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Range Hydras > Mines

Blogs > Misrah
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Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 18:00 GMT
#1
For some reason- no one thought that my interesting counter to mech, and fantasy build is a good idea. No comments, no nothing. So for all of you zerg players out there, that are having a problem with mech, or with destination ZvT. This is for you. I hope that this time, people will actually take the time to look at this!

The thing that you need to remember while giong into a mine field with your hydras- ATTACK MOVE, DON'T MOVE!!

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


***
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
tube
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1475 Posts
March 31 2009 18:14 GMT
#2
I looked at it and play zerg,
It's no pants.
Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection.
EscPlan9
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2777 Posts
March 31 2009 18:16 GMT
#3
APRIL FOOLS!!!

oh wait... wut...
Undefeated TL Tecmo Super Bowl League Champion
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
March 31 2009 18:25 GMT
#4
a better question is, do hydras with speed do better against mines than hydras without speed?
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 18:29 GMT
#5
Range motherfucker do you have it?

Also Hot_Bid- range is far superior!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 18:30 GMT
#6
Why is this blog not 5 star?
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-31 18:48:56
March 31 2009 18:48 GMT
#7
On April 01 2009 03:25 Hot_Bid wrote:
a better question is, do hydras with speed do better against mines than hydras without speed?

An intuitive answer for me would be that slow hydras do better than speedy ones.

will watch reps after.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24644 Posts
March 31 2009 19:19 GMT
#8
On April 01 2009 03:00 Misrah wrote:
The thing that you need to remember while giong into a mine field with your hydras- ATTACK MOVE, DON'T MOVE!!

It was so difficult for me not to troll you for this comment.

Anyone who doesn't know that (just got back from the videogame store) will figure it out in one minute.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
March 31 2009 19:34 GMT
#9
The main reason as to why no one replied to your "oh hey my build is good against mech!" is because it's obvious to everyone that hydra builds are better against mech than bio. That's like saying "hey, my 1hatch lair spire build is good against zerg".
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 19:41 GMT
#10
I realize that hydra are used against mech. What i am trying to say, is look at the strategy. With this, zerg can go on the offensive against mech, instead of going Day9 macro defensive style. It's just another way to play, another angle that zerg players now have against mech.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 31 2009 20:40 GMT
#11
Can you sum it up? You have range and attack moving into mines? That's it?
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 20:45 GMT
#12
If you need an overview- you can check out the thread- It details everything:

Here is the OP: (the three replays that i have just posted are imo better than the ones in the OP)


+ Show Spoiler +

On March 27 2009 14:39 Misrah wrote:
It's been a while TL. I haven't posted in the strategy section for quite awhile. While i was gone however, i have been doing some work. I am really going to try and cut down on how long this 'guide' is because hey, i realize that i am defiantly not good enough to be talking about starcraft for 3+ pages. (I will leave that to Day, Chill, Cloud, Osty ext.)

Getting on topic-

I have made a new cocaine build. That *hopefully* can have some use in play, and isn't a cheap trick you can use to kill noobs. As always comments, criticisms and the like are always appreciated.

My new Crank idea has a few interesting theories, and while i have tested them out in games (rep pack at the bottom of the page) I feel that someone that is far more knowledgeable than i can probably do more, and make a cleaner looking game than I. What i am trying to say is that, as usual i would love it if people would be willing to give this build a try, and better players especially- tell me what your thoughts are.

Zerg on Crank has an interesting style to it. I had been noticing recently that many terrans are now enjoying the mech game against zerg. With maps like destination, i have talked to numerous zerg players that say they have a problem dealing with mech, and or always say they 'hate' playing a mechanic terran. I have to say that this build is more slightly geared towards a mechanic terran, however i have used this against standard bio- and have had good results as well.

Now onto the build. I am trying to use an early game zerg unit (hydra) more effectively in ZvT play during the early game. Hydra have 4 range, and so do marines. With a range upgrade, hydra can get a +1 range bonus, making their range 5. I realize that marines have the same upgrade- however i have been noticing that terrans opt for stim first, and then getting +1 range. So i began to think about how i could use this.

Build order thoughts and ideas-

It has always seemed to me, that unless zerg wants to play a really aggressive 2 hatch build against terran- the only other way to play is 3 hatch. As you all know, 3 hatch is standard, and really when any zerg player goes 3 hatch, it is always best to try and not build more than a few lings. That way you can drone whore, and just build a sunken or two if you need them for defense.

What i don't like about this mindset- is that zerg doesn't have any type of 'halfway' builds. Zergling rushes are too all in, and a good terran will simply scv block and then you will quickly become economically behind. Going 2 hatch muta or 2 hatch lurker is also a very aggressive game, where your muta micro had to pull you into the lead, and lurkers are just too inferior IMO to really be tried against good opponents. I feel that tanks and or a few drop ships are all terran needs to thwart your lurker contain. Not to mention the fact that terran can simply scan your base, and see exactly what you are doing.

So i began asking myself, if there was a way to play a 'softer' type of game. I wanted to have my early game zerg be aggressive in the early game- yet still retain some economical advantage. I realize that what i just said is impossible, but i think that with small sacrifices to both, instead of either all in macro, or attack mode could be a useful tool in the zerg arsenal.

Why Hydralisks?

Hydra are by far my favorite unit that zerg has. I don't know why- but i have always enjoyed their sounds, and attack. I feel that in the early game, zerglings are inferior to marines. Now many say that so are hydra, because of M&M DPS (damage per second) output. While i do agree to the DPS argument to some extent, i think that in the early game, where there are few medics (and now with the resurgence of mech- barely any to speak of) hydra can do very very well against marines.

To do well against marines, i think that hydra need one huge advantage- Range. In my build, i have consistently upgraded hydra range before terran has theirs. This +1 range is actually quite useful- and i feel that zerg can capitalize on this. With range, and proper micro- hydra seem to be quite a match for marines.

Numbers
Hydra Cost: 75 min 25 gas
Marine Cost: 50 min

Hydra range: 4 (+1 with upgrade)
Marine range: 4 (+1 with upgrade)

Hydras kill marines in: 8 shots, so if you have a group of 8 you can be one shotting marines.

You need at least 4 drones mining minerals and 1/1.5 mining gas to pump hydra off of one hatch.

The Build
12 hatch
11 pool
two more drones (so 12 supply)
with your next 50 min, start your extractor
continue to make non stop drones form your hatch.
Once the extractor pops put 3 drones on gas untill 50 gas- and pull them off
Make your Den
When the pool pops make 1 set of zergllings
When your nat hatch pops pull 2-3 drones and send them to mine
14 pop get make a lord
Keep droning up, and with your next 300 min get your 3rd hatch. (i place it at my nat- however i feel that it could also be safe if it were placed at a third.)
once your den pops put 3 drones back on gas
*important* now divide your hatcheries. One hatch continually pumps hydralisk, while your other (natural hatch) pups drones.

Keep up this split build until you reach 150 gas- with your first 150 gas (while still pumping hydra) get hydra range (hot key G)

When your 3rd hatch pops- you can either make continuous hydra, or make drones. either way the build will still easily work.
With your next 100 gas go for you lair.
With your next 300 min go for your 4th hatch (at an expo)
Get your 2nd gas when your lair is completed

At this point in the build, you should have about 12 or more hydra (depending on how many hatcheries you relocated to hydra pumping.) As soon as your +1 range completes you should move to attack terran. Try and harass. You are simply trying to make them build bunkers. (if your playing destination- do nothing at all. Simply sit right before their bridge. ** Please watch my replays as they show the deadly effectiveness of your range hydras fighting marines in a choke.) I have still am unsure if you can out range a bunker with only 5 range. Range goons have 6- and can out range the bunker, only with proper micro. I have had mixed results. Make sure to try and micro your hydra, and have them shoot as a group (especially if there are medics present). Otherwise, if you feel that you do not want to attack- that can be fine as well. You are holding ground, and terran will think that you are doing some 2 hatch lurker build- and be quite happy to sit safe inside of his base.

If terran is going mech- you can simply waltz into his base and do what ever you feel. Tanks have a range of 7- so you can snipe a terran wall, if it is not ramped. If you rally your hydra to the front of his base, you will be able to contain terrans vult harass as well.

Once your lair has popped get a spire, and begin playing the game as if you were playing standard 3 hatch muta. You will have a very early 3rd, and should be able to supply a good amount of gas to your muta. I normally only get about 6/7 muta and then proceed to ravage his base. If i was careful with my hydra, and still have a group or 1.5 groups left over, and the terran is mechanic, i can run over them. The beauty is this- as soon as your muta are in his base, you can decide what you want to do with your first 200 gas. Get lurker upgrade? for the bio terran, or simply get hydra speed for the meching terran. Your choice.

Once you hit this point in the game, continue to play as you normally would in a standard game.

Variations
I am still experimenting, with mass hydra and queen broodling for a zerg counter to mech, using this opening. I still need more testing and games before i bring this forward- feel free to give any thoughts ext.

Replays

* Please note that i suck, and am only playing low grade terrans. I did have the chance to play a 'supposed' B+ terran, but i played a terrible game. Of course if this rep is requested i will provide it.*


http://www.mediafire.com/file/d2y0tymlbxm/HydraMuta.rep
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yctwziqgwmj/HydraMuta2.rep
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dmjgnudjtk5/HydraMuta3.rep
http://www.mediafire.com/file/z4q5mgtdwkh/HydraMuta4.rep
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zyr4ymwmjt2/HydraMuta5.rep
http://www.mediafire.com/file/myrmm1mnyzt/HydraMuta6.rep
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Itachii
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Poland12466 Posts
March 31 2009 20:53 GMT
#13
do hydras have legs?
La parole nous a été donnée pour déguiser notre pensée
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
March 31 2009 20:58 GMT
#14
On April 01 2009 05:53 Itachii wrote:
do hydras have legs?

nah man, you're confused now. zealots have legs.
Itachii
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Poland12466 Posts
March 31 2009 21:07 GMT
#15
On April 01 2009 05:58 niteReloaded wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2009 05:53 Itachii wrote:
do hydras have legs?

nah man, you're confused now. zealots have legs.

ok
La parole nous a été donnée pour déguiser notre pensée
Equaoh
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada427 Posts
March 31 2009 21:25 GMT
#16
Oh, oh, zerglings have legs, too!
What were we talking about again?
Odeur
Profile Joined October 2008
Taiwan58 Posts
March 31 2009 21:32 GMT
#17
marines too no? :o
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
March 31 2009 21:38 GMT
#18
I just watched the reps.

I love the thinking out of the box, and I very much liked the games.

The one thing I have to say is, wouldn't you get raped by bio builds considering that the only thing you rely on (when assuming he's going fantasy build) is the wall-in?

However, even if that's the only trigger you have, I must admit people are rarely gonna wall off and then go bio. There's not much point in doing it unless playing a Best Of X series.

Suggestion:
I would love to see you work out a strategy that would squeze in a very quick slow-ovie drop, or possibly a queen and do a fancy infest after you damage the CC.

Overall, I like the freshness of this.

P.S.
Itachii,
did you get it was a joke or should I work on my delivery?
I love that 'pretending to be a complete idiot who thinks he's smart' humor.

Flight of the Conchordes anyone?
KurtistheTurtle
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1966 Posts
March 31 2009 21:50 GMT
#19
On April 01 2009 03:00 Misrah wrote:
The thing that you need to remember while giong into a mine field with your hydras- ATTACK MOVE, DON'T MOVE!!

I don't believe you
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears."
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-31 22:12:53
March 31 2009 22:11 GMT
#20
Its best to upgrade just hydra speed and ovie speed and leave hydra range for when the terran is about to come out/when you have your 3rd up and running.

Range sucks when you have to be defensive with few hydras on distanced bases.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 22:48 GMT
#21
That is true cloud- but with range mines and mine fields are no problem. As you can see from those replays- when i am in Attack move, not a single mine hits the hydras. In this situation- wouldn't the range be better? Not only do you nullify the early game mind mine games, but now terrans can do nothing to stop you. Vultures melt against hydra. With this Zerg can finally stop terran wall in mech builds, and mech fast expand builds. There is simply no way for terran to do these greedy builds if you simply use this counter stratagy for zerg.

The only way that terran would be able to fast FE now is to either FD or get enough marines to fill 2-3 bunkers. At the very least, this is going to slow down their mid game push- and easily allow zerg to obtain map control, and to not have to worry about vulture harass.

Also about wall in- think of the ramifications this build could have on maps like Colosseum, Blue Storm, Troy, ext. With 5 range and that high Rate of Fire that hydra can bring to bear- you can simply cut down any wall terran can think of building. Any map that the terran cannot wall from a ramp, zerg will now be able to simply cut it down. I think that with the implement of this strategy, zerg can finally turn the tables when playing a mech based, fantasy, or 2 port wraith terran. No more guesswork, no more suicide lords, and no more false information. Our scouting will be clear.

As for the bio SK type- If you scout that the terran is going bio you can always transition to standard play. Just send your scout drone out when your nat is being built. If you see more than one rax just play standard.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-31 23:30:20
March 31 2009 23:29 GMT
#22
With slow hydras, if your 3rd is far from your main, speed vultures will give you hell, even slow vultures with a dropship will give you hell, and mines can delay that far expansion a lot.

I dont know how would you be going against minefields so early in the game :/

And FE attempts are only stopped with some serious low econ 2 hatch hydra attempt (or mass speedlings), for which range may be good yeah, but for one, you need to dedicate your whole early game to it, like clever ovie placement, cutting drones and there can be no mistake that he is opening with mech, but if you just build standard, hes gonna have gols before your hydra arrive + possibly a bunker and youre unlikely to break that with slow reinforcements.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
March 31 2009 23:36 GMT
#23
Cloud please watch the three replays in the OP of my blog. Perhaps that could shine some light on what i am trying to do? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on my build- because i will be the first to admit that you are by far a better SC player than me.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
April 01 2009 00:15 GMT
#24
On April 01 2009 07:48 Misrah wrote:
Vultures melt against hydra.


Since when does vultures melt :O Sorry just had to
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
April 01 2009 00:25 GMT
#25
Well on game 1, the terran build order was awful and he should always be able to place mines right outside your nat, since you werent rushing for hydras.

Second game, his build was bad as well but the ranged hydras didnt win you the game or even made a significant difference, there werent even mines outside the terrans base.

Third game, he was completely clueless as to what to do after placing the cc (your 3rd hatch should have been at an expo btw). He should have had at least about 6 gols by the time you attacked (notice that you attacked at about 8:30, way later that a muta build would have given you mutas)

I see nothing really special about your build other that being rather standard except that you get range instead of speed (and ovie speed), and you make a bit too many hydras for that timing. You should try molding this into a rush, which would probably work vs better opponents.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
April 01 2009 00:28 GMT
#26
And yes, as the other guy said, you take too much for granted after just seeing a wall, only one of those guys in the reps sent an early vulture, and you were lucky they werent any aggressive soon after that. Not everyone goes mech after walling.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
April 01 2009 01:03 GMT
#27
Ohh i see. I guess that i have to do more work. Thanks for your time and critique cloud. I will try and turn this into a rush of some sort possibly. Thanks again for your time cloud!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
April 01 2009 02:11 GMT
#28
On April 01 2009 10:03 Misrah wrote:
Ohh i see. I guess that i have to do more work. Thanks for your time and critique cloud. I will try and turn this into a rush of some sort possibly. Thanks again for your time cloud!

If range hydras can actually clear a significant minefield without an overlord you may actually be on to something here. For sure you'd have to leave a few hydra behind to defend vs vulture backstabs.

I'll try this if I get the oppurtunity.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
miseiler
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1389 Posts
April 01 2009 02:53 GMT
#29
On April 01 2009 06:25 Equaoh wrote:
Oh, oh, zerglings have legs, too!
What were we talking about again?


Goons have more legs than anything!

Cept maybe lurkers...hmm
"Jinro soo manly wearing only a T-Shirt while the Koreans freeze in their jackets" -- Double_O
"He's from Sweden, man. We have to fight polar bears on our way to school." -- Yusername
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
April 01 2009 08:53 GMT
#30
OH HEY WOW YEAH I DIDNT REALIZE THAT IF U MAKE SOMETHING WITH A BIGGER RANGE THAN MINES TRIGGER FROM THAT THEY COULD KILL THE MINES WITHOUT DYING

OH WAIT EVERY FUCKING ZERG EVER USES RANGED HYDRAS TO CLEAR MINEFIELDS

OH WAIT RANGED HYDRAS GET CUT THE FUCK DOWN BY TANKS AND GOLIATHS
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
April 01 2009 08:53 GMT
#31
GUYS I JUST FOUND A BRILLIANT COUNTER TO EVERYTHING

ITS CALLED "BUILD MORE STUFF" CHECK IT OUT
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
April 01 2009 08:55 GMT
#32
OH WAIT EVERYONE ALREADY DOES THAT WITH VARYING DEGREES OF SUCCESS
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-01 09:57:51
April 01 2009 09:57 GMT
#33
On April 01 2009 07:48 Misrah wrote:
If you see more than one rax just play standard.

That's the thing I questioned in the first place.

In either of those 3 games, all you saw was - nothing, a blocked entrance.

If I met you on ICC, I'd put an SCV on my ramp and go bio on your ass.
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
April 01 2009 22:50 GMT
#34
ouch
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
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