• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:58
CEST 22:58
KST 05:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!10Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)75Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format16[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!18
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" [D] Wireframe Casting Removed
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War HomeStory Cup 29
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion HORROR STARCRAFT MOVIE BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ How Famous was FlaSh before his Debut? screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend! Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs Fighting Spirit mining rates Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! General RTS Discussion Thread Path of Exile ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Role of Gaming on Mental Hea…
TrAiDoS
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5995 users

Wtf is reification?

Blogs > Hippopotamus
Post a Reply
Hippopotamus
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1914 Posts
December 08 2008 05:55 GMT
#1
Seriously, I ran into it the other day and it still makes no sense to me. I read the wiki write up AND all the links it referenced. It makes some sense, but I don't understand it at all. I'll give an example context:

+ Show Spoiler +
As the reactionary scientists failed to establish valid biophysical explanations for social inequality by measuring skulls both on the outside (using calipers and rulers) and the inside (using mustard seed and lead shot), they moved into the realm of measuring “the content of brains by intelligence testing” (23, revised edition). It is here that the error that perhaps receives the bulk of Gould’s attention is to be found: reification—the process of treating as a real entity something that is in fact an abstract concept. Cyril Burt and current advocates of the notion that intelligence is literally a one-dimensional feature of the brain that is measurable by psychometric tests are guilty of reifying their own constructions. Those guilty of reifying IQ argue that there is a general underlying intellectual ability in each of us, g, that is measured reasonably well by IQ tests, in spite of the evidence suggesting that g is a product of the tests themselves, a statistical creation, not a genuine mental attribute.

In an unflinchingly rational manner, Gould devastates this “IQ as indicator of general intelligence” interpretation by showing it to be a creation of the statistical procedures used and the a priori convictions of the researchers. The general intelligence factor emerges from factor analysis of a variety of mental tests. Factor analysis is a statistical procedure that attempts to explain the covariance among variables (various mental tests in this case) by extracting one or a few factors that can account for the observed inter-correlations (individuals’ scores on different tests tend to be positively correlated with one another—i.e., people who do well on one type of test tend to do well on other types). IQ proponents have long argued that only one factor is necessary to explain observed correlations among a variety of mental tests, which they take to indicate the existence of a general intelligence that is an actual characteristic of the brain. However, as Gould explains, factor analysis does not work magic; it is entirely based on the observed correlations among tests. The belief that a factor extracted via factor analysis is a real entity is based on the heroic assumption that the variables under analysis (performance on various mental tests in this case) are connected by an underlying causal regime (stemming from a feature of the brain). This assumption is not and cannot be established by statistical methods alone and is only valid to the extent that correlation is indicative of causation. Although determining correlation is necessary for establishing a causal relationship among variables, it is not sufficient. Factor analysis alone simply cannot adjudicate the matter of causality, nor establish whether a factor corresponds with a real entity.


I think...he makes a distinction between real and what I take as 'un-real'. So the problem is we say the 'un-real' concept is a real thing... so in bigger words:

Those guilty of reifying IQ argue that there is a general underlying intellectual ability in each of us, g, that is measured reasonably well by IQ tests, in spite of the evidence suggesting that g is a product of the tests themselves, a statistical creation, not a genuine mental attribute.


But I don't get it... what's the significance of this fallacy? How could it be any other way?

***
Descent
Profile Joined January 2008
1244 Posts
December 08 2008 06:02 GMT
#2
I think it's just conceptualizing abstract ideas in a way that makes it easier for humans to understand. I think the theme from that excerpt about IQ is that IQ is a standard used to measure and quantify the abstract quantity of any given person's intelligence. The notion of IQ is used despite the fact that it may or may not be an accurate representation and/or measure of intelligence.
「 Dream & Future 」 ※ 「 STX SouL 」
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
December 08 2008 06:05 GMT
#3
God?
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21550 Posts
December 08 2008 06:10 GMT
#4
It's saying IQ is just an abstraction of intelligence, so it's a fallacy to use IQ to try to prove something about actual intelligence.
Administrator
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
December 08 2008 06:11 GMT
#5
just as confusing as that one quote from that savior interview :/
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-08 06:16:41
December 08 2008 06:15 GMT
#6
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.
Do you really want chat rooms?
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3702 Posts
December 08 2008 06:23 GMT
#7
On December 08 2008 15:15 fight_or_flight wrote:
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.

Fairly good example of it, I think. Happens even more in economics though
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
Descent
Profile Joined January 2008
1244 Posts
December 08 2008 06:25 GMT
#8
On December 08 2008 15:15 fight_or_flight wrote:
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.

Well put~ I think using the equation as something more than a model is the fallacy though, i.e. from the very beginning. A fallacy shouldn't rely on whether or not it's been proven to be false, as temporally, if something's a falsehood yet hasn't been uncovered to be a falsehood at a given time doesn't change the fact that it was false from the start.
「 Dream & Future 」 ※ 「 STX SouL 」
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
December 08 2008 07:18 GMT
#9
Another example that perhaps may or may not precisely fit the model but is an example is the strength of any Starcraft army. Strength correlates with size, unit type and unit strength, but if we turned those into an aggregate number (akin to Statisticians taking test scores and turning them into IQ percentiles) an army of strength score of 180 would not always be better than a army with a strength score of 179. We tried to make something a real entity (army strength, measured by army strength score) which is, in fact, an abstract concept (army strength is a pretty abstract concept).
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-08 08:21:44
December 08 2008 08:21 GMT
#10
On December 08 2008 15:25 Descent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2008 15:15 fight_or_flight wrote:
Seems to me like it happens in physics all the time. For example, one physicist finds that an equation fits perfectly to some data he has measured. Then what eventually happens is that other physicists treat the equation, the mathematical model, as if it was the phenomena itself, forgetting the fact that it is not real, it is just a model, and if someone can prove the original experiment to be flawed in some way, then their house of cards crashes down.

However, when they ignore the newfound insights into the original experiment (showing it is wrong), and continue to use the equation, then they fall victim to this fallacy.

Well put~ I think using the equation as something more than a model is the fallacy though, i.e. from the very beginning. A fallacy shouldn't rely on whether or not it's been proven to be false, as temporally, if something's a falsehood yet hasn't been uncovered to be a falsehood at a given time doesn't change the fact that it was false from the start.

That's not the way it works though...

[image loading]


(ie the equations are infallible)
Do you really want chat rooms?
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 2m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 779
Railgan 143
BRAT_OK 49
KnowMe 39
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2538
Soulkey 165
ggaemo 88
Counter-Strike
kRYSTAL_17
Other Games
tarik_tv5296
Grubby3225
Beastyqt611
Liquid`Hasu471
shahzam470
UpATreeSC273
ArmadaUGS126
SteadfastSC54
Trikslyr39
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 10
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 37
• Pr0nogo 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade812
Other Games
• imaqtpie1002
• Shiphtur407
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
3h 2m
The PondCast
13h 2m
Kung Fu Cup
14h 2m
OSC
1d 3h
CrankTV Team League
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Serral vs SHIN
herO vs Solar
[ Show More ]
Online Event
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs ByuN
Rogue vs Lambo
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E3

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
Proleague 2026-07-21
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.