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Hi, im going to a lan in two days and with the ambition to place first in a wc3 tourney(need a razor diamondback ). I know nearly all players and when i played them on fun lans iIsaw that my mechanics, micro and macro were as good or better then theirs (thx 2 bw <3) and I only lost due to the fact that I have no idea how to play the different matchups (unit counters, what combinations), so i mostly played FE and powered hard.
So im asking you for help, yes you - i don't trust wc3 forums and teamliquid is just the best source for everything.
Everything.
My race is Terran Human and i would be glad if anyone could tell me the standard buils in all matchups and how to encounter stuff, im also watching replays and im gonna play about 50 games for train :D I know the very basics, like Archmage as first hero and stuff, but i just dont know any strat except this mass tower camping and tanks against ud which is pretty funny, but i would love to know an other strat, since this is quite predictable.
Yes most of us are noobs ^^
Im gonna make updates how i do in the tourney if anyone is interested :D
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Practice BW all day and it'll be a flawless victory, guaranteed. We all know being average at BW makes you pro at War3 since it's sooo much worse and we are sooo much better.
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how can i meet up with you, i can help
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Actually applying what you know from Brood War will make you much worse, believe me. You might think that you're better because you've played Brood War. That your micro, macro, and strategical decisions are far superior. But if you thought that it would only be because you're too arrogant to realize how little you actually understand about the game.
Trust me on this, I and most people I know who have had BW experience were the same way. You can't approach the two games in a similar way and expect to beat anyone above a complete nub level. You might actually have better macro, and in all honesty you should. But macro especially isn't the same in War3 as it is in BW, thus making it actually harmful to play it in the same way.
Your first mistake is assuming that you've only lost due to not knowing the matchup or the correct strategies. That's more than likely not the case, because that actually doesn't matter very much in War3 at a lower level. You also seem to have made the mistake of "powering hard", which considering you're a BW player, probably means that you did something that you really shouldn't have. Keep an eye on your supply in respect to upkeep limits, timing the breaking point is pretty important.
As far as strategy and build order goes, just watch replays for that, it's the quickest and easiest way. But pay special attention to creeping patterns and the timing at which the players do particular things, those are two really important factors that will set you apart and help you win far more than superior macro or strategical decisions will. Keep your heroes alive and make sure they level - if you aren't fighting, and you aren't healing, make sure you're creeping.
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ill play today @ 21 C.E.T or sth on europe with the nick ash.WC3TerraN
tomorrow ill paly the whole day - same nick ofc
to simulate LAN environment ill play drunk.
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Well Orlandu, I actually thought they would all beat me quite hard since they played wc3 for years - and i watched just watched some streams from time to time, but i was actually able to beat most of them 50% of the time.
I think one of my advantages is that i play quite micro orientated in sc, so i can keep up with their micro, but for example i didnt even notice that this supply limits are anyhow important :X
thx for your advice im watching some ToD replays right now, any other Human players that you could recommend?
sorry for doublepost
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Yeah if your micro is actually better than theirs, then that's going to help you a lot. It's pretty important in battles.
As for Humans, other than ToD Sky is your best bet. Those two, Infi, and TH000 are the better Humans out there. ToD and Sky are really the ones who define Human though, but be warned that there's usually a lot of towers involved with Human.
For Human your hero combination is gonna stay pretty static, for the most part you'll always want the AM first. The second hero you have a bit of choice with. MK is always a solid pick, Naga can be pretty useful, Panda is good in some situations, and BeastMaster is pretty good against Orc.
Also as I'm sure you've already figured out, Humans almost always fast creep with their militia. You don't always have to fast expand (though it's really good on some maps), but fast creeping with militia is almost always the best opening. It's just so fast and you can take down stronger creeps much sooner.
If you haven't figured it out already, Lost Temple is by far the best Human map. Terenas Stand and Echo Isles are also great for Human. Stay away from maps like Gnoll Wood and Twisted Meadows for the most part.
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So what maps would you advise me to fast expo most of the time, which not
Against what do you build the Panda and why is the beastmaster good against orc? Sorry for asking so stupid, but i just couldnt figure which tavern heros are viable.
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Hungary11297 Posts
1. Fast Expo is usually good on: Lost Temple (duh), Echo Isles
Less recommended on: Twisted Meadows, Terenas Stand, Secret Valley
Near impossible: Turtle Rock
If you want to FE also depends on the matchup, the opponent's hero choice and the map positions. The further away, the better! There are scenarios where staying tier 1 for an extended period of time puts you far behind and therefore allows your opponent to capitalize on it, for example against Undead where you might need HEAVY towers to deal with his fast Destroyers.
2. Panda vs. Beastmaster is a tricky issue. Generally it was accepted that Beastmaster is good vs Orc for two reasons: a) He uses summons and Orc is generally late with dispel / has costly dispel, so mass summons were viable against Orc for quite some time. b) The Beastmaster adds additional HP and Firepower right from when you buy him and early tier 2 is a period where you want to exploit your advantage from your casters as much as possible. If you add a Panda, you will spend some time levelling him up and equipping him, thus resulting in a slower push.
As Orc has tended to rely more and more on Spiritwalkers, Beastmaster has become a less popular choice. Therefore going with the old-fashioned Mountain King is feasible again.
You might quite often want to add a Panda when playing other humans. The Panda can force him essentially to stay mostly on Spellbreakers, giving you the chance to counter those with Knights.
Never get Panda against Undead. Against a Human, UD's staple units are Destroyers and sadly those are immune against Magic.
3. Sometimes when pushing a Nightelf, a Naga can be a wise choice. Mountainking will get burned by the DH, summon heroes are too weak to dryad dispel.
If you find this helpful, feel free to ask more.
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Right when you get your AM + 2 footies. You should be able to fast creep with 4-5 militans on a push.
I think the build order is something like Altar - Barracks - Farm - Lumber Mill - Farm. Once you got at least like 1 foot or 2 foots.
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Since your micro is good but you don't know strats, why don't you just pick one strategy that will allow you to abuse your micro and not worry to much about strategic choices? I'd suggest just going for hardcore archmage harrassment with water elementals/footmen rush every time.
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Hungary11297 Posts
If your micro is godly and you want a safe strat, go for mass rifle / caster. You dance your rifles and just push the hell out of them. Also makes the games end rather fast. Complement these units with MK / Naga.
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On March 18 2008 02:32 Aesop wrote:
If your micro is godly and you want a safe strat, go for mass rifle / caster. You dance your rifles and just push the hell out of them. Also makes the games end rather fast. Complement these units with MK / Naga.
isn't this easily countered by aoe spells?
Thx for all the help, plz more
I ll ask questions later, im first going to play a bit and try to use the bo's i saw from the th000/sky/ToD reps i dl'ed
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On March 17 2008 23:40 asel wrote:
Well Orlandu, I actually thought they would all beat me quite hard since they played wc3 for years - and i watched just watched some streams from time to time, but i was actually able to beat most of them 50% of the time.
Lol, they must suck really hard. I remember playing some guy who was pro at SC (WCG Canada rep) and was getting into War3 at the time. It took him at least a few months of training before he could beat me in WC3, and I was only an above average player at the time (nowhere near pro).
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On March 18 2008 02:51 asel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2008 02:32 Aesop wrote:
If your micro is godly and you want a safe strat, go for mass rifle / caster. You dance your rifles and just push the hell out of them. Also makes the games end rather fast. Complement these units with MK / Naga. isn't this easily countered by aoe spells? Thx for all the help, plz more I ll ask questions later, im first going to play a bit and try to use the bo's i saw from the th000/sky/ToD reps i dl'ed
If the other guy's going lots of AOE, just mix in spell breakers and buy as many healing scrolls at the shop as you can afford (especially when you're near upkeep limit). You'll be loaded anyways if you FE'd.
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Seriously, the audios here are very helpful for anyone getting into WC3. I would listen to at least a couple of them on each matchup, it will give you a good understanding of what to do.
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What caster would you recommend?
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On March 18 2008 04:39 asel wrote:
What caster would you recommend?
Klazart.
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gryphon (d.hawk) + tank powered by masstowered massexpos will beat the shit out of most of your friendly UD noobs
t2 am+bm push will beat the crap out of your nooby ORCs
play oldstyle tower rush against NE, t1 or t2 what suits best each game
against HU, just beat them with the same units they use, u play bw right?
p.s: playing drunk = +100 points
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ok i start my first trainphase now, expect me back with mass whine and questions
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Hungary11297 Posts
On March 18 2008 02:51 asel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2008 02:32 Aesop wrote:
If your micro is godly and you want a safe strat, go for mass rifle / caster. You dance your rifles and just push the hell out of them. Also makes the games end rather fast. Complement these units with MK / Naga. isn't this easily countered by aoe spells? Thx for all the help, plz more I ll ask questions later, im first going to play a bit and try to use the bo's i saw from the th000/sky/ToD reps i dl'ed
Priests / Healing scrolls can be extremly strong keeping your army alive. Generally it is countered once you meet heavy melee like Bears or Abominations. But assuming your micro is better, you might be able to push through at an earlier point. For using rifles in nearly every matchup, refer to replays from Kemper (?), he does just that. Would also keep variety to a minimum for you.
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damn, wc3 games are taking longT___T played 1:20 hour for 2 games ;;
I just encountered a ud player who used a combination of abominations, fiends and statues that was pretty annoying since i thought he would go for Destroyer. Tried to counter it with Knights and Griffins but it was pretty annoying to play him and i think if he would have been a bit better he wouldve easily raped me since my counter didnt really worked out - im playing pretty low ranks ( he was 12, other oppnent 16 hu vs hu) so far, any better combination to take this out?
Also im not quite sure what to play against Orc, i dont really think i can play a fe against them since their units are just better them mine, is teching to tier 2 and going caster + rifler viable in this mu?
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yeah its always annoying to play vs ud, because theyll creep, stay inside base, tech, etc. since youre hu, go mass tower + expo.
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On March 18 2008 05:00 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Klazart.
You're a funny man
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i got totally raped in hu vs hu mirror by 2 mass footys T_T
kinda desperate now, but i think he was jsut the better player im 2-2 right now :3
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Why aren't you practicing with people you know? That's the fastest way to learn, cuz they can give you tips in game and so on and not drag the match longer than 20 min.. I'm sure there's TL people who would offer their help.
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Well im always open for a game, just msg me ash.WC3Terran @ europe
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There are really only two possibilites:
a) They are good wc3 players. Practicing this late won't save your butt.
b) They are bad wc3 players. Find yourself a decent, all-rounded build and beat them with superior execution (micro and macro).
For case (b), nearly anything works. For instance:
T1: AM for WE and BA + Rifles
T2: Add BM for Bear and Boar + Breakers
T3: Add FL for Lava Spawns + Knights
(Good because you don't have to think or micro, just keep spamming all summons and seek conflict. Bad because it isn't a spectacular build and is particularly vulnerable to dispel.)
Or:
T1: AM for WE and BA + Rifles
T2: Add MK for Bolt and Clap + Priest and Sorc
T3: Add Pala for HL + DA + Knight
(Good because it is a great build. Bad beacuse it takes a lot of micro.)
Even these builds may be overly fancy. Depending on your and their skill level, pure AM+Rifle+Towerrush might be more than good enough.
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Hungary11297 Posts
I will be online later today, maybe we can work out some games / coaching, although I am playing on a Laptop.
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I forgot to say GL in your tournament. I wish we had local events in Miami, Fl. But, all the lans dead. =/
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My experiences so far(talking about low skill level):
its quite good to pressure a Nightelf in the beginning with footys and and tower rush him tier 2, had no problems so far
i just can't win against orc players, raiders and blademasters are just way to hard for me to handle, i figured out that i need this powder from the goblin shop to have anyhow a chance to defend his harass... isn't orc going Far Seer anymore ?
How do i counter an undead who plays with mass ghouls or mass fiends in the beginning, i used footys agains the fiends - but as soon as he had statues and a lvl 3 Dreadlord i had like no chance :X
any suggestions? couldnt find hu vs ud replays where ud is doing something else then fast destroyer -_-
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Hungary11297 Posts
In case you want to go with the universal build I suggested, I am playing a few games right now to test the viability. Generally, if you are playing against opponents at lower skill level it should be alright. Might upload some replays later, but don't expect miracles
edit: btw, was just online, but you werent, too bad.
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yeah i made a pause, i appreciate your effort to help me
start gaming now
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ok teamliquid - i failed
it was bo3 with lb and i was seeded (lololol) and in the first round i got an ud. 0-2 loss - he wasn't really good, but he was better then me + i can't handle ud.
Then i played relativly safe to the semi finals winning 5 matches without losing a single game and went against the ud guy again who kicked me out (yes creepjack on turtle rock does hurt) . The final was won by some human player - i would say like lvl 30 ladder - and the ud complained about human imbaness. :D
Lessons learned: Starcraft > WC3
playing drunk improves micro in some odd way
never go to a lan again without starcraft tourney... how unprofessionel
Cheers and thx again for all the help
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Listen to Joseki he talks decently on WCR. So is Orange there I think.
To play human you should know a couple of things. Usually against every race except Undead the starting hero is the Archmage for power creeping in the start. Here are a couple of things that might help.
a) Against Orc
It's important to get level 3 on the AM as fast as possible and get boots of speed to prevent the blademaster harass (which most people do nowadays). If he goes FS then just make sure you get all his wolves, they give a lot of exp. The beastmaster is great because of mass summons, magic is something that orc is vulnerable too. Get Sky vs Grubby or basically Sky vs any orc for his tower push which is deadly if done right . Its about mass sorc/priest and if the game goes on for a longer time then switch to air t3 three heros etc.
b) Against Undead
They will the nuke the fuck out of you, so its best to get paladin on every map except TR where you can go MK first. But take in mind this is a micro intensive quick decision strat. I find the AM pretty much useless in this matchup because beyond level 3 he can't do much unless you push hard and keep their levels low. A popular strat is fast expo and then rush to tier 3 and get knights/gyrocopters and steam tanks. Or you can just expo and mass steam tanks and hit his base. Either way play gay. And ya don't forget mass towers if you expand, and I mean like 20 or so it's just fucking impossible to beat that at lower mid levels
c) Against elf
Type in GG, you lost it. You can either try for the rifle caster naga tier 2 power push or you can just play it safe expo get mass breakers and knights etc against his army. You have to counter whateverhe gets , if he goes mass dryad bear (which most do ) then you should get mortar, breaker , knight , priest and tri hero. It's hard ... really hard but you can do it. On Turtle rock if its close spawn just tower the motherfucker and you win. Watch replays.
d) Against Human mirror
Gayest matchup. Rush to Tier 3, tri hero knight priest sorc upgraded fully and expo and contain. Many people go panda second and then rush base and hit and win. You can counter with mass breakers too either way just counter hard and keep scouting. Expos always help. This really is hard to say because you should just counterand that relies on scouting.
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On March 20 2008 22:30 asel wrote:ok teamliquid - i failed it was bo3 with lb and i was seeded (lololol) and in the first round i got an ud. 0-2 loss - he wasn't really good, but he was better then me + i can't handle ud. Then i played relativly safe to the semi finals winning 5 matches without losing a single game and went against the ud guy again who kicked me out (yes creepjack on turtle rock does hurt) . The final was won by some human player - i would say like lvl 30 ladder - and the ud complained about human imbaness. :D Lessons learned: Starcraft > WC3
playing drunk improves micro in some odd way
never go to a lan again without starcraft tourney... how unprofessionel
Cheers and thx again for all the help
Gay never mind didn't read this and started posting. Must remember to check before :/
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EPT
