
On August 27 2009 02:51 MrHoon wrote: Retiring and coming back is not an option
I think people are forgetting, if you forfeit your gaming license you cannot be a progamer for 5 years.
Jaedong cannot just "rest for 5 months" and then return back immediately.
Even if he could, he would have to go through draft again, then wait another month for proleague roster to refresh etc etc.
Do OSL and MSL allow amatures to participate in their offline preliminaries? If so Jaedong can just continue his dominates as an amature, and live off the prize money alone. Just no proleague appearances.
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
Yea, I'm not trying to force the issue here, it's just I always feel extremely jealous when I hear things like this. Then I watched around 100 games always getting them translated and I saw nothing.
On August 27 2009 02:51 MrHoon wrote: Retiring and coming back is not an option
I think people are forgetting, if you forfeit your gaming license you cannot be a progamer for 5 years.
Jaedong cannot just "rest for 5 months" and then return back immediately.
Even if he could, he would have to go through draft again, then wait another month for proleague roster to refresh etc etc.
Do OSL and MSL allow amatures to participate in their offline preliminaries? If so Jaedong can just continue his dominates as an amature, and live off the prize money alone. Just no proleague appearances.
nope, must have license apparently =( another bad rule imo
On August 28 2009 06:20 Jonoman92 wrote: Parents seem to be fucking things up. These progamers should be declared independents or something, it's their hard work and dedication that has gotten them the opportunity to be progamers and the fact that their parents have the final say is unfair and regrettable.
I find it hard to call trying to get their children a fair deal "fucking things up". The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
On August 28 2009 06:20 Jonoman92 wrote: Though Jaedong should be in the top 3 in terms of pay I don't think it's fair to say only receiving 200M Won is terrible, I mean that's still $160k a year and if I read correctly it sounds like that is roughly what he would've been receiving with salary+bonuses.
The whole reason Jaedong turned down Oz was because he WASN'T receiving 200M KRW. IIRC, that's the original number that Jaedong's parents deemed acceptable, and the offer that Hwaseung came out with was 140M KRW.
On August 27 2009 02:51 MrHoon wrote: Retiring and coming back is not an option
I think people are forgetting, if you forfeit your gaming license you cannot be a progamer for 5 years.
Jaedong cannot just "rest for 5 months" and then return back immediately.
Even if he could, he would have to go through draft again, then wait another month for proleague roster to refresh etc etc.
Do OSL and MSL allow amatures to participate in their offline preliminaries? If so Jaedong can just continue his dominates as an amature, and live off the prize money alone. Just no proleague appearances.
No. Unsigned semi-pros USED to be allowed to participate in individual leagues, but Kespa changed that at some point.
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
someone who is super annoying is 정소림. i'm always tempted to go mute when she's casting. and adding to that, 주훈 was SO BAD when he was commentating
when it was a PL day with those two, i always begged themarine would come in and save the commentating for the day.
On August 28 2009 06:43 noddyz wrote: Parents seem more a problem than kespa or free agency in general.
What kind of an age is 20 before you can decide your own contracts? Seems crazy.
can you imagine if NBA players had to negotiate their own contracts without agents?
and in a tiny room with just a few days time limit?
and if they dont say yes, there's a governing body that rigs and colludes between teams to keep their salaries super low?
and after that their original team can pay them slave labor rates?
of course JD is going to say "yeah i just want to play." every kid would say that. jaedongs parents should be applauded for sticking up for their son. he deserves better and I'm happy his parents are protesting against KeSPA fuck JD and all other players over with this ridiculous FA system.
Remember Casy's crazy fake-fe stunt vs July on Reverse Temple? Here's what those three were saying during this moment of pure genius.
5:43 Kim Carry's thinking casy's going for an scv/marine rush. Understandable mistake, I'm sure many would have thought that. (I actually don't mind Kim carry's comments, his comments are usually on target)
6:03 Uhm Jaekyung (the chubby one) thinks it's just a missclick. He then goes on to explain that a lot of terrans, incase of surprise zergling attacks, like to hotkey their workers so that they can react quickly to defend, and that this is a case where Casy's hotkeys were mixed up and was the result of a missclick. (which is pretty retarded considering he did a perfect split with the workers and followed up with a rush right aftewards)
6:30 Kim Carry finally suggests that maybe he was trying to fool july into thinking he fe'd, which we all know is what actually happened.
So yea, it took 50 seconds for the three to realize what Casy was really doing. I think most of TL figured it out after 10.
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
In Bisu vs Flash game 2 on ROTK, when Flash's SCV enters Bisu's base and sees the 3rd pylon, Kingdom explains that it would have been better for bisu if the SCV died after seeing just the nexus. "If all Flash saw was 2 pylons, and a silent nexus, he would have been forced to build an academy or an engineering bay, but because that scv lived long enough to see the 3rd pylon AND the nexus flashing again he can now delay those buildings and not worry about early harrassment".
A minute later, Bisu's probe is outside of flash's base while flash is flying his CC and rax to his nat.. Kingdom: "Ok, Bisu doesn't know Flash's build yet but all he has to do is see that barracks and he will know. If that barracks flys towards the protoss's base it's 2 fac, but if it lands like it's doing now, he knows it's a fe"
i am seriously impressed by the audacity of the industry at this point. they are aggressive to the degree of recklessness. it shows just how bad the general status quo of players rights has been for so long and how little countervailing forces there are. like, no child labor laws? no anti-trust stuff? what's this nonsense about players not allowed to have agents? the fuck?
you'd think that the industry has at least the sensibility to avoid controversy and smooth things over, but nooo. i suspect the fa rules on the books don't actually matter much. rather, much of the business is carried out out of sight. these guys had all the opportunity to plan out how the jd situation would be handled, but they evidently settled on a mess like this, infuriate fans, damage their brand, incite further action by whatever player rights groups there are. oh, but of course, they could just change the rules so that jd would eventually sign. nice damage control.
im curious as to how this whole situation is being covered both in the fan community and through official kespa organs.
On August 28 2009 06:43 noddyz wrote: Parents seem more a problem than kespa or free agency in general.
What kind of an age is 20 before you can decide your own contracts? Seems crazy.
Parents aren't the problem. The biggest problem is that Kespa has outlawed agents to help negotiate for players. Parents don't have the know-how or experience to deal with big corporations which have tons of resources/lawyers. But they have to exert some kind of influence or else the teams will just take advantage of the players.
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
They're doing what's in their power and what's probably in the long-run best interest of their son (because even if he loves Starcraft, playing at his current salary makes it hard for him to make long-term plans, while adequate compensation could make that easier). His parents are probably making the realistic assumption that pro Starcraft will not last forever, and Jaedong's career in progaming can't last forever, and that if he can't secure his future in the field financially, he may as well retire.
While Jaedong retiring doesn't immediately solve the problem, it does raise awareness in the community that there IS a problem (you can see on TL, seeing as Jaedong's insultingly low salary wasn't even a topic of discussion until these things started to happen).
And it is relevant that Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, and Effort aren't being exploited by their teams as much as Jaedong. The only one that's arguably close is Flash, and even he's paid almost 3 times as much as Jaedong is now.
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
Yea, I'm not trying to force the issue here, it's just I always feel extremely jealous when I hear things like this. Then I watched around 100 games always getting them translated and I saw nothing.
Well, strategies and insights tends to get boring when you hear them a few times, especially when you have a fangirls base who doesn't particularly care for it.
When you watch regular sports games, it's not like the color analyst just sits there and break down every play in detail. Usually the play-by-play guy just describes the action and having a banter. It's only on select occasions when they really look into things. I'm guessing that's the case with BW. They have great insights, but just doesn't choose to say them often.
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
Yea, I'm not trying to force the issue here, it's just I always feel extremely jealous when I hear things like this. Then I watched around 100 games always getting them translated and I saw nothing.
Well, strategies and insights tends to get boring when you hear them a few times, especially when you have a fangirls base who doesn't particularly care for it.
When you watch regular sports games, it's not like the color analyst just sits there and break down every play in detail. Usually the play-by-play guy just describes the action and having a banter. It's only on select occasions when they really look into things. I'm guessing that's the case with BW. They have great insights, but just doesn't choose to say them often.
no..... 90% of koreans agree MBC commentators > OGN commentators (before TheMarine)
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
Yea, I'm not trying to force the issue here, it's just I always feel extremely jealous when I hear things like this. Then I watched around 100 games always getting them translated and I saw nothing.
Well, strategies and insights tends to get boring when you hear them a few times, especially when you have a fangirls base who doesn't particularly care for it.
When you watch regular sports games, it's not like the color analyst just sits there and break down every play in detail. Usually the play-by-play guy just describes the action and having a banter. It's only on select occasions when they really look into things. I'm guessing that's the case with BW. They have great insights, but just doesn't choose to say them often.
no..... 90% of koreans agree MBC commentators > OGN commentators (before TheMarine)
lol word my korean friend that got me into sc is like rofl osl commentators just talk a lot of crap mbc commentators oWN
On August 28 2009 03:19 Live2Win wrote: Exactly. I've been really enjoying this year's WCG Korea because of Kingdom's commentary. The guy hasn't done much the last years of his progaming career (although his wrist injury may have contributed to that), but the amount of insight he gives on the game in all matchups are incredible. Same goes to other progamers-turned commentators, like Ra and TheMarine.
Can you give examples? I've always heard Koreans fawning over the commentators' depth. Whenever I watch with a Korean I ask what they're saying and it's never been anything in-depth. Usually they're just making funny jokes. I always expect to hear some great insight and it's around 0/100 now. I've never heard it.
Basically when I listen to the main 3 OGN casters for OSL, I usually face-palm a lot (except for kim-carry). Kingdom and TheMarine (who was my favorite OGN commentator) were extremely good because of their ability to analyze what the players are thinking. They pick out small details the players are doing and explain why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and what kind of play they are going for. I'll look up an example.
Yea, I'm not trying to force the issue here, it's just I always feel extremely jealous when I hear things like this. Then I watched around 100 games always getting them translated and I saw nothing.
Well, strategies and insights tends to get boring when you hear them a few times, especially when you have a fangirls base who doesn't particularly care for it.
When you watch regular sports games, it's not like the color analyst just sits there and break down every play in detail. Usually the play-by-play guy just describes the action and having a banter. It's only on select occasions when they really look into things. I'm guessing that's the case with BW. They have great insights, but just doesn't choose to say them often.
no..... 90% of koreans agree MBC commentators > OGN commentators (before TheMarine)
ya despite MBCgame sometimes over exaggerates, they have rA, PLAGUUUU Glasses, Yooi and that other terran commentator I forgot. MBCgame's commentators are very detailed while OGN's commentators just ramble on about the old age about how some Legendary players did something embarrassing and whatnot
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
While Jaedong retiring doesn't immediately solve the problem, it does raise awareness in the community that there IS a problem (you can see on TL, seeing as Jaedong's insultingly low salary wasn't even a topic of discussion until these things started to happen).
Very well, then. Since OZ is the problem, I'll do this. I've stripped the OZ tag from my signature until Jaedong gets paid what he's worth.
And if they force him out of StarCraft, then I'll switch to SKT1.
OK, maybe not that far. I'll switch to CJ.
It's a small thing, worth maybe a bumper-sticker in real-world terms. But it's something.
On August 28 2009 06:43 noddyz wrote: Parents seem more a problem than kespa or free agency in general.
What kind of an age is 20 before you can decide your own contracts? Seems crazy.
can you imagine if NBA players had to negotiate their own contracts without agents?
and in a tiny room with just a few days time limit?
and if they dont say yes, there's a governing body that rigs and colludes between teams to keep their salaries super low?
and after that their original team can pay them slave labor rates?
of course JD is going to say "yeah i just want to play." every kid would say that. jaedongs parents should be applauded for sticking up for their son. he deserves better and I'm happy his parents are protesting against KeSPA fuck JD and all other players over with this ridiculous FA system.
Kid? JD is 19 not 5. He's already demonstrated that he doesn't 'just want to play', he wants to play for Oz and Oz alone. He was going to get 140 million won, base, for playing where he wanted: a wage far away from 'slave labour' and more in dream land for most 19 year olds.
He was going to do what he loved for a good amount of money and his parents stopped him because they felt he deserved more. Maybe he did, especially in comparison to some other pro's, but that's not the point. The point is they should have been able to advice JD, like any good parent would, but not directly step in and stop an adult doing what they want to do with there life. I'll remind you again: he's 19.
I don't like free agency. I think it's a disgrace to to slap so many rediculous, harmful, regulations on something and call it 'free'. But in the case of Jaedong, it should never even have been an issue. He should have just been able to sign with his old team, like he wanted.
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
While Jaedong retiring doesn't immediately solve the problem, it does raise awareness in the community that there IS a problem (you can see on TL, seeing as Jaedong's insultingly low salary wasn't even a topic of discussion until these things started to happen).
Very well, then. Since OZ is the problem, I'll do this. I've stripped the OZ tag from my signature until Jaedong gets paid what he's worth.
And if they force him out of StarCraft, then I'll switch to SKT1.
OK, maybe not that far. I'll switch to CJ.
It's a small thing, worth maybe a bumper-sticker in real-world terms. But it's something.
That'll show the bastards! They'll have to offer Jaedong a decent contract now.
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
While Jaedong retiring doesn't immediately solve the problem, it does raise awareness in the community that there IS a problem (you can see on TL, seeing as Jaedong's insultingly low salary wasn't even a topic of discussion until these things started to happen).
I wasn't really aware of it.. i was assuming he was on the same pay scale as bisu/flash ect. i think most people did not know as well.
On August 28 2009 06:43 noddyz wrote: Parents seem more a problem than kespa or free agency in general.
What kind of an age is 20 before you can decide your own contracts? Seems crazy.
can you imagine if NBA players had to negotiate their own contracts without agents?
and in a tiny room with just a few days time limit?
and if they dont say yes, there's a governing body that rigs and colludes between teams to keep their salaries super low?
and after that their original team can pay them slave labor rates?
of course JD is going to say "yeah i just want to play." every kid would say that. jaedongs parents should be applauded for sticking up for their son. he deserves better and I'm happy his parents are protesting against KeSPA fuck JD and all other players over with this ridiculous FA system.
Kid? JD is 19 not 5. He's already demonstrated that he doesn't 'just want to play', he wants to play for Oz and Oz alone. He was going to get 140 million won, base, for playing where he wanted: a wage far away from 'slave labour' and more in dream land for most 19 year olds.
He was going to do what he loved for a good amount of money and his parents stopped him because they felt he deserved more. Maybe he did, especially in comparison to some other pro's, but that's not the point. The point is they should have been able to advice JD, like any good parent would, but not directly step in and stop an adult doing what they want to do with there life. I'll remind you again: he's 19.
I don't like free agency. I think it's a disgrace to to slap so many rediculous, harmful, regulations on something and call it 'free'. But in the case of Jaedong, it should never even have been an issue. He should have just been able to sign with his old team, like he wanted.
I'd just like to say that the 19 year olds in different cultures, times, locations, and professions are all so different from one another it can be impossible to imagine or understand sometimes.
From my personal experience, alot of asian parents don't consider their kids as adults capable of making important decisions until mid twenties, on average.
On August 28 2009 06:43 noddyz wrote: Parents seem more a problem than kespa or free agency in general.
What kind of an age is 20 before you can decide your own contracts? Seems crazy.
can you imagine if NBA players had to negotiate their own contracts without agents?
and in a tiny room with just a few days time limit?
and if they dont say yes, there's a governing body that rigs and colludes between teams to keep their salaries super low?
and after that their original team can pay them slave labor rates?
of course JD is going to say "yeah i just want to play." every kid would say that. jaedongs parents should be applauded for sticking up for their son. he deserves better and I'm happy his parents are protesting against KeSPA fuck JD and all other players over with this ridiculous FA system.
Kid? JD is 19 not 5. He's already demonstrated that he doesn't 'just want to play', he wants to play for Oz and Oz alone. He was going to get 140 million won, base, for playing where he wanted: a wage far away from 'slave labour' and more in dream land for most 19 year olds.
He was going to do what he loved for a good amount of money and his parents stopped him because they felt he deserved more. Maybe he did, especially in comparison to some other pro's, but that's not the point. The point is they should have been able to advice JD, like any good parent would, but not directly step in and stop an adult doing what they want to do with there life. I'll remind you again: he's 19.
I don't like free agency. I think it's a disgrace to to slap so many rediculous, harmful, regulations on something and call it 'free'. But in the case of Jaedong, it should never even have been an issue. He should have just been able to sign with his old team, like he wanted.
I'd just like to say that the 19 year olds in different cultures, times, locations, and professions are all so different from one another it can be impossible to imagine or understand sometimes.
From my personal experience, alot of asian parents don't consider their kids as adults capable of making important decisions until mid twenties, on average.
Agree with you on that one and can confirm it. My parents wouldn't even trust me with adult decisions even when I was 25. They wanted to know what job options I have and what I was trying to take even though they didn't know the first thing about the field I was working in.
Weird so many think a 19 year old can handle contract negotiations. Are you all business geniuses or something? Because throughout my college years, I don't remember seeing many, if any, 19 year old savvy enough to negotiate seriously with grown professional businessmen.
I believe my collegues and my own priorities at that age was going after girls, getting drunk, and cramming for the finals in the last month of the semester. If my 19 old self wanted to negotiate my own salary, I'd say HELL NO.
On August 29 2009 02:55 fanatacist wrote: Intentionally of course, but I don't think it's even necessary; he almost got fucked hardest of all.
Arguably, he was already being fucked over hardest of all. At 70M KRW a year, it's pretty obvious that he's one of the most, if not the most underpaid currently active player.
On August 29 2009 02:59 fanatacist wrote: It would be more fucked if he did all that for no contract renewal, imo.
True.
I think the thing that really shocks me about JD's situation is that he's been letting Hwaseung shove him around as far as salary goes for TWO YEARS. At 70M a year or less, he was underpaid by the time he won his first OSL, and for the most part, people have just let that fly?
JD ought to retire. if he goes out now he can be remembered as the best progamer of all time. he is young. go to school, floss some white broads and get on with your life.
On August 29 2009 02:59 fanatacist wrote: It would be more fucked if he did all that for no contract renewal, imo.
True.
I think the thing that really shocks me about JD's situation is that he's been letting Hwaseung shove him around as far as salary goes for TWO YEARS. At 70M a year or less, he was underpaid by the time he won his first OSL, and for the most part, people have just let that fly?
and kespa with their fa rules, are allowing OZ to keep him under paid.
On August 29 2009 03:08 StorrZerg wrote: and kespa with their fa rules, are allowing OZ to keep him under paid.
His salary was a joke before FA ever became a relevant factor. It's just that FA caused a huge hubbub because Jaedong's parents (rightfully) tried to do something about it.
It's not the first time an athlete/celebrity had to sign a bullshit contract to get by and then had that sacrifice forcibly inserted in all holes simultaneously. It's the way "the business" works, talentless people profiting off of the talented. Even though this is an outrage, there is not much we or anyone can do.
I see a lot of similar posts. Please, set a precedent for TL.net and foreign fans by voting here and not ignoring what's happening to progamers when they need us the most and we are so well informed. In the end it's not about the progamers themselves, it's about the eSports institution, player rights, and having principles.
On August 29 2009 03:19 fanatacist wrote: It's not the first time an athlete/celebrity had to sign a bullshit contract to get by and then had that sacrifice forcibly inserted in all holes simultaneously. It's the way "the business" works, talentless people profiting off of the talented. Even though this is an outrage, there is not much we or anyone can do.
Jaedong can retire. And while I'll reserve judgement until after we see something about the offer JD gets, I'm inclined to believe that's a better option at this point.
On August 29 2009 03:20 Xxio wrote: I see a lot of similar posts. Please, set a precedent for TL.net and foreign fans by voting here and not ignoring what's happening to progamers when they need us the most and we are so well informed. In the end it's not about the progamers themselves, it's about the eSports institution, player rights, and having principles.
If you think Kespa will know about that poll, or even flinch when they find out about it, you're dreaming. That's just the unfortunate fact
TheYango: I don't think it's his best option. Although going to college in America would be great, it costs money, it requires him to fly (probably back and forth multiple times for family), to master English, to go back to school after training SC for years... It's rough. Ideal situation, like you said, would be known after the new contract proposal, but either way I think it's better for him to make more money, maybe learn English on the side, then bail before military service.
It's better to try and fail than to never have tried at all. Hopefully we could add our support to the other english fansites and then the many people protesting this in Korea. I would rather do that than be the person that thought of how awful it is yet did nothing, not even enough to voice their opinion, and by doing so tell KeSPA and other institutions that the fans are ok with this..
HEY GUYS, I HATE STARCRAFT, ITS FUCKING STUPID, I DON'T KNOW WHY I PRACTIE 12 HORUS A DAY AND WIN OSL'S AND GOLDEN MOUSES, AND HAVE FANS LOVE ME. I WANT TO QUIT BECAUSE MY COACH AND TEAM ARE DOUCHES AND MY PARENTS HATE ME. NOT SARCASM!1!11!!!
seriously guys, wtf? jaedong should retire when he wants to, not when hes forced to
HEY GUYS, I HATE STARCRAFT, ITS FUCKING STUPID, I DON'T KNOW WHY I PRACTIE 12 HORUS A DAY AND WIN OSL'S AND GOLDEN MOUSES, AND HAVE FANS LOVE ME. I WANT TO QUIT BECAUSE MY COACH AND TEAM ARE DOUCHES AND MY PARENTS HATE ME. NOT SARCASM!1!11!!!
seriously guys, wtf? jaedong should retire when he wants to, not when hes forced to
Because clearly his job is worth less because he enjoys it?
Jaedong is getting exploited for an insultingly low wage. Just because he's too naive to see it, doesn't accept it out of trust/love for his team, or doesn't care because he loves his job doesn't make it right.
On August 29 2009 03:42 Xxio wrote: It's better to try and fail than to never have tried at all. Hopefully we could add our support to the other english fansites and then the many people protesting this in Korea. I would rather do that than be the person that thought of how awful it is yet did nothing, not even enough to voice their opinion, and by doing so tell KeSPA and other institutions that the fans are ok with this..
The fact of the matter is that we are foreigners who do not go to the games, we do not buy merchandise at the games, and we are basically a waste of potential profit due to GOM and YouTube in Kespa's eyes. They have absolutely no inclination to heed our opinions.
Korean netizens are just as fired up about Kespa as we are and have been for a while. This hasn't changed a single thing. This poll, on TeamLiquid, is no different. I voiced my opinion, but I also know that it's fruitless to invest time effort and emotion in this because nothing any of us can do will have any impact on the outcome. Maybe it's the American mentality that fuels people (not necessarily you), the mentality of world police - "There is something wrong there, it is our moral obligation to fix it!" Sometimes people need to abandon that mentality in light of the realization that their words are wasted.
I don't think signing a petition and standing up for progamers over the internet requires much time, effort, or emotion...but hey, that's just me I don't feel like I have an obligation to do anything, but between "oh there's nothing I can do anyways, it's pointless to do anything" and "this disagrees with my principals, I would like to see if people agree with me and something can be done about it" I would go with the second
You don't need to make a new thread to see if people agree with your principles*, and there should be no need for social validation of these principles anyway. It's common sense.
Jaedong is good, getting paid too little is bad, not compromising with him is bad, nothing can be done about it from our positiion. End of story.
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
While Jaedong retiring doesn't immediately solve the problem, it does raise awareness in the community that there IS a problem (you can see on TL, seeing as Jaedong's insultingly low salary wasn't even a topic of discussion until these things started to happen).
Very well, then. Since OZ is the problem, I'll do this. I've stripped the OZ tag from my signature until Jaedong gets paid what he's worth.
And if they force him out of StarCraft, then I'll switch to SKT1.
OK, maybe not that far. I'll switch to CJ.
It's a small thing, worth maybe a bumper-sticker in real-world terms. But it's something.
That'll show the bastards! They'll have to offer Jaedong a decent contract now.
I'm not saying it's a big thing. Or even a small thing. More than likely, they'll never hear of it, and it won't affect anything.
But it's there. What are you doing about it?
He was going to do what he loved for a good amount of money and his parents stopped him because they felt he deserved more. Maybe he did, especially in comparison to some other pro's, but that's not the point.
Maybe? Maybe? Maybe Lee Jae Dong, arguably the greatest StarCraft player to pick up a mouse, deserves money in line with what Bisu and Flash get?
The advantage that this laughable FA system gives to the teams over the players is frankly unacceptable, and its good that SOMEONE is actually doing something against it.
So, what are they doing against it? Getting Jaedong to retire isn't going to bring FA down, unless Bisu, Flash, Fantasy, Effort and others all quit in solidarity. All it will do is end Jaedong's career.
While Jaedong retiring doesn't immediately solve the problem, it does raise awareness in the community that there IS a problem (you can see on TL, seeing as Jaedong's insultingly low salary wasn't even a topic of discussion until these things started to happen).
Very well, then. Since OZ is the problem, I'll do this. I've stripped the OZ tag from my signature until Jaedong gets paid what he's worth.
And if they force him out of StarCraft, then I'll switch to SKT1.
OK, maybe not that far. I'll switch to CJ.
It's a small thing, worth maybe a bumper-sticker in real-world terms. But it's something.
That'll show the bastards! They'll have to offer Jaedong a decent contract now.
I'm not saying it's a big thing. Or even a small thing. More than likely, they'll never hear of it, and it won't affect anything.
But it's there. What are you doing about it?
I'm doing nothing, because although I feel bad about the way Jaedong is getting screwed, there is nothing I can do about it. Let's be honest, you're not doing anything about it either. I doubt that anyone aside from you cares even a little bit what your team icon is.
I understand why you feel the need to make a gesture, though. Sorry for making fun.
On August 29 2009 04:23 fanatacist wrote: The fact of the matter is that we are foreigners who do not go to the games, we do not buy merchandise at the games, and we are basically a waste of potential profit due to GOM and YouTube in Kespa's eyes. They have absolutely no inclination to heed our opinions.
It's sad because, while minor, we do have a by proxy intake of merchandise and do, to a small extent (but probably a fair percentage per capita, given the situation), give them revenue because of services we have to go out of our way to watch. It's not much, but it's not like we're a completely profitless cyst that mooches off them for free (well we are for the most part but there's a brave few who contribute!).
On August 29 2009 13:23 RowdierBob wrote: So how much is JD currently getting paid and how much is OZ offering him to stay on?
Jaedong's prior salary was 70M Won (roughly equivalent to 58,000 USD) per year. The original offer that Jaedong's parents turned down was 140M Won, but we won't know the final results of negotiations until the 31st, as far as I know.
On August 29 2009 13:37 RowdierBob wrote: Thanks mate...
Where does rate in comparison to guys like Nada, Bisu and Flash?
Bisu makes 250M Won, Flash around 200M. Can't remember where Nada's is now, though I think I remember him having made a 750M over 3 years deal in 2007.
On August 29 2009 13:37 RowdierBob wrote: Thanks mate...
Where does rate in comparison to guys like Nada, Bisu and Flash?
Bisu makes 250M Won, Flash around 200M. Can't remember where Nada's is now, though I think I remember him having made a 750M over 3 years deal in 2007.
are you serious? bisu makes 3.5 times more than JD? that is fucking ridiculous, oz should be bitch slapped 9 times in the face for being such cheap asses
On August 29 2009 16:42 blue_arrow wrote: are you serious? bisu makes 3.5 times more than JD? that is fucking ridiculous, oz should be bitch slapped 9 times in the face for being such cheap asses
Bisu makes 4 times more than JD. Because current JD’s salary is 60M Won.
On August 20 2009 17:27 Waxangel wrote: OZ is said to have offered Jaedong 140,000,000 won in base salary, with bonuses up to 60,000,000 won. Jaedong's mother is said to have requested a base salary in the region of of 180,000,000 won and/or triple his previous salary.
Previous to negotiations salary = current salary. Triple of current salary is 180M --> current salary is 60M.
On August 29 2009 13:37 RowdierBob wrote: Thanks mate...
Where does rate in comparison to guys like Nada, Bisu and Flash?
Bisu makes 250M Won, Flash around 200M. Can't remember where Nada's is now, though I think I remember him having made a 750M over 3 years deal in 2007.
are you serious? bisu makes 3.5 times more than JD? that is fucking ridiculous, oz should be bitch slapped 9 times in the face for being such cheap asses
Uhm, Jaedong made 60-70M (have seen both numbers, so I dunno), because it was an old 2 year long (or 3, I think it's 2 though) contract that was signed back when he was a good PL player, but nothing more (and nothing close to what he is now), so it was a reasonable contract.
On August 29 2009 13:37 RowdierBob wrote: Thanks mate...
Where does rate in comparison to guys like Nada, Bisu and Flash?
Bisu makes 250M Won, Flash around 200M. Can't remember where Nada's is now, though I think I remember him having made a 750M over 3 years deal in 2007.
are you serious? bisu makes 3.5 times more than JD? that is fucking ridiculous, oz should be bitch slapped 9 times in the face for being such cheap asses
Uhm, Jaedong made 60-70M (have seen both numbers, so I dunno), because it was an old 2 year long (or 3, I think it's 2 though) contract that was signed back when he was a good PL player, but nothing more (and nothing close to what he is now), so it was a reasonable contract.
ahh ok, that makes way more sense. i was wondering why there weren't massive complaints everywhere if jd made so much less than bisu... thanks for the info
We've got two more days before the FINAL decision right?
Obviously the team of OZ and the coach really need Jaedong, but assuming the corporation knows about this, do they care enough to put a new and expensive contract out a few seasons before SC2?
On August 29 2009 17:13 blue_arrow wrote: ahh ok, that makes way more sense. i was wondering why there weren't massive complaints everywhere if jd made so much less than bisu... thanks for the info
Yes, this 60M contract was m.b. 2 years old. But the value of this contract no one knew — before the Jaedong’s mom did not report it in her interview.
There's no real information on the terms of his contract or anything regarding his salary/conditions.
Only that in the end they came to an agreement and that Jaedong will continue as a Hwasung player.
whoa, that first line gave me a little shock
re-sign vs resign. i thought he resigned (quit). it's a good think he's not. im glad hes with oz, too
same here, I almost went wtf?? Give me a heart attack there for a sec... I mean if JD resigned... then the title for the best zerg player is up for grabs but phew... we need JD to bring the balance among all proteams and all....
Add me to the list of people who misread the title. As the shock subsides, it's replaced with something more bittersweet. Well... now JD is with Oz again, but, shit. Imagine if he had moved on and gotten on KT. Now, the chance of JD dominating the indivudal leagues is much less likely.
On August 31 2009 09:50 Avidkeystamper wrote: Yeah, I'm still ambivalent until I learn about his contract. Hoping at least 220 mil after bonuses (was 190 before). Pretty relieved though.
Same here.
We still don't know if he actually got a good deal or caved to corporate pressure, so I'm holding off on whether to call this a good thing or a bad thing.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1251195145_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1251089268_1.jpg)
Tx for the translation. 
.
![[image loading]](http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/212407/magic-coach.jpg)
