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Catching Hackers 2.1 - Page 2

Blogs > flag
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-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 04:22 GMT
#21
On December 31 2008 13:15 food wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 13:08 SonuvBob wrote:
I think you need to check each individual build command with a * to see if it's on minerals/gas/unbuildable terrain. Most *'s will be false positives.


he says that if you not hacking you wont get those actions recorded, so when i was placing my hatchery at an unbuildable terrain( which happens a lot) it did get recorded. Check any known zerg replays, im sure everyone has this. In his opinion tho, this only gets recorded if youre hacking, which seems untrue so far, thats my point.

edit: ok sec ill link the replay in a sec


I just tested this and it didn't show the actions in the replay... -_-
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
December 31 2008 04:23 GMT
#22
Me too, tried building a hatchery in the middle of luna, on minerals, on top of an enemy hatch, etc, not a single build command in the rep.
Administrator
food
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1951 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 04:27:27
December 31 2008 04:23 GMT
#23
well look up the replay i posted and tell me what my actions marked as * are then


action 3995
4005
4560 - for extractor


he has many too, supply, bunker etc, but check mine
Can someone ban this guy please? FA?
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 04:27:49
December 31 2008 04:26 GMT
#24
They're whatever bwchart marks with a *, dunno how it determines them. The point is that trying to build on minerals/unbuildable terrain only shows up with Oblivion, so if you can find one of those (which would be among the *s), it means hack.

Seems like finding them without an automated tool would be really hard.
Administrator
food
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1951 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 04:28:20
December 31 2008 04:28 GMT
#25
see the action that i just listed, i believe i was building a hatch/extractor, nothing else.
Can someone ban this guy please? FA?
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 04:28 GMT
#26
On December 31 2008 13:23 food wrote:
well look up the replay i posted and tell me what my actions marked as * are then


I just checked a number of them on python and none of the ones I checked so far are on unbuildable terrain, therefore they are not hack detections, you must have had a unit in the way or something.

It's only a detection of a hack when it was on unbuildable terrain.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 04:30 GMT
#27
On December 31 2008 13:28 food wrote:
see the action that i just listed, i believe i was building a hatch/extractor, nothing else.


As I said, the hatch one (one of the ones I checked) was not on unbuildable terrain so there is no hack there, and the one with the extractor doesn't have a star...
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
food
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1951 Posts
December 31 2008 04:30 GMT
#28
oh shit, maybe it does work then^^
Can someone ban this guy please? FA?
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 04:32 GMT
#29
On December 31 2008 13:30 food wrote:
oh shit, maybe it does work then^^


'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 04:36:10
December 31 2008 04:32 GMT
#30
Ah, *s normally come from sending multiple build commands when you have the money, where only the last one, if any, actually results in a building (select an scv and spam bsclickbsclickbsclickbsclickbsclick)
Administrator
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 04:38 GMT
#31
On December 31 2008 13:32 SonuvBob wrote:
Ah, *s normally come from sending multiple build commands when you have the money, where only the last one, if any, actually results in a building (select an scv and spam bsclickbsclickbsclickbsclickbsclick)


Aha, cool to know. I wonder what the occasional ?'s come from (they're in the same column as the *'s). Who actually made bwchart? It'd be nice to be able to ask the creator questions about things in it that were never documented
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
December 31 2008 04:45 GMT
#32
http://bwchart.teamliquid.net/us/news010404.php
Administrator
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
December 31 2008 04:50 GMT
#33
why the fuck would you want to build something on terrain you haven't seen yet? that's just plain retarded...
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 04:51 GMT
#34
On December 31 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:
why the fuck would you want to build something on terrain you haven't seen yet? that's just plain retarded...


I don't think it's whether you can see it or not, this is whether it's unbuildable terrain or not, like if you try to build a building and you misclick and hit a cliff or ramp, or if you go to build your assimilator and you miss the gas geyser, or if you go to build something like a cannon and you hit the minerals instead of hitting the ground.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
fonger
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United Kingdom1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 04:58:36
December 31 2008 04:57 GMT
#35
On December 31 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:
why the fuck would you want to build something on terrain you haven't seen yet? that's just plain retarded...

whoops nvm
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 05:09:57
December 31 2008 05:04 GMT
#36
Ah yeah, I guess gas would be the best thing to look for.

I'm not sure if *s are the only actions you'd have to look at, bwchart doesn't * all the failed build commands. So we need a program that checks the location for all non-refinery/assim/extractor build commands against mins/gas/invalid terrain (taking into account the size of the building) and checks all refinery/assim/extractor build commands to make sure they're over a geyser.
Administrator
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
December 31 2008 07:30 GMT
#37
Alrite with the 30% estimation we can make the appropriate models in how many replays would you have to test on average before you can catch a * mark.

Suppose we're dealing with a bunch of replays of a suspecting hacker, and each of them has a .3 chance of showing a * mark. How many replays do we need to check, on average, before we can catch someone?
This is a "geometric distribution", so we're looking at the expected value of the geometric distribution. Which is:
1/0.3 = 3.333

So this is a very powerful tool in catching them, as on average, you only need to check 3-4 replays
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
MasterOfChaos
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Germany2896 Posts
December 31 2008 10:31 GMT
#38
So there are three checks if a building can be created:
1) In the GUI before the command is recorded
2) At the time the command is received
3) At the time the unit arrives at the target location
Only the second one indicates hack. And only if in the time between 1) and 2) nothing changed to block the build.

Do I understand this correctly? And does this also catch hackers using oblivion in safemode which deactivates all features zynastor considers detectable. And I guess build anywhere would be considered detectable.
LiquipediaOne eye to kill. Two eyes to live.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
December 31 2008 14:51 GMT
#39
Keep fighting the good fight. I love you.
Moderator
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
December 31 2008 15:04 GMT
#40
On December 31 2008 16:30 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Alrite with the 30% estimation we can make the appropriate models in how many replays would you have to test on average before you can catch a * mark.

Suppose we're dealing with a bunch of replays of a suspecting hacker, and each of them has a .3 chance of showing a * mark. How many replays do we need to check, on average, before we can catch someone?
This is a "geometric distribution", so we're looking at the expected value of the geometric distribution. Which is:
1/0.3 = 3.333

So this is a very powerful tool in catching them, as on average, you only need to check 3-4 replays


It's not about just finding a * mark, it's about finding a * mark that is due to unbuildable terrain as opposed to other buildings/units being in the way.

Jeez I hope flag having released this method doesn't create a slew of people checking replays and accusing others of hacking because their build actions have a * next to them
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
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