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I didn't really get much time to play on ICCup lately, except for 2 binge-gaming sessions. On the bright side, there's only 2 more weeks of classes this semester, one of which is finals, and I don't have any finals. So I'll be on top of that pretty soon.
Between gaming sessions, I did find time to practice a few games with my training partner, and I've improved my ZvT immensely. I have kind of a shitty internet connection (wireless), and I'm gonna have to do something about it, because the lag is bad enough that either my opponent leaves, or we have to play on extra high latency, which makes muta builds much more difficult to pull off.
Will simply running an ethernet cord to my computer for a "wired" connection solve my lag issues?
Also, after watching Chill's and Ret's FPstreams in the past few days, I decided that some appropriate background music would be helpful. I'll reserve my conclusion as to whether it helped for now.
1v1 analysis:
Zerg(27 games)
( 4)ZvZ: 2- 2 50.0%
(12)ZvP: 2-10 16.6%
(11)ZvT: 5- 6 45.4%
9-18 33.3%
This Season:
Zerg(66 games)
(18)ZvZ: 8-10 44.4%
(28)ZvP: 5-23 17.9%
(20)ZvT: 8-12 40.0%
21-45 31.8%
ZvZ: So this round I went 2-2 ZvZ, and I'm gonna blame those losses on rustiness and forgetting how to play ZvZ. For now. Well, actually I just got outmicro'd ling vs ling. I was pretty surprised when that happened, as it's usually the other way around.
ZvP: I've been getting absolutely raped in ZvP lately. No change here since last time. I'm trying to go 5hatch hydra, but they get rolled by psi storms and zeals. Fact of the matter is that I really don't know what I'm doing in ZvP still.
I got 2-gate rushed 5 times (in a row), and I honestly have no idea what to do. Even when I know it's coming, I can barely 12hatch and fend it off. If I do, there's a period where I feel I have an advantage, except that I'm starving economically afterward from making lings/sunks to fend it off. Of course, he's on one base too, but eventually he moves out to take his nat, and I can't expand because he's containing me with 8-12 zeals. Alternatives are using 12pool/9pool/overpool more often, but I feel as if I would be behind even more if I did any of those. If I 12pool, I'd have to hatch in my main, as there's no way 1hatch ling production is going to overpower 2gates worth of rallied zeals, and 12pool means there's not going to be sunk support. I dunno, maybe 12pool isn't as bad as I'm thinking. I'll have to try it I guess, because I just can't handle 12hatching against 2gate. That's really depressing, because 12pool is such a terrible build against standard FE toss.
One of my friends is 4-1 against protoss doing nothing but 5pooling. I've never had that work personally.
ZvT: I'd say I'm currently playing the best ZvT I've ever played. As I mentioned above, muta builds are difficult to pull off with my shitty connection, so I go about half and half lurker/muta opens. My lurker build has been working surprisingly well:
+ Show Spoiler +
3hatch lurker:
12hatch
11pool
13(14) hatch
gas
6(4) lings
first 100 gas: lair
build evo
carapace
den
get nat gas around when lair finishes
lurker up
ling speed
make a few lurkers, another hatch in main/nat for production, and expo if possible
At this point, if he's good, he's kept me from getting a 3rd gas expo until now, but the contain can only last so long, before I bust out with lurkerling with +1 armor. Otherwise, I expand as soon as possible (before I have lurkers) and send my first couple hydras to morph and defend. Spire shortly after and carpace2 asap, with another evo optional. Then move to hive.
The quick +1 armor makes the lurkerling surprisingly strong to fight for map control until defilers come out.
Anyway, my recent ZvT success is in part due to practicing with my Terran practice partner. Now what I really need is a Protoss practice partner... What I really want is to practice 12hatch against 2gate nonstop until I rape the shit out of it.
Questions:
ZvZ:
1. None.
ZvP:
1. If you play Zerg, how do you deal with 2gates? When do you scout?
2. If you play Protoss, what causes you to lose when you 2gate?
3. Are there variations on 2gate opens? Like some protosses go 9/10 and some go 10/12? Or is it strictly 9/10 gate for PvZ?
ZvT:
1. Any suggestions/comments on the build outlined above?
2. Generally, what's the counter to a lurker open like the one described above? Is it just standard play + contain to delay expo and aggression?
As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Yes, use Ethernet. It will completely fix all your lag issues.
ZvP: 2 gate vs 12 hatch. You should scout with your 12th drone. You should send 2 drones out to make a expansion and one of them should make a hatchery and one of them should go scouting. You make your pool at 11 and then you should make 3 more drones. Don't make anymore drones until you are certain that the protoss is not going to 2 gate.
If you see 2 gate, wait for your spawning pool to finish and then make 8 lings. 6 from your main, 2 from your natural. You should move 3-4 drones to your natural. Make at least 1 sunken, I see some people make 2 creep colonies. I normally approach a 2 gate by getting fast gas and then get zergling speed upgrade after the first 100 gas and then I pull drones off gas after the first 100 gas. Other people like to use the 3 hatch build with no gas. At the beginning you'll see 1 probe and 1 zealot attacking your creep colony while your lings are still hatching. If the creep colony is too damaged, make another one. When your 8 lings hatch, the protoss user will have to retreat his zealot and probe. Soon afterward, the protoss user will return with 3 zeolots and a probe. Try to avoid engaging his army until your sunken completes and you have 12 lings. While you are doing this, you should position your overlord in the middle of his base. You need to see if he is continuing to make zealots or getting gas and core. You need to continue to make lings and maybe another sunken as long as he continues to make zealots. As long as your survive the 2 gate opening, you should be at a advantage.
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Curious scout timing T.O.P
I personally like to do the extractor trick and use that early 10th drone I get to do my scouting for me. This allows me to easily find the protoss before I have to decide where to place my 3rd hatch. It's kinda meh to completely stop production because you don't know what he's doing. Third hatch obviously changes its location depending on what the Toss is doing. FE it's usually a third gas, 2 gate or 1 base tech and it's in my base.
However the 12th drone scouting is also fine, might be a bit late for everyone's taste though. Everything else he said is correct. If you see him go two gate you HAVE to build a creep colony at the very least and start morphing 8 lings as fast as possible. Make sure your OL is over the base so you can tell when he starts to tech (this is the time you're usually free to start thinking about taking third gas and powering drones)
If he powers zealots hard (as in you end up killing 10+) then you should build a second sunken just incase he attempts to overwhelm you.
I suck at ZvT lurker/ling so I can't help you much there ( I play muta or hydra/lurk openings) but the counter to any lurker build is usually early tanks with fewer sci vessels.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
You never do extractor trick unless you have a special build planned out. You lose 17 minerals by doing the extractor trick. You'll end up with a worse economy.
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On April 27 2009 12:53 T.O.P. wrote:
You never do extractor trick unless you have a special build planned out. You lose 17 minerals by doing the extractor trick. You'll end up with a worse economy.
Which I usually recover with a correctly placed hatchery.
Though you are correct in that you have to tailor your builds slightly to compensate for the 17 minerals you've lost. I stopped noticing it after the third hatch kicked in either way.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
ZvT: Terran could counter the 3 hatch lurker build by containing you initially with a group of marine medic while your lurkers are still morphing. Everytime you try to move out with lurker ling, that marine medic group could kill off a lurker before running out of distance of the lurker spines. Pro gamers don't use lurker opening builds because they don't want to be contained. I think you should get a wired connection and start practicing the standard 3 hatch muta builds.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 27 2009 12:55 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2009 12:53 T.O.P. wrote:
You never do extractor trick unless you have a special build planned out. You lose 17 minerals by doing the extractor trick. You'll end up with a worse economy. Which I usually recover with a correctly placed hatchery. Though you are correct in that you have to tailor your builds slightly to compensate for the 17 minerals you've lost. I stopped noticing it after the third hatch kicked in either way.
You could place your hatchery correctly even if you don't use the extractor build. Are you doing the extractor build where you place your hatch down at 9?
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I have once played against a proxy gate build that got gateways before 9/9. It was the one and only time I had the displeasure of seeing it, and I 12hatched.
It was terrible.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
in your zvps, get a spire earlier and make a control group of mutas
use the mutas to snipe the high templar when the protoss tries to move out (note: this requires paying attention to when he moves out) and then run his shit over with hydras
didnt day[9] just do a podcast about this build? that'll probably help you out he knows what he's talking about
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On April 27 2009 13:04 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
in your zvps, get a spire earlier and make a control group of mutas
use the mutas to snipe the high templar when the protoss tries to move out (note: this requires paying attention to when he moves out) and then run his shit over with hydras
didnt day[9] just do a podcast about this build? that'll probably help you out he knows what he's talking about
Yeah I meant 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra is what I've been doing. But I need more practice with it, as I've basically just been unprepared for his move out.
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On April 27 2009 12:27 T.O.P. wrote:
Yes, use Ethernet. It will completely fix all your lag issues.
ZvP: At the beginning you'll see 1 probe and 1 zealot attacking your creep colony while your lings are still hatching. If the creep colony is too damaged, make another one. When your 8 lings hatch, the protoss user will have to retreat his zealot and probe. Soon afterward, the protoss user will return with 3 zeolots and a probe. Try to avoid engaging his army until your sunken completes and you have 12 lings.
This is a very accurate description of what happened in those games. But how do I prevent him from moving into my main, away from my very expensive sunk, before I have enough lings to stop him? I obviously need the sunk to deter continued rallying, but it seems like he can force me to make a sunk, kill off a few stray lings as they're hatching/ trying to run away, and then move into my main where I'm forced to engage or lose drones (but usually both), and then immediately lose the game.
So how can I stop him from running into my main? Doesn't this ever happen?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 27 2009 13:21 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2009 12:27 T.O.P. wrote:
Yes, use Ethernet. It will completely fix all your lag issues.
ZvP: At the beginning you'll see 1 probe and 1 zealot attacking your creep colony while your lings are still hatching. If the creep colony is too damaged, make another one. When your 8 lings hatch, the protoss user will have to retreat his zealot and probe. Soon afterward, the protoss user will return with 3 zeolots and a probe. Try to avoid engaging his army until your sunken completes and you have 12 lings. This is a very accurate description of what happened in those games. But how do I prevent him from moving into my main, away from my very expensive sunk, before I have enough lings to stop him? I obviously need the sunk to deter continued rallying, but it seems like he can force me to make a sunk, kill off a few stray lings as they're hatching/ trying to run away, and then move into my main where I'm forced to engage or lose drones (but usually both), and then immediately lose the game. So how can I stop him from running into my main? Doesn't this ever happen?
Keep your lings around your ramp when he gets close. Remember when I said "Try to not engage his zealots." You have to engage when he gets near the ramp.
On April 09 2009 07:36 Kwark wrote:What not to doWhat to doStep 1 If he realises he can't chase down your lings and he's just wasting time then he will usually head back towards the morphing sunkens. In that case go to step 2. Step 2 You're not actually attacking him in this one, just staying close enough to make him very aware of the threat so he'll turn round and chase. If he does return to step 1. If he ignores the threat then go to step 3. Step 3
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Valhalla18444 Posts
those drawings are weird i don't really get it
is kwark suggesting leaving a giant open space between the zealots and your ramp
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I think Kwark is suggesting that the zerg user should try to lure the zealots to move away from the the zerg's natural to waste time. But if the protoss user is determined to move up the ramp, the zerg user should try to surround the zealots and attack them before they are able to move up the ramp.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
that only works if you have speed (which you wont given a 12hatch vs 2gate situation)
the only correct micro is to pester the zealots while losing as few zerglings as possible until they commit to engaging one of your morphing sunkens, then you tear 'em up. don't let them up the ramp at all costs, pull drones for a drill if you have to
anyway dromar 3hatch spire to 5hatch hydra aint really a great build, you should learn how to do a proper 5hatch hydra cuz it's much stronger. more drones, more units, more more more
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On April 27 2009 17:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
that only works if you have speed (which you wont given a 12hatch vs 2gate situation)
the only correct micro is to pester the zealots while losing as few zerglings as possible until they commit to engaging one of your morphing sunkens, then you tear 'em up. don't let them up the ramp at all costs, pull drones for a drill if you have to
anyway dromar 3hatch spire to 5hatch hydra aint really a great build, you should learn how to do a proper 5hatch hydra cuz it's much stronger. more drones, more units, more more more
Interesting. So I assume that goes something like 4hatch, gas, 5th hatch, den, nat gas, hydra ups + hydras or something similar (I'll look into the details before I try it). But when would I get lair? Seems like he could have map control for quite a while by clearing the overlords on his side of the map with his first sair and then making a few dts.
Anyway I'll look into it. And Kwark's drawings are a bit confusing to me too. It seems all good, basically saying "delay the zeals by feinting a committing attack with your lings, to buy time until the sunk finishes." But then it's like, "if he doesn't fall for it and just attacks your sunk,..." then nothing. And also, yeah, those zeals have a clear run up the ramp in those pics. Either way, I just need to practice against it more, and I did come up with some good ideas. I think the key is to get really good at not losing "a few lings here and there" like I kept doing.
But as you can see, ZvP is my big problem, as I feel I'm a favorite against a random D Zerg or Terran, and about even against a D+ Zerg or Terran, but it seems like any D Protoss can roll me in any of several ways, the easiest being 2gate.
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Learning atleast one hydra all-in nat-break will probably help your ZvP out alot. If he has a bad wall-in (cannons too far back, or doesn't cover this and that) you can do your break and punish him for it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3935/wrong6python.jpg)
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