• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:54
CEST 19:54
KST 02:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection5Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June0Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection My starcraft 2 changes SCFusion - WoL, HotS & LotV Build Order Optimizer TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes?
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review 14k games analyzed: Cross Spawn Nexus first good? Tesagi Viewer - A new era of replay watching BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck? Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How cold is too cold to be outdoors?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4566 users

Wtf is reification?

Blogs > Hippopotamus
Post a Reply
Hippopotamus
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1914 Posts
December 08 2008 05:55 GMT
#1
Seriously, I ran into it the other day and it still makes no sense to me. I read the wiki write up AND all the links it referenced. It makes some sense, but I don't understand it at all. I'll give an example context:

+ Show Spoiler +
As the reactionary scientists failed to establish valid biophysical explanations for social inequality by measuring skulls both on the outside (using calipers and rulers) and the inside (using mustard seed and lead shot), they moved into the realm of measuring “the content of brains by intelligence testing” (23, revised edition). It is here that the error that perhaps receives the bulk of Gould’s attention is to be found: reification—the process of treating as a real entity something that is in fact an abstract concept. Cyril Burt and current advocates of the notion that intelligence is literally a one-dimensional feature of the brain that is measurable by psychometric tests are guilty of reifying their own constructions. Those guilty of reifying IQ argue that there is a general underlying intellectual ability in each of us, g, that is measured reasonably well by IQ tests, in spite of the evidence suggesting that g is a product of the tests themselves, a statistical creation, not a genuine mental attribute.

In an unflinchingly rational manner, Gould devastates this “IQ as indicator of general intelligence” interpretation by showing it to be a creation of the statistical procedures used and the a priori convictions of the researchers. The general intelligence factor emerges from factor analysis of a variety of mental tests. Factor analysis is a statistical procedure that attempts to explain the covariance among variables (various mental tests in this case) by extracting one or a few factors that can account for the observed inter-correlations (individuals’ scores on different tests tend to be positively correlated with one another—i.e., people who do well on one type of test tend to do well on other types). IQ proponents have long argued that only one factor is necessary to explain observed correlations among a variety of mental tests, which they take to indicate the existence of a general intelligence that is an actual characteristic of the brain. However, as Gould explains, factor analysis does not work magic; it is entirely based on the observed correlations among tests. The belief that a factor extracted via factor analysis is a real entity is based on the heroic assumption that the variables under analysis (performance on various mental tests in this case) are connected by an underlying causal regime (stemming from a feature of the brain). This assumption is not and cannot be established by statistical methods alone and is only valid to the extent that correlation is indicative of causation. Although determining correlation is necessary for establishing a causal relationship among variables, it is not sufficient. Factor analysis alone simply cannot adjudicate the matter of causality, nor establish whether a factor corresponds with a real entity.


I think...he makes a distinction between real and what I take as 'un-real'. So the problem is we say the 'un-real' concept is a real thing... so in bigger words:

Those guilty of reifying IQ argue that there is a general underlying intellectual ability in each of us, g, that is measured reasonably well by IQ tests, in spite of the evidence suggesting that g is a product of the tests themselves, a statistical creation, not a genuine mental attribute.


But I don't get it... what's the significance of this fallacy? How could it be any other way?

***
Descent
Profile Joined January 2008
1244 Posts
December 08 2008 06:02 GMT
#2
I think it's just conceptualizing abstract ideas in a way that makes it easier for humans to understand. I think the theme from that excerpt about IQ is that IQ is a standard used to measure and quantify the abstract quantity of any given person's intelligence. The notion of IQ is used despite the fact that it may or may not be an accurate representation and/or measure of intelligence.
「 Dream & Future 」 ※ 「 STX SouL 」
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
December 08 2008 06:05 GMT
#3
God?
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21550 Posts
December 08 2008 06:10 GMT
#4
It's saying IQ is just an abstraction of intelligence, so it's a fallacy to use IQ to try to prove something about actual intelligence.
Administrator
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
December 08 2008 06:11 GMT
#5
just as confusing as that one quote from that savior interview :/
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-08 06:16:41
December 08 2008 06:15 GMT
#6
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.
Do you really want chat rooms?
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3702 Posts
December 08 2008 06:23 GMT
#7
On December 08 2008 15:15 fight_or_flight wrote:
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.

Fairly good example of it, I think. Happens even more in economics though
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
Descent
Profile Joined January 2008
1244 Posts
December 08 2008 06:25 GMT
#8
On December 08 2008 15:15 fight_or_flight wrote:
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.

Well put~ I think using the equation as something more than a model is the fallacy though, i.e. from the very beginning. A fallacy shouldn't rely on whether or not it's been proven to be false, as temporally, if something's a falsehood yet hasn't been uncovered to be a falsehood at a given time doesn't change the fact that it was false from the start.
「 Dream & Future 」 ※ 「 STX SouL 」
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
December 08 2008 07:18 GMT
#9
Another example that perhaps may or may not precisely fit the model but is an example is the strength of any Starcraft army. Strength correlates with size, unit type and unit strength, but if we turned those into an aggregate number (akin to Statisticians taking test scores and turning them into IQ percentiles) an army of strength score of 180 would not always be better than a army with a strength score of 179. We tried to make something a real entity (army strength, measured by army strength score) which is, in fact, an abstract concept (army strength is a pretty abstract concept).
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-08 08:21:44
December 08 2008 08:21 GMT
#10
On December 08 2008 15:25 Descent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2008 15:15 fight_or_flight wrote:
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.

Well put~ I think using the equation as something more than a model is the fallacy though, i.e. from the very beginning. A fallacy shouldn't rely on whether or not it's been proven to be false, as temporally, if something's a falsehood yet hasn't been uncovered to be a falsehood at a given time doesn't change the fact that it was false from the start.

That's not the way it works though...

[image loading]


(ie the equations are infallible)
Do you really want chat rooms?
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
16:00
FSL s11 TeamLeague: ASH vs ST
Freeedom36
Liquipedia
Grudge Match
16:00
Best of 7
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm
Discussion
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
15:00
Season Finals: Group Stage 1
uThermal2037
TaKeTV 395
SteadfastSC297
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
uThermal 2037
SteadfastSC 267
LamboSC2 103
BRAT_OK 67
sc2solar 58
trigger 44
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26743
Calm 7549
EffOrt 880
Hyuk 499
ggaemo 299
sorry 30
Rock 28
yabsab 24
GoRush 19
IntoTheRainbow 18
[ Show more ]
Sexy 13
Dota 2
Gorgc6354
Counter-Strike
fl0m9046
byalli567
zeus315
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King103
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor412
MindelVK10
Other Games
gofns19579
tarik_tv9229
Grubby2933
FrodaN2370
Mlord607
B2W.Neo404
KnowMe237
Hui .87
OptimusSC212
UpATreeSC1
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV876
gamesdonequick663
BasetradeTV37
StarCraft 2
angryscii 23
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 21
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach54
• Azhi_Dahaki32
• 80smullet 7
• FirePhoenix5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota260
League of Legends
• Jankos2060
Other Games
• WagamamaTV454
• Shiphtur161
• tFFMrPink 13
Upcoming Events
OSC
3h 7m
MaxPax vs YoungYakov
Krystianer vs Shameless
GgMaChine vs Creature
LetaleX vs MiniZergUA
ReBellioN vs TBD
ArT vs HiGhDrA
Nicoract vs Azura
GSL
14h 7m
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
Patches Events
19h 7m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
21h 7m
BSL
1d 1h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
OSC
1d 6h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Classic vs Lambo
Clem vs Maru
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.