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[Math Puzzle] Day3

Blogs > evanthebouncy!
Post a Reply
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 01:33:09
April 29 2009 01:21 GMT
#1
So now it's day 3!

Solution to previous day's puzzle was done by Highways. GJ!
+ Show Spoiler [solution] +

Burn 1 rope on both end, burn 1 rope on one end.
In 30 minutes, the first rope will burn out. At that precise point, burn the other end of the second rope. Second rope will then take 15 more minutes to burn out, adding up to 45.
Key Intuition: If burn both side of the rope, it'll take 1/2 the time to burn entire rope.


Today's Question:
You have a circular-ish racing track such that, when viewed from above, it is a circle, but if you view it from other angles, you realize that it has at different parts of the track different heights.
[image loading]

For instance, the racing track might look like this curve, with arbitrary heights at different points, but when viewed from above, it is a circle.

Your Job:
Prove that there exists 1 pair of points on this track that are opposite from each other when viewed above, that has exactly the same heights.
[image loading]


Extra Info:
As usual, put all answers in spoilers, and the first to answer correctly gets honorary mention in the next blog.
Clarifications will be added as needed, as some of the assumptions might not be familiar.

Again, gl hf!

Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
April 29 2009 01:38 GMT
#2
You mean at least one, right?
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24782 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 01:42:17
April 29 2009 01:42 GMT
#3
Clarification: do you mean, prove that there is at least one pair?

+ Show Spoiler +
Is this an application of the intermediate value theorum?


edit: rofl woops you got it first dromar
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Abydos1
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States832 Posts
April 29 2009 01:43 GMT
#4
+ Show Spoiler +
If the circle is completely flat its trivial; with the random heights it has to go both up and down over the entire circumference, if we look from the perspective of an observer travelling around the track always looking at the point opposite him say that it starts lower than him, he must eventually go down to that height and the track must come up to meet his height and since it is a continuous track there must therefore be a point where they cross.


I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to explain but I think that gets the point across.
"...perhaps the greatest joy possible in Starcraft, being accused of being a maphacker" - Day[9]
Hamster1800
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States175 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 01:44:25
April 29 2009 01:43 GMT
#5
+ Show Spoiler +
If you define the function f(x) (where x is a point on the circle) to be the height at x, then let g(x) = f(x) - f(-x), you can see that g(x) = -g(-x) and it is continuous, so g has to be 0 at some point (by the intermediate value theorem). This can be generalized to a sphere mapping onto two dimensions (for example the temperature and pressure at a point of the earth) and is a well known result in algebraic topology.
D is for Diamond, E is for Everything Else
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 03:12:22
April 29 2009 02:54 GMT
#6
aha
finally a puzzle i haven't seen before on the net
anyway, here's my solution
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


red dot is the proof.

actually this is just like that monk problem with the mountain 9am and 12noon going up and down stuff. so i suppose i have seen this before.
put the sol'n back in drawing form i guess if some haven't seen the monk riddle
let A start in green and B start in blue. those 2 paths are arbitrary paths they follow around half of the circle, always remaining opposite. as the red dot shows at some point the paths are same height.

dammit evan give me puzzles i haven't seen before !

(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 03:14:43
April 29 2009 03:12 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +

Let h(t)=the height of the circle at angle t (pick an arbitary point as 0). h(t) is continuous. i(t)=h(t+pi) is continuous. j(t)=i(t)-h(t) is continous. j(t)=j(t+2*pi). There exists t1, t2 in [0,2*pi) such that j(t1)>=0 and j(t2)<=0. Therefore there exists t3 in [t1,t2] or [t2,t1] such that j(t3)=0.


I like hamsters, along with any answer that references algebraic topology.
ninjafetus
Profile Joined December 2008
United States231 Posts
April 29 2009 03:31 GMT
#8
+ Show Spoiler +
Hamster1800 has the solution. For a number of the others, even if you show that the same height is reached at some point, you still haven't shown that your pair of points is at opposite ends of the projected circle.
Everywhere
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States97 Posts
April 29 2009 03:32 GMT
#9
On April 29 2009 11:54 JeeJee wrote:
aha
finally a puzzle i haven't seen before on the net
anyway, here's my solution
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


red dot is the proof.

actually this is just like that monk problem with the mountain 9am and 12noon going up and down stuff. so i suppose i have seen this before.
put the sol'n back in drawing form i guess if some haven't seen the monk riddle
let A start in green and B start in blue. those 2 paths are arbitrary paths they follow around half of the circle, always remaining opposite. as the red dot shows at some point the paths are same height.

dammit evan give me puzzles i haven't seen before !



this. the monk problem also came to my mind as soon as i read this lol
Zona
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
40426 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 05:57:00
April 29 2009 05:54 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +

Since "viewed from above it's a circle", can define a function t:[0, 2pi] -> R which represents the height of the track at each angle, which should be a continuous function. t(0) = t(2pi)

Define f:[0, pi] -> R by f(x) = t(pi + x) - t(x), which is a continuous function as well. Notice f(0) = -f(pi)
if f(0) = 0, done, otherwise can apply intermediate value theorem which says there is a y in (0, pi) such that f(y) = 0.
At this angle and the point opposite of it on the circle, the heights will be the same, since t(pi + y) - t(y) = 0
thus t(pi + y) = t(y).
"If you try responding to those absurd posts every day, you become more damaged. So I pay no attention to them at all." Jung Myung Hoon (aka Fantasy), as translated by Kimoleon
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
April 29 2009 10:09 GMT
#11
Bursak-Ulam much?
starleague.mit.edu
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 12:33:05
April 29 2009 12:32 GMT
#12
Shit me. I misunderstood the question.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
edahl
Profile Joined February 2008
Norway483 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 13:14:04
April 29 2009 13:07 GMT
#13
+ Show Spoiler +
uhm, if s=cos(s8pi)/cos(8pi), then t=(cos(s8pi)/cos(8pi) should be the same height. Then, it would be opposite of t=s+pi, though I might just be way off. Already had a math exam today, so I don't expect to be right *phuuw*


EDIT: BTW, I liked the "pure math" nature of the puzzle. Ants and strings are confusing :-P
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 13:59:36
April 29 2009 13:53 GMT
#14
You guys are all wrong!


+ Show Spoiler +

It nowhere says that the race track must be continuous, I construct my race track as
f(µ)=µ
0=<µ<2pi
The jump makes it a lot more interesting.


Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
April 29 2009 16:07 GMT
#15
On April 29 2009 22:53 Klockan3 wrote:
You guys are all wrong!


+ Show Spoiler +

It nowhere says that the race track must be continuous, I construct my race track as
f(µ)=µ
0=<µ<2pi
The jump makes it a lot more interesting.




I was going to disagree with you, but
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe a track by definition doesn't need to complete a circuit. However, if this is true, then the problem is unsolvable because you can just make a helix type track. Therefore, I believe it is to be assumed that the track forms a compelte circuit, and the solution is just using IVT.
Soli Deo gloria.
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 16:34:36
April 29 2009 16:33 GMT
#16
On April 30 2009 01:07 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 22:53 Klockan3 wrote:
You guys are all wrong!


+ Show Spoiler +

It nowhere says that the race track must be continuous, I construct my race track as
f(µ)=µ
0=<µ<2pi
The jump makes it a lot more interesting.




I was going to disagree with you, but
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe a track by definition doesn't need to complete a circuit. However, if this is true, then the problem is unsolvable because you can just make a helix type track. Therefore, I believe it is to be assumed that the track forms a compelte circuit, and the solution is just using IVT.

+ Show Spoiler +
No, all that is required to just have it be a defined function on the interval µ=[0,2pi), if you just employ the restriction that it needs to be continious you can still get into the problem where it have multiple values at the same angle.
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