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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
I notice when people discuss map balance, they often quote the progamer's map statistics as proof as to whether or not a map is balanced. This has always been faulty. Map balance is a very complex thing to analyze, and to pretend that a group of statistics from professional games can sum it up is ignorant.
To make the point on why you shouldn't take map stats seriously, I will now explain the most obvious flaw to map stats: Nostalgia.
Many people say that Nostalgia was the most balanced map ever. It's progamer map stats back that up as well. With a huge amount of games played on the map, all the matchups were really close to even with each other.
The problem is, progamer skill wasn't balanced at the time.
When Nostalgia was popular, the best 3 players in the world were NaDa, Boxer, and iloveoov. They had been the best players in the world for a while, and they continued on afterwards for a while still.
I shouldn't have to say this, but the best players in the world contribute most to map stats, because they play the most official games (they make it further than everyone else and qualify for more and are invited to more and play more in proleague etc etc etc.).
In addition to this, they were strategic leaders for the world. While the terran domination was in place, there was a huge racial imbalance in Korea. Far more highly skilled terrans than players of other races. I'm not going to look it up, but we can safely assume that during this era the KeSPA top 30 was dominated by the terran race.
Now, if we have the 3 best players in the world as terran players, and the top 30 of KeSPA being dominated by terrans, a balanced map should have win % stats in FAVOR of terran. Nostalgia has terran winning at approximately 50%, and thus is a very imbalanced map. The stats alone for this map mean nothing. Don't ever let anyone tell you that Nostalgia is balanced. Because its not.
Map stats are not completely useless. When you know a lot about the progaming scene, current top players, and the current evolution of popular strategies, then you can read between the lines and figure out a map's real balance.
 
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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didn't look at it that way before, tx!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
wow artosis openin eyes and making believers...
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
KOREAN MAPS ARE LESS IMPORTANT HAHA
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT KOREAN MAPS KID? JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 01 2008 00:36 NonY[rC] wrote:
To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures:
--Zergling
--Marine
That was easy.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS.
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8748 Posts
Yeah I was hoping some Terran players can tell us Protoss and Zerg what automining is like since your SCV automines gas when it finishes a refinery. On Wikipedia it says that the word 'Terran' derives from a phrase meaning "a life of luxury" or "a life of ease". I can see why!
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Etymological timeline
* circa 1300, from the Middle English terrene, "belonging to this world, earthly, secular, temporal"
* 1635: "of the Earth as a planet"
* 1881, from the Latin terra in science fiction: "of or pertaining to the planet Earth"
* 1953, as a noun: "inhabitant of the Earth"
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
wiki doesnt fucking lie
get the fuck out
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Hahaahh this thread gives me the giggles 
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Wtf with the image macros..
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man artosis, you're going to need an epic come-back to reclaim your thread lololol
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Well if he just bans Inc. (I'd recommend to do this for, anyone trying to prove a point in a blog.) He might be able to recover.
I guess I should add, that Nostalgia is a horrible map for Zerg. Any map with out a gas expand is just a zerg graveyard. Stupid Zerg... needs so much gas.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
hey krohm: Go troll somewhere else faggot.
Nobody else has banned me from their blog cause nobody else is a nancy faggot.
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perhaps someone can ban {88}iNcontroL ?
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On May 01 2008 07:45 Locke, who has 385 posts. wrote:
perhaps someone can ban {88}iNcontroL, who has 13996 posts?
I find this highly unlikely.
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Although I like every right minded American think Incontrol is a hero, isn't the point Artosis was making that Nostalgia is imbalanced because the greatest players, who were all Terran, only won 50% of the time on it? Isn't he saying it's balanced against Terran? If not, either
disregard this or correct me :D!
Edit: Okay, I think I get it. Incontrol is arguing that Artosis should quit crying about map imbalance, and Terran is imba anyway.
I guess I just can't follow because at n00b level, P>T EZ.
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This is the best blog ever.
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Austin10831 Posts
On May 01 2008 06:19 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2008 00:36 NonY[rC] wrote:
To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures:
--Zergling
--Marine
That was easy.
hahahaha
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On May 01 2008 08:04 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2008 07:45 Locke, who has 385 posts. wrote:
perhaps someone can ban {88}iNcontroL, who has 13996 posts? I find this highly unlikely.
OWNED.
BIG PROPS + LOL @ INC <3
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 01 2008 07:45 Locke. wrote:
perhaps someone can ban {88}iNcontroL ?
not for fucking around in a blog made by a close buddy of his
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On May 01 2008 08:04 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2008 07:45 Locke, who has 385 posts. wrote:
perhaps someone can ban {88}iNcontroL, who has 13996 posts? I find this highly unlikely.
Don't ever tell Locke what he can't do!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
locke dream big or go home.
But in this case just go home.
If you had friends, and if those friends made a blog perhaps you'd understand the concept of "having fun." Until then just trust those of us who have friends
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i mean its common knowledge that everyone is artosis' friend and anyone can just say whatever they want to him because he will know they are joking
fuck you artosis shit newbie dog manner!!!!
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Braavos36374 Posts
Thanks to this post Nostalgia will auto-add to mappool of TSL2
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this blog is made of epic win. Should go in hall of fame
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Calgary25972 Posts
The OP is right. There's countless examples. Nostalgia isn't balanced because the play style was micro oriented back then and there player skill difference was huge. Longinus is balanced T=P at the progaming level but slightly T>P at the foreign level. And so on.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
God fast dragoons on Longinus is hell D:
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that's actually a really interesting point. I've never thought of map stats with respect to top players and the meta-strategies at the time.
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by that token, isn't DMZ such a terrible map because a team always had a zerg. what if one team went T/P or T/R instead?
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Braavos36374 Posts
On May 01 2008 11:44 azndsh wrote:
by that token, isn't DMZ such a terrible map because a team always had a zerg. what if one team went T/P or T/R instead?
it's pointless to discuss 2v2 maps without considering a Z on the team, 99% of matches have a Z
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On May 01 2008 07:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey krohm: Go troll somewhere else faggot.
Nobody else has banned me from their blog cause nobody else is a nancy faggot.
Silly, considering you banned me from your blog first because I made a joke about you having a stick up your ass. Couldn't handle the heat of a little joke, based on how much of an unrelenting asshole you are to half the people on these forums.
On May 01 2008 11:25 Chill wrote:
The OP is right. There's countless examples. Nostalgia isn't balanced because the play style was micro oriented back then and there player skill difference was huge. Longinus is balanced T=P at the progaming level but slightly T>P at the foreign level. And so on.
It's funny how foreign level varies so much compared to the monsters in programing.
This thread makes me want to play Nostalgia again... God I hated that map, I don't know why would I want to ever play on it.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
krohm I specifically said no being a dick in that blog and you couldn't help but to be one.
And here you are trolling where you can get attention rofl. Fuck off seriously.
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i'm surprised nobody has said anything about TroyTroy's tvz "imbalance" just because of a 6-0 run for terran. Yet in all of those games, the terran has just outclassed the zerg player :/
I agree that the tl map database isn't the best source for proving map imbalances...if that was Artosis's point 
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The same can be said about race imbalances in general. T was considered the weakest race until Boxer came along and made it the strongest, PvZ was considered imbalanced until Bisu came along and revolutionized the MU. The best players have an enormous influence in the game as they're the ones that push the boundaries of their race further than all the others before them.
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On May 01 2008 16:02 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
krohm I specifically said no being a dick in that blog and you couldn't help but to be one.
And here you are trolling where you can get attention rofl. Fuck off seriously.
Oh yes, and you're not trolling for attention... OH WAIT A MINUTE!
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sorry krohm, you're being a stupid.
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On May 01 2008 21:56 populis wrote:
sorry krohm, you're being a stupid.
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On May 01 2008 21:56 populis wrote:
sorry krohm, you're being a stupid.
Rofl irony. But it's true.
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They should really bring nostalgia back I loved that map.
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On May 01 2008 23:19 fanatacist wrote:Rofl irony. But it's true.
No it's not. You're a dumb.
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If you ban Incontrol, you ban the fun out of this forum. Btw, have you (Incontrol) ever thought of some SC stand-up comedy? You'd sure do great!
EDIT:
Oh and to comment on your rant: Luckily, today everybody's got 300+ APM, therefore flawless macro and micro, so Terrans are really by definition the strongest players. Wait, how many of them are in the TSL qualifiers?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I prefer to type sitting zingggggggggggggggg but you make me blush sir
I wont be banned, fear not fellow tl.netters: the cries of an utter moron wont make anything change. He just joins the ranks of ganfei and other esteemed assholes who get banned eventually.
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Lol inc your only pissed cause you lost to a terran 
Terran fucking rules, we have the most consistent and intelligent players in bw history. Nuff' said.
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On May 02 2008 11:19 ._. wrote:Lol inc your only pissed cause you lost to a terran Terran fucking rules, we have the most consistent and intelligent players in bw history. Nuff' said.
Players like LaStShAdOw fill your ranks, why would you not be proud?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 02 2008 11:19 ._. wrote:Lol inc your only pissed cause you lost to a terran Terran fucking rules, we have the most consistent and intelligent players in bw history. Nuff' said.
uh I've had the amazing experience of losing to all 3 races and even people that didnt select a race but ended up with one anyways. If you were trying to be a total fucking faggot and refer to TSL then I would ask that you like some of the others here, learn what the fuck it is like to joke with friends. And dont claim the "I was joking lawl" bullshit cause in order for that to be the case it'd have to have a semblence of humor. Your comment was just an attempt to get under my skin, nothing more.
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On May 01 2008 11:25 Chill wrote:
The OP is right. There's countless examples. Nostalgia isn't balanced because the play style was micro oriented back then and there player skill difference was huge. Longinus is balanced T=P at the progaming level but slightly T>P at the foreign level. And so on.
Don't you mean P > T at foreign level?
And the OP isn't exactly right. Maybe if you want to say "well, top foreign gamers don't understand maps as well as top progamers," be my guest. But by and large, I really don't think that Artosis' argument is half as solid as he thinks.
1. You say Boxer and Nada and Oov played more games on it than other people. But why did they play more games? They went further into tournaments. But who else goes further into tournaments? Top Protoss gamers? Top Zerg gamers? Okay, so instead of Boxer going even against average Joe's, he's going even against the top Protoss and Zerg players.
Doesn't that alone defeat your argument? Or wait, you're going to say that Boxer was the best player in the world at that time, therefore him going 50% on a map means it's imbalanced? But since most of the top 30 on KeSPA was Terran, wouldn't that same logic mean that all Terran players were the best? That Zerg and Protoss were just inferior races? Or maybe maps where Terran went better than 50% like Gaema Gowon actually were Terran favoring (*GASP*).
2. Face it: foreign gamers don't understand the game as well. That's true at your level too. Unless you claim you are as knowledgable as Boxer/NaDa/Oov/Flash/Midas/Xellos/whoever else you want to name. I think it goes without saying that top Zergs and Protosses are more knowledgable with their respective races since you are a Terran gamer, not a Zerg or Protoss gamer.
Since these people are better, they have a better grasp on how to come up with creative builds and how to properly execute standard builds. Having only 1 gas makes Nos very unforgiving of early game tank losses, but the terrain allows for very strategic pushing. The lack of a quick second gas makes fast cars or arbs a bad idea for Protoss. Blaming the map for your inability to build up an effective push is weak.
An imbalance means that no matter what you do, you're at a disadvantage. That's not true for Nostalgia. That's not true for any progamer map with balanced stats that I can think of, including Requiem. Unforgiving? Yes. Imbalanced? No. There's a huge difference. One is caused by your own inability, the other is innate.
3. Face it: the map being hard for you doesn't make it terrible. Your style is very tank heavy, very gas expensive, and revolves around making that big push. Nostalgia is a bad map for that kind of style unless you can get to the point where you completely and utterly turtle up the center (and to get there, you need to make a timed push out). To be honest, I also play a very tank heavy TvP and I used to suck balls at Nostalgia until I borrowed a timing push strategy from a friend of mine.
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most balanced map ever is probably luna, actually any map that makes it harder for terran should potentially be m ore balanced . And as far as the terran domination... WHY U THINK TERRAN DOMINATED EARLY STARCRAFT? ILL TELL YOU... VALHALLA, CHAR, JUNGLE STORY, NEW NO WAY OUT, LOST TEMPLE, AND RIVER OF FLAMES.
i hope all you terran users choke on ur next all beef meatlog.
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oops dident mean to bump o.o i forgot i was looking though old post >< sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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didnt mean to bump?
that was a long reply -_-
but its a good thread except krohm being a trashbag to incontrol who totally owns
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On January 07 2009 01:12 rekluce wrote:
oops dident mean to bump o.o i forgot i was looking though old post >< sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyy
When I read your username, it makes me think "Rek is loose".
Hmm.....a loose teddybear =O
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This blog is garbage.
It's just Artosis making excuses for all his losses on Nostalgia.
=(
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Haha the final line was good.
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rofl, i remember this thread.
It's sooooo much better now that it was put into words.
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el oh el
It's like a plague, but a good one (these vids that is).
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On May 01 2008 10:37 Hot_Bid wrote:
Thanks to this post Nostalgia will auto-add to mappool of TSL2
You did not deliver!
LOL thats awesome
And auto-mine is for bad games!
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