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Braavos36373 Posts
its not fantasy's build, this is 1 base valk into expo and standard mech, theres no vulture drop either, hence why july was pretty ahead and threw it all away with a bad attack
its more like just the standard valk --> mech we've seen on maps like plasma (before the osl semi between ggplay/fantasy)
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well in a sense, it is, its not the same order and i shouldnt really emphasized that it IS his build but the way go.go played about it made it seem so alike fantasy's. same goes for the bisu build(here we go again right?) there are MANY variations, we know that standard bisu is forge FE corsair/dt but one could go corsair reaver/templar harass kind of build/game. lets say you did not watch this entire game and you just skipped into the middle, it is nostalgic to fantasy vs ggplay's game(s).
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I dont think the build HAS to have a vulture drop to fit into the same category as fantasy's build
its still a valkyrie transition into mech, just a different variant
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Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.
I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol.
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I think it's just like Bisu or Flash build. Nothing is exact, people who know the build best (Bisu or Flash in this case) adapt to what the opponent does.
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Calgary25969 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote: Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.
I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol. Yea, THAT'S why you switched.
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On October 24 2008 05:43 Hot_Bid wrote: its not fantasy's build, this is 1 base valk into expo and standard mech, theres no vulture drop either, hence why july was pretty ahead and threw it all away with a bad attack
its more like just the standard valk --> mech we've seen on maps like plasma (before the osl semi between ggplay/fantasy)
I think it is the fantasy build, it has all the element of a fantasy build in the beginning. The divergent we see from the fantasy build at that point was Go.go's adaptation to what julyzerg is doing.
He scouted and saw it clearly that he will not be able to stop julyzerg's fast mutaliks harrase if he in fact waste any more gas and minerals on the mine research and dropship. So he built goliaths and valks to defend the fast mutalisk. As you can see in that game by the way julyzerg went into his base he had 3 goliaths and 1 valk, if he expanded and made that vulture drop in july's main he would have 200 less gas. On top of that he has to defend both his building expansion and his main with out turrets.
Go go knew what he was doing in that game, but he was not fantasy, i bet fantasy would have a different counter, Julyzerg should have that game down after he obliterated go go in the middle and took control. But he fucked up one fight and that was it for him.
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lmao imo it shouldnt be for you to switch a race JUST because of a build, what, zergs switched to another race because of bisu's build? i know a lot of people did, and called it imbalanced, now its standard and everyone can counter it. instead of zvp its now zvt and fantasy's build(yes there are many variants) just dominate zergs right now because they dont have the experience in dealing with it. remember boxer vs savior in monty hall and boxer did this build MINUS THE VALKYRIES, thus i wont say its "fantasy's build" at all. its just that even then, a lot of players(zerg) have a hard time dealing with this. when jaedong went up against it vs flash on katrina, he didnt really know either. yeah, he macro'd well and defended well but generally, zergs really dont know many weaknesses of this build except its lack of mobility.
when fantasy used this, after 1-2 days, we saw multiple threads about "how can zerg beat mech" and shit like that. usually mutaling > this build but as valkyrie numbers skyrocket(same for critical mass of corsairs), theyre immune to scourge/mutalisks and this forces zerg to go the hydra route. i want this as a blog discussion and not a "strategy" because i dont want threads to truncate each other.
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hes got things that only attack air its clearly the bisu build.
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On October 24 2008 06:17 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote: Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.
I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol. Yea, THAT'S why you switched. Yup. I was already like 0-15 against terran, I dont need MORE trouble in that regard.
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Uhm, that wasnt Fanatsy build. The Fantasy build ONLY, read ONLY, works if you use dropship and vulture harass, people get this into your heads.
On October 24 2008 06:46 Senx wrote: Lets ask combat-ex
I agree, lets hear what they I have to say
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Would lurker/ling/scourge be the proper unit mix to combat this or would the zerg not have enough gas? Seems like they could get 3 base running pretty quickly since it takes T longer to build an army. If you'll notice in that game, go.go has no detection at all (no comsats because no academy, no turrets because of no m/m upgrades and having goliaths).
Or would the ease of building a science vessel + ease of scouting with valkyrie make a drop not feasible? When I was watching that game I was thinking that a lurker drop would've really brutalized go.go's main.
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This is not fantasies build. The main point the of build is the vulture drop / harassment. The drop is important sure, but he really needs the vultures so that he can MINE zergs expansions. The point to the build is to delay zergs expo with mines. this allows his mech build to be as powerful as it is.
His build is pretty specific, and just b/c you see someone use a valk, doesnt mean he is doing fantasies build.
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i think it could be the build, just an adaptation to july's uber fast spire
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Netherlands19129 Posts
Ive been doing fast 1 wraith + speed vults into vult drop intoexpo/mech for... 8 years now orso and ive seen it done plenty. I srly dont get what all the fuss is about except that its rly hard to make viable at prolevel which we see people do every now and then cause of the map dependancy.
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On October 24 2008 09:28 Nyovne wrote: Ive been doing fast 1 wraith + speed vults into vult drop intoexpo/mech for... 8 years now orso and ive seen it done plenty. I srly dont get what all the fuss is about except that its rly hard to make viable at prolevel which we see people do every now and then cause of the map dependancy.
You have been doing your own version of wraith - speed vult to drop expo mech. You have not been doing fantasies valk - vults with speed/mines - expo -mech. The difference is , your build is much less effective against the very top teir of professionals. I simply cannot see how you can compare the 2. His timing / game sense / play ability is lightyears above yours, and imo that would lead to a much better timed, solid build. Add the fact that iloveoov taught it to him (one of the best terrans of all time), and you simply cannot compare what you made up, with what he made up. Period.
EDIT: If you took the time to remember what Day wrote on his post about this build, you will see that fantasy makes it viable on any map. There is no longer a map dependancy. That is what makes it great
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exactly, and yeah this build can variate(bisu/flash/savior[?]), but all in all it is becoming more and more of a nuisance to zergs.
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before recently, have valkyies really been used to transition into mech like fantasy did (with or without dropship+vultures)?
yes, the vultures are specific to the build showed against GGplay now, (keep in mind he used a slightly different build each time) but look, I can say that bisu build is only quick gas at expo, 2 gate sair into agressive DT and argue that since sair and dt were used before bisu to deny/delay expos even in the foreigner scene, not going 2 gate heavy sair into agressive dt is not the bisuj buld.
But if you look at what we call today the bisu build, is it necessary to have 6+ sairs? Is it necessary to have super agressive DTs? is it necessary to have 2 stargates?
If you look at what is commonly called bisu build today (wrightly or wrongly), its doesnt always fullfill all those criteria and yet people still call it bisu build.
What I'm trying to say is that the goals and trademarks of the build are more important than the details, and I dont think the fantasy's build is old enough to say for sure that vultures are a trademark of the "SKT metal build" - yes I agree with day that they make sense, but that doesnt make them central.
If you look at another trademark build, SK Terran. Most people will agree that its a lot of vessels (usually off two ports), and marines and medics with no tanks that aims to harass zerg expansions and be both agressive and mobile.
Yet does SK terran have to open with a quick marine rush? Could you have a few early tanks and then transition to SKterran later on? Do you have to do MnM drops? If you pump a few vultures to deal with defilers/ultra is it no longer SKterran?
Most people would agree that you need the trademark units: mnm and vessels, and a certain trademark style: mobile agresssion and expansion harassment.
But the details and specifics vary based on the map, the progamer, and the adaptation that goes on through out the game.
If you scout 2 hatch muta, realize you wont be able to afford the vulture drop, or it wont arrive in time to be useful, do everything else that is typically done in the build, is it all of a sudden not SKT metal?
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote: Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play.
I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol. judging by this statement, you'll fit very nicely into the ranks of protoss players!
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On October 24 2008 06:46 Senx wrote: Lets ask combat-ex
Combat Ex is that dude that in one of those dual commentaries with Diggity/Moletrap he corrected the errenous use of the term 'Bisu build'?
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Here's how it goes:
Everyone else: Look he's doing the bisu build! Hot_Bid: No that's not the bisu build, that's the fast expand into heavy corsair and possibly reaver/dt build.
Everyone else: Look he's doing the Jaedong build! Hot_Bid: No that's not he Jaedong build, that's the 2 hatch mutalisks with timing scourge with possibly muta/scourge flanking corsair build.
Everyone else: Look he's doing the by.fantasy build! Hot_Bid: No that's not the by.fantasy build, that's the fast expand into mech/valk build.
:p get on w/ the trend already
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On October 24 2008 12:57 BlackStar wrote:Combat Ex is that dude that in one of those dual commentaries with Diggity/Moletrap he corrected the errenous use of the term 'Bisu build'? yes but lets not start a flamewar, its about how there are different variants of the build. i hate calling it an skt metal terran vs z, hate calling it mech. fantasys creation is better though so why not stick it as fantasy build. yeah, the mech has been done, way over, but once valk/mech comes into play then lets call it fantasy. same with bisu okay! jaedong doesnt have a build iirc.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
july was actually already dead before the last attack. gogo's 3 base mech was not going to lose at that point. july just figured what the heck ill throw this stuff away. this map seems to lend itself to tech builds vs zerg overall.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
one other thing, i dont think fantasy inspired go.go's play here. i think the modern rise of TvZ mech started with shudder vs ggplay (i think it was ggplay? i know it was shudder.) on katrina. for a while mech died down a bit (somewhat because of maps, somewhat because of terrans reacting better to 3hat muta with regular builds) but now we should see another rise with this set of maps. if starcraft is around for 10 more years, i wouldnt be surprised to see mech become standard tvz at high levels.
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Artosis, in your opinion, what's the best counter? Every idea I had seems to be so gas-intensive for zerg that it'd be hard to survive long enough for high tech to kick in.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
jesus christ, this is gonna turn into another "HURRRR FLASH BUILD" disaster
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On October 24 2008 17:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: jesus christ, this is gonna turn into another "HURRRR FLASH BUILD" disaster nay steven, it shall not be. IT CANNOT BE, but seriously zergs will cry. i dont play zerg i just want a discussion.
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