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So I really like playing on ICCUP, and if you remember my lat post, I have never won on ICCUP. So I tried to analyze when I play on ICCUP (as well as look at the replays) and I noticed that I only play on ICCUP during peak Korean times. I then looked at my match list and saw I've played 3 koreans out of 7 matches and only 2 Americans.
So I have decided I will change the time I play, but the argument comes in of getting better. If I change the time I play, I probably will not gain as much skill than if I stuck with the original time I played.
Ultimately my goal is to beat my friend Hyun Joon when I finally go to Korea, (and watch a broadcasted Starcraft match!) so playing against Koreans might be the best bet to improve.
My question to you all is, when do play on ICCup? If you have played during peak Korean time and non-peak Korean time, do you see a noticeable change in skill level? And do you do find yourself losing more during peak Korean times.
I want to get better, I know some of it attributes to my low APM, 120. I don't care if I go 0-100 on ICCUP as long as I'm getting better. Thanks everyone.
 
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There's definitely a noticeable and large difference when playing against koreans/foreigners in the C ranks. Before then I'm not sure, haven't really played enough to compare. From what I hear, the skill gap in higher ranks is even more obvious.
But in my experience koreans are generally much more mechanical players. So if they're weaker than you in macro/micro then they're often predictable and easy to beat. However foreigners tend to have awful macro but play more "tricky". Stuff like unexpectedly expanding when they have no chance of holding it.
Ideally you want to have very solid mechanics while still understanding the tricky stuff you can do to pull off a win against a stronger player.
Is this friend of yours much much better than you? If you can overtake his basic skills that's the easiest way to win, but if that's not possible then you should probably learn how to play like a faggot (or something).
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Well I've played him already and he beat me four times in a row. He's a Zerg and loves going 2 Hatch Muta and 9 pool. The games usually end once his Mutas take me down because my Turret placement is poor. I tend to go mech against Zerg nowadays because of my slow APM.
As for playing like a faggot, I wouldn't get the satisfaction. I want to beat him in a straight up game. He is beatable, me and my friend beat him 2v1, so its possible.
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Korean times are harder.. I can get C level playing foreigner times but this season i have been playing at almost strictly korean times and have only been able to get D+/C-. Playing a korean C- is like playing a foreigner C or C+, if that korean also plays at only korean times.
if you are struggling at those times switch over to foreigner times. I don't think you are gunna learn that much if you are getting totally crushed against D level koreans. When you get better move back to korean time to help improve your skill
Playing during foriegner time is like running on a treadmill. Playing during korean time is like running on that same treadmill with incline set all the way up and having a black dildo in your ass.... its much harder ^^ glglglg
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If you want some really fast help with getting better at BW and if you're willing to switch to protoss, I can help you maybe next week or the week after. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.
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There is a HUGE skill gap between korean and foreign times. Korean level players are so much stronger then american players to the point where someone who plays C/C+ Level at korean hours is leagues better then someone who plays foreigner C/C+.
If your "goal" is to get better then by all means play during korean hours. The thing is with many players trying to get better the problem isn't their opponents its just their drive. If you can play repeatedly and lose to koreans and continue playing good games then do it, but if you get frustrated easily then start with foreigners. You say that " want to get better, I know some of it attributes to my low APM, 120. I don't care if I go 0-100 on ICCUP as long as I'm getting better." but theres a big difference in saying that and meaning it. You basically say it yourself that this is not true, " I tend to go mech against Zerg nowadays because of my slow APM. ". If you care about getting better then get better, don't use build orders or play times as a crutch.
To nytefish. I really disagree with what you are saying. Koreans are better then foreigners at macro/micro because they practice and are better. To try and say that koreans are "easy to beat and predictable" is stupid because koreans easily play smarter then most foreign players. If by "tricky" you mean "cheesy" then yeah you're right, foreigners are way more cheesy. Hiding expansions is a crutch to go on if you know your opponent is better. Foreigners are WORSE for this reason, they constantly try to abuse luck and build order factors instead of just trying to get better. Playing against people who constantly abuse stupid things can help you learn how to play safer, but it will never improve you mechanically as once you deny his stupid expansion or stop his all in you're just sitting there with your dick in your hand until you can roll him over.
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I play on iCCup whenever I have time, and so I sometimes play during Korean time, sometimes I don't, etc. I'm still struggling around the D+ area, and maybe that's why but I really don't feel that much of a difference between Korean time and other times yet. Korean D/D+ players are still just D+ players in the end to me.
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On February 18 2009 00:15 petzergling wrote:
There is a HUGE skill gap between korean and foreign times. Korean level players are so much stronger then american players to the point where someone who plays C/C+ Level at korean hours is leagues better then someone who plays foreigner C/C+.
If your "goal" is to get better then by all means play during korean hours. The thing is with many players trying to get better the problem isn't their opponents its just their drive. If you can play repeatedly and lose to koreans and continue playing good games then do it, but if you get frustrated easily then start with foreigners. You say that " want to get better, I know some of it attributes to my low APM, 120. I don't care if I go 0-100 on ICCUP as long as I'm getting better." but theres a big difference in saying that and meaning it. You basically say it yourself that this is not true, " I tend to go mech against Zerg nowadays because of my slow APM. ". If you care about getting better then get better, don't use build orders or play times as a crutch.
To nytefish. I really disagree with what you are saying. Koreans are better then foreigners at macro/micro because they practice and are better. To try and say that koreans are "easy to beat and predictable" is stupid because koreans easily play smarter then most foreign players. If by "tricky" you mean "cheesy" then yeah you're right, foreigners are way more cheesy. Hiding expansions is a crutch to go on if you know your opponent is better. Foreigners are WORSE for this reason, they constantly try to abuse luck and build order factors instead of just trying to get better. Playing against people who constantly abuse stupid things can help you learn how to play safer, but it will never improve you mechanically as once you deny his stupid expansion or stop his all in you're just sitting there with your dick in your hand until you can roll him over.
Nytefish didn't say that, he said Korean players tend to be more mechanical, and that if you are also mechanical, and are able to beat them with mechanics, then you can really easily beat them. He's simply saying that Korean players tend to be less creative, so if you are just as strong as them mechanically, they're very predictable and they won't win as much based solely off of their mechanics.
Speaking of which, I just played a Korean zerg D vs D+, and he is 15-5, not great stats, but his hotkeys are crazy and I thought he was quite good. This just goes to show that the level of competition has gone up significantly (I was B in season 6, but I have not played 1v1 since then, I'm rusty, and the competition is like 50x harder now that it was then - no way I'd get B atm)
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On the lowest rank I don`t really notice a difference in Koreans or foreigners (not that I am really paying attention since I usually beat them all easily), however from the C ranks or so and above the Koreans always tend to be better. I can barely hold my own at the B level playing Koreans, however when I play during foreign times I find it way easier. (tho of course there are good foreigners also)
To put it this way, a 200-200 Korean at B is usually better than a 60-15 foreigner at B.
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Romania3955 Posts
Well, even most D/D+ players know a lot of build now, know some counters and have a pretty good decision making.
So your main problem might be your apm, but don't try to get it higher by spamming, it's going to grow as you play and get accustomed macro-ing, then macro-ing while paying attention at the map and while fighting
You could just try to play someone with about the same skill as you and you will evolve faster that way. It's good to keep yourself motivated even if you never win, but at your skill level, even 1 win in 10-20 games is a pretty good motivation factor. Also, korean hours are just ruthless, if you can try getting some games at non-koreans times you will notice the difference.
Anyway, good luck on improving, it's pretty hard at the beginning.
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On February 18 2009 00:27 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Nytefish didn't say that, he said Korean players tend to be more mechanical, and that if you are also mechanical, and are able to beat them with mechanics, then you can really easily beat them. He's simply saying that Korean players tend to be less creative, so if you are just as strong as them mechanically, they're very predictable and they won't win as much based solely off of their mechanics.
Really though, read what you are typing bro
so if you are just as strong as them mechanically they won't win as much based solely off of their mechanics.
That doesn't make any sense as it is true for any player in any matchup in any game. If you are saying that foreigners with shitty mechanics win more often then koreans with shitty mechanics because foreigners cheese and koreans are trying to improve then yeah thats true but I think its something that makes foreigners worse.
If you are trying to say that foreigners somehow have better strategy and overcome their mechanical disadvantage by playing "smarter" (no going 9 pool speed vrs terran or hiding expos in TvP is not playing "smart" or "creative") that is totally false. Koreans play easily just as smart if not smarter then foreigners at their level. They aren't robots who don't know how to respond to things, but they typically respond much better to normal play then to crazy unorthodox strategies. To say that koreans respond worse to crazy strategies then foreigners do would be a false statement.
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Koreans are better at executing unorthodox builds than foreigners from my experience, even if foreigners may choose to use unorthodox builds more often.
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Yes, theres a pretty damn big change in skill level, for all the ranks. On holidays i sometimes tried to stay up late and start playing at 2 am, but being sleep deprived just helps making you more pissed off that you just cant hit the next damn rank so i didnt do it often.
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On February 18 2009 00:15 petzergling wrote:
To nytefish. I really disagree with what you are saying. Koreans are better then foreigners at macro/micro because they practice and are better. To try and say that koreans are "easy to beat and predictable" is stupid because koreans easily play smarter then most foreign players. If by "tricky" you mean "cheesy" then yeah you're right, foreigners are way more cheesy. Hiding expansions is a crutch to go on if you know your opponent is better.
Foreigners are WORSE for this reason, they constantly try to abuse luck and build order factors instead of just trying to get better. Playing against people who constantly abuse stupid things can help you learn how to play safer, but it will never improve you mechanically as once you deny his stupid expansion or stop his all in you're just sitting there with your dick in your hand until you can roll him over.
The second part I agree with, I never said anything about foreigners' "style" being as good as koreans. I was just pointing out a difference I noticed.
For the first part I think you misinterpreted what I said. I'm specifically referring to my own experiences and I didn't say anything close to "koreans are easy to beat and predictable".
And I avoided the word "cheesy" because everyone's got a different definition for cheese. I'm not really talking about BBS or 4pool, but the the contrasting attitudes. A foreigner is more likely to play games thinking "what can I do to beat this guy". Whilst a korean is more likely to be playing to increase his overall ability to win games in the future thus play more "standard".
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On February 18 2009 01:17 koreasilver wrote:
Koreans are better at executing unorthodox builds than foreigners from my experience, even if foreigners may choose to use unorthodox builds more often.
That would fall under superior mechanics. To be able to execute whatever build order or strategy you choose (which macro and micro both collectively fall under) the most effectively is what having solid mechanics is.
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Playing at peak korean times is always more exciting and fun for me personally. I've gotten amazing games at C/C+ ranks. Some VERY good gamers and very fun games. There is almost an entire rank or two difference in the feel of games when you're playing against strong koreans than random guys who got to C in like 300 games and aren't nearly as good.
It's funny I'll play during the afternoon for me and win 4 or 5 games. Then I'll lose 6 straight during korean times late at night falling right back. It's almost to the point where I've got 2 iccup ranks- a korean hours rank and a non-korean hours rank...
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is for added fun make sure you're playing current courage maps during peak korean hours, (medusa, desti, colo)
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Is this also true for Bnet? I play on US East at around 2 or 3AM EST and everyone there seems to be Korean. I do notice that there is a lower frequency of "true noobs" at these hours but is there a skill gap between average players?
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koreans are so aggressive that i can't micro for shit.
i have about 220 apm, and holy shit i feel like i'm doing 300+ apm, but no, it's the same shit. it's just me panicking because how frustrating it is to play an aggressive korean.
last night i played 2-3 koreans. one was an ex- A rank, and the other one had only 2-3 losses at C. man was it so fucking hard.
i felt like a complete n00b. i need to be more calm, but i can't when they are so aggressive.
i might as well play protoss. 1a2a3a. no high apm necessary.
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EPT
