EPT
Why?
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nimysa
United States383 Posts
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Response
United States1938 Posts
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nimysa
United States383 Posts
I'm not trying to deny the reality of people around me -_- | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
The forces of coercion will inevitable be soundly defeated by the boundless will of the people to labor and prosper free of institutionalized oppression. For our strength comes from love for our fellows who endeavor ceaselessly with us to create a society where the means of production are owned by the people and no man may claim something as mundane as "property" to be his. The opposition seeks only to further the extent of his domination. For this reason, our motivation is far greater, and we will defeat the consumerists with love. They think only in terms of power and violence, but we will siege their battlements with kindness and topple their fortresses with understanding. When they see the glory of the revolution they will only be able to fall to their knees and weep openly at the beauty and perfection of the revolution, and we will extend our arms to them in brotherhood like we will to all of the downtrodden. | ||
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geometryb
United States1249 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On March 28 2008 11:49 Ancestral wrote: Comrade I am dismayed by your pessimism. Never hang your head low in sorrow, to do so only shows acquiescence to the capitalist oppressors who enslave the nameless masses! Mankind's struggle against the deceptive wiles of petty bourgeoisie consumerist doctrine has been long and hard; but do not despair. For ours is the way of truth and justice! The forces of coercion will inevitable be soundly defeated by the boundless will of the people to labor and prosper free of institutionalized oppression. For our strength comes from love for our fellows who endeavor ceaselessly with us to create a society where the means of production are owned by the people and no man may claim something as mundane as "property" to be his. The opposition seeks only to further the extent of his domination. For this reason, our motivation is far greater, and we will defeat the consumerists with love. They think only in terms of power and violence, but we will siege their battlements with kindness and topple their fortresses with understanding. When they see the glory of the revolution they will only be able to fall to their knees and weep openly at the beauty and perfection of the revolution, and we will extend our arms to them in brotherhood like we will to all of the downtrodden. hahaha | ||
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French_Toast
United States99 Posts
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On March 28 2008 12:00 French_Toast wrote: Because that's the way human psychology works. The instincts of forming a group and establishing a leader is pre-programmed into every human. The leaders give approval while the followers seek approval, that is how it always worked, and how it always will. As for breeding the leaders get all of the action because the women want to have sex with them for protection. Think about it, if they have sex with the leader and have a baby, the kid and the mom have a better chance of surviving then if the woman had sex with a follower of the leader. Life isn't fair, and that's a good thing .You're making a bold assumption, "psychology works." You also claim humans want to form groups. Collectivist thought leads to just that. A common misconception is that collectivist thought must reject all authority. In a famous analogy by Mikhail Bakunin, he describes how he willingly yields to the authority of the shoemaker and architect in matters that concern their specialization. The basis for any kind of "authority" is based on cooperation however, which has existed from the earliest days of man. You also assume that mankind cannot overcome basic instincts, when he obviously can under numerous circumstances. Your assertion about evolutionary theory, however, is correct. But humans have evolved enough to do many strange things (along with other sentient beings, obviously). | ||
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nimysa
United States383 Posts
As for French Toast, how is life being unfair a good thing anyway? And we can't assume that the women will have a child that is certainly necessarily better then the pack because certain genetic traits may be passed down benefiting or not benefiting the child but the result does not combine the traits inherent in the followers which might help the child/the clan of people in the future or help the entire pack of people as a whole. So the women breeding with the leader may not be the best for them all anyway but you assume so. | ||
Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
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French_Toast
United States99 Posts
On March 28 2008 12:07 Ancestral wrote: You're making a bold assumption, "psychology works." You also claim humans want to form groups. Collectivist thought leads to just that. A common misconception is that collectivist thought must reject all authority. In a famous analogy by Mikhail Bakunin, he describes how he willingly yields to the authority of the shoemaker and architect in matters that concern their specialization. The basis for any kind of "authority" is based on cooperation however, which has existed from the earliest days of man. You also assume that mankind cannot overcome basic instincts, when he obviously can under numerous circumstances. Your assertion about evolutionary theory, however, is correct. But humans have evolved enough to do many strange things (along with other sentient beings, obviously). Of course different people specialize in different things, but there is always the social leader, the Alpha Male. The shoe maker can do his thing but the alpha is still technically in charge. Also, in your second paragraph you said that I do not think humans can overcome their instincts, I never said they couldn't. But don't think for a second humans are any different than other animals, although they do have logic, most of their actions are made without thinking. And the original poster is actually talking about a human social behavior, which hardly involves any logic. Basic interactions are done on deeper levels than logic, and unless people are debating about an issue, during these interactions instincts and the subconscious take over. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
Many modern economies and governments are far superior to those in the past, but it's a continuum. And dictators parading around in the name of communism is no help either, for Marx envisioned a stateless and classless society and the modern communist nations have the largest and most oppressive states with a class of leaders far removed from the people. I would rather say I am an advocate of anarchist collectivist thought, and I make small attempts to live my life this way, i.e. ignoring concepts of "ownership" of capital among my friends (i.e., help them when I can and graciously receive help when I am offered it, buying things for homeless people around my campus (but not giving them money, bad idea)), and though I am not swayed by such antiquated and quixotic notions as worldwide revolution, each time someone does something kind for someone else for no reason other than compassion, the cause of collectivism is advanced. Every human is worthwhile and deserves dignity, respect, and a chance to flourish. Class divisions prevent so many individuals from realizing their potential genius and creativity because they are deprived the basic necessities of life. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On March 28 2008 12:26 French_Toast wrote: Of course different people specialize in different things, but there is always the social leader, the Alpha Male. The shoe maker can do his thing but the alpha is still technically in charge. Also, in your second paragraph you said that I do not think humans can overcome their instincts, I never said they couldn't. But don't think for a second humans are any different than other animals, although they do have logic, most of their actions are made without thinking. And the original poster is actually talking about a human social behavior, which hardly involves any logic. Basic interactions are done on deeper levels than logic, and unless people are debating about an issue, during these interactions instincts and the subconscious take over. I agree that there will be charismatic individuals after whom those with less charisma lust and envy. But that does not automatically lead to oppression. This is part of instinct, but doesn't invariably end in that charismatic individual seeking to reap the fruits of all of his "followers" labor. Some leaders are benevolent. And yes, there may be a "great" shoemaker whom all the other shoemakers themselves revere, but again he can be an insightful and helpful individual rather than the grand leader of the shoemakers who demands utter control over their exploits. And it's important to realize that this individual may be naturally smarter, stronger, harder working, and better looking, but no individual should be deprived decency because they aren't genetic gosus. | ||
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French_Toast
United States99 Posts
On March 28 2008 12:15 nimysa wrote: Ha ha Ancestral, I actually am not a communist and do believe in free market which exactly isn't filling its purpose. As for French Toast, how is life being unfair a good thing anyway? And we can't assume that the women will have a child that is certainly necessarily better then the pack because certain genetic traits may be passed down benefiting or not benefiting the child but the result does not combine the traits inherent in the followers which might help the child/the clan of people in the future or help the entire pack of people as a whole. So the women breeding with the leader may not be the best for them all anyway but you assume so. The mom just cares to survive and have her child be in good hands. All that talk about genes is unneeded due to natural selection. And life being unfair is a good thing because you can gain advantages over everybody else, being rigged isn't a bad thing  . | ||
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nimysa
United States383 Posts
On March 28 2008 12:30 French_Toast wrote: The mom just cares to survive and have her child be in good hands. All that talk about genes is unneeded due to natural selection. And life being unfair is a good thing because you can gain advantages over everybody else, being rigged isn't a bad thing .Natural selection does not mean it will exactly ensure a safe future for the pack. The traits in the followers may not be realized but may be beneficial to the pack in the future depending on the issues that arise for the pack of people to adapt to. In one sense, natural selection is flawed as its more of an attitude from females toward males to which the females choose the males on the basis of traits they deem necessary for the future children; but it really does ensure the best traits for the children to adapt to, for future issues. We are of course talking about sentient beings. In one sense, if the females interbreed with specific types of males, so much because for this specific attitude or trait that certainly makes the domineering male appealing or sociopathic in a sense; they are also certainly endangering the species because the future outcomes will not adhere to specialization of these genetic traits while essentially keeping the species back due to the pack's majority inherence of this genetic trait through the males dominance and stalling adaptability. This entirely defeats the purpose to which natural selection is aimed for, ensuring the survival of the entire species, because through the majority of the females breeding with the dominant male, it blocks new genetic traits for adaption. This is what separates humans from other intelligent animals and species because human females choose from a wide selection of partners not just the specific dominant male; although, this is arguable as mostly, its the contrary, but still depending heavily on the environment and highly circumstantial. | ||
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KaasZerg
Netherlands927 Posts
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nimysa
United States383 Posts
But please everyone do be free and say your opinion in any holes in this matter as I will accept any criticism | ||
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vhallee
899 Posts
On March 28 2008 11:42 GoSuPlAyEr wrote: Welcome to earth, enjoy your stay. end of story. | ||
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