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before recently, have valkyies really been used to transition into mech like fantasy did (with or without dropship+vultures)?
yes, the vultures are specific to the build showed against GGplay now, (keep in mind he used a slightly different build each time) but look, I can say that bisu build is only quick gas at expo, 2 gate sair into agressive DT and argue that since sair and dt were used before bisu to deny/delay expos even in the foreigner scene, not going 2 gate heavy sair into agressive dt is not the bisuj buld.
But if you look at what we call today the bisu build, is it necessary to have 6+ sairs? Is it necessary to have super agressive DTs? is it necessary to have 2 stargates?
If you look at what is commonly called bisu build today (wrightly or wrongly), its doesnt always fullfill all those criteria and yet people still call it bisu build.
What I'm trying to say is that the goals and trademarks of the build are more important than the details, and I dont think the fantasy's build is old enough to say for sure that vultures are a trademark of the "SKT metal build" - yes I agree with day that they make sense, but that doesnt make them central.
If you look at another trademark build, SK Terran. Most people will agree that its a lot of vessels (usually off two ports), and marines and medics with no tanks that aims to harass zerg expansions and be both agressive and mobile.
Yet does SK terran have to open with a quick marine rush? Could you have a few early tanks and then transition to SKterran later on? Do you have to do MnM drops? If you pump a few vultures to deal with defilers/ultra is it no longer SKterran?
Most people would agree that you need the trademark units: mnm and vessels, and a certain trademark style: mobile agresssion and expansion harassment.
But the details and specifics vary based on the map, the progamer, and the adaptation that goes on through out the game.
If you scout 2 hatch muta, realize you wont be able to afford the vulture drop, or it wont arrive in time to be useful, do everything else that is typically done in the build, is it all of a sudden not SKT metal?
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote:
Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.
I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol.
judging by this statement, you'll fit very nicely into the ranks of protoss players!
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On October 24 2008 06:46 Senx wrote:
Lets ask combat-ex
Combat Ex is that dude that in one of those dual commentaries with Diggity/Moletrap he corrected the errenous use of the term 'Bisu build'?
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Here's how it goes:
Everyone else: Look he's doing the bisu build!
Hot_Bid: No that's not the bisu build, that's the fast expand into heavy corsair and possibly reaver/dt build.
Everyone else: Look he's doing the Jaedong build!
Hot_Bid: No that's not he Jaedong build, that's the 2 hatch mutalisks with timing scourge with possibly muta/scourge flanking corsair build.
Everyone else: Look he's doing the by.fantasy build!
Hot_Bid: No that's not the by.fantasy build, that's the fast expand into mech/valk build.
:p get on w/ the trend already
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On October 24 2008 12:57 BlackStar wrote:Combat Ex is that dude that in one of those dual commentaries with Diggity/Moletrap he corrected the errenous use of the term 'Bisu build'?
yes but lets not start a flamewar, its about how there are different variants of the build. i hate calling it an skt metal terran vs z, hate calling it mech. fantasys creation is better though so why not stick it as fantasy build. yeah, the mech has been done, way over, but once valk/mech comes into play then lets call it fantasy. same with bisu okay! jaedong doesnt have a build iirc.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
july was actually already dead before the last attack. gogo's 3 base mech was not going to lose at that point. july just figured what the heck ill throw this stuff away. this map seems to lend itself to tech builds vs zerg overall.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
one other thing, i dont think fantasy inspired go.go's play here. i think the modern rise of TvZ mech started with shudder vs ggplay (i think it was ggplay? i know it was shudder.) on katrina. for a while mech died down a bit (somewhat because of maps, somewhat because of terrans reacting better to 3hat muta with regular builds) but now we should see another rise with this set of maps. if starcraft is around for 10 more years, i wouldnt be surprised to see mech become standard tvz at high levels.
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Artosis, in your opinion, what's the best counter? Every idea I had seems to be so gas-intensive for zerg that it'd be hard to survive long enough for high tech to kick in.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
jesus christ, this is gonna turn into another "HURRRR FLASH BUILD" disaster
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On October 24 2008 17:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jesus christ, this is gonna turn into another "HURRRR FLASH BUILD" disaster
nay steven, it shall not be. IT CANNOT BE, but seriously zergs will cry. i dont play zerg i just want a discussion.
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EPT
