take a look at this game, its july vs go.go in proleague, 22nd of this month. ive seen fantasy do it, and i havent been playing iccup as of late and i dont play z so im not sure if people are actually doing thie build all throughout iccup in terms of zvt but man, wtf? go.go actually uses it. and to ...
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his success, he won. july doesnt know how to counter it like ggplay either.

guess we cant blame ggplay. or maybe that july was being TOO aggressive with last attack....?

Hot_Bid

Braavos36387 Posts

October 23 2008 20:43 GMT

its not fantasy's build, this is 1 base valk into expo and standard mech, theres no vulture drop either, hence why july was pretty ahead and threw it all away with a bad attack

its more like just the standard valk --> mech we've seen on maps like plasma (before the osl semi between ggplay/fantasy)

Raithed

China7078 Posts

October 23 2008 20:48 GMT

well in a sense, it is, its not the same order and i shouldnt really emphasized that it IS his build but the way go.go played about it made it seem so alike fantasy's. same goes for the bisu build(here we go again right?) there are MANY variations, we know that standard bisu is forge FE corsair/dt but one could go corsair reaver/templar harass kind of build/game. lets say you did not watch this entire game and you just skipped into the middle, it is nostalgic to fantasy vs ggplay's game(s).

fusionsdf

Canada15390 Posts

October 23 2008 20:49 GMT

I dont think the build HAS to have a vulture drop to fit into the same category as fantasy's build

its still a valkyrie transition into mech, just a different variant

XCetron

5226 Posts

October 23 2008 20:53 GMT

Yea look at bisubuild.

ScarFace

United States1175 Posts

October 23 2008 21:06 GMT

Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.

I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol.

clazziquai

6685 Posts

October 23 2008 21:08 GMT

I think it's just like Bisu or Flash build. Nothing is exact, people who know the build best (Bisu or Flash in this case) adapt to what the opponent does.

Chill

Calgary25990 Posts

October 23 2008 21:17 GMT

On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote:
Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.

I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol.

Yea, THAT'S why you switched.

rei

United States3594 Posts

October 23 2008 21:27 GMT

On October 24 2008 05:43 Hot_Bid wrote:
its not fantasy's build, this is 1 base valk into expo and standard mech, theres no vulture drop either, hence why july was pretty ahead and threw it all away with a bad attack

its more like just the standard valk --> mech we've seen on maps like plasma (before the osl semi between ggplay/fantasy)

I think it is the fantasy build, it has all the element of a fantasy build in the beginning. The divergent we see from the fantasy build at that point was Go.go's adaptation to what julyzerg is doing.

He scouted and saw it clearly that he will not be able to stop julyzerg's fast mutaliks harrase if he in fact waste any more gas and minerals on the mine research and dropship. So he built goliaths and valks to defend the fast mutalisk. As you can see in that game by the way julyzerg went into his base he had 3 goliaths and 1 valk, if he expanded and made that vulture drop in july's main he would have 200 less gas. On top of that he has to defend both his building expansion and his main with out turrets.

Go go knew what he was doing in that game, but he was not fantasy, i bet fantasy would have a different counter, Julyzerg should have that game down after he obliterated go go in the middle and took control. But he fucked up one fight and that was it for him.

Raithed

China7078 Posts

October 23 2008 21:31 GMT

#10

lmao imo it shouldnt be for you to switch a race JUST because of a build, what, zergs switched to another race because of bisu's build? i know a lot of people did, and called it imbalanced, now its standard and everyone can counter it. instead of zvp its now zvt and fantasy's build(yes there are many variants) just dominate zergs right now because they dont have the experience in dealing with it. remember boxer vs savior in monty hall and boxer did this build MINUS THE VALKYRIES, thus i wont say its "fantasy's build" at all. its just that even then, a lot of players(zerg) have a hard time dealing with this. when jaedong went up against it vs flash on katrina, he didnt really know either. yeah, he macro'd well and defended well but generally, zergs really dont know many weaknesses of this build except its lack of mobility.

when fantasy used this, after 1-2 days, we saw multiple threads about "how can zerg beat mech" and shit like that. usually mutaling > this build but as valkyrie numbers skyrocket(same for critical mass of corsairs), theyre immune to scourge/mutalisks and this forces zerg to go the hydra route. i want this as a blog discussion and not a "strategy" because i dont want threads to truncate each other.

Zuries

United Kingdom156 Posts

October 23 2008 21:43 GMT

#11

hes got things that only attack air its clearly the bisu build.

Senx

Sweden5901 Posts

October 23 2008 21:46 GMT

#12

Lets ask combat-ex

ScarFace

United States1175 Posts

October 23 2008 21:59 GMT

#13

On October 24 2008 06:17 Chill wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yea, THAT'S why you switched.

Yup. I was already like 0-15 against terran, I dont need MORE trouble in that regard.

Zoler

Sweden6339 Posts

October 23 2008 21:59 GMT

#14

Uhm, that wasnt Fanatsy build. The Fantasy build ONLY, read ONLY, works if you use dropship and vulture harass, people get this into your heads.

On October 24 2008 06:46 Senx wrote:
Lets ask combat-ex

I agree, lets hear what they I have to say

benjammin

United States2728 Posts

October 23 2008 22:53 GMT

#15

Would lurker/ling/scourge be the proper unit mix to combat this or would the zerg not have enough gas? Seems like they could get 3 base running pretty quickly since it takes T longer to build an army. If you'll notice in that game, go.go has no detection at all (no comsats because no academy, no turrets because of no m/m upgrades and having goliaths).

Or would the ease of building a science vessel + ease of scouting with valkyrie make a drop not feasible? When I was watching that game I was thinking that a lurker drop would've really brutalized go.go's main.

eXigent.

Canada2419 Posts

October 23 2008 23:51 GMT

#16

This is not fantasies build. The main point the of build is the vulture drop / harassment. The drop is important sure, but he really needs the vultures so that he can MINE zergs expansions. The point to the build is to delay zergs expo with mines. this allows his mech build to be as powerful as it is.

His build is pretty specific, and just b/c you see someone use a valk, doesnt mean he is doing fantasies build.

slained

Canada966 Posts

October 23 2008 23:54 GMT

#17

i think it could be the build, just an adaptation to july's uber fast spire

Nyovne

Netherlands19135 Posts

October 24 2008 00:28 GMT

#18

Ive been doing fast 1 wraith + speed vults into vult drop intoexpo/mech for... 8 years now orso and ive seen it done plenty. I srly dont get what all the fuss is about except that its rly hard to make viable at prolevel which we see people do every now and then cause of the map dependancy.

eXigent.

Canada2419 Posts

October 24 2008 01:01 GMT

#19

On October 24 2008 09:28 Nyovne wrote:
Ive been doing fast 1 wraith + speed vults into vult drop intoexpo/mech for... 8 years now orso and ive seen it done plenty. I srly dont get what all the fuss is about except that its rly hard to make viable at prolevel which we see people do every now and then cause of the map dependancy.

You have been doing your own version of wraith - speed vult to drop expo mech. You have not been doing fantasies valk - vults with speed/mines - expo -mech. The difference is , your build is much less effective against the very top teir of professionals. I simply cannot see how you can compare the 2. His timing / game sense / play ability is lightyears above yours, and imo that would lead to a much better timed, solid build. Add the fact that iloveoov taught it to him (one of the best terrans of all time), and you simply cannot compare what you made up, with what he made up. Period.

EDIT: If you took the time to remember what Day wrote on his post about this build, you will see that fantasy makes it viable on any map. There is no longer a map dependancy. That is what makes it great

Raithed

China7078 Posts

October 24 2008 01:39 GMT

#20

exactly, and yeah this build can variate(bisu/flash/savior[?]), but all in all it is becoming more and more of a nuisance to zergs.

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