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Raithed
China7078 Posts
take a look at this game, its july vs go.go in proleague, 22nd of this month. ive seen fantasy do it, and i havent been playing iccup as of late and i dont play z so im not sure if people are actually doing thie build all throughout iccup in terms of zvt but man, wtf? go.go actually uses it. and to ... + Show Spoiler + his success, he won. july doesnt know how to counter it like ggplay either. guess we cant blame ggplay. or maybe that july was being TOO aggressive with last attack....?  | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
its more like just the standard valk --> mech we've seen on maps like plasma (before the osl semi between ggplay/fantasy) | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
its still a valkyrie transition into mech, just a different variant | ||
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XCetron
5226 Posts
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol. | ||
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote: Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play. I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol. Yea, THAT'S why you switched. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
On October 24 2008 05:43 Hot_Bid wrote: its not fantasy's build, this is 1 base valk into expo and standard mech, theres no vulture drop either, hence why july was pretty ahead and threw it all away with a bad attack its more like just the standard valk --> mech we've seen on maps like plasma (before the osl semi between ggplay/fantasy) I think it is the fantasy build, it has all the element of a fantasy build in the beginning. The divergent we see from the fantasy build at that point was Go.go's adaptation to what julyzerg is doing. He scouted and saw it clearly that he will not be able to stop julyzerg's fast mutaliks harrase if he in fact waste any more gas and minerals on the mine research and dropship. So he built goliaths and valks to defend the fast mutalisk. As you can see in that game by the way julyzerg went into his base he had 3 goliaths and 1 valk, if he expanded and made that vulture drop in july's main he would have 200 less gas. On top of that he has to defend both his building expansion and his main with out turrets. Go go knew what he was doing in that game, but he was not fantasy, i bet fantasy would have a different counter, Julyzerg should have that game down after he obliterated go go in the middle and took control. But he fucked up one fight and that was it for him. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
when fantasy used this, after 1-2 days, we saw multiple threads about "how can zerg beat mech" and shit like that. usually mutaling > this build but as valkyrie numbers skyrocket(same for critical mass of corsairs), theyre immune to scourge/mutalisks and this forces zerg to go the hydra route. i want this as a blog discussion and not a "strategy" because i dont want threads to truncate each other. | ||
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Zuries
United Kingdom156 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:46 Senx wrote: Lets ask combat-ex I agree, lets hear what they I have to say | ||
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
Or would the ease of building a science vessel + ease of scouting with valkyrie make a drop not feasible? When I was watching that game I was thinking that a lurker drop would've really brutalized go.go's main. | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
His build is pretty specific, and just b/c you see someone use a valk, doesnt mean he is doing fantasies build. | ||
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slained
Canada966 Posts
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Nyovne
Netherlands19140 Posts
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On October 24 2008 09:28 Nyovne wrote: Ive been doing fast 1 wraith + speed vults into vult drop intoexpo/mech for... 8 years now orso and ive seen it done plenty. I srly dont get what all the fuss is about except that its rly hard to make viable at prolevel which we see people do every now and then cause of the map dependancy. You have been doing your own version of wraith - speed vult to drop expo mech. You have not been doing fantasies valk - vults with speed/mines - expo -mech. The difference is , your build is much less effective against the very top teir of professionals. I simply cannot see how you can compare the 2. His timing / game sense / play ability is lightyears above yours, and imo that would lead to a much better timed, solid build. Add the fact that iloveoov taught it to him (one of the best terrans of all time), and you simply cannot compare what you made up, with what he made up. Period. EDIT: If you took the time to remember what Day wrote on his post about this build, you will see that fantasy makes it viable on any map. There is no longer a map dependancy. That is what makes it great | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
yes, the vultures are specific to the build showed against GGplay now, (keep in mind he used a slightly different build each time) but look, I can say that bisu build is only quick gas at expo, 2 gate sair into agressive DT and argue that since sair and dt were used before bisu to deny/delay expos even in the foreigner scene, not going 2 gate heavy sair into agressive dt is not the bisuj buld. But if you look at what we call today the bisu build, is it necessary to have 6+ sairs? Is it necessary to have super agressive DTs? is it necessary to have 2 stargates? If you look at what is commonly called bisu build today (wrightly or wrongly), its doesnt always fullfill all those criteria and yet people still call it bisu build. What I'm trying to say is that the goals and trademarks of the build are more important than the details, and I dont think the fantasy's build is old enough to say for sure that vultures are a trademark of the "SKT metal build" - yes I agree with day that they make sense, but that doesnt make them central. If you look at another trademark build, SK Terran. Most people will agree that its a lot of vessels (usually off two ports), and marines and medics with no tanks that aims to harass zerg expansions and be both agressive and mobile. Yet does SK terran have to open with a quick marine rush? Could you have a few early tanks and then transition to SKterran later on? Do you have to do MnM drops? If you pump a few vultures to deal with defilers/ultra is it no longer SKterran? Most people would agree that you need the trademark units: mnm and vessels, and a certain trademark style: mobile agresssion and expansion harassment. But the details and specifics vary based on the map, the progamer, and the adaptation that goes on through out the game. If you scout 2 hatch muta, realize you wont be able to afford the vulture drop, or it wont arrive in time to be useful, do everything else that is typically done in the build, is it all of a sudden not SKT metal? | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:06 ScarFace wrote: Agreed. This is Fantasy's build- even if its somewhat inaccurate and anarchistic to call it such, it saves time and obviously was chosen by Go.Go as his build, due to Fantasy having success with similar play. I actually switched to protoss just to avoid this build lol. judging by this statement, you'll fit very nicely into the ranks of protoss players! | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On October 24 2008 06:46 Senx wrote: Lets ask combat-ex Combat Ex is that dude that in one of those dual commentaries with Diggity/Moletrap he corrected the errenous use of the term 'Bisu build'? | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Everyone else: Look he's doing the bisu build! Hot_Bid: No that's not the bisu build, that's the fast expand into heavy corsair and possibly reaver/dt build. Everyone else: Look he's doing the Jaedong build! Hot_Bid: No that's not he Jaedong build, that's the 2 hatch mutalisks with timing scourge with possibly muta/scourge flanking corsair build. Everyone else: Look he's doing the by.fantasy build! Hot_Bid: No that's not the by.fantasy build, that's the fast expand into mech/valk build. :p get on w/ the trend already | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On October 24 2008 12:57 BlackStar wrote: Combat Ex is that dude that in one of those dual commentaries with Diggity/Moletrap he corrected the errenous use of the term 'Bisu build'? yes but lets not start a flamewar, its about how there are different variants of the build. i hate calling it an skt metal terran vs z, hate calling it mech. fantasys creation is better though so why not stick it as fantasy build. yeah, the mech has been done, way over, but once valk/mech comes into play then lets call it fantasy. same with bisu okay! jaedong doesnt have a build iirc. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On October 24 2008 17:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: jesus christ, this is gonna turn into another "HURRRR FLASH BUILD" disaster nay steven, it shall not be. IT CANNOT BE, but seriously zergs will cry. i dont play zerg i just want a discussion. | ||
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