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Why TPW did so well in MotM, and what it means for the TL map community
This month, members of the mapping team TPW took 4 out of 5 finalist places. And I've heard (privately) a that a few people don't think its quite fair that TPW gets to collaborate and submit their maps like that. Here's why you're wrong, and it is fair.
TPW is nothing more than roughly 60-70% of the top mappers on TL deciding to label their maps
"TPW" and talk over their maps to find faults.
Let me address the second part first: testing and reworking maps is actively encouraged by MotM. If you look back through MotM records you'll see that even in the first one, we made provisions for multiple mappers working on the same map. We want your map's final, perfect form, and we don't really care how it got there (though there was some confusion early on in MotM history). Because, ultimately, thats the goal of MotM - to find the best maps that we can, and give them play broadcast to the world.
Now, to address the first part. TPW is just a bunch of TL mappers deciding to organize. Basically, they're the equivalent of an SC2 Mapping Union. Organizing gives them more leverage and allows them to get better and more specific feedback from fellow members. That second part is key - getting feedback is crucial to good map production. And personally, I can't say that TL is the best place to get feedback. All too often someone will open a map thread, glance at it for 10 seconds, and say "X is imba". Which would be fine if there was some serious discussion about it, but there rarely is. Such conversations are more likely to happen over skype or in IRC - where your thoughts aren't put on display to the public.
I believe there are three reasons mappers are moving away from TL forums as their primary method of communication.
#1) is the MotM staff room on skype. If you have ever helped run an MotM event, you're in the staff room. This has led to a lot of awesome feedback, and also connected a lot of mappers with others outside of TL. This has led to an upward spiral of good feedback and collaboration, producing some awesome results.
#2) is the lack of support from the greater TL community. I wish it were otherwise, but TL simply does not support its mapping subform. Most of the time, comments from non-regulars in the SC2 Custom Maps subforum are, as previously mentioned "imba" shouts. But even when we move beyond our comfort zone, and post in the Great Beyond known as SC2 General, we're ignored by the vast majority. As an example, the Nerd Alert song thread recieved 25,000 thread views in less than 24 hours. It took the Petition for New (Good) Maps thread 10 days to reach that same number. Now, I love Nerd Alert, but honestly, which thread is more important?
Or perhaps we should look at the homepage, where "Moms Playing StarCraft?" is spotlighted - nice to know, but not really interesting or important. And I love team liquid, but the first 10 pages of our Petition thread were 10% negativity, the vast majority of that being uniformed whining - though I suppose thats to be expected for the internet. Still, why ask for feedback when you know some of what you're going to get is shit, particularly when you could avoid it easily? Which brings me to point #3.
#3) is the desire for more advanced and focused feedback. Lets face it, when you give feedback on a map on TL, you're not always 100% focused. You miss things. You don't always look for a reply. And going out and acquiring feedback is a difficult process of navigating PMs, and hoping that you get quality feedback. Setting up test games is a nightmare of a process through a forum. With Skype and IRC available, its no small wonder that mappers are turning away from a forum as their primary means of communication. It just makes sense.
Now, I wish that this wasn't the case. I love the TL community, and I've poured my heart and soul into this website and specifically the SC2Maps subforum for nearly a year. But I think its inevitable that the more serious mappers will move beyond this forum as their primary means of communication. Its the logical move.
And that pretty much wraps that up. I'm shitty at conclusions, so here goes: TPW is nothing more than an inevitability caused by TeamLiquid.net mappers getting serious. Its a good thing, but I really wish it wasn't, because it means our community will probably become less involved. Or at least that's my take.
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Germany613 Posts
Word. Great that you move discussion into the area that really should be discussed - how to make TL forums better for melee map making.
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 You do a lot for the community, really good job =P
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nice writeup.....i have to agree
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my thoughts about tl are not quite that negative :D i think tl is great, and there is nothing else that comes even close to it when it comes to promoting new maps. if you post a good map, it'll have 1000+ views within a few days easily.
what i am more disappointed in is blizzards support for custom maps. the chances of your map to become popular on bnet, even if it was the most perfect and by far best map in the entire world, is almost zero. and tournaments also do to not want to use maps people don't know, no matter how good they are - which i personally don't understand at all. tournaments live off it's viewers, not it's players. the sponsors are interested in the viewers, not the players. and i think the viewers enjoy a fresh map more than watching the 1000th match on metalopolis. only gomtv seems to understand that.
enough off topic :D
it's because of the bad custom map support ingame, that we have to rely on the communty to make good maps popular. and i think as a team we have a higher chance of being taken seriously than each map on it's own. so in a way TPW is simply a group of map makers who take their hobby seriously attempting to be taken more serious
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I avoid that subforum like the plague only because I don't feel qualified to comment on maps and balance. However, I follow things like the MOTM tournaments because I really wish to see SC2 played on some new maps. Not because of balance, but simply because we've been playing on some of these maps for a year now. I think having the same maps for such a long time is great for helping to balance the game, especially in its infancy, but I think at this point it's refined enough that it's time to get another set of maps.
Edit:
The point of my post is to just basically say "I don't visit that subforum much because I don't feel like I can contribute. But I appreciate what you guys are doing because I think it's important for the evolution of this game."
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TWP, in my own words, is not just a bunch of mappers who want to start up something cool and show off. We all have one goal in mind: to create ever-changing and ever-adapting maps that go with the game flow and what it will offer in the months and years to come. We constantly strive to keep things fresh, new, and updated when possible. We all have this one goal in mind, and we strive to do so with one mind and one foundation. This is not a team where we just join together and show off our maps. We're saying "this is our mindset, and we want to expand on it."
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now that TPW is officially formed, I wanted to share some thought on this, why SC2 needs MotM, map making teams and individuals doing their best to get custom melee maps played.
Here is what I wrote in the The Planetary Workshop announcement thread
I thought it was of interest, although I am ten days behind this blog.
Crossposting for #2: more attention for the subforums and custom maps.
On July 21 2011 18:43 Samro225am wrote:
It is not like that a few people organized in teams can change things alone.
I hope for tournament organizers to look more for custom maps, whoever made them, as long as players get a chance to play new and maybe also more interesting maps.
Blizzard looking at GSL and taking Taldarim shows that it is a slow process, but in the long run Blizzard should be interested in an active mapping community and smaller tournaments, too.
Against this background it makes sense to form mapping teams and collaborate with tournament makers, players, casters.
Regarding the still small, but likely growing number of such teams, one might ask what is the position of less experienced map makers and how the subforums here is going to be used. I already noted a decline of activity of the experienced users and mappers over the last weeks. Which is a pitty really.
For the process of getting custom maps be accepted by Blizzard, you need continuity and energy over a long period. That is why you need a constant interest in map making of people of all different levels of experience, players contributing by giving feedback, KotH like tournaments and last but not least MotM.
Probably more experienced map makers should also try to give something back to the community and help newbie map makers.
You can have many professional players, dedicated casters and map makers, but in the end it depends on the community of players who share a common interest: SC2 and intersting matches on fresh maps!
This possibly got a bit long and off topic, but I feel it might be important to use the little TPW buzz we already have to gain more attention of people: We need more love for the custom maps subforum, MotM, map making teams and all independant mappers!
Thanks for your interest in TPW and custom maps in general! gl hf!
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Oh damn, didn't see this blog. I agree with the pessimistic tone of it, the vast majority of the community isn't really interested in helping the map making community and get better maps played, which is funny cause the vast community loooves to complain whenever Blizzard showcases their new maps..
Hopefully ESL and MLG are setting examples when it comes to using non-blizz and non-GSL maps but it's too little.
I would add that it's again a Korean bias as well, I'm pretty sure that most of the community thinks GSL maps = totally balanced cause they are from Korea and everything, yet our maps are very suspicious.
It would be great if Teamliquid used their power to help the mapmaking community a little bit, since obviously GSL map makers have GSL, Blizzard map makers have bnet ladder (so imba!) and now even iCCup has a prestigious weekly tournament for themselves.
Also foreign (EU) players are either totally uninterested in testing maps or they don't get contacted at all. Players should have so much more interest in tournaments using good maps...
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I actually just opened up a Melee Map Development Forum on SC2Mapster. It hit me that Mapster is the #1 place for the Custom Mapping community, but Melee mappers were all on here (or, were at one point). I feel like splitting the Mapping community into two is bad, especially since we are very small to begin with. That in mind, I'm hoping to draw the Melee mappers out from the rocks that you're all hidden under and give you guys somewhere to congregate with the mapping community at large. I feel like Custom Mappers and Melee Mappers could definitely learn a lot from each other.
Here's to hoping we can create one large Mapping community from the two current split ones...
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On July 10 2011 23:45 iGrok wrote:
#2) is the lack of support from the greater TL community.
As a 'bunch of TL members', they themselves show little support for the rest of the TL community - you hardly see input from their members on maps from other members of this community.
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I'd love to participate. I'm a professional designer, so I'm great with aesthetics and a holistic perspective. Love what you guys are doing.
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EPT
