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NY Times: Elite Colleges Reporting Record Lows in Admission
2008 Harvard Undergraduate Admission Stats
Total number of applicants: 27462
Acceptance rate: 7.1%
Estimated number of admittance: 1950
Estimated number of applicants who scored a perfect score on SAT verbal: 2500
Estimated number of applicants who scored a perfect score on SAT math: 3300
Estimated number of applicants who are valedictorians in their high school class: 3300
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Here is a bit of my own complaint:
My own sister, who is a graduating high school senior, has an academic average of 100.2 (Ranked 7th out of a graduating class of roughly 1100) and a SAT composite score of 2000. She is the captain of her lacrosse team, the vice president of a school club, and a member of the National Honor Society.
And her college application results? She did not get into one single Ivy(She applied to 5). Not even Northwestern or Johns Hopkins accepted her.
Tough luck? Yeah.
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Here is some interesting college related information I've obtained after talking with her:
There is one student who is admitted into Harvard due to her outstanding performance in track, despite her rather inferior academic standing.
Then there is another student who is also an excellent track runner, and he happens to be African-American. Despite his mediocre academic standing, he was admitted into multiple Ivy League Universities.
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So...
The moral of the story is,
If you want your future kids to be successful, marry a black woman and make your kids run.
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On April 03 2008 09:26 KH1031 wrote:
So...
The moral of the story is,
If you want your future kids to be successful, marry a black woman and make your kids run.
So I'm not successful if I don't go to an Ivy League School?
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[Edit: I'm sorry, that was rather trollish and out of character for me. I'm annoyed by sources totally unrelated to this blog or this forum.]
On the topic, I think it's a load of shit.
As a minority, affirmative action instances like this make an unconvincing case of real equality for me. Frankly, the whole affirmative action thing is just plain fucking offensive. I don't need your fucking hand-me-downs or pity parties.
I'm really sorry for your sister!
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She didn't get a 2400.
How many of those people do you think got a 2400 with the same amount of extracurriculars? I would guess a lot. If she is really hot stuff, another school will pick her up and give her better scholarship money to entice her into going.
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So what school did your sister get into?
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Going to an Ivy does not guarantee success.
My friend was ranked 70 or 80 out of 200 something in an elite academy in our county and got 2380's.
Got rejected to all ivies
My other friend, got in every single Ivy, including Stanford. Why? He was not only smart, but he was also a math genius (went international competitions, etc)
When it comes to Ivy competition, it's not just grades and SAT. Those high grades are really required but what allows someone to get in is also based on his or her extracurriculars.
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I got accepted to University of Pittsburgh on the sole basis that I'm mexican and I used that to my advantage even wrote it down on my personal essay. 
But I do think it is a bit unfair that they do that minority thing. My friend applied to the same schools I did and he hasn't gotten any info back yet, he sent his things in one week earlier than I did. We have the same accomplishments of not contributing anything to society. His GPA is slightly higher than mine, but his white so I guess he's not special enough to distinct himself to from all the other million americans that applied.
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i hope the people that got into multiple ivies make you feel bad.
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Being a disabled, first nations woman who is the first from her family to attend university will probably get you about a million dollars here in Canada.
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I will say that 10 people in my school are going to princeton and another 10 are going to dartmouth out of my class of 700
and this is a public school in the northeast (not new york)
and im the only one going to u chicago -_-
i will say that out of the 10 people, 2 were "mexican" (i.e. 1/128th hispanic) and 3 were sports recruits.
although sat average in our school is like 2200...
if it makes you feel better i was waitlisted at cornell and northwestern and didnt get into any ivies
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meh. affirmative action is retarded as hell
this black girl who was really plain in all things extracurricular and had worse grades than me got into princeton probably based solely on her skin color. (although i didn't apply ;P.)
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I think there's just a lot of random chance involved in who they pick. I mean it must be hard to really tell who are the best students from those stupid applications.
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On April 03 2008 10:31 paper wrote:
meh. affirmative blacktion is retarded as hell
agree
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United States22883 Posts
What's retarded is that you're judging your sisters' intelligence based on her class rank and SAT scores, which are honestly not very impressive. Harvard generally requires a 2100 minimum, and schools are looking less and less at those numbers anyways.
Some of the dumbest mother fuckers I knew in high school had a 4.0 and were in NHS. Essays and interviews are a huge part of admissions these days, which is a good thing. The ones who got in probably impressed them during their interviews, or have a super sweet jump shot.
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Top colleges look for things that set you apart from everyone else. Those track runners are probably successful on a national/international level. I'm sure your sister's intelligent and all but she has nothing that remotely sets her apart from the masses.
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Another thing I've noticed that isn't being mentioned here is ALUMNI. If your daddy and his daddy went to Harvard, guess what? Your chances of being admitted just increased a tenfold.
Pretty sweet, huh?
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OH GOD WHY DO I HAVE TO GRADUATE THIS YEAR
I ONLY GOT INTO TWO COLLEGES SO FAR T_T_T_T
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On April 03 2008 11:05 Equinox_kr wrote:
OH GOD WHY DO I HAVE TO GRADUATE THIS YEAR
I ONLY GOT INTO TWO COLLEGES SO FAR T_T_T_T
watch, theyll be like NO SORRY WE DONT LIKE YOU BAI.
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On April 03 2008 09:31 Rayzorblade wrote:
[Edit: I'm sorry, that was rather trollish and out of character for me. I'm annoyed by sources totally unrelated to this blog or this forum.]
On the topic, I think it's a load of shit.
As a minority, affirmative action instances like this make an unconvincing case of real equality for me. Frankly, the whole affirmative action thing is just plain fucking offensive. I don't need your fucking hand-me-downs or pity parties.
I'm really sorry for your sister!
There are many people who do need it though. Many people who are smart enough to get into those schools if they were raised in affluent areas. However, I think too many colleges overplay affirmative action, as they want to be politically correct. Affirmative action was supposed to be a beneficial tool that many private institutions have completely fucked up. Now any success most black students have at these top schools are overshadowed by the fact that "they only got in because they're black" or "they only got this grant because they're black."
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
it's already be said several times, but having good grades and a high sat score is honestly pretty plain these days. people don't realize that and bitch about not getting into ivies - what do they expect? make yourself unique.
on a side note, it doesn't matter much where you go for undergrad even if you aspire for very good med or law schools. tell your sister to work hard wherever she ends up and learn something from these rejections, everything works out.
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Honestly, it should be apparent by now to everyone applying elite schools that the whole process is a huge game and having excellent grades/test scores and being captain of a sports team doesn't mean much.
No one really deserves getting into an elite school solely on the basis of their SATs or GPA anyway. Those don't tell an admissions committee anything.
On April 03 2008 11:02 Romance_us wrote:
Another thing I've noticed that isn't being mentioned here is ALUMNI. If your daddy and his daddy went to Harvard, guess what? Your chances of being admitted just increased a tenfold.
Pretty sweet, huh?
Legacy is fair game in my opinion. If you donated 4 years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars of your family's money to a school, the school does owe your kids a better shot of being accepted. Legacy may piss you off as an applicant, but once you're in I guarantee your views will change at least a little bit. Hindsight is 20/20
Also legacy really doesn't guarantee shit anymore. I know plenty of people who got rejected from great schools despite having 2/3 generations of legacy.
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United States24700 Posts
Dear god I almost got into an argument about affirmative action being good or bad... ._.
And no, it is not retarded, but I disagree with it strongly.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
sat was a bit low, but the basic problem is increased applications.
best solution is to bring the ivy prestige down to earth.
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Ivy League schools are jokes. It is much, much easier to get into an Ivy league school than it is to get into a top level conservatory or arts college. 7% acceptance, so what? Eastman's acceptance rate for music composition is less than 2%. I don't even want to think of Julliard's acceptance rate, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 1% for several of its programs.
It's not like the ivy league schools are so much better than other schools, either. UC Berkeley is just as good as many Ivy leagues (perhaps not Harvard or Princeton, but still), and there are tons of small colleges that can provide the education and opportunities that the Ivy Leagues offer.
Conclusion: Prestige is all just a mindset.
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A few things that I'd like to add here:
About your sister- I'm sorry about her situation, but, well, this is life. A lot of people face this kind of disappointment every year, and it's pretty rough. I hope she gets over it soon, and does great at university. An "elite" school doesn't guarantee success, and a "mediocre" one doesn't doom you to blue-collar work.
Also, in reply to all these people chiming in with their "personal stories" - how do you know? It certainly doesn't seem like you knew these minorities that well personally. How do you know if they didn't write an especially touching essay, or did had some difficult background to overcome - how? Affirmative action does give rise to these two problems: one one hand, it allows certain people to "cheat" the system, and on the other, it encourages this sort of resentment toward minorities.
But- what about it? People are their own people, and not just a set of numbers. It's not just what you could do when people handed you tasks and told you to do them; it's also what you can take into your own hands and create something more. High school is such a short period in our lives; does it really matter then, if this person took AP calculus, and this person didn't yet? Ten years from now, will taking a class a few years ahead give a significant advantage to the former? This is one of the difficult problems that admissions officers have to answer, and, at least at my school, I feel that they've done a great job. I mean, a freshman class here is pretty darn varied. Sure, it's a little on the academic side, and there are plenty of people who come in with lots of advanced credit or university experience under their belts, but there are also those who never have before. But they're smart, and they've got great work ethic (yes, there happen to be more underrepresented minorities in this group). And you know what? After two years, save for the ubiquitous group of elite kids who never left the top, you can't really tell the two groups apart.
I feel that there are two very different views on the way college admissions should be done. It seems that people have been championing one view in this thread, that one should be judged almost exclusively on the quality of their achievements (though titles like "captain" and "president" are meaningless without concrete evidence that you did things. But the college admissions officers have more responsibility than that. They don't just admit people with numbers and trophies; if things were done like that, we could have long replaced an admissions panel with a set of programs. They have to use their judgment too, when they see the human side of applicants. And this type of judgment is hard to come by. It's difficult to figure out if this person will be the same student they were in high school and excel at college life... or if they'll end up the same as in high school.
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United States20661 Posts
Affirmative action really is trashy.
Yes, I'm bitter as an Asian male with a 4.3 GPA, 2400 SAT I, several 800s, 780s, and 750s on my SAT IIs, 7 5's on AP tests, etc.
Also captain of speech/debate team, varsity cross country/track runner, President of 3 school clubs, assistant editor of school paper, Chinese school top of class, piano MTAC top level, National Honor Scholar, National Merit Scholar, Presidential Scholar, National AP Scholar
I got into 0/4 Ivies, 0/4 other private schools applied to. I received admission to UC Berkeley and UC Los Angeles, (neither of which factor race into application).
Where will your sister be attending next year ?
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those essays must have killed you then, LR. but i guess your 4.3 is a bit on the low side too.
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United States20661 Posts
4.3 is a tad low, yeah.
Essay-wise, I think they were fine. I blame my GPA - which basically means it was my fault for not working hard enough.
I mean, sure, part of it might be the admissions process, but I do think I could have done better.
Ah well, UCLA and UCB are decent.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
racial affirmative action is not all that bad, since the american race situation is how it is, the racial tension is imaginary but nevertheless the form with which people understand their situations. so gestures like aa are necessary to achieve some trust. more sensible policy wont be satisfactory unless the racial tension resolves.
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Yeah, I would have expected you to have gotten into more places. But hey... all that's said and done now. Work hard in College (maybe a little less SC?), and you'll be golden.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
berkeley is pretty damn good.
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Like someone else said, it was the SAT. 2000 is pretty low. It makes me wonder if she got her high academic average because she wasn't in any AP courses, which would have definitely shown higher SAT grades at the expense of a lower GPA; if she wasn't, then that could be a even more important reason why she didn't get in. APs are almost mandatory nowadays for high-end schools, and SAT IIs don't hurt.
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On April 03 2008 14:43 Last Romantic wrote:
Affirmative action really is trashy.
Yes, I'm bitter as an Asian male with a 4.3 GPA, 2400 SAT I, several 800s, 780s, and 750s on my SAT IIs, 7 5's on AP tests, etc.
Also captain of speech/debate team, varsity cross country/track runner, President of 3 school clubs, assistant editor of school paper, Chinese school top of class, piano MTAC top level, National Honor Scholar, National Merit Scholar, Presidential Scholar, National AP Scholar
I got into 0/4 Ivies, 0/4 other private schools applied to. I received admission to UC Berkeley and UC Los Angeles, (neither of which factor race into application).
Where will your sister be attending next year ?
Wow, that's absolutely ridiculous.
I'm an Asian Male with a slightly lower GPA and SAT, and my ECs are far worse than yours are. Yet I at least got a W at cornell and you didn't get into any schools besides the UC's. WTF.
what might have happened is the mid level private schools you applied to figured you would get into an Ivy and go there, and so denied you for their "yield." then the ivys didnt take you in b/c they're balls, and you got screwed by the "Tufts Syndrome" US News and World Report Rankings.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 03 2008 15:29 Last Romantic wrote:
4.3 is a tad low, yeah.
Essay-wise, I think they were fine. I blame my GPA - which basically means it was my fault for not working hard enough.
I mean, sure, part of it might be the admissions process, but I do think I could have done better.
Ah well, UCLA and UCB are decent.
I don't know. It's not like places like Stanford or Harvard are blinded by political correctness. Obviously I can't say for certain, but I think there was probably more you could've done. Did you go have interviews everywhere?
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On April 03 2008 11:16 Raithed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2008 11:05 Equinox_kr wrote:
OH GOD WHY DO I HAVE TO GRADUATE THIS YEAR
I ONLY GOT INTO TWO COLLEGES SO FAR T_T_T_T watch, theyll be like NO SORRY WE DONT LIKE YOU BAI.
:<
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On April 03 2008 13:25 Sunyveil wrote:
Ivy League schools are jokes. It is much, much easier to get into an Ivy league school than it is to get into a top level conservatory or arts college. 7% acceptance, so what? Eastman's acceptance rate for music composition is less than 2%. I don't even want to think of Julliard's acceptance rate, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 1% for several of its programs.
It's not like the ivy league schools are so much better than other schools, either. UC Berkeley is just as good as many Ivy leagues (perhaps not Harvard or Princeton, but still), and there are tons of small colleges that can provide the education and opportunities that the Ivy Leagues offer.
Conclusion: Prestige is all just a mindset.
??
Juilliard/Eastman/NEC/Cleveland etc etc. all have low acceptance rates mostly because 3/4 of the people auditioning for them shouldn't be auditioning in the first place. A lot of it also has to do with whether or not you've had lessons with the professors you're auditioning for, whether you showed improvement, how you responded to the prof's teaching, etc. If you want a truly low acceptance rate, look at Curtis, some years they'll have several studios with 0% acceptance (like their oboe studio last year, lol).
Getting into college is harder and harder now, kids are just going insane on grades and extracurrics :x
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On April 03 2008 14:43 Last Romantic wrote:
Affirmative action really is trashy.
Yes, I'm bitter as an Asian male with a 4.3 GPA, 2400 SAT I, several 800s, 780s, and 750s on my SAT IIs, 7 5's on AP tests, etc.
Also captain of speech/debate team, varsity cross country/track runner, President of 3 school clubs, assistant editor of school paper, Chinese school top of class, piano MTAC top level, National Honor Scholar, National Merit Scholar, Presidential Scholar, National AP Scholar
I got into 0/4 Ivies, 0/4 other private schools applied to. I received admission to UC Berkeley and UC Los Angeles, (neither of which factor race into application).
Where will your sister be attending next year ?
You got rejected from everywhere because your transcript reads like a robot. I think you'd be more suited to go to a CalTech or an MIT than an Ivy. Like others have said above, there is no "formula" for getting into an ivy league or else automated robots would be the ones operating admissions. It's about whether or not your achievements were a prediction of how successful you will be and how much you will grow (passion plays a big part in this and can be seen in admissions essays/interviews/recommendations) in college or if they were simply a means to an ends to getting into a good college. Sounds like the admissions committees saw your apps as the latter. sorry bud.
I don't want to seem like I'm putting myself on my pedestal, but this is just coming from someone who was admitted to Harvard, Cornell, Yale, AND Juilliard.
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On April 04 2008 02:01 Billabong[LovE] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2008 14:43 Last Romantic wrote:
Affirmative action really is trashy.
Yes, I'm bitter as an Asian male with a 4.3 GPA, 2400 SAT I, several 800s, 780s, and 750s on my SAT IIs, 7 5's on AP tests, etc.
Also captain of speech/debate team, varsity cross country/track runner, President of 3 school clubs, assistant editor of school paper, Chinese school top of class, piano MTAC top level, National Honor Scholar, National Merit Scholar, Presidential Scholar, National AP Scholar
I got into 0/4 Ivies, 0/4 other private schools applied to. I received admission to UC Berkeley and UC Los Angeles, (neither of which factor race into application).
Where will your sister be attending next year ? You got rejected from everywhere because your transcript reads like a robot. I think you'd be more suited to go to a CalTech or an MIT than an Ivy. Like others have said above, there is no "formula" for getting into an ivy league or else automated robots would be the ones operating admissions. It's about whether or not your achievements were a prediction of how successful you will be and how much you will grow (passion plays a big part in this and can be seen in admissions essays/interviews/recommendations) in college or if they were simply a means to an ends to getting into a good college. Sounds like the admissions committees saw your apps as the latter. sorry bud. I don't want to seem like I'm putting myself on my pedestal, but this is just coming from someone who was admitted to Harvard, Cornell, Yale, AND Juilliard.
good job, asshole ^^
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Caltech and MIT don't just admit "robot" students, either; don't simplify them to just that. Unless you're an uber robot (and those are pretty common around these schools). Caltech seems to admit people off of their fascination with science; not because they got high scores on these standardized tests (unless they were the USAMO or something). And MIT admissions is a little less tech-y than that.
But, of course, this is just from the people I've talked to, and the ones who did and didn't get into those schools.
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United States20661 Posts
Caltech and MIT definitely aren't pure robot schools. Yes, there are people there that are, but my image of the top IT student isn't that of a high-test high-grade one. Maybe it's just the people there that I know.
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High grades and test scores don't mean anything anymore, they're just the minimum for all the top schools getting thrown around here. You need other stuff that no one else can say they have. Honestly, everyone that applies to the top Ivies, MIT, whatever all have the grades and scores, or else I don't even know why they're bothering. I can tell you if you're a finalist in Intel or Siemens Westinghouse, you'll get in to pretty much any school you apply to, even if you have a B- average. Or do some research at a lab and get your name published. Seriously, colleges look for things your doing out of school, not just in it.
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On April 04 2008 06:13 Mx.DeeP wrote:
High grades and test scores don't mean anything anymore, they're just the minimum for all the top schools getting thrown around here. You need other stuff that no one else can say they have. Honestly, everyone that applies to the top Ivies, MIT, whatever all have the grades and scores, or else I don't even know why they're bothering. I can tell you if you're a finalist in Intel or Siemens Westinghouse, you'll get in to pretty much any school you apply to, even if you have a B- average. Or do some research at a lab and get your name published. Seriously, colleges look for things your doing out of school, not just in it.
not everyone does a crapload of science/math LOL?
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I don't see why you brought up race in the initial post.
You had two examples of people who made it into ivies.
One was a girl (race unmentioned) who was good at running.
One was a guy (race mentioned) who was good at running.
I mean, if anything, you ought to conclude from that data set that race doesn't matter; running, however, does.
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On April 03 2008 15:29 Last Romantic wrote:
4.3 is a tad low, yeah.
Essay-wise, I think they were fine. I blame my GPA - which basically means it was my fault for not working hard enough.
I mean, sure, part of it might be the admissions process, but I do think I could have done better.
Ah well, UCLA and UCB are decent.
DECENT?
THEY'RE AMAZING SCHOOLS!!! Haha seriously
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United States24700 Posts
On April 04 2008 02:01 Billabong[LovE] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2008 14:43 Last Romantic wrote:
Affirmative action really is trashy.
Yes, I'm bitter as an Asian male with a 4.3 GPA, 2400 SAT I, several 800s, 780s, and 750s on my SAT IIs, 7 5's on AP tests, etc.
Also captain of speech/debate team, varsity cross country/track runner, President of 3 school clubs, assistant editor of school paper, Chinese school top of class, piano MTAC top level, National Honor Scholar, National Merit Scholar, Presidential Scholar, National AP Scholar
I got into 0/4 Ivies, 0/4 other private schools applied to. I received admission to UC Berkeley and UC Los Angeles, (neither of which factor race into application).
Where will your sister be attending next year ? You got rejected from everywhere because your transcript reads like a robot. I think you'd be more suited to go to a CalTech or an MIT than an Ivy. Like others have said above, there is no "formula" for getting into an ivy league or else automated robots would be the ones operating admissions. It's about whether or not your achievements were a prediction of how successful you will be and how much you will grow (passion plays a big part in this and can be seen in admissions essays/interviews/recommendations) in college or if they were simply a means to an ends to getting into a good college. Sounds like the admissions committees saw your apps as the latter. sorry bud. I don't want to seem like I'm putting myself on my pedestal, but this is just coming from someone who was admitted to Harvard, Cornell, Yale, AND Juilliard. What was the purpose of this part? To show that you have credibility on this matter, and that we should believe you? Well, if you want to claim you had that special something that got you into the top schools, then tell us what it was. If you could link that rude statement to real proof of your original claim, then the fact that what you are doing is insensitive can be overlooked by the fact that you are providing the truth about a situation that you really can't provide and relate to your own life without being insensitive.
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On April 04 2008 09:13 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2008 02:01 Billabong[LovE] wrote:On April 03 2008 14:43 Last Romantic wrote:
Affirmative action really is trashy.
Yes, I'm bitter as an Asian male with a 4.3 GPA, 2400 SAT I, several 800s, 780s, and 750s on my SAT IIs, 7 5's on AP tests, etc.
Also captain of speech/debate team, varsity cross country/track runner, President of 3 school clubs, assistant editor of school paper, Chinese school top of class, piano MTAC top level, National Honor Scholar, National Merit Scholar, Presidential Scholar, National AP Scholar
I got into 0/4 Ivies, 0/4 other private schools applied to. I received admission to UC Berkeley and UC Los Angeles, (neither of which factor race into application).
Where will your sister be attending next year ? You got rejected from everywhere because your transcript reads like a robot. I think you'd be more suited to go to a CalTech or an MIT than an Ivy. Like others have said above, there is no "formula" for getting into an ivy league or else automated robots would be the ones operating admissions. It's about whether or not your achievements were a prediction of how successful you will be and how much you will grow (passion plays a big part in this and can be seen in admissions essays/interviews/recommendations) in college or if they were simply a means to an ends to getting into a good college. Sounds like the admissions committees saw your apps as the latter. sorry bud. I don't want to seem like I'm putting myself on my pedestal, but this is just coming from someone who was admitted to Harvard, Cornell, Yale, AND Juilliard. What was the purpose of this part? To show that you have credibility on this matter, and that we should believe you? Well, if you want to claim you had that special something that got you into the top schools, then tell us what it was. If you could link that rude statement to real proof of your original claim, then the fact that what you are doing is insensitive can be overlooked by the fact that you are providing the truth about a situation that you really can't provide and relate to your own life without being insensitive.
I studied with a teacher at Juilliard, won multiple national violin competitions, and was a top ranked tennis player in the USTA juniors - both things I still do and am passionate about. My admissions essay talked about volunteering in 3rd world central american to help those who couldn't afford medicine/treatment and how it changed my outlook on life. I think that's what made me stand out.
And of course, I had the required stuff like 2380 SAT I, 800 SAT II's, valedictorian, national merit scholar, president of blah blah blah.
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Good for you Billabong, I bet I got into more top schools than you did. But you shouldn't be giving any advice if you claim that MIT is a robot school.
As for the OP, don't worry about any of this shit. Frankly, there's nothing the right person couldn't do without X college. Looking back as a junior now, I wish I could relive these past 3 years elsewhere and put my effort more directly in bettering myself.
The problem with college is that it comes at a point in time when most people have no clue what they want to do with their life other than what has been spoonfed them. In this sense, college is somewhat a scam just to prep recruits for the workplace.
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EPT
