Team of the Week (W5)

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 15 2009 13:52 GMT

It's hard to beleive we're almost at the end of this round o.O - just goes to show what two proleague games a week per team does. Nevertheless, it seems that I am only writing these bi-weekly; that's mostly because I've never been so busy in my life T_T! In the face of this workload, it gives me great pleasure to be able to write about something which does mean a lot to me and write for a site that is awesome in exactly 37 ways (without degeneracy).

Moving on to slightly more relevant information, this past week in Proleague has been unmemorable to me. Why exactly I'm not sure. I can't recall, for the life of me, any series accurately or with any detail what so ever. Is this due to the quality of the games? I don't think so.. The quality is as high as ever... It's just that the things I'm watching don't scream out amazing. The few things I do recall are things like Jaehoon vs Lomo on Heartbreak (~~either Hiya or Leta.. can't remember~~) and Luxury sucking really bad.

This weeks Team of the Week wasn't easy to decide for that reason. Do I choose one of the more successful teams and highlight there awesomeness, or do I pick one of the worser teams and try win a fan boy or two over to the light side. Anyone who has been reading my shit for awhile will know that I invariably tend to writing about the latter.

This is an exception.

Plexa's Team of the Week

Hwaseung OZ

Hwaseung OZ hasn't always been Hwaesung, indeed, they have not always been Oz either. Hwaesung's origins lie in the ancient Ideal Space team. This team once harbored the greatest players in Starcraft history. How can I say that definitively? The team had (at one point or another) Boxer, Yellow, Nada and IntoTheRainbow (among others... I think IntoTheRain was on IS as well). However, when Reach defeated Boxer in SKY 2002, Boxer's Dad blamed IS's weak Protoss lineup and Boxer quit IS.

In addition to this turmoil, IntoTheRainbow was having a hard time with the coaching staff and he was not allowed to practice at the IS house and forbidden to join any other team until his contract expired. He left the team too, and ironically joined up with Boxer's new break-away Dong Yang team. Nada and Yellow were poached by KTF in 2003 and the team was well and truly dead.

IS abandoned their name and adopted the name "Plus" and acquired sponsorship from K-tec. This new plus team was vastly different to IS or OZ. They were the worst team in proleague/team leauge for many many seasons. Indeed, they weren't even allowed to compete in many Proleauges because they were so bad (lowest team played off against the team that didn't play in the last season, loser didn't play in the upcoming season) (actually this is a bit unfair, they did alright up until 2004).

The Ktec-Plus team. Who are they? No idea! Except that PuSan is the 2nd in from the left

Who was on this disastrous Ktec team? Players like Mumyung, Eliza and Pusan. The team expanded, just a little bit, when Anytime, Shinhwa and ToSky joined up in 2004. Basically, the team was nothing and lead by a player infamous for failing - who was later poached by SKT1 leaving the team stranded and helpless.

Doesn't that Coach look familiar?

I don't think the coach of Hwaseung has changed over the years - but I know the man has an eye for talent. He was at least one of the coaches for IS where he must have had some impact on recruiting Nada (who was later poached). He then recruited the likes of PuSan (who was also later poached), Anytime and most recently Jaedong (more about that later). It was arguably his ability to know which players had talent which kept Plus alive (Ktec dropped their sponsorship in 04).

In 2005, his hard work and persistence paid off - two of his budding talents bloomed and sparked an entire generation of Protoss (macro) revolution. Well, Pusan wasn't exactly on Plus at that point (he transferred to POS in early 2005) but the point of the story is that things were finally looking up. Players from Plus were finally transforming into the monsters they rightfully should have been.

Two friends meet up in So1 OSL

Anytime made his way to the OSL finals by defeating iloveoov. This was a remarkable achievement and he became the first player to reach the final of a Starleague for Plus since Boxer in 2002. Before the finals his coach had this to say:

On October 28 2005 05:54 instantbunz wrote:
Interview translated from Fighterforum.com:
===============================

They all thought it was impossible for Anytime to beat Oov.

The reason was simple. The dilemma of not having a sponsor(for the team), that there weren't any S-class players, and that the players' relationship between each other weren't close. 'Plus' team's coach always stated that he was confident, but it was a harsh reality. He was frustrated in every game.

But when you wish for it, it will happen. That is a game, and this is how a games turned into e-sports. The following is an interview of Anytime[gm]'s coach, of how he brought him to the finals.

-A player that you raised is going to the finals.
▶Yes. Though I was in the same teams, players like Boxer and Yellow were not players that I raised by myself. I really thank Anytime. His attitude in practicing and mindset was really great. It's really sentimental.

-What was the hardest part?
▶In the Proleague team games, Anytime had to give up many entries to practice for Starleague. Even though I knew that the team would suffer without him, I took him out of the games as much as possible. A lot of the team's burdens rested on Anytime. It was really difficult to plan out the Proleague player entries. The team games were important, but Anytime's semi-finals preparations were also important. That problem was the hardest to deal with.

-You're a coach that's really friendly with the players.
▶During the amateur times, I spent time with them as an older brother to a younger brother, not as a coach to a player. I treated them with high respect. It's because I think the relationships between each other are important.

-When did you first meet Anytime?
▶It was probably around July of 2003. In the Yuhsoo Amateur Game Festival I was accompanying one of our players, Mumyung. One of the amateurs that entered was Anytime. At the time, he got 4th place, but because he was a Protoss user, he had a huge impression on me. And so I suggested that he become one of the players, and also made him play several games online. The results from the practices online with him were so great that I told him to come up to Seoul, and he came and won a lot. This is how he was brought in.

-What is one thing you would like to say to Anytime?
▶Just like you asked, "Help me to succeed as a progamer," when you came up to Seoul, I hope that you don't lose the basics (novice attitude). And when you do succeed, I hope that you will be a person that remembers the people around you. I know that you will have a central role as the team's ace.

-What about the finals with Boxer?
▶Now that Anytime is entering the finals, I will invest whatever the team can to help him win. As a coach I have an ambition to raise stars. Anytime and I think that oov and Boxer are difficult opponents, but not impossible.
======================================================

And some comments which further emphasize the context in which Anytime was playing in;

On October 28 2005 05:56 instantbunz wrote:
So touching ='(

In the past, people always used to use the team 'Plus' as an example of how poor the team is financially, and how poor the team is doing in the games. Now they have an extremely valuable player. Reminds me of July in the team POS (now they have Pusan, so all they need is a crazy Terran player).

On October 28 2005 06:57 priceless wrote:
Anytime should stay in Plus. It's the whole spirit that makes him so good. It's like July should be in POS and Nal_rA should have been in GO. The whole thing is ruined if you change team for most players. The only ones who remained as gods even when they changed teams are Reach and Nada.

Anytime eventually won the finals, and became a Royal Roader in doing so. But that was about it for him in the foreseeable future. Anytime could not remain at the top and suffered a huge slump - dropping back to the offline preliminaries. And so Plus's performance dipped, as one would expect.

Actually, right at the start of 2006 Plus died, and a new team was born. Yes, this was indeed Lecaf Oz - a name which everyone would come to fear. However, 2006 was not there yet. It was, however, the year they would expose the Tyrant onto the Brood War scene.

The two titans of the new Lecaf Oz team

Sometime in 2005, I beleive, Plus recruited the formidable Jaedong to their ranks. Well he wasn't so formidable back then - he was just like any other gamer. However, in 2006 he made his debut for Lecaf in April of 2006. (Actually before this he played in a rookie league, where he trounced everyone including the likes of free). His performance across 2006 was impressive and the following summary of statistics across 2006 clearly shows this;

▶ Zerg (results from all TV games played in 2006)

vs Terran

1. Savior 28-10 73.6%
2. Yellow[Arnc] 21-10 67.7%
3. GGPlay 17-10 62.9%
4. GoRush 10-7 58.8%
5. Jju 11-8 57.8%
6. July 12-10 54.5%
7. Silver 10-9 52.6%
8. Jaedong 15-14 51.7%
9. Yellow 13-18 41.9%
10. Zergman 12-19 38.7%
11. Chojja 11-17 39.2%

vs Zerg

1. Jaedong 20-7 74.0%
2. Zergman 12-5 70.5%
3. GGPlay 11-6 64.7%
4. Savior 22-13 62.8%
5. GoRush 9-6 60.0%
6. Chojja 19-15 55.8%
7. Jju 16-13 55.1%
8. Yellow[Arnc] 16-14 53.3%
9. July 10-9 52.6%
10. Silver 12-11 52.1%
11. Yellow 8-13 38.0%

vs Protoss

1. Jaedong 15-4 78.9%
2. Savior 25-7 78.1%
3. Jju 13-4 76.4%
4. July 20-7 74.0%
5. GGPlay 17-6 73.9%
6. Silver 8-5 61.5%
7. Yellow[Arnc] 11-7 61.1%
8. GoRush 6-5 54.5%
9. Zergman 9-8 52.9%
10. Chojja 11-11 50.0%
11. Yellow 6-10 37.5%

Total

1. Savior 75-30 71.4%
2. GGPlay 45-22 67.1%
3. Jaedong 50-25 66.6%
4. July 43-26 62.3%
5. Jju 40-25 61.5%
6. Yellow[Arnc] 48-31 60.7%
7. GoRush 25-18 58.1%
8. Silver 30-25 54.5%
9. Zergman 33-32 50.7%
10. Chojja 41-42 49.3%
11. Yellow 27-41 39.7%

Considering that this was effectively his first year as an A class gamer - this is phenomenal. Indeed Anytime picked up the slack later on in the year (in the fall) and reached the finals of Shinhan 2 OSL - as well as assisting in leading Lecaf to victory in proleague.

Oz also showcased the talents of fOrGG in 2006 and in 2007 they became one of the "teams to watch". This is all nicely explained by haji in his FE "Why Lecaf Oz will win the Proleague. Lecaf was looking up and were indeed the eventual winners of the Proleague in 2007 (along with Jaedong winning the Seoul eSports Festival, EVER07 OSL and GOMTV S4 MSL).

In 2008 Lecaf exploded, as most of you already know. With a beastly lineup of HiyA, fOrGG, Lomo, Backho, Anytime and lead by Jaedong - they dominated the 08-09 Proleauge while fOrGG won Arena MSL (over Jaedong), Jaedong won the GOM Intel-Classic S1, Backho became a semifinalist and Anytime joined Ace.

Where do they stand in 2009? Jaedong added another title to his already impressive resume. In fact, strictly speaking he added two - he also won the GOMTV Winners Match between himself and Bisu. And recently they've been on a tear once again in Proleague - and that is why they are my team of the week this week.

Jaedong

I've already ranted on about Jaedong quite a bit, but indeed he needs even more discussion. Jaedong is at the top of his game. There isn't a match against a single person at the moment that you would bet against Jaedong in. In this age where Bonjwa's a just myth - this is the closest you'll get to it. Any match he loses people immediately jump on him as if he is slumping - that just shows you the magnitude of his skill. When he's not winning at 100% there's something wrong; that's the sign of a Tyrant.

Indeed, Jaedong's Korean nickname is now "The Tyrant" (formerly Legend Killer) for his dominance over the Korean scene in the past 2 years. His skill lies between a mixture of raw talent, determination and practice, and avoiding the path of the night (because slumps don't exist). The result of this is arguably the best gamer at the moment.

Jaedong from when Lecaf was still Plus

Unlike Bisu he does not get cocky or arrogant, he stays cool and true to himself, his team and his roots. Unlike Flash he has the staying power to remain at the top and the consistency to perform on demand.

Jaedong joined Plus when they were the worst team in proleague, and they literally had nothing. He has been with them as they've grown into a force to be reckoned with. He hasn't had anything given to him on a silver platter - he has worked for it every step of the way; making a name for himself through dominance, not who he beat. This is why he is different from Bisu. Bisu defeated Savior which blew up his career and made him a celebrity over night. He's adored by fan girls and was poached by SKT with a huge contract. He was the superstar of Protoss - and he acted it. Jaedong, on the other hand never gave in to those pressures and knew what life was like on the other side. He maintained his commitment to being the best and as a result has many more golds than Bisu has (at least, with respect to golds that matter ie OSL).

The difference between Jaedong and Flash lies somewhere in the coaching staff and training environment. I get the feeling from KTF that they feel like they can buy their way to the top of anything. That and that their practice environment isn't the best. I don't know... there isn't any real reason why Flash is performing worse than Jaedong. There is more time for Flash though, he is only young, and has had to deal with a lot of pressure early on in his career (especially after cheesing Bisu out of the OSL - lol) and maybe all that pressure has finally caught up to him. As Jaedong's rise wasn't nearly as meteoric as Flash's I suppose he is more used to dominating - that's really the only explanation I can give for this.

Never the less, Jaedong is raping in Proleague and leading Lecaf strongly. He is raping Zergs left right and center on Battle Royal and as a result his ZvZ win percentage rose over 80% - a ridiculously impressive feat. Alas, Jaedong cannot make Lecaf perform well by himself - he has a fairly impressive support crew which have made the past few Lecaf games complete rapes.

HiyA

Of course HiyA isn't performing at the same level as Jaedong, but his performance is sufficient to force wins. HiyA, to me, isn't anything special. He has decent macro, decent micro, decent management etc. I guess the only thing worth mentioning about HiyA is his ability to perform the same week in week out. Because he is so consistent he was able to clean up in the Winner's League (almost stealing the spotlight from Jaedong) and is always able to take out a worse player.

Lomo

I'm not quite done about talking about HiyA, but I need to talk about Lomo first. Random aside; back when I first started Brood War my friend, MarineOnAStick, and his friend, DC. (dark coal), and myself used to hang out in channel Lomo of west. True story. Anyway, Lomo, unlike HiyA, is glamorous and memorable. I would say that his strength lies within his control. Indeed, he was first noted for his bionic usage (a sign of a players good control) while HiyA was noted for his Mechanical player (a sign of a players stability and macro).

Between Lomo and HiyA you have the spectrum of Terran players. The consistent arguably boring HiyA, against the inconsistent and glamorous Lomo. Lecaf has indeed, relied on HiyA for the reliable wins throughout both the Winners League and the Proleauge - but Lomo has stayed within grasp stealing wins off gamers with his absolutely amazing control. Together they have given Lecaf the depth required to go far in Proleauge - and indeed they complement Jaedong well. Obviously, a team needs their Protoss too so thats when they call on...

BackHo

When Backho broke out last year in EVER08 it was painfully obvious that he was not a top tier gamer. He played stupid, but he had good macro and that was sufficient. Backho himself in recent interviews has acknowledged that he was deficient back then. Then something amazing happened; both for the pleasure of my eyes, and for Backho's career. He fucked up his back. This meant two things;
a) I would not have to put up with his horrendous game play anymore (and not have to argue with people about his bad game play)
b) He got time to THINK about Starcraft, rather than play.

Thank god for the second one of those. He finally applied his brain to Starcraft and wow! His gameplay has become so much better. He can now outclass gamers with ease - and not look stupid while doing so. His PvP is sharper than ever. Indeed, he already had an innate skill in the matchup (see Backho vs Stork), but now he is able to back his play up with thought out plans and whatnot, and win games that he previously would have lost (ie he would now win the aforementioned game between him and Stork). His other matchups show signs of improvement (watch July vs Backho from EVER08, and July vs Backho from GOM; massive difference).

With Backho back, and firing at all cylinders Lecaf have a sufficient lineup to hold on to their #1 ranking. Jaedong-Hiya-Lomo-Backho is a four headed monster reminiscent of the epic July-Light-Sea-Pusan combination (which was later augmented by Bisu) which won the 2006 Proleague. Lecaf, as much as I hate them, are a great team and will do well for a long time to come. And as mentioned earlier on in the article, their coach is largely responsible for this. The man has an eye for talent, and as long as he is around the team will continue to thrive.

Oh and one last thing; I really really wish people would understand their team beyond the teams Star player. Each team has a rich history which I would implore people to investigate; it will give you a whole knew perspective on them.

Saracen

United States5139 Posts

May 15 2009 14:01 GMT

Good writeup. I remember reading haji's Lecaf PL article and going "pshhh."

I like your last edit.

Harem

United States11390 Posts

May 15 2009 14:03 GMT

omg

I never thought I'd see the day

nataziel

Australia1455 Posts

May 15 2009 14:08 GMT

Omg I feel so bad for the team back in the day, they all look so sad and dejected. How would it feel to be on the cusp of getting in the proleague but failing time after time

((((

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 15 2009 14:08 GMT

brb cleansing myself at the MBCHero Shrine

keV.

United States3214 Posts

May 15 2009 14:11 GMT

Long live Oz, great writeup. I'm glad someone took the time to point out the coach Han isn't just a JD loving failure like people seem to think. When I'm watching proleague, I am probably least interested in JDs games. I think that HiyA, Backho and Lomo are all on the brink of a real breakout.

I do happen to love Magikarp terran. Hes definitely a pillar of consistency, I just happen to think his play is a little more interesting then others I guess. Hes more aggressive with his mech early game than other players it seems.

Oz 4tw.

konadora

Singapore66156 Posts

May 15 2009 14:16 GMT

Sad guy, all the good players got poached rofl

When Backho broke out last year in EVER08 it was painfully obvious that he was not a top tier gamer.

I don't know why, but I lol'd.

Great write-up, didn't think Hwaseung had such a deep history

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 15 2009 14:19 GMT

Thats how teams used to pay the bills~!

MasterReY

Germany2708 Posts

May 15 2009 14:20 GMT

yay plexa i love ur TeamoftheWeeks

FirstBorn

Romania3955 Posts

May 15 2009 14:26 GMT

#10

Is it me or Plexa is slowly turning from a Lecaf/JD hater to a fanboy ?

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 15 2009 14:27 GMT

#11

Just you wait until the very first moment they start to suck

im going to be allll over it

Bonus picture

Nada and Mumyung

Nada on KTF -> now thats old school haha

FirstBorn

Romania3955 Posts

May 15 2009 14:31 GMT

#12

Just kidding, we all know you're a hardcore MBC fanboy.

Great writeup, I loved it. Keep them coming!

Trezeguet

United States2656 Posts

May 15 2009 14:32 GMT

#13

Thanks for the article, as you say, it's really neat to learn more about every team. Thanks!

konadora

Singapore66156 Posts

May 15 2009 14:33 GMT

#14

Lol haven't seen Nada in a KTF uniform in a looong time.

Wtf that's MuMyung? Holy crap.

EvoChamber

France2505 Posts

May 15 2009 14:43 GMT

#15

The great thing about Plexa's articles are that they're so even-handed. Even though he really dislikes a player or a team, he'll still go out of his way to acknowledge their strengths. Makes me wish he wrote the power rank this month ^_^ 5/5, as ever.

I'd be glad to research the history of any of the 12 teams, but there's no readily available resources to do so. These articles are about as good as it can get.

(btw, the one game you remembered this week was not Leta or Hiya, but Lomo vs. Jaehoon on Heartbreak.)

cHicKeLoR

Germany559 Posts

May 15 2009 14:43 GMT

#16

very nice write up. Hope you motivation to make more of those is not crumbling under your work load

FragKrag

United States11552 Posts

May 15 2009 14:47 GMT

#17

nice writeup

I also hate Oz!!!

Elyvilon

United States13143 Posts

May 15 2009 14:50 GMT

#18

Great article Plexa! Just one nitpick:

On May 15 2009 22:52 Plexa wrote:
In 2008 Lecaf exploded, as most of you already know. With a beastly lineup of HiyA, fOrGG, Lomo, Backho, Anytime and lead by Jaedong - they dominated the Proleague (runner up in Shinhan Proleague 08)

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Lecaf didn't even make the playoffs in the 2008 proleague, and the runner-up was OGN.

alffla

Hong Kong20321 Posts

May 15 2009 14:54 GMT

#19

beautiful

samachking

Bahrain4949 Posts

May 15 2009 15:01 GMT

#20

On May 15 2009 23:50 Elyvilon wrote:
Great article Plexa! Just one nitpick:

Show nested quote +

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Lecaf didn't even make the playoffs in the 2008 proleague, and the runner-up was OGN.

Yeah, Anytime was slumping that season, but what he is probably thinking of is Lecaf raping the individuals right and left, I think lecaf's big 5 had atleast 3 players in ro16/8 of all the 3 leagues. Hiya wasnt part of the big 5 then.

Thanks for the great write up Plexa

, nice to see JD's 2006 stats, but shouldnt he be less than 15-4 ZvP? I recall him being 15-15 ZvP when facing stork, did you mix up his ZvT and ZvP? Because his ZvT was considered his best MU or the mu hes known most for in 06.

LosingID8

CA10827 Posts

May 15 2009 15:06 GMT

#21

On May 15 2009 23:08 Plexa wrote:
brb cleansing myself at the MBCHero Shrine

lol

konadora

Singapore66156 Posts

May 15 2009 15:10 GMT

#22

On May 15 2009 23:50 Elyvilon wrote:
Great article Plexa! Just one nitpick:

Show nested quote +

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Lecaf didn't even make the playoffs in the 2008 proleague, and the runner-up was OGN.

Yeah it seems the one Lecaf made it into was the 2007 Grand Finals, not the 2008 one.

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 15 2009 15:15 GMT

#23

On May 16 2009 00:01 samachking wrote:

Show nested quote +

Nope, he raped up ZvT in 07/slumped ZvP in 07 is why his stats looked like that

On May 15 2009 23:50 Elyvilon wrote:
Great article Plexa! Just one nitpick:

Show nested quote +

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Lecaf didn't even make the playoffs in the 2008 proleague, and the runner-up was OGN.

Ah yes you are right.. i was thinking 2007 league when they were runner up to khan and got the years confused
thnx

fnaticNoname

India858 Posts

May 15 2009 15:32 GMT

#24

Nice writeup, Oz ftw!

snorlax

United States755 Posts

May 15 2009 16:02 GMT

#25

Sweaty backho picture made me lol

IdrA

United States11541 Posts

May 15 2009 16:22 GMT

#26

comparing hiya lomo backho to sea light pusan back then
lol
you can be honest sometimes

Deleted User 31060

3788 Posts

May 15 2009 16:46 GMT

#27

On May 15 2009 23:03 Harem wrote:
omg

I never thought I'd see the day

this is good progress Plexa!!!

great writeup, I really hope backho starts owning everybody

edit: oh, and probably the one thing you can say about HiyA is that he turtles harder than pretty much anybody

RebirthOfLeGenD

USA5860 Posts

May 15 2009 16:46 GMT

#28

pff and Ace doesn't have that rich of a history, the teams only like 2 years old :D I just like the members of the team and that's what I look at. They are all stars in their own respect.

omninmo

2349 Posts

May 15 2009 16:55 GMT

#29

this is so amazing. thanks plexa. what a great series you will have when this is all done. you deserve an eggo.

IntoTheWow

is awesome32274 Posts

May 15 2009 17:19 GMT

#30

lol Pusan.

Oh, that quote is so truth. Some players moving teams are just... so sad.

Nal_rA, Anytime, GoRush, July, Bisu....

Gray[FH

152 Posts

May 15 2009 17:41 GMT

#31

great write-up!
jaedong!!

Scorch

Austria3371 Posts

May 15 2009 17:56 GMT

#32

Nicely written Plexa!
I wouldn't have thought that OZ could continue performing decently after losing Anytime and ForGG.

GHOSTCLAW

United States17042 Posts

May 15 2009 18:02 GMT

#33

sticky!

Backho has gotten a ton better. A huge amount.

And where on earth are people going to find the OP for rek's "slumps don't exist" thread...that's a small look into progaming, gone for forever.

imperfect

Canada1652 Posts

May 15 2009 19:08 GMT

#34

i only liked Oz because Anytime was there.

now they're just ...

sick write up though!

KwarK

United States42539 Posts

May 15 2009 19:49 GMT

#35

I disagree that the OSL is all that matters and I'm not sure how you can say that when the MSL has been around for as long as it has, has had all the most prestigious players representing in it (strangely the MSL finalists are generally a better guide to who is on top than the OSL) and has the same prize money and competitiveness.

Nanoo

229 Posts

May 15 2009 19:54 GMT

#36

thats beautiful...thanx plexa

zdubius

Slovakia126 Posts

May 15 2009 20:08 GMT

#37

Excellent article, I found especially the team's history very interesting. I had a vague idea they had a hard time in their beginning, but your text added much needed info. Thanks a lot for your effort.

Ver

United States2186 Posts

May 15 2009 20:35 GMT

#38

I love your writeups and am very glad you're doing them again. However, are blogs the right place for this kind of top quality writing? I feel like they aren't getting the attention they deserve and that broodwar/FEs would be better. I've missed several weeks since I keep forgetting they exist as I never check blogs.

As for Jaedong vs Flash in terms of consistency, I think it's moreso along the lines of Flash never ever losing to C level players and always advancing to at least the group stages of every single league (whereas Jaedong randomly doesn't qualify sometimes i,e losing to Han and not making the next OSL either). So when it gets to deeper rounds you have Flash playing games every single day and then suddenly implodes, drops all his games at once, and subsequently slumps while Jaedong can cruise by in just one league after losing in the others (the only time he ever advanced far in two leagues at once was in Arena/GSL1, which is kinda strange since he was slumping then). It is indeed a bizarre thing though; perhaps Jaedong simply has an advantage because he can rely on at least one person (anytime/forgg before, now hiya) to do something in proleague whereas Flash has literally nobody now that 2v2 is gone. Or maybe Jaedong's insane practice regime gives him extra stamina that Flash doesn't have or something.

On May 15 2009 22:52 Plexa wrote:Jaedong, on the other hand never gave in to those pressures and knew what life was like on the other side. He maintained his commitment to being the best and as a result has many more golds than Bisu has (at least, with respect to golds that matter ie OSL).

This kind of jumped out of the woodwork though; that's a pretty weak comment from somewhat so knowledgable like you. That's like saying July's golds are more impressive than iloveoov's and Savior's when it's blatantly not the case. Imo OSL winners are generally inferior to MSL winners because the MSL winners are the ones who just continue their streak whereas aside from Boxer/Nada every OSL winner never goes far in the next one and sometimes are just lucky people who never do anything again (Sync, Casy, GGplay among others). MSL's only winner who does not have another gold is ForGG, while Reach, Xellos, Kingdom, Anytime, and the above three have won an OSL and never any other league. OSL's maps are often more interesting but they usually are way more imbalanced as well (probably a big factor).

Also, which were the seasons where Anytime did really well in proleague? I know he went on a ridiculous tear in the 07-08 league but I had always thought he established himself as one of the best proleague players ever before that. I just can't find what season(s).

I can't wait to see your MBC writeup and what you have on Light; he's an interesting player I'd really like to know moree about.

pubbanana

United States3063 Posts

May 15 2009 20:41 GMT

#39

Didn't read the thread, but in the first picture, the players are ToSky, PuSan, Eliza, Freshen, MuMyung, and SinDoki. Freshen used to be one of my absolute favorite Terrans.

Lucktar

United States526 Posts

May 15 2009 20:44 GMT

#40

I'd go gay for Lomo. =\

United States6173 Posts

May 15 2009 22:19 GMT

#41

I love these write-ups. Keep them up. (:

Tekin

2711 Posts

May 15 2009 23:24 GMT

#42

DOOD I can't wait for the next team it better be MBC or CJ!!

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 16 2009 00:13 GMT

#43

No matter what we say, the koreans and most of the progamers value the OSL more highly than the MSL.

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

May 16 2009 01:29 GMT

#44

On May 16 2009 09:13 Avidkeystamper wrote:
No matter what we say, the koreans and most of the progamers value the OSL more highly than the MSL.

Exactly this (to all the people who have commented saying that I'm belittling Bisu)

I honestly rate Storks achievements higher than bisu's because the osl is more important

Oystein

Norway1602 Posts

May 16 2009 01:31 GMT

#45

You rate 1 OSL higher than 3 MSL? Are you nuts?

Edit : Also Ver`s post are pretty much the same as my feelings on the subject.
So say Savior had never won his OSL, would you have considered GGplay to be the more achieved player?

DoX.)

Singapore6164 Posts

May 16 2009 01:41 GMT

#46

<3 Nice read

Fr33t

United States1128 Posts

May 16 2009 03:28 GMT

#47

Awesome, awesome writeup! It's nice to see all of the history behind these teams that new people like me don't know about. Please keep doing these!

Harem

United States11390 Posts

May 16 2009 03:35 GMT

#48

On May 16 2009 10:31 Oystein wrote:
You rate 1 OSL higher than 3 MSL? Are you nuts?

Edit : Also Ver`s post are pretty much the same as my feelings on the subject.
So say Savior had never won his OSL, would you have considered GGplay to be the more achieved player?

1 OSL?

Wat

Oystein

Norway1602 Posts

May 16 2009 03:55 GMT

#49

On May 16 2009 12:35 Harem wrote:

Show nested quote +

1 OSL?

Wat

Read the post above mine, Plexa said he rated Storks achievements higher than Bisu`s

Elyvilon

United States13143 Posts

May 16 2009 04:57 GMT

#50

On May 16 2009 12:55 Oystein wrote:

Show nested quote +

Read the post above mine, Plexa said he rated Storks achievements higher than Bisu`s

Well, Stork also has roughly 10 silvers, which need to be weighed in as well.

Oystein

Norway1602 Posts

May 16 2009 05:23 GMT

#51

On May 16 2009 13:57 Elyvilon wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, Stork also has roughly 10 silvers, which need to be weighed in as well.

Actually he only have 3 silvers from things that counts (Starleagues) his 3 other silvers are from WCG and special events. 4 Starleague finals and 1 gold 3 silvers vs 4 golds (3 if you don`t consider GOM a real starleague) and 1 silver (2 if you consider the special match vs Jaedong). You tell me whats the best achievement...

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 16 2009 07:03 GMT

#52

Bisu's recent performance makes his more successful than Stork, but koreans will consider Stork being more successful in the Starleagues seeing how calling the MSL a starleague is a misnomer.

seppolevne

Canada1681 Posts

May 16 2009 08:12 GMT

#53

Love these writeups every (second) week, thanks!

whatusername

Canada1181 Posts

May 16 2009 08:57 GMT

#54

On May 16 2009 14:23 Oystein wrote:

Show nested quote +

well, the OSL is considered a lot more prestigious than the MSL

gk_ender

United States717 Posts

May 16 2009 22:46 GMT

#55

these are truly truly great write ups, plz keep making them

ghostWriter

United States3302 Posts

May 16 2009 23:21 GMT

#56

Jaedong is so good looking.

Atrioc

United States1865 Posts

May 17 2009 20:16 GMT

#57

I dont really agree with Stork's accomplishments being more impressive than Bisu's (though I definitely think Storks are under-rated), but there is no doubt in what Plexa said about OSL vs MSL (in that OSL is more prestigous, however with the difficulty of winning a league in general being what it is, I have to disagree that an OSL is worth more than 2 MSL, simply that 1 OSL is a bigger acheivement than 1 MSL)

and JD's golds vs Bisu.

2 OSL, 1 MSL, 1 GOM, 1 WCG Korea, 1 GOM Special Match (against Bisu himself!)
vs
3 MSL, 1 GOM

is not a contest, especially when you consider JD has had much harder finals opponents (Flash, Fantasy, etc.) and rarely even got to use his best matchup (ZvZ) in an individual league, while Bisu's best MU, PvP, accounts for 3 out of 4 of his golds.

disciple

9070 Posts

May 17 2009 23:58 GMT

#58

Meh, obviously JD has bigger achievements than Bisu, I wont even start arguing about that. With that being said a title is a title,no matter how it was won, and saying that KTY won 3/4 because of his PvP is wrong. Not to mention that statistically he was in big disadvantage against Stork in the GOM MSL S2, in the post match interview he said that even the coaches thought he had no chance to win the final... In the recent OSL, Jaedong literally ZvZed his way to the final with some ZvP exceptions on ToTM, so really, its pointless to compare one title run with another.

I dont know about the community but I will never think of JD as the best zerg ever. I felt offended in some way actually, when his fanbase started to build up. Most of his fans have not really followed his progress ever since he become a progamer and just joined the bandwagon when it became obvious that he is actually very good (that point of time was his royal road in the OSL). The hole process and this "OMG JD!" thing actually stole the spotlight from the real king of all zerg, the one and only maestro. I believe that many zerg fans were just disappointed with savior's slump and quickly recognized Jaedong as their new hope. And that makes me sad. For me JD is just another step in the evolution of the zerg players, he is just a bit better in every component of the game than the previous great champions of the swarm. But even so in my eyes he lacks the personality of the Maestro and especially of our beloved Tushin. All in all I respect deeply JD as a player and I dont think someone could take away from him all his great achievements. But savior and july are much more iconic for me...

With all this being said, I think the majority of the OZ supporters are just Jaedong fans which will eventually follow him if he gets traded. Which is sad as well

Harem

United States11390 Posts

May 18 2009 00:31 GMT

#59

On May 18 2009 08:58 disciple wrote:
With all this being said, I think the majority of the OZ supporters are just Jaedong fans which will eventually follow him if he gets traded. Which is sad as well

I am still an Oz fan without JD.

Btw, that also applies to Bisu and SKT fans.

disciple

9070 Posts

May 18 2009 00:36 GMT

#60

On May 18 2009 09:31 Harem wrote:

Show nested quote +

I am still an Oz fan without JD.

Btw, that also applies to Bisu and SKT fans.

I dont think so, SKT had the largest fanbase even before Bisu joined the squad, you cant really compare the heritage of both teams, but you are right, many fans followed bisu to t1, but even without him SKT will remain the most famous pro team in the scene

thopol

Japan4560 Posts

May 18 2009 06:14 GMT

#61

I would be an OZ fan without JD too. He's wicked and all, but BackHo is one of my favorite players and the terran line is cool too. Hiya is so comfortable cleaning up all of proleague's chumps. He's got to feel great about his job.

AlwaysGG

Taiwan952 Posts

May 18 2009 06:31 GMT

#62

haha nice history of lecaf and i had to agree i hate that team lol. idk y but i just do

CJ n SKT always been my favorite :| and frankly they doing quite good past 2 yrs. [atleast CJ did]

hite is one of my new favorite team tho

banana

Netherlands1189 Posts

May 19 2009 16:10 GMT

#63

Great read, thanks for this article.

boxxyownz

United States103 Posts

May 20 2009 03:41 GMT

#64

On May 18 2009 08:58 disciple wrote:
Meh, obviously JD has bigger achievements than Bisu, I wont even start arguing about that. With that being said a title is a title,no matter how it was won, and saying that KTY won 3/4 because of his PvP is wrong. Not to mention that statistically he was in big disadvantage against Stork in the GOM MSL S2, in the post match interview he said that even the coaches thought he had no chance to win the final... In the recent OSL, Jaedong literally ZvZed his way to the final with some ZvP exceptions on ToTM, so really, its pointless to compare one title run with another.

I dont know about the community but I will never think of JD as the best zerg ever. I felt offended in some way actually, when his fanbase started to build up. Most of his fans have not really followed his progress ever since he become a progamer and just joined the bandwagon when it became obvious that he is actually very good (that point of time was his royal road in the OSL). The hole process and this "OMG JD!" thing actually stole the spotlight from the real king of all zerg, the one and only maestro. I believe that many zerg fans were just disappointed with savior's slump and quickly recognized Jaedong as their new hope. And that makes me sad. For me JD is just another step in the evolution of the zerg players, he is just a bit better in every component of the game than the previous great champions of the swarm. But even so in my eyes he lacks the personality of the Maestro and especially of our beloved Tushin. All in all I respect deeply JD as a player and I dont think someone could take away from him all his great achievements. But savior and july are much more iconic for me...

With all this being said, I think the majority of the OZ supporters are just Jaedong fans which will eventually follow him if he gets traded. Which is sad as well

you just sound like a savior fanboy whos mad because someone dared to say jaedongs better. what alot of ppl dont get is starcraft has become alot more competitive over years, because the game evolved. im not saying savior is bad but i dont think anyone can dominate like jaedong is dominating right now. bisu has been doing good too but hes won all of his recent titles in beating jangbi, in pvp, bisu's best mu. and also jaedong didnt zvz his way all the way to the osl finals, he had to play stork,kal,light,by.hero, ggplay didnt even count because he qualified already. then the finalist fantasy who played amazingly and pulled a win somehow, you cant just say "so really, its pointless to compare one title run with another." because it makes no sense.

i dont get what you mean by jaedong isnt like the maestro, watch all jaedong games, hes always at highest level of respect for everyone, if anyone deserves to be crowned best zerg jaedong definitely qualifies for it. hes humble and plays by all the rules all the time.

should read the facts before you say something like that, and i think zvz is the biggest skill matchup interms of micro/macro, because if you make 1 mistake you lose, 1 zergling makes a difference. its not like that intense in pvp, tvt.

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 20 2009 03:48 GMT

#65

On May 18 2009 09:36 disciple wrote:

Show nested quote +

Doesn't change the fact that a large majority of SKT T1 fans are new to the game just like Oz fans and like SKT T1 just because of their ace player, like ExSoldier.
Also, you give a negative portrayal of fans of Jaedong like started following Statcraft when he was good and became a fan that way. Why? Shouldn't people naturally follow the best player at the time? Most savior fans are a fan of him because he was really good at Starcraft, it doesn't take away from their loyalty or make the older fans "better" in some way.

MaZza[KIS]

Australia2110 Posts

May 21 2009 03:47 GMT

#66

On May 20 2009 12:48 Avidkeystamper wrote:

Show nested quote +

Doesn't change the fact that a large majority of SKT T1 fans are new to the game just like Oz fans and like SKT T1 just because of their ace player, like ExSoldier.
Also, you give a negative portrayal of fans of Jaedong like started following Statcraft when he was good and became a fan that way. Why? Shouldn't people naturally follow the best player at the time? Most savior fans are a fan of him because he was really good at Starcraft, it doesn't take away from their loyalty or make the older fans "better" in some way.

Wow kid... you're amazing... your assumptioning powers are unparalleled.

The figures that you pull out... they're so OBVIOUSLY correct it's... AMAZING

Just for the record. I'm an SKT T1 fan and I've been playing sc/bw since 1998. I also didn't chose my team based on anything you stated above. I still think OZ sucks and I can't stand to see them succesful. That's how deep-rooted I am in tradition. Also, I would hate MBC if it wasn't for Leg.. MBC were POS right? Jeez, I've lost track...

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 21 2009 03:55 GMT

#67

"I'm an SKT T1 fan and I've been playing sc/bw since 1998. I also didn't chose my team based on anything you stated above"

You can't deny a mass influx of SKT icons compared to last season to this season. I wasn't talking to you specifically. Also, you're assuming the old guard of SKT T1 fans outnumber the new wave of SKT T1 fans, which is also an unbased assumption, no? I just went by the number of different users with SKT icons.

" I still think OZ sucks and I can't stand to see them succesful. "

Irrelevant, I was talking about why being a fan of someone when they started to be successful doesn't make you less a fan. I'm sure most everyone became a fan of someone because they showed really good gameplay.

"That's how deep-rooted I am in tradition. "
So...?

skronch

United States2717 Posts

May 21 2009 16:37 GMT

#68

oh boy do i love reading articles about oz

thanks for a great writeup

disciple

9070 Posts

May 21 2009 17:01 GMT

#69

On May 20 2009 12:41 boxxyownz wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm following closely the SC scene ever since 2006 so I watched 95% of JD televized games, I know what I'm saying, you can hail his incredible zvz all day, I'm not blind to the facts. But maybe you are just blind to ignore that each sentence in my post began with "imho" or "I think". My point is completely subjective, I dont like the guy much, you can do nothing to change that fact by saying "have you really watched his games?!", because yes, I can see and respect the skill and the amazing abilities he has, but wont become his fan even if he wins 10 OSLs in a row.

You see in the history of the pro scene there was only one zerg king, the Alpha zerg, at a time. Protoss have the six dragons, terrans - tone of superstar... When the maestro started to fade away, besides JD there was another guy, Kwanro, who was hailed as the next big thing. Check out some LR thread or smth from 2007 and see for yourself. "OMG kwanro has saviors, mutamicro, OMG he is so aggressive!". But what happened to kwanro? Well nothing much... I like savior a lot, I'm not his diehard fan because of my irrational love towards Bisu, but the Maestro will be The Zerg in my heart.

The problem with the most zerg fans is that they are just bandwagoning, searching for the next Alpha Zerg. The hype around JD was justified, because he became a great champion. But he will eventually share the fate of savior. Even if this would be the last thing to happen in the korean starcraft BW scene, and this will have nothing to do with his skills

IMlemon

Lithuania296 Posts

May 21 2009 18:06 GMT

#70

You have to be completely nuts to say that one OSL gold is worth more than MSL one. Yeah, you can talk about fame and crap and spin it however you want, but skill-wise they're exactly the same. In other words, it's just another excuse for the fanboys to preach about their guys greatness.

I mean seriously, just read it... It's just soooo stupid :|.

G3CKO

Canada1430 Posts

May 21 2009 19:08 GMT

#71

Anytime come back!

darktreb

United States3016 Posts

May 22 2009 01:17 GMT

#72

On May 18 2009 05:16 Atrioc wrote:
is not a contest, especially when you consider JD has had much harder finals opponents (Flash, Fantasy, etc.) and rarely even got to use his best matchup (ZvZ) in an individual league, while Bisu's best MU, PvP, accounts for 3 out of 4 of his golds.

Come on, are you serious - I'm by no means a Bisu fan (in fact I usually root against him in games) but to say "much harder finals opponents" is ridiculous. Jaedong's finals opponents were Stork, Kal, Fantasy, and Flash if you count GSL1. Bisu's finals opponents were Savior, Stork, Jangbi, and Jangbi if you count GSL2.

Bisu won his first title against Savior, the most dominant ZvP player of all time (look at him from late 2005 to mid 2007), a player who was the last bonjwa at the time and considered to be completely invincible in ZvP. Don't let the fact that Bisu brilliantly revolutionized the matchup take away from the enormity of this accomplishment, the last truly defining moment in SC.

Bisu won his second title against Stork, who at the time was considered by many to be the best PvP player ever (and he was certainly considered the best at the time). Just because over a year later, Bisu's PvP suddenly went insane, doesn't mean you can take away from the circumstances.

Jaedong's first title was against Stork. At the time, Stork's PvZ was mediocre and it always has been. Stork has always been able to hold his own and win against mediocre Zergs, but that's it.

Jaedong's second title was against Kal. Kal's pretty good but you can't even begin to compare JD > Stork and JD > Kal to Bisu > Savior and Bisu > Stork, it's not even close.

Even Jaedong over Fantasy is arguably not that much more impressive than Bisu over Jangbi. At the time, almost everyone thought Fantasy was just lucky (I wasn't one of these people but still) and most predicted an easy 3-0 for Jaedong.

So I mean, Fantasy + Flash versus Jangbi + Jangbi is debatable, but Savior ZvP and Stork PvP versus Stork PvZ and Kal PvZ is not even close.

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 22 2009 01:39 GMT

#73

Yeah, I'd say Jaedong had the easier finals compared to Bisu for their first two medals, but Bisu had the easier finals for their last two medals each.
Erm, the way you say how everyone thinks Fantasy got lucky at that time doesn't take anything away from how good Fantasy actually was at that time, which was insanely good.

darktreb

United States3016 Posts

May 22 2009 03:49 GMT

#74

On May 22 2009 10:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Yeah, I'd say Jaedong had the easier finals compared to Bisu for their first two medals, but Bisu had the easier finals for their last two medals each.
Erm, the way you say how everyone thinks Fantasy got lucky at that time doesn't take anything away from how good Fantasy actually was at that time, which was insanely good.

Yeah I agree he was insanely good. I even predicted Fantasy to win at the time (and said so repeatedly which came back to bite me later). I'm a big fan of Fantasy's brilliant playstyle, but even so, you must admit that even right now Fantasy is not exactly the indisputed king of TvZ. I remember he's had at least one game after OSL finals (don't remember against who, it was on God's Garden) where he just looked very mediocre TvZ. His builds in a BoX are just beautiful though.

Kyuukyuu

Canada6263 Posts

May 22 2009 04:19 GMT

#75

On May 21 2009 12:47 MaZza[KIS] wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wow... your ONE EXAMPLE so OBVIOUSLY disproves the idea that a large portion of SKT followers are new! It's... AMAZING

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 22 2009 04:22 GMT

#76

On May 22 2009 12:49 darktreb wrote:

Show nested quote +

His bio TvZ and his mech TvZ are not even comparable. He used mech in the finals. That's all I'm saying.

R3condite

Korea (South)1541 Posts

May 27 2009 01:58 GMT

#77

On May 21 2009 12:55 Avidkeystamper wrote:
"I'm an SKT T1 fan and I've been playing sc/bw since 1998. I also didn't chose my team based on anything you stated above"

You can't deny a mass influx of SKT icons compared to last season to this season. I wasn't talking to you specifically. Also, you're assuming the old guard of SKT T1 fans outnumber the new wave of SKT T1 fans, which is also an unbased assumption, no? I just went by the number of different users with SKT icons.

" I still think OZ sucks and I can't stand to see them succesful. "

Irrelevant, I was talking about why being a fan of someone when they started to be successful doesn't make you less a fan. I'm sure most everyone became a fan of someone because they showed really good gameplay.

"That's how deep-rooted I am in tradition. "
So...?

yeah but isn't the influx of new fans just the cycle of things? Kind of like how kids who nvr cared about sc while they were younger grew up and now they care?

i don't understand y u guys r bickering about something so insignificant haha

btw plexa awesome read!

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

May 27 2009 02:48 GMT

#78

Yes, I said in my post that on average, the "fans" of a team are mostly new or recent fans.
It is my goal to call out everyone more than slightly biased post in a neutral thread.

ForSC2

United States580 Posts

July 20 2009 23:42 GMT

#79

In 2006 Jaedong's vs Protoss was:
1. Jaedong 15-4 78.9%

Jaedong was known for his ZvP being his weakest matchup till he fought Stork in the finals. Aside from being ZvZ bonjwa he soon became known for his ZvT and his ability to kill established players. (Legend Killer)

TLPD lists his ZvP record from 4-30-2006 to 12-31-2006 as
5 wins - 4 losses (55.56%)

Where did you get 15-4? Is it an accidental 1 in front of the 5? It's hard to believe his ZvP was that good when he was known early on for having mediocre ZvP despite phenomenal ZvZ and ZvT.

Also, great article. I'm just Anal.

Harem

United States11390 Posts

July 21 2009 01:08 GMT

#80

On July 21 2009 08:42 ForSC2 wrote:
In 2006 Jaedong's vs Protoss was:
1. Jaedong 15-4 78.9%

Jaedong was known for his ZvP being his weakest matchup till he fought Stork in the finals. Aside from being ZvZ bonjwa he soon became known for his ZvT and his ability to kill established players. (Legend Killer)

TLPD lists his ZvP record from 4-30-2006 to 12-31-2006 as
5 wins - 4 losses (55.56%)

Where did you get 15-4? Is it an accidental 1 in front of the 5? It's hard to believe his ZvP was that good when he was known early on for having mediocre ZvP despite phenomenal ZvZ and ZvT.

Also, great article. I'm just Anal.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=47063

Plehksuh is mean

Afghanistan9 Posts

March 15 2010 14:51 GMT

#81

On May 15 2009 22:52 Plexa wrote:
It's hard to beleive

YES PLEXA IT'S VERY HARD TO BELEIVE

BELEIVE IT

BELIEVE IT OR NOT

Normal

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