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Disclosure: This will not be in favor of SC2 users as I will not rant about how SC2 has killed BW. Sorry this is about BW in general and how it affects me.
My first address, pretty personal for me. I'd like to start off with my team, it's awesomeness, and why it should stop being denied as awesome.
Not many people in the BW community like me. I am too honest, this is typically a problem for most people. I don't understand it since the internet is exactly the place you should be. Aside from that, because I represent my team, the majority that follows the masses do not like my team. Another point that is misunderstood by me. Even more confusing, people saying LRM) is not the #1 team outside Korea. The more I hear about how great other teams are and how my team lost with weak lineups once or twice in the past year or so, the more it angers me. Which brings me to my point. Commonly people will admit the sky is perceived as white and blue. LRM) has won every single league in a dominant fashion since it was formed under new leadership.
Proofs:
+ Show Spoiler +
So how is the sky blue and white and LRM) physically #1 (iG. is ranked #2 in the gosugamers database and the new LRM) is a combination of both of those teams), but other clans are better than LRM)? Clearly the problem with the communities perception does not lie with the exceedingly dominant players and their ability to perform, but with me. My view? Wake up. We are a small team with a lot of loyalty and family spirit, unlike the other 50-100+ player teams that are being announced as top teams. /end rant about LRM)
Onto iCCup:
My personal drama aside with some of the staff there that has been taken care of, iCCup's vision is very limited and small business-esque. That is my view. People complain about the 1,000 person average population and cite they don't understand. I'll clarify my view. iCCup has heads that I respect for what they do, but that are very nearsighted. The population constantly sinks, and other servers grow. BW is not dying anymore than the initial hit it already took when SC2 was released. Not even remotely. But, iCCup constantly drips users into other populations. Brainclan for example, which is not nearly as large as the 50k average on Fish server. Many friends of mine (foreigners) whom are much better than the top iCCup players at the moment have resorted to going around saying "me speak English" "no Korean" on Brainclan, because of the lack of foresight and interest iCCup holds. The heads of iCCup are not only nearsighted, but their egos are out of control. Not in the sense that they are going to go around claiming their dominance, but that they are too proud to invest in themselves. They fix routine problems that come up that they should have a staff to fix, they lack micro admins who have a range of skill sets. For example, a lack of Russian, Korean, Spanish speaking admins, as well as other languages. Another thing, the insane favor and bias showed towards certain people, including shunning non-English speakers.
The point I'm at now, is when any BW player would ask me "and how would you go about fixing any of these problems?". Clearly unpaid admins lack motivation, being unpaid, being bitched out all the time, etc. Not a problem. Without putting too much information out there, I've acquired several thousands of dollars in sponsorships for BW (something many thought unachievable because they have no vision), for things soon to come. Including the tournament I just organized, ISL, a test run for much larger things. With money comes motivation. Back in the day there was a small prize pool for iCCupCL, the second it was revoked, 3 of the top teams dropped out of iCCupCL. Just a small example, but all things are repetitive in life. iCCup is a well established server with an array of games, goals, and abilities. That is their up side. Down sides: looking desperate. iCCup openly advertises that they want people to pay to advertise on their website (very large prices). Surely I don't know anything about the details of it, but it looks god awful. Simple 4-6 page letters to possible sponsors, offering them perks from those arrays of abilities, and they could easily land large amounts of sponsorship. At this point, someone might ask how money alone is going to increase a population of a server. Maybe that person might even think I'm short sighted and lack an idea of reality. With a small $10,000 budget (easily accomplished by a server as large as iCCup in comparison to the several thousands I've acquired with just hits, schemes of other tournaments, and a lot of ass kissing), iCCup could have a complete turnaround. The only thing holding them back is the ego's at the head, the lack of bandwith, and a lack of foresight. A simply projected well budgeted $10,000 would have things like a seasonal $500 to admins. If you paid the Super Admins of each game ($1500 a season) as well as the Head Admins, developers, and maintenance there would be a lot of jealousy by the underlings at the start. This would, just like in real life, turn quickly into a motivation for underlings to perform more professionally, better, faster, and more completely than their counterparts to compete for the money. Follow that up with prizes for all of their leagues, constant small cash tournaments, and whatever they could come up with that would generate attention. The affects would not be immediate, but $10,000 could easily last 3 seasons (well over a year). Three seasons is ample time for growth that would 100% come. Primarily Koreans and the remaining foreign Battle.Net players. The B.Net players because it's new, it's organized, and it offers incentive. Koreans mainly for the last reason, incentive. No offense, but many Koreans just want to play BW all day and need an excuse to, this is where small cash tournaments come into effect. I don't think I need to explain the chain affect that bringing dominant players would bring. Yet, I'll see mention a small part of the process... dominant players come, players who dominate them come, fans of them come, players who want to practice with them come, and generally just that the mass is followers. I kept this short and simple and without a lot of detail of what would need to happen for the same reason iCCup is slowly dying; it will never happen.
- LRM)Game
 
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Read through the whole thing. I'd love to see more Brood War activity; in some ways the foreign scene is more interesting than the Korean one.
I don't know anything about the internal workings of ICCup, but prize pools sound like an awesome idea. People do need an excuse to play games all day.
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I've actually began playing some games on iccup, and it's just like older times actually. There are less games, but it was never a problem finding one given some patience
I've also gotten some people in my lab to play; my friend is learning rather quickly and is between D and D+ currently, up from D-/D last season
I hope iccup never dies like you said; good luck with your endeavours
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Regarding your attitude, its not because your "too honest", but more or less your demeanor. You are very didactic, rude, and domineering. Insulting people when ever possible is a poor way to show a positive image of oneself.
Your ICCUP plan seems to be to inject capitalism into ICCUP. It has promise, just needs good guidance.
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If I was paid to be an iCCup Admin, not only would Clan League be AMAZING + Show Spoiler +(I forgot what Gecko told me but apparently I made it a Top 10 success or something)
Nice rant btw, Brown Lips.
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We have different views. Not to get into too long of a rant, but I grew up in the ghetto, I'm a very large, overbearing person in real life, and that's who I am. So while those are adjectives to describe my personality, I'm doing nothing but being honest.
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To be perfectly honest, I agree with a lot of what Game says. With the right kinds of leadership and want-to, not only can you make Iccup a thriving place for high lvl BW games like it used to before, but also have everyone starting from the admins all the way down to the players happy. Just takes some real plan, and people with the initiative to make things happen. Fundraising is a big one, as it'll allow somewhat of a salary for the admins, while giving out small price pools to the players. Like Game said, Koreans will find any excuse to play the game. All you would have to do is offer small pricepools, and I'm sure they will come like a flock.
Anyways, I'm glad that someone has a vision and plan, and Game, great job on the AoV tournament so far. Everything considered, it's been running very smoothly, and the cast by Sayle (also you, and Joe Kim) has been excellent, keep it up <3.
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Despite my (and imo legitimate) complaints about some aspects of how joekim and game conducted themselves, the fact is, THEY are the ones with enough motivation and courage to do something about the foreign BW scene, while the rest of us sit around and moan about it
for that alone, they deserve much praise
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On March 14 2011 13:45 phosphorylation wrote:
Despite my (and imo legitimate) complaints about some aspects of how joekim and game conducted themselves, the fact is, THEY are the ones with enough motivation and courage to do something about the foreign BW scene, while the rest of us sit around and moan about it
for that alone, they deserve much praise
100% Agree.
Makes me realize I need to stop sitting back reminiscing and start finding ways to help.
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surely the best way to help is to be more active , you can't reinvent the wheel
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
On March 14 2011 13:45 phosphorylation wrote:
Despite my (and imo legitimate) complaints about some aspects of how joekim and game conducted themselves, the fact is, THEY are the ones with enough motivation and courage to do something about the foreign BW scene, while the rest of us sit around and moan about it
for that alone, they deserve much praise
yep pretty much why I stop bitching about game's attitude.
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Croatia9456 Posts
Even though I'm still not a fan of your "honest" personality, I must admit this was a pretty insightful read.
I'm really excited to see where the BW community will be in 1 year.
I also particularly agree with this thing you said:
BW is not dying anymore than the initial hit it already took when SC2 was released.
This seems to be a most common misconception, because if anything, I think the BW community can only go up from here. I know a lot of my friends quit BW when SC2 was released, but soon after they've returned to BW as if nothing has happened. Also, BW community can only profit from new people playing SC2 who become interested in BW after hearing nothing but the best about it -.-
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
My responses in bold:
On March 14 2011 12:40 Game wrote:
The heads of iCCup are not only nearsighted, but their egos are out of control. Not in the sense that they are going to go around claiming their dominance, but that they are too proud to invest in themselves.
Going to be brutally honest here. As far as I know, Yello-ant (the head developer of ICCup) is far more interested in DotA than BW. So while I'm not so sure it's an 'ego' thing, I do agree that there's a huge problem at the top.
They fix routine problems that come up that they should have a staff to fix, they lack micro admins who have a range of skill sets. For example, a lack of Russian, Korean, Spanish speaking admins, as well as other languages.
This has been discussed quite a lot recently in the admin forums. We're already improving on this with Dayfly and yeszero providing Korean support and gu-val providing Russian support. Unfortunately, there's no easy fix since being an admin is still a volunteer position so if no Spanish-speakers volunteer, there's not much we can do.
Another thing, the insane favor and bias showed towards certain people, including shunning non-English speakers.
I seem to be seeing this sentiment quite a bit lately and I'm not sure where it's coming from?
The point I'm at now, is when any BW player would ask me "and how would you go about fixing any of these problems?". Clearly unpaid admins lack motivation, being unpaid, being bitched out all the time, etc. Not a problem. Without putting too much information out there, I've acquired several thousands of dollars in sponsorships for BW (something many thought unachievable because they have no vision), for things soon to come. Including the tournament I just organized, ISL, a test run for much larger things. With money comes motivation. Back in the day there was a small prize pool for iCCupCL, the second it was revoked, 3 of the top teams dropped out of iCCupCL. Just a small example, but all things are repetitive in life. iCCup is a well established server with an array of games, goals, and abilities. That is their up side. Down sides: looking desperate. iCCup openly advertises that they want people to pay to advertise on their website (very large prices). Surely I don't know anything about the details of it, but it looks god awful. Simple 4-6 page letters to possible sponsors, offering them perks from those arrays of abilities, and they could easily land large amounts of sponsorship. At this point, someone might ask how money alone is going to increase a population of a server. Maybe that person might even think I'm short sighted and lack an idea of reality. With a small $10,000 budget (easily accomplished by a server as large as iCCup in comparison to the several thousands I've acquired with just hits, schemes of other tournaments, and a lot of ass kissing), iCCup could have a complete turnaround. The only thing holding them back is the ego's at the head, the lack of bandwith, and a lack of foresight.
Hmm. I don't think getting sponsor money is quite as easy as you make it sound, but then again I have no experience with that kind of stuff. However, I do know that the DotA section does seem to have a bit of money, as I believe the top 3 players on the DotA ladder each season do get a cash prize, and recently there was a $1000 DotA tournament. As I said earlier, I think it's just a matter of the heads of ICCup favoring DotA over BW.
A simply projected well budgeted $10,000 would have things like a seasonal $500 to admins. If you paid the Super Admins of each game ($1500 a season) as well as the Head Admins, developers, and maintenance there would be a lot of jealousy by the underlings at the start.
Need to make a few factual corrections here. That should read "Head Admins of each game", since the super admins are actually in charge of each section (ladder, CAT, tournaments, etc) of each game. Also, I do believe that some of the developers are actually paid already, although I have no idea how much and who exactly is paid.
This would, just like in real life, turn quickly into a motivation for underlings to perform more professionally, better, faster, and more completely than their counterparts to compete for the money. Follow that up with prizes for all of their leagues, constant small cash tournaments, and whatever they could come up with that would generate attention. The affects would not be immediate, but $10,000 could easily last 3 seasons (well over a year).
Again nitpicking, but I believe a season is about 3 months so that wouldn't quite be a year ^^
Three seasons is ample time for growth that would 100% come. Primarily Koreans and the remaining foreign Battle.Net players. The B.Net players because it's new, it's organized, and it offers incentive. Koreans mainly for the last reason, incentive. No offense, but many Koreans just want to play BW all day and need an excuse to, this is where small cash tournaments come into effect. I don't think I need to explain the chain affect that bringing dominant players would bring. Yet, I'll see mention a small part of the process... dominant players come, players who dominate them come, fans of them come, players who want to practice with them come, and generally just that the mass is followers. I kept this short and simple and without a lot of detail of what would need to happen for the same reason iCCup is slowly dying; it will never happen.
A couple of months ago, I would just dismissed most of this as impossible because there's no way we could pull that kind of money back into BW. However, I would have thought a $1000 starleague would be impossible as well, but you've somehow managed to pull that off. So now all I can say is: rather than saying "it will never happen", why don't you try to make it happen?
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Croatia9456 Posts
I agree with Sayle that some of the people in charge of ICCup are preferring DotA over BW lately. I've been playing DotA on ICCup since it was in Beta stage (a little over a year ago) and in first season there were usually less than 1000 people online (less than BW section at the time).
But since DotA is undoubtedly more popular than BW in foreign world, plus with SC2 release, people in charge of ICCup focused more on DotA. In turn, these days there are 15000 people online in Dota servers at any time, while BW is around 1000.
But as Game said, with money a lot of things could be changed for better. However, I also would say that getting such money is impossible, but we currently have a $1000 starleague so I don't know what to say anymore...
And as I said before, I'm really curious where the BW community (and ICCup) will be 1 year from now 
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Does anyone know why the population on the DotA server has jumped massively recently? Is it just that they've injected money into the scene from sponsors, or do they have ads on their DotA server and are actively purchasing adspace? Maybe the SC iccup server should adopt advertising at the top bar like in bnet; I'm not sure how profitable it'd be but it's an option I'd like to see considered.
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On March 14 2011 23:00 Garrl wrote:
Does anyone know why the population on the DotA server has jumped massively recently? Is it just that they've injected money into the scene from sponsors, or do they have ads on their DotA server and are actively purchasing adspace? Maybe the SC iccup server should adopt advertising at the top bar like in bnet; I'm not sure how profitable it'd be but it's an option I'd like to see considered.
Wouldn't even be remotely profitable to anyone. Even with new games, the leagues/tournaments and organizers struggle to convert their effort into a legitimate working business. Ive always just seen iccup and similar things as a donation run economy, no one is making money its just for the love of the scene.
@ the op.. I understand wanting people to keep playing on iccup but the real issue here is the majority playerbase still exists in Korea so they will play on a korean service. Cant you just go play on brainclan? We foreigners never had a problem going on game-i back in the dark ages of bw 10 years ago
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On March 15 2011 03:43 red.venom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 23:00 Garrl wrote:
Does anyone know why the population on the DotA server has jumped massively recently? Is it just that they've injected money into the scene from sponsors, or do they have ads on their DotA server and are actively purchasing adspace? Maybe the SC iccup server should adopt advertising at the top bar like in bnet; I'm not sure how profitable it'd be but it's an option I'd like to see considered. Wouldn't even be remotely profitable to anyone. Even with new games, the leagues/tournaments and organizers struggle to convert their effort into a legitimate working business. Ive always just seen iccup and similar things as a donation run economy, no one is making money its just for the love of the scene.
But there isn't even anywhere to donate on iccup.
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Instead of making proper response I'll jot down what I wrote in a notepad as I read the responses:
Talk to Sayle about needing very specific information from iCCup that is easily accessible and providable by the heads, and needing to make a deal with them - as my services warrant compensation for such a huge task
Point out that people are missing a lot of the point. iCCup's problems were merely an example, server growth is what I'm focused on. Sure it starts with simplicities like admining, control, "DotA", but more so the layout of constant events that needs to take place for the followers to spring into iCCup action.
Point out that this is a factual argument, not an opinion. Although it is factual, this only came about when I told iCCup.yeszero how easy (in much much more detail) something like this would be. I understand business all around, especially in retaining micro-economy (players). While I do fully comprehend all of the things that go into and come out of those processes, I never offered a willingness to do it. You can see the contempt in my writing for the giant barrier between a go-getter and what I think of iCCupBW. I personally just do not feel there would be enough cooperation from the servers heads in order to achieve server dominance with a project like this. Ironic, isn't it?
PS thank you red.venom for pointing out iCCup should be viewed as an economy, not a server. "I've always just seen iCCup and similar things as a donation run economy." Also, I do play brainclan. Regardless, that's just a majority idea. "Koreans are the majority, you are there, you should follow." My idea is solely based on bringing the majority to me. Contrary beliefs it's easily achievable but seldomly viewed.
@ Garrl, no one would donate anyway. At least, the people who originally would, would quickly find out the idiocy and ignorance involved in their donation. A free server receiving small benefits is like a poor person receiving filet mignon. It would be treated simply as food and not handled the way it should be.
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Not much to add, since I'm completly in Game's side, hence why i'm in LRM and I consider this team my home & family despite of have been in ToT, ESC and mouz.
Talking about the $... It's not as easy Game said, it actually can be EASIER. He's right, you guys would be impressed what you can get with the right motivation, the right insight, the right point of view at determined ocations and the right people. Second year studying $, I know what I'm talking about and I know Game is right.
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On March 15 2011 06:56 Game wrote:
Point out that this is a factual argument, not an opinion. Although it is factual, this only came about when I told iCCup.yeszero how easy (in much much more detail) something like this would be. I understand business all around, especially in retaining micro-economy (players). While I do fully comprehend all of the things that go into and come out of those processes, I never offered a willingness to do it. You can see the contempt in my writing for the giant barrier between a go-getter and what I think of iCCupBW. I personally just do not feel there would be enough cooperation from the servers heads in order to achieve server dominance with a project like this. Ironic, isn't it?
Do you think the server heads would actively oppose this if someone who was willing to take on the task and could handle it was willing to step up to the plate, or is this just something they would like to see happen in a "that would be nice kinda way" but don't care enough to actively pursue it themselves?
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EPT
