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[H]Daily workout advice

Blogs > Track
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Track
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States217 Posts
March 19 2008 20:31 GMT
#1
These come along every so often, and now it's me who's seeking the help of tl with working out and getting in shape.

So, I'm looking to get in shape, lose some body fat, gain some muscle, that whole deal. I don't have an extensive weight set, just about thirty pound adjustable weights. If possible, could you guys tell your own workout regimens and how I should start? I'm not overweight, I just want to get in tip top shape for summer. I'll follow up here on what I'm doing so I stay accountable. Any and all assistance is immensely appreciated!

Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-19 21:00:25
March 19 2008 20:49 GMT
#2
http://www.exrx.net/

That site is pretty extensive in my opinion. I'd read their sections on workout basics. The best way is to keep a schedule and record your results so you make sure you're making progress and can also gain confidence in the fact that you've become stronger. That site has sample routines, and I could outline some, but it's probably best to find a friend who has experience with weightlifting so he can show you IRL how to do things.

Basically, when I'm not preparing for certain things (maxing, foot races etc) I do basic splits, kind of like this:

Monday
Chest:
Barbell Bench
Weighted Dips
Back:
Barbell Pullovers
Good Mornings
Machine Rows

Tuesday
Run 3~4 miles

Wednesday
Legs:
Squat
Leg Curls
Sumo Deadlifts
Arms/Back:
Skull Crushers
Wide Grip Pull Ups

Thursday:
Run 3-4 Miles

Friday:
Back:
Deadlifts
Back Hyperextensions
Chest:
Dumbell bench press
Pulldowns
Shoulders:
Lateral Raises

That's just a "maintenance" style routine. Every has different opinions, listen to theirs too and formulate something for yourself based on your desires.

Edit: I didn't factor in your lack of equipment, but it doesn't matter. You can still work out every body part, and there are variations on the exercises above. The exercise and muscle directory on that site will help you. Never underestimate the usefulness of body weight exercises either.
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
March 19 2008 21:16 GMT
#3
I think motivation is a big issue for most people (for me, at least). So whatever you do, make sure you have a set routine to follow. Don't ever skip a day because you're tired or you came up with an ingenious excuse. Just keep following your routine until it becomes a habbit and you feel weird if you don't work out.
Official Entusman #21
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-19 21:22:30
March 19 2008 21:20 GMT
#4
If you wanted to get in shape for the summer, you should've started before January. ^^ Seriously, you can lose some fat in that time but you're not going to gain sizable muscle mass in the first couple months.

I changed up my routine based on some of the advice here and I think it's working out.

Elliptical 3-6 per week, 30 minutes of High intensity interval training
Weight lifting 5 days a week, but different muscle groups each day. You can come up with that on your own or look up some cycle online. I go to a gym, so I can't really give you any ideas on what to do without equipment.
Sometimes a slideboard at home and when it gets warmer I'll start roller blading and playing basketball.

Start eating well. I'm not sure what your eating options are, but eating is an important as well.

Push yourself as much as you can. Don't be dangerous about it, but it's ok to be a bit masochistic in the gym.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24680 Posts
March 19 2008 21:22 GMT
#5
On March 20 2008 06:16 infinity21 wrote:
I think motivation is a big issue for most people (for me, at least).
Yeah I have great difficulty motivating myself to do something for exercise purposes. It's not simply that I'm lazy, I mean, in college I'd go play basketball whenever the other guys were going, but I went to the 'gym' to 'workout' like once a year.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Track
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States217 Posts
March 19 2008 21:50 GMT
#6
On March 20 2008 06:20 Jibba wrote:
If you wanted to get in shape for the summer, you should've started before January. ^^ Seriously, you can lose some fat in that time but you're not going to gain sizable muscle mass in the first couple months.

I changed up my routine based on some of the advice here and I think it's working out.

Elliptical 3-6 per week, 30 minutes of High intensity interval training
Weight lifting 5 days a week, but different muscle groups each day. You can come up with that on your own or look up some cycle online. I go to a gym, so I can't really give you any ideas on what to do without equipment.
Sometimes a slideboard at home and when it gets warmer I'll start roller blading and playing basketball.

Start eating well. I'm not sure what your eating options are, but eating is an important as well.

Push yourself as much as you can. Don't be dangerous about it, but it's ok to be a bit masochistic in the gym.



It's not so much that I want to get much different before summer, but just that I may as well make a change now rather than later.
Yeah, I really have some motivational issues too but I think my willpower can overcome them. We'll just see. I'm about to go to the wal*mart to pick up some stuff, then i'm going running for a couple miles. It's a start!
Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
zachmorris
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States106 Posts
March 19 2008 22:39 GMT
#7
I have said this before, but rock climbing is a great workout and also very fun. Just a thought.
I hate zach morris
HamerD
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1922 Posts
March 19 2008 22:53 GMT
#8
diet diet diet diet diet diet DIET

OMG it's really all about the diet .

All exercises and motivation are GREAT :D but you HAVE to get a perfect diet or it is all POINTLESS!!!!

Plus, losing weight + adding muscle mass is usually of course worked on separately, so if I were you I would work on getting a six-pack and a nice lean physique, and look towards building mass around august/october until early january.

But diet is SO important! You need to eat just the right amount of the right stuff, get used to not being fully satisfied, drink a lot of water, etc etc. Start the day with an oat breakfast, some carbs in the midday, some protein before and after exercise and perhaps eggs/ beans on toast, lean mince or chicken for dinner. White fish, tuna, chicken are your friends . Gogo!
"Oh no, we've drawn Judge Schneider" "Is that bad?" "Well, he's had it in for me ever since I kinda ran over his dog" "You did?" "Yeah...if you replace the word *kinda* with *repeatedly*...and the word *dog* with son"
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
March 19 2008 23:20 GMT
#9
just run a lot... it works better than you'd think OO;
4-6 miles.. after a week you'll think its not so bad if you take a different routes... But running on the track for 4-6 miles is just painfull...
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
Track
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States217 Posts
March 19 2008 23:48 GMT
#10
Yeah, I just ran for a couple miles and I feel like death. Must mean I'm doing something right. Haha. Should I be doing cardio every day along with weights or stagger them?
Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
HamerD
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1922 Posts
March 20 2008 00:11 GMT
#11
yeah cardio every day if you can.

Also start every weights session with a 10 minute run at a good pace, and intercede the following weights with like 2 1000metre rowing machine things. Unless you aren't going to a gym.

Start each muscle exercise day with some pushups (30, 20, 10), dips (15, 10, 5) and pullups (5, 5, 5) would be nice if you buy a telescopic bar .

But I really advise that you eat properly, for anyone but like 10% of people who have sick metabolism, you need to diet + exercise. When I did karate there were loads of VERY fit, unbelievably, fighting fit POWERHOUSES who were just lethal and could go for like 3 times as much as me; who had big bellies and looked unfit. Cardio is all very well and good but to get quick weight loss you need to do cardio + diet and there is a difference between basic cardio and weight loss cardio.

My friend hardcore dieted with cucumber, carrot, some egg, tuna, chicken, wholegrain rice, etc as his only real food. No sugar or burger king. he went from like 16 stone to 12 and looking great in about 2 months. He ran every day and dieted perfectly.

Make sure you work your abs every day/ missing a couple days out here and there, because they recover quickly and you can get to a six pack quickly. As I found out when i did karate.
"Oh no, we've drawn Judge Schneider" "Is that bad?" "Well, he's had it in for me ever since I kinda ran over his dog" "You did?" "Yeah...if you replace the word *kinda* with *repeatedly*...and the word *dog* with son"
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-20 00:47:04
March 20 2008 00:44 GMT
#12
On March 20 2008 07:53 HamerD wrote:
diet diet diet diet diet diet DIET

OMG it's really all about the diet .

All exercises and motivation are GREAT :D but you HAVE to get a perfect diet or it is all POINTLESS!!!!

Plus, losing weight + adding muscle mass is usually of course worked on separately, so if I were you I would work on getting a six-pack and a nice lean physique, and look towards building mass around august/october until early january.

But diet is SO important! You need to eat just the right amount of the right stuff, get used to not being fully satisfied, drink a lot of water, etc etc. Start the day with an oat breakfast, some carbs in the midday, some protein before and after exercise and perhaps eggs/ beans on toast, lean mince or chicken for dinner. White fish, tuna, chicken are your friends . Gogo!

Yeah... I disagree completely.

Diet (not the commercial use of the term diet, but just what you eat) is important, especially when you're nearing in on your goal, but it's still about caloric deficit and you don't need to eat horribly bland food to gain muscle or lose weight. Back home I ate Qdoba burritos (no rice) + Royal Espresso Cafe for meals 3 days a week and I made a lot of progress. At school my food choices are even worse, but I'm still doing fairly well.

I don't mean that you should gorge yourself on pizza, I still stay away from fried foods, creams, beef and I make sure I'm getting sufficient healthy carbs, but I still get to eat dessert and most of the other garbage they serve.

My friend hardcore dieted with cucumber, carrot, some egg, tuna, chicken, wholegrain rice, etc as his only real food. No sugar or burger king. he went from like 16 stone to 12 and looking great in about 2 months. He ran every day and dieted perfectly.
That's not a sustainable lifestyle change and getting enough calories on that diet would be painful. This isn't like you diet just to lose weight for this summer, this is something you keep up your whole life so it should be a system that you can continue.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
HamerD
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1922 Posts
March 20 2008 01:20 GMT
#13
wtf are you on jibba. You sound like you are like me, high metabolism. When I was doing karate and jiu jitsu 7 times a week, I was eating pizza and bakewell tarts aplenty, and still had 6 pack and lean muscle; but people like you and me aren't like everyone and most of the time just falling back on your metabolism will only get you so far as like 22, at which point it will buckle and you will obesify.

Obviously my friend got down to his ideal weight and stayed there and is now a strapping rower for cambridge. Yes you are right that eating that amount would be painful, but it requires effort, a good amount of water consumption and correct eating- NOT starving yourself but not eating too much ever.

To the OP, do what everyone does and NOT what jibba does. Eat healthy, smaller amounts than you usually do. Eat 4-5 small meals a day. Don't snack unless it's on small amounts of nuts or fruit. Get plenty of water and you will see the pounds literally fly off, in combination with good cardio work and of course high-rep weights exercises/ body weight exercises.

Once you are fit and healthy, you can focus on bulking up and you will see results much quicker, MUCH quicker, than if you eat doritos 5 times a week. Another good idea is to drink green tea, it stims up your metabolism .

"Oh no, we've drawn Judge Schneider" "Is that bad?" "Well, he's had it in for me ever since I kinda ran over his dog" "You did?" "Yeah...if you replace the word *kinda* with *repeatedly*...and the word *dog* with son"
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-20 01:56:16
March 20 2008 01:52 GMT
#14
I don't have a high metabolism. I have a 2500-2800 caloric intake and I work out hard to offset it. Doritos and pretty much any chips would be fried btw.

If I were going for a hard 6pack (low body fat %) I'd improve my diet, but that's really not my concern. My main concern is having enough energy for my workouts, and maintaining a good body fat %.

EDIT: I'm not saying eating well isn't important. I already said I monitor what I eat and avoid junk food regularly, but I disagree with you saying working out is for naught unless you eat well. I've found it's the exact opposite. Eating well is worthless unless you're working out and you can still have great success without going to a cucumber and tuna diet.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
MaRiNe23
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States747 Posts
March 20 2008 01:56 GMT
#15
On March 20 2008 09:11 HamerD wrote:
Make sure you work your abs every day/ missing a couple days out here and there, because they recover quickly and you can get to a six pack quickly. As I found out when i did karate.

Can u clarify this sentence? Are u saying u SHOULD work out ur arbs every single day with let's just say crunches or u can miss couple days?
We have competitive ladder, strong community, progaming in Korea going strong, perfectly balanced game..why do we need sc2? #1 ANTI-SC2 fan
byChris
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States99 Posts
March 20 2008 02:06 GMT
#16
Jibba..HamerD is right about diet being the main factor. You can have the best workout program ever and shit results if your diet is shit. You are right if you have a decent metabolism and you go to the gym fairly often that you can still maintain your physique. However, OP only has 30 lb dumb bells..? hardly enough to perform compound movements effectively enough to burn sufficient calories. If you only got 60 lbs total you'd have to perform about 100 reps of any exercise unless you're a complete weight training newb to get a decent workout...If you want to really start working out get a used weight set from a friend or online. Meanwhile the best you can do is probably fix up your diet by partitioning your meals like HamerD stated and eating relatively clean. Building up your bodyweight exercises would also help.
dang.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
March 20 2008 02:14 GMT
#17
It's caloric intake vs. caloric usage. Yeah, if you eat 4500 calories a day you probably won't do well.

And Marine, 6 packs are mostly a product of body fat %, not muscle mass. Your body can probably handle working your abs almost every day but burning fat will have the bigger visible impact on your stomach.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
byChris
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States99 Posts
March 20 2008 02:17 GMT
#18
........ a 6 pack is all about BF%, research shows the magic number is 9.8% in order to see the entire "6 pack". The way your abs actually look however is genetically determined. Getting a 6 pack is easy if your BF% is appropriate, bringing your ab development to the next level however requires a lot more than simply crunching 1000x a day or whatever BS people spout.
dang.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
March 20 2008 02:30 GMT
#19
Yep, that's what I said.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
MaRiNe23
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States747 Posts
March 20 2008 03:00 GMT
#20
So what kinds of foods must i eat to reduce body fat to get to 9.8%. I really want a six pack and im a fairly skinny dude weighing about 140 pounts and 5'7. I been doing crunches 3 days a week for i don't know how long and i really can't see the six pack in my tummy . Can anyone recomemnd me foods that i should eat every week? I'm relaly determined to get a six pack.
We have competitive ladder, strong community, progaming in Korea going strong, perfectly balanced game..why do we need sc2? #1 ANTI-SC2 fan
LuMiX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
China5757 Posts
March 20 2008 21:34 GMT
#21
I am going for a 6 pack also. I started running and doing sit-ups for about 2-3 weeks. So far I'm at running 3 miles in 27:40 min. Goal is to get it by end of summer, but getting the BF% low enough is hard as hell... =/

I run in the morning right after I wake up w/o eating anything. I remember people said this burns the fat the FASTEST, although the setback is it may burn some muscle too. But, I decided whatever is faster to lose the fat NOW I would do that. I can build muscle after I have my 6pack. =P
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
March 21 2008 07:49 GMT
#22
On March 20 2008 11:06 byChris wrote:
Jibba..HamerD is right about diet being the main factor. You can have the best workout program ever and shit results if your diet is shit. You are right if you have a decent metabolism and you go to the gym fairly often that you can still maintain your physique. However, OP only has 30 lb dumb bells..? hardly enough to perform compound movements effectively enough to burn sufficient calories. If you only got 60 lbs total you'd have to perform about 100 reps of any exercise unless you're a complete weight training newb to get a decent workout...If you want to really start working out get a used weight set from a friend or online. Meanwhile the best you can do is probably fix up your diet by partitioning your meals like HamerD stated and eating relatively clean. Building up your bodyweight exercises would also help.

People are different, saying a blanket statement like "diet is most important," is BS. Unless you have a thyroid malfunction or something, you won't just get fat working all the time. Of course, I don't really care about physique since I do power lifting and distance running.

However, metabolism and diet ARE in fact important, but it's important to ensure that your diet keeps your metabolism fast. If you just eat very small amounts of healthy food and exercise a lot, your basal metabolic rate will decrease and you won't lose much weight. High activity and a diet geared toward high activity are important.

There are lots of sites about diet and lifting, I don't care as much since I want to run far and lift heavy weights. I don't know much about body-building style diets or anything, but my body builder buddy ate 6 meals a day, tons of protein and fiber, and was tired all the time. But at least he was ripped.

Again, it's most important to do research, and find out all the variables, what works for you etc. Someone else's plan may not give you results, including mine, for example.
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
Kage
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
India788 Posts
April 03 2008 10:25 GMT
#23
Is there anyway anyone can lose weight without having to jog 6 miles which is really stressful. I need to lose about 20 kilos (thats like 45 pounds) and I know we cant do shortcuts but if there were some exercises we could do at home, would be really nice to know.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
April 03 2008 11:16 GMT
#24
You don't need to go 6 miles to lose weight. You can jog or use an elliptical for just 20-30 minutes each day and eat healthy. You do have to push your heart rate though into a working range.

Getting in shape is extremely simple, but it's not easy.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Kage
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
India788 Posts
April 03 2008 11:53 GMT
#25
Hmm I'll do that. I usually don't have access to the gym closeby (the nearest one to where i live is about 15 kms).. So i was hoping bodyweight and cardio would do good.

But jogging is really stressful on my legs thanks to the weight excess.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32051 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-03 13:43:34
April 03 2008 13:42 GMT
#26
On March 20 2008 12:00 MaRiNe23 wrote:
So what kinds of foods must i eat to reduce body fat to get to 9.8%. I really want a six pack and im a fairly skinny dude weighing about 140 pounts and 5'7. I been doing crunches 3 days a week for i don't know how long and i really can't see the six pack in my tummy . Can anyone recomemnd me foods that i should eat every week? I'm relaly determined to get a six pack.



Basically youve gotta cut out all the bad fats. Processed shit, etc. Good fats should come from nuts (almons and stuff liek that) some from milk is good and you can take fish oil pills as well.

Aside from that, youve gotta have most of your protein coming from good, lean sources. If you love seafood, youre in luck, because most fish is kick ass for this. Chicken is also very good, turkey is pretty good. Carbs should be limited to whole wheat stuff and veggies. Aka, dont eat white breads, rice a roni, pasta (if youre gonna have the last two, its gotta be the whole wheat variety. ) Carbs should be eaten mostly during the day and light at dinner. Always make sure to get some in right after your workout to boost your glycogen (sppppp) levels

edit: if youre drinking, you can forget about a 6pac btw, lol. 6pacs are made in the kitchen, and you wont be helping yourself with that.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32051 Posts
April 03 2008 13:49 GMT
#27
On March 20 2008 05:31 Track wrote:
These come along every so often, and now it's me who's seeking the help of tl with working out and getting in shape.

So, I'm looking to get in shape, lose some body fat, gain some muscle, that whole deal. I don't have an extensive weight set, just about thirty pound adjustable weights. If possible, could you guys tell your own workout regimens and how I should start? I'm not overweight, I just want to get in tip top shape for summer. I'll follow up here on what I'm doing so I stay accountable. Any and all assistance is immensely appreciated!


30lb dumbells arent gonna do a whole lot for ya man. You can definitely lose weight by running and eating better, but its gonna be pretty hard to gain any real muscle mass without going to a gym. Like you can use the dumbells for bi and tri exercise, maybe some shoulder stuff, but that's about it.

Outside of that, do a lot of ab work, push ups, and a lot of pull ups and chin ups. The shitty thing is your body isgonna get used to it really fast and minimize the gains.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32051 Posts
April 03 2008 13:54 GMT
#28
On March 20 2008 09:44 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2008 07:53 HamerD wrote:
diet diet diet diet diet diet DIET

OMG it's really all about the diet .

All exercises and motivation are GREAT :D but you HAVE to get a perfect diet or it is all POINTLESS!!!!

Plus, losing weight + adding muscle mass is usually of course worked on separately, so if I were you I would work on getting a six-pack and a nice lean physique, and look towards building mass around august/october until early january.

But diet is SO important! You need to eat just the right amount of the right stuff, get used to not being fully satisfied, drink a lot of water, etc etc. Start the day with an oat breakfast, some carbs in the midday, some protein before and after exercise and perhaps eggs/ beans on toast, lean mince or chicken for dinner. White fish, tuna, chicken are your friends . Gogo!

Yeah... I disagree completely.

Diet (not the commercial use of the term diet, but just what you eat) is important, especially when you're nearing in on your goal, but it's still about caloric deficit and you don't need to eat horribly bland food to gain muscle or lose weight. Back home I ate Qdoba burritos (no rice) + Royal Espresso Cafe for meals 3 days a week and I made a lot of progress. At school my food choices are even worse, but I'm still doing fairly well.

I don't mean that you should gorge yourself on pizza, I still stay away from fried foods, creams, beef and I make sure I'm getting sufficient healthy carbs, but I still get to eat dessert and most of the other garbage they serve.

Show nested quote +
My friend hardcore dieted with cucumber, carrot, some egg, tuna, chicken, wholegrain rice, etc as his only real food. No sugar or burger king. he went from like 16 stone to 12 and looking great in about 2 months. He ran every day and dieted perfectly.
That's not a sustainable lifestyle change and getting enough calories on that diet would be painful. This isn't like you diet just to lose weight for this summer, this is something you keep up your whole life so it should be a system that you can continue.


You can still lose weight if youre just going to deficit, but its a lot more efficent doing it with a correct diet. Its fine to cheat nwo and then—im a drinker, so basically my weekends im more lax on what i eat—but for a person with average metabolism, you need to stay away from dessert and all that shit for most of the week.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
April 03 2008 17:28 GMT
#29
I see now that I probably didn't clarify myself very well. Half a plate of salad + entree and healthy carb, and dessert would be like a cookie and a glass of skim milk or something. I don't eat like a regular college student, because regular college guys eat horribly, but I still get to enjoy eating and don't do stuff like that awful cucumber diet.
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man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
April 03 2008 21:02 GMT
#30
On April 03 2008 19:25 Haniba wrote:
Is there anyway anyone can lose weight without having to jog 6 miles which is really stressful. I need to lose about 20 kilos (thats like 45 pounds) and I know we cant do shortcuts but if there were some exercises we could do at home, would be really nice to know.

high intensity interval training (HIIT). Not sure if you could do it at home, but if you hate jogging (like me) than it's great. An example is to sprint for 30 sec and then walk/jog for a few minutes. Take it easy at first if you haven't been exercising much lately.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32051 Posts
April 03 2008 22:53 GMT
#31
HIIT is like 30 sec sprint, job (dont walk) for 45 or so. YOure gonna feel like death the first few times, but you get used to it. Minutes puts your heart rate back down and defeats the purpose
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