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This is from iccup:
"Whenever a player leaves the game before 2 min mark. And that player scouts and sees unfavorable build to him like 5pool or a proxy rush or anything that implies great disadvantage (This also applies for taking gas (usually terrans leave)), admins are obligated to give him -100 penalty for 1st offense and increase it by a factor of 100 for next ones. (2nd -200 3rd -300 etc).
There can be also a situation when a player wants to cancel game because its close to 2min mark and no one had advantage(Usually the person who lost makes the complaint). If you see same thing as explained above give the offender a penalty and leave the game as it is. If the offender was the winner game is canceled and offender gets the penalty." (http://sc.iccup.com/iccthread/29873/)
This rule must been made by a guy who loves to cheese. With the number of kids cheesing on ICCUP, this pisses me off. If my gas gets stolen in tvp, and its not a clan match, I usually just leave since it is a waste of my time.
ICCUP usually pisses me off since it is mostly cheese these days, especially from Protoss. 2/3 of my total games, people have cheesed me.
Okay, so a lot of people started posting right away. I think a lot of people think
a)I am a noob
b)I can't block cheese
c)Both a and b
When people steal gas, its just a waste of my time. Why is a waste of time you ask? cause its damn annoying(not hard) to deal with. The part that makes me angry is
"Whenever a player leaves the game before 2 min mark. And that player scouts and sees unfavorable build to him like 5pool or a proxy rush or anything that implies great disadvantage (This also applies for taking gas (usually terrans leave))"
How is terran at a disadvantage? The game is even, there isn't even the slightest advantage that my opponent gets. The one thing that happens now is, it is now going to be a 20+ min game. I can see why your opponent would be at an advantage if it is a 5pool.
basically, I am ranting because you get penalized for what should be a draw.
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k
I remember a time on a PvP on Sin Peaks where I set up an anti-manner pylon and as expected he sent a very early probe, saw my pylon, then left. I complained but didn't get any points so I sorta welcome this change.
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I did know this yes, and it's there for a good reason. If you're gas is stolen that's not automatically gg, there are a number of ways you can counter it.
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D rank is all about the cheese resistance. First game I ever played on ICCUP: Bunker rush, next game, 2gate proxy, next game, 4pool. I love it.
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On August 19 2008 04:18 blabber wrote:
k
I remember a time on a PvP on Sin Peaks where I set up an anti-manner pylon and as expected he sent a very early probe, saw my pylon, then left. I complained but didn't get any points so I sorta welcome this change.
What's that? :S
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I don't get this talk about iccup beeing a cheese fest. Out of 70 games perhaps 4 bunker rushes, + a couple of 2 gates (if you want to call that cheese? :S) no 4-5 pools at all. Maybe I have been lucky *shrugs*
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huh? o.o ^__^
what is your 2nd paragraph about neshy?
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On August 19 2008 04:22 anderoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 04:18 blabber wrote:
k
I remember a time on a PvP on Sin Peaks where I set up an anti-manner pylon and as expected he sent a very early probe, saw my pylon, then left. I complained but didn't get any points so I sorta welcome this change. What's that? :S
Pylon in such a way it stops your opponent from manner pyloning you - See Bisu vs Pokju on Peaks for an example of the manner pylon.
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On August 19 2008 04:22 anderoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 04:18 blabber wrote:
k
I remember a time on a PvP on Sin Peaks where I set up an anti-manner pylon and as expected he sent a very early probe, saw my pylon, then left. I complained but didn't get any points so I sorta welcome this change. What's that? :S
I guess it'd be just a pylon that gets in the way of setting up a manner pylon and going into Bisu-style 2 gates above your mineral line at the top position on Peaks of Baekdu
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On August 19 2008 04:18 jello_biafra wrote:
I did know this yes, and it's there for a good reason. If you're gas is stolen that's not automatically gg, there are a number of ways you can counter it.
Yeah, watch iloveoov vs reach, I forget which game it was. basically, he gets his gas stolen 3 times and comes out on top.
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OP is a total noob
ur playing starcraft, not some game with rules you've made up in your head
learn to counter cheese. u think pros never deal with cheese?
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So anti-manner pylon is basically a pylon in your own minerals that doesn't impede mining, but blocks manner pylons from getting laid down?
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What's that? :S
Putting a pylon in your minerals that doesn't trap your probes, and that makes it impossible for your opponent to build a pylon that would trap them.
what is your 2nd paragraph about neshy?
I think it's like someone who goes proxy 2 gate, scouts a wall, and leaves before 2 minutes on a two player map.
I don't get this talk about iccup beeing a cheese fest. Out of 70 games perhaps 4 bunker rushes, + a couple of 2 gates (if you want to call that cheese? :S) no 4-5 pools at all. Maybe I have been lucky *shrugs*
No, you're right. People just love to whine and bitch about cheese all the time, when it's really not even cheese. 2gate is a standard strategy. A lot of times "cheese" is their opponent scouting them, recognizing a huge hole in their game, and abusing it immediately. Bad players get cheesed all the time because they take stupid risks and it shows. Play safe, own cheese, move up to the next rank if it's so dominant. The fact is it isn't. You might as well call putting a pylon where your natural hatchery would go if you think stealing gas is cheese (although it is frustrating, both of them).
Cheese is the reason you can't get too greedy, and that delicate balance is what makes StarCraft great.
ur playing starcraft, not some game with rules you've made up in your head
NR20 K, RUSHING IS CHEAP!
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On August 19 2008 04:34 il0seonpurpose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 04:18 jello_biafra wrote:
I did know this yes, and it's there for a good reason. If you're gas is stolen that's not automatically gg, there are a number of ways you can counter it. Yeah, watch iloveoov vs reach, I forget which game it was. basically, he gets his gas stolen 3 times and comes out on top.
Aside from watching that one game, what kinda options does the terran have to counter it? I swear I've lost every iCCup game where the toss stole my gas, because after I either a) Went for some bunker rush, b) Continued mining minerals, waiting for my first rine to kill it to I can build mine (Or else he seems to zeal rush and I have insufficient minerals to defend it properly because I sent scvs to attack the assimilator right away), but then of course I have a very late gas, c) Send scvs to attack it right away(as explained above). Those are usually the choices I seem to be left with, and neither works well, if I choose a) then he is ready for my 'rush' and micros around my unranged/unstimmable rines and shuts down my rush, b) then I have a very late gas and I'm just naturally behind a good minute or so, so he can outtech me, expand, macro, w/e. and c) he usually zeal rushes me or does the same thing as b) because I'm just naturally behind from not mining as many minerals. Is there any different counters to stealing gas or am I supposed to pull some gosu harass to catch up or something...
EDIT: Usually this happens to me when the toss scouts me pretty early, like right before my rax has started, or right when it has started and my gas isn't up yet, If my scv is just about to start my rax (which i get a tad bit before gas) and I see a probe should I get my gas first, it delays my rax like what, 5 seconds? That is what I've been doing lately, or is something like a FE with bunker alright, so you aren't behind economically, then eventually get your gases going?
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so what do you do in clanwars when people steal your gas? curse them and leave too? I don't see why practising against gas steal would be more a waste of time than anything else. It's very likely to happen in any pvt on a serious level.
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I was an ICCup Ladder Admin for some time and I totally agree with that rule. If you join a game and leave before 2 minutes because you think your going to lose cause you let him steal your gas or something else then you deserve to be penalized because you also wasted the other guys time who waited for someone to join and started the game and everything like that.
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wait can you tell me what exactly the OP wants to criticise about this rule?
i think its perfectly fine
or i dont understand it.... :/
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On August 19 2008 04:43 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 04:34 il0seonpurpose wrote:On August 19 2008 04:18 jello_biafra wrote:
I did know this yes, and it's there for a good reason. If you're gas is stolen that's not automatically gg, there are a number of ways you can counter it. Yeah, watch iloveoov vs reach, I forget which game it was. basically, he gets his gas stolen 3 times and comes out on top. Aside from watching that one game, what kinda options does the terran have to counter it? I swear I've lost every iCCup game where the toss stole my gas, because after I either a) Went for some bunker rush, b) Continued mining minerals, waiting for my first rine to kill it to I can build mine (Or else he seems to zeal rush and I have insufficient minerals to defend it properly because I sent scvs to attack the assimilator right away), but then of course I have a very late gas, c) Send scvs to attack it right away(as explained above). Those are usually the choices I seem to be left with, and neither works well, if I choose a) then he is ready for my 'rush' and micros around my unranged/unstimmable rines and shuts down my rush, b) then I have a very late gas and I'm just naturally behind a good minute or so, so he can outtech me, expand, macro, w/e. and c) he usually zeal rushes me or does the same thing as b) because I'm just naturally behind from not mining as many minerals. Is there any different counters to stealing gas or am I supposed to pull some gosu harass to catch up or something...
I believe as soon as the gas is stolen you put down another barracks with the minerals you have saved up for the refinery. Personally i just send a couple of scvs to attack(that would be mining gas anyway) Then transitition into a marine/medic push or biomech.
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On August 19 2008 04:41 anderoo wrote:
So anti-manner pylon is basically a pylon in your own minerals that doesn't impede mining, but blocks manner pylons from getting laid down?
Yes it's exactly that
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Yeah I had never thought about this possibility (of a player scouting an unfavorable opening and leaving before 2 minutes), but I had to look it up when it happened. A player started a proxy gate on blue storm and left when he scouted my pool first build.
At first I was upset that I didn't get any points, since it was an easy win for me, but whatever. He lost 100 points, so i guess that's enough of a deterrant to keep this from happening all the time.
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On August 19 2008 04:39 travis wrote:
OP is a total noob
ur playing starcraft, not some game with rules you've made up in your head
learn to counter cheese. u think pros never deal with cheese?
you're wrong
Op would trash you
this doesn't justify his disappointment though
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I'll keep this in mind and leave the game if I messup my build order, or didn't scout opponent on first try, or mistimed my supply, get mannered pylon, denied scouting if opponent makes a wall, etcetc
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Well I must say i've left the game like 2-3 times when P has taken my gas. Usually out of frustration. I'll have to stop doing that ;D
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just make your gas before you make your barracks. simple.
and block entrance with supply supply barracks everygame vs p.
and use scv to scout for proxies etc.
not hard to counter cheeses. once u succesfully defend the cheese your enemy is behind and u have advantage.
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Why would you complain about this..??
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8751 Posts
On August 19 2008 04:51 MasterReY wrote:
wait can you tell me what exactly the OP wants to criticise about this rule?
i think its perfectly fine
or i dont understand it.... :/
the rule is ok but the admin's interpretation of it is bad. a protoss stealing a terran's gas isn't a huge advantage for the protoss. it's just one way the game can play out. i'd like to hear iccup admin's prove that protoss gas steal pvt is 100% advantage for protoss because i dont think it can be done >.<
they should just change it so that if any scouting is done at all, then the person who leaves loses points. a gas steal doesnt reveal anything but build orders and it's not an advantage or a disadvantage. but unfortunately that wouldnt help nesh out. nesh, i gotta say that it's just part of the game that you have to put up with. you should just take all the precautions you can to prevent it (build first depot out front, etc) and just roll w/ it. or if you just dont care about points at all, and you're just playing to have fun 100%, then just keep leaving and there's nothin wrong with that ;o
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On August 19 2008 05:05 iakNab wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 04:39 travis wrote:
OP is a total noob
ur playing starcraft, not some game with rules you've made up in your head
learn to counter cheese. u think pros never deal with cheese? you're wrong Op would trash you this doesn't justify his disappointment though
lol I am sure he would but how does that make me wrong?
i am not saying he is literally a "noob" at sc. that would be silly.
he clearly has alot to learn if he is still complaining about cheese
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I actually like it when protoss comes and gas rushes me. It changes the game and makes it more interesting, at least for me.
I, for one, hate the noobs that leave 10 seconds into the game because their split wasn't perfect.
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SC was pretty interesting when it was a 5 minute rule and everyone abused it.
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if SC allows games to end as a draw under 3mins or w/e, theres obviously a reason for that, and it shouldn't be altered...
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On August 19 2008 12:41 YanGpaN wrote:
if SC allows games to end as a draw under 3mins or w/e, theres obviously a reason for that, and it shouldn't be altered...
umm, tell that to zergs that 7pool, scout u, and then leave if ur going to be able to stop it
actually don't tell that to them because they will agree with you
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On August 19 2008 06:16 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 04:51 MasterReY wrote:
wait can you tell me what exactly the OP wants to criticise about this rule?
i think its perfectly fine
or i dont understand it.... :/ they should just change it so that if any scouting is done at all, then the person who leaves loses points.
What would you class as scouting though?
Do you actually have to find the other player?
Or does a Zerg player's first overlord count as scouting?
I like your suggestion, as long as there's not too much ambiguity, I don't trust iccup admins to make the right decision every time.
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On August 19 2008 12:41 YanGpaN wrote:
if SC allows games to end as a draw under 3mins or w/e, theres obviously a reason for that, and it shouldn't be altered...
It's 2 mins.
This is actually a really good point. The game is set up so that if it ends in under 2 minutes it is a draw. That is a rule of starcraft. It is a basic rule built into the game. Less than 2 minutes is a draw. Simple as that. I dont think iccup should change the rules of the game. Starcraft was designed to be played a certain way and the rules shouldnt be altered because some people dont like them (this is different than exploiting bugs, because bugs are unintended). Just like 4pooling is allowed by the rules, if you scout a 4pool and leave in under 2 minutes, well thats allowed by the rules of starcraft. These are the rules of the game set by Blizzard.
I dont want people to think I am defending this because I do it. I have never done it. I dont cheese and thus have never had a failed cheese that I need to leave for. And I have only ever been cheesed a few times(less than 5 times in the last year on bnet and iccup).
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On August 19 2008 14:12 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 12:41 YanGpaN wrote:
if SC allows games to end as a draw under 3mins or w/e, theres obviously a reason for that, and it shouldn't be altered... It's 2 mins. This is actually a really good point. The game is set up so that if it ends in under 2 minutes it is a draw. That is a rule of starcraft. It is a basic rule built into the game. Less than 2 minutes is a draw. Simple as that. I dont think iccup should change the rules of the game. Starcraft was designed to be played a certain way and the rules shouldnt be altered because some people dont like them (this is different than exploiting bugs, because bugs are unintended). Just like 4pooling is allowed by the rules, if you scout a 4pool and leave in under 2 minutes, well thats allowed by the rules of starcraft. These are the rules of the game set by Blizzard. I dont want people to think I am defending this because I do it. I have never done it. I dont cheese and thus have never had a failed cheese that I need to leave for. And I have only ever been cheesed a few times(less than 5 times in the last year on bnet and iccup).
this ignores the point I made 2 posts above you -.-
though that rarely happens in under 2min
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Guys, the rule used to be 5 minutes. It was changed to 2 minutes for a reason. No one is supposed to be able to decide their chances of winning or losing before the point--it's there so you can league due to circumstances like lag, or if you change your mind about playing a game at all. Obviously even 2 minutes is too long anymore. Ladders would be fair to just count every game at this point. Maybe you could allow a draw in the first 30 secs or something.
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I think the rule is definitely justified.
I think it would really help in Zerg vs Zerg, where if you go 12 hatch and scout a 9 pool and you just leave. That is really unfair and a totally dumb decision if you leave before the 2 minute mark and scout your disadvantage.
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On August 19 2008 14:12 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 12:41 YanGpaN wrote:
if SC allows games to end as a draw under 3mins or w/e, theres obviously a reason for that, and it shouldn't be altered... It's 2 mins. This is actually a really good point. The game is set up so that if it ends in under 2 minutes it is a draw. That is a rule of starcraft. It is a basic rule built into the game. Less than 2 minutes is a draw. Simple as that. I dont think iccup should change the rules of the game. Starcraft was designed to be played a certain way and the rules shouldnt be altered because some people dont like them (this is different than exploiting bugs, because bugs are unintended). Just like 4pooling is allowed by the rules, if you scout a 4pool and leave in under 2 minutes, well thats allowed by the rules of starcraft. These are the rules of the game set by Blizzard. I dont want people to think I am defending this because I do it. I have never done it. I dont cheese and thus have never had a failed cheese that I need to leave for. And I have only ever been cheesed a few times(less than 5 times in the last year on bnet and iccup).
while I agree with this to an extent, it doesn't apply in this particular scenario. If you find out you're at a disadvantage before the 2min mark and leave, it should not be a draw.
your argument is flawed in a few ways. First, at this point, the community knows better than blizzard as to how starcraft "should" (whatever that means) be played. This concerns maps, allowed/prohibited bugs, etc.
Just because something is allowed by the basic rules of the game does not mean that it's accepted to play/abide by that rule by the community. For example, akuma in SF. Sure it's an "allowed" character in terms of the game, it's definitely intended. And yet it's banned. Is the whole SF community simply a bunch of whiners that should "learn to deal" with akuma just like we should "learn to deal" with the fact that some builds have a chance to get an early advantage with no risk (i.e. leave if you get a disadvantage instead for a draw?)
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EPT
