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Going to do some simple archiving of my games based on pics. I recently started to stream and my goal is to get better at BW.
12/23/2011
My first ZvZ win on Brain!
I hate SC2 ZvZ, so it was no surprise to find that I didn't like BW ZvZ either. I have no idea what I am doing and my hydra armies just melt to muta ling. So I decided to avoid ZvZ altogether...until today.
My opponent switched to Z right as the seconds timed down. I say, "Oh Shit", and I have this sinking feeling in my stomach because I know the pain that is to come. But I got into the game with the mindset of just practicing the 9 Pool Speed build that I got from Liquipedia.
Here is the story:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZvRya.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sUl5A.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hUKkB.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p4xuK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oSGGT.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L75l5.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/edOdK.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F5gjQ.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Finbz.png)
Lessons learned:
1. Muta/ling>Hydra
2. My skill level in BW is very low compared to SC2. But for some reason even my low level games in BW are more satisfying than 10 SC2 wins! It's a great feeling! In SC2, I have grown numb to winning, I hope BW never makes me go "meh".
 
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Sounds fun  I personally enjoy zvz in bw a lot more than in sc2 because of the intense scourge/muta micro. I too have become numb to winning in sc2 but on bw it feels great every time so far for me. BW is definitely more rewarding.
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your Country52798 Posts
Good one ^^
I like that you learned from your mistakes.
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I really enjoyed reading this!
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Congrats! Enjoyed your telling of it.
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Winning ZvZ should make you feel happy... It is probably the hardest MU in all of brood war to win at, being the inverted pendulum match up.
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United States996 Posts
winning in bw feels unreal :D gjgjgj keep fighting~
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Thanks broskis, if I get an interesting game I will do more.
Two quick questions please:
1. I was very late in terms of spire tech compared to my opponent. He put up his spire and I did not even have lair tech. I believe I made the right choice in going for expo and trying to get the gas advantage. My question is whether the spores were enough and I actually did not have to get hydras? Is hydra den just a complete waste in ZvZ?
2. Is mass scourge/ling viable against muta/ling?
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Congrats man! Love seeing these kinds of blogs pop up.
Winning in BW is awesome. Won my first PvZ the other night, jumping up and down for joy <3
Keep at it, you'll be gosu in no time
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On December 24 2011 09:52 Golgotha wrote:
Thanks broskis, if I get an interesting game I will do more.
Two quick questions please:
1. I was very late in terms of spire tech compared to my opponent. He put up his spire and I did not even have lair tech. I believe I made the right choice in going for expo and trying to get the gas advantage. My question is whether the spores were enough and I actually did not have to get hydras? Is hydra den just a complete waste in ZvZ?
2. Is mass scourge/ling viable against muta/ling?
no you can infinitely micro against scourge with mutas
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On December 24 2011 10:05 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:52 Golgotha wrote:
Thanks broskis, if I get an interesting game I will do more.
Two quick questions please:
1. I was very late in terms of spire tech compared to my opponent. He put up his spire and I did not even have lair tech. I believe I made the right choice in going for expo and trying to get the gas advantage. My question is whether the spores were enough and I actually did not have to get hydras? Is hydra den just a complete waste in ZvZ?
2. Is mass scourge/ling viable against muta/ling?
no you can infinitely micro against scourge with mutas
Ah I see 
On December 24 2011 10:03 X10A wrote:
Congrats man! Love seeing these kinds of blogs pop up.
Winning in BW is awesome. Won my first PvZ the other night, jumping up and down for joy <3
Keep at it, you'll be gosu in no time
Thanks man! I really appreciate all these comments, it makes me even more determined to get better.
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Nice, ZvZ is probably the hardest matchup so gratz on the win!
As for muta/scourge. Group your mutalisks with an overlord so you can clump and micro them, and right-click your scourge on the mutas so that they follow. Circle your mutalisks around a bit if they start declumping.
If scourge are chasing your mutas, what you have to do is click patrol on your bundle of mutas and they will spin 180 and flick shot the scourge, you need to right click move away right after, rinse and repeat and you can kite scourge forever, takes a lot of skill though. You can also do this with clumped wraiths vs scourge.
Surprised you are playing on Brain instead of ICCUP, its much higher level over there o_O.
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Winning (or even losing actually...) feels better than SC2 :D I dont know what it is but you get this rush and it feels really good and satisfying.
In terms of tips:
1) Feel free to cancel speed to get lair when you see he has sunken up already in ZvZ
2) You can leave a game and not get a loss in the first few seconds of the game (30 seconds?)
3) As you mentioned, hydras SUCK against muta. Mutas are a "small" unit and so hydra's do very little damage against them. Also players with better micro can kill hydras without taking damage so don't rely on them!
1. I was very late in terms of spire tech compared to my opponent. He put up his spire and I did not even have lair tech. I believe I made the right choice in going for expo and trying to get the gas advantage. My question is whether the spores were enough and I actually did not have to get hydras? Is hydra den just a complete waste in ZvZ?
You can definitely get spores. Most late game ZvZs get there due to one player having later spire. You have to expand in order to turtle because if you turtle with 1 base, you can't expand due to having no map control.
Never get hydras, 1 spore kills a million mutas.
2. Is mass scourge/ling viable against muta/ling?
In the lower levels yes, because imperfect micro kills mutas. Later on, this becomes less and less viable. Also, you typically go scourge/ling when you lose drones and it becomes a very low econ game.
If you want to go scourge/ling, keep your lings in different places to attack from multiple places! (keep their mutas close to their base or else you have ling counte rattack)
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United States10328 Posts
at low levels, scourge are probably more effective than in progames; just make sure you clone them and try not to use >2 per muta (it's hard when they're stacked though)
hydras in early/midgame ZvZ aren't that viable because they lack mobility :|
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ZvZ is hard as hell, super fast-paced and frustrating when you have to deal with the online latency that results in delay for every action you do. Which is why you should just make a majority of scourges and a few mutas. It's very irritating for the opponent if you manage to hit each 1 of his muta with 1 scourge, then use your remaining muta numbers which are way inferior to just hit him a bit and kill off his mutas.
And no hydralisk dens in ZvZ please.
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On December 24 2011 09:52 Golgotha wrote:
Thanks broskis, if I get an interesting game I will do more.
Two quick questions please:
1. I was very late in terms of spire tech compared to my opponent. He put up his spire and I did not even have lair tech. I believe I made the right choice in going for expo and trying to get the gas advantage. My question is whether the spores were enough and I actually did not have to get hydras? Is hydra den just a complete waste in ZvZ?
2. Is mass scourge/ling viable against muta/ling?
The problem with hydras is that you're completely sacrificing all mobility. You're going to be bottled up in your main behind spores and they're free to take another expansion. Muta/ling will tear apart hydralisks, and there's only a brief timing window when your hydra upgrades will kick in before they can completely overwhelm you. Usually, hydralisk play wins in ZvZ because the other guy doesn't know how to play against it and chooses to suicide needlessly into sunken/spore rather than outmobilize, expo, and take map control.
Usually, you don't even want to consider hydra play unless you've managed to pull off something like 12hatch or some late pool-hatch build, just because your economy will be shot otherwise.
Muta/ling is just a better choice. Practice your muta micro against scourge, along with your multitask. ZvZ is about small victories, like splitting scourge correctly or pulling off a 2 ling runby that kills a couple drones.
As for scourge/ling, unless your micro is perfect in splitting the scourge I wouldn't recommend it. Also, I'm a white kid with ~200 apm and I can still outmicro scourge with mutalisks; play against a Korean and they'll tear through 50 scourge with 3 mutas and make you feel like a knob. Practice muta/ling :p
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In this game, it looks like he went something like 10gas9pool, which gives him a fast lair, and immunity to early backstabs with the sunken. If I were you, I'd have just massed up speedlings and timing attacked him around halfway through his spire, when he starts saving larva and money for mutalisks. Even harassing the spire (could the sunkens hit lings attacking it from the back?) would cause him to put larva into lings and let you make up the tech disadvantage.
Either way, nice win Thanks for keeping the faith in BW and Zerg!
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Haha funny game. Congrats, keep doing this and gl hf!
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EPT
