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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
I tried a PvZ for the first time today and did exactly what protoss players do against me and it was so fuckin easy. Granted the Z player wasn't the best, but at the same time obviously i'm not gonna be a protoss genius since i'm a fuckin zerg noob. God damnit if I didn't dislike protoss so much I'd just switch races right now.   | ||
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ATeddyBear
Canada2843 Posts
/bias | ||
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Sanity.
United States704 Posts
On January 28 2008 15:18 ATeddyBear wrote: PvZ is harder defo /bias agreed! | ||
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
I'm a fuckin noob. I don't even want to play anymore. I'll leave it to the pros and just watch em play XD | ||
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CapO
United States1615 Posts
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
On January 28 2008 15:36 BottleAbuser wrote: I don't play Z, so when I find myself playing zvp, I usually do 3 hatch hydra or 2 hatch speedlings. Yay for 30 lings when the guy's got 2 cannons and 2 zealots. Pretty much every blind, shitty, mid-level toss who follows a Bisu build but forgets to scout and/or react properly. Yay for 30 lings indeed =D! I like to do that shit with mid-level toss players all the time! Then, I actually play a competent Toss player and all of a sudden, 2/3hatch speedlings was a bad idea =/ | ||
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
=) | ||
Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
If he goes some "bisu build" style, keep his corsair count down with scourges. Noob or even decent Ps have a hard time keeping their sairs alive and also harassing. To avoid storm, flank. Send lings in between their lines and around the back and sides, because thats where the templar will be. Don't come from one direction in long streams because storm will slaughter you. Lurkers are your friend. Ps have a terrible time breaking any expo that has even 2 lurkers and a couple of sunks + a spore. These expos are especially good because they provide a perfect flanking opportunity- while his army tries to break apart your defense (which is a shock absorber), flank from the rear with waves of hydra/ling. Lurkers are also great for bottling up the P while he goes up yet another tech tree, meanwhile you are taking over the map. The hardest part about lurkers is manually spreading them as you burrow, because otherwise storm will own them horribly. Upgrades are crucial. Don't fall behind in carapace upgrades. Ultraling really is the I WIN button at this level. When your 4th or 5th base is secure (with at least 3 gas of course), hit hive, get ultra, begin the upgrades and start owning. However, don't go hive too fast, and prepare for it. If you read Chill's timing guide, know that the Hive transition is one of those "timing windows" for Protoss. Around that point, the P's army has reached a stage where it is generally superior to yours out in the field. The P will do his level best to bust your economy around this time, and you have to weather the storm (:p) while the considerable money and gas you're spending on hive upgrades (adrenal, 3/3, ultra cavern and upgrades, maybe defiler mound and spells) is still in the process of paying off. If he goes goon/archon heavy late game, remember darkswarm is your friend (it also helps in breaking cannoned expos). Plague is also very nice. Oh, and don't let the P get his 3rd nexus (or any expo beyond the natural) up without a fight. He should NOT be able to waltz in and make 20390293 cannons and only then you realize "oh shit, he has an expo and now its all covered in cannons". Force him to fight for it and use his whole army to desperately try to hold on to it. Meanwhile, take over more and more expos. Obviously easier said than done. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
http://download.yousendit.com/BB54F9277E29E0C5 Case in point. As soon as he's done raping my natural he goes and builds a third and I can't deny it from him. Then it's 3 base toss vs 2 base zerg and i lose automatically. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
5/5 | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On January 29 2008 08:35 blagoonga123 wrote: What happens if he puts up his third while raping your army at your third so that you don't have a means to take out his expo attempt? Should i just send like 2 lings to deny it? On January 29 2008 09:29 blagoonga123 wrote: http://download.yousendit.com/BB54F9277E29E0C5 Case in point. As soon as he's done raping my natural he goes and builds a third and I can't deny it from him. Then it's 3 base toss vs 2 base zerg and i lose automatically. OK, lets take this case in point. Your overlord sees forge first Nexus. At that point you can safely turn your 12 hatch into 3 hatch before pool, 3rd hatch at an expo. If you see forge first thats going to be greatly delayed aggression from the P (unless, and be sure to watch for it, a cannon rush). This is a huge boost to your economy and also establishes your 3rd very early. But OK, you went 12 hatch/11 pool anyway. At 13 supply you have 500 mins, there is no reason you shouldnt have a 3rd hatch up by now, and since he went forge first, you can safely put it in the top left corner on Python, or the natural for 9. Its not a surprise that you have problems establishing the third. When the P FEs he is basically giving you the map for a while. Take advantage of it (or else you may try for some sort of early timed attack, but either way you should be doing something, not idling minerals). Your gas is too early. You don't need gas at 12 supply unless you are aiming for some sort of really fast speedling cannon break. You make a sunken right away. Why? Hes FEing, and has one gateway and no zealots. There is no need for any defense at all. Plan your overlords in advance so you don't supply stall. You stall at 18, then at 25/27 you have 200 mins and no overlord making. Make the 3rd overlord at 16 supply, and your 4th at 23-24 depending on when you are making buildings. A little after that start starting new ones every time one overlord finishes at the minimum. Its 6 minutes and you havent taken your third, nor have you gone for some sort of cannon break. When the Protoss FEs, you want one of those options. Not neither. You never want to fight a protoss on even economic terms for long unless you plan to end the game soon. Also where is your overlord scouting his tech? You need to see what he's doing. Even if he had a dragoon (and he doesnt) its worth one overlord. You really want to see his post-cyber core tech. Idle larvae and drones have been a problem in general. At this stage of the game there is really no reason for it. Your spire finishes morphing and... you guessed it, supply stall. Plan these things out. You dont want 7 supply free as your spire is finishing. And then... you make 4 scourge no muta. Wtf? Why are you patrolling your perimeter with them? Were you expecting some super quick drop? Again points to the need to scout his tech. He doesnt even have any air units of any sort, or even a building capable of producing one. Why go spire first at all? You make a 4th hatchery finally and again its at your natural. Why not expand with it? Make sure to bring an overlord when you expand because you should have scouted his templar tech and you know he might own your attempts to expo with a DT. Don't burrow your lurkers in a huge clump like that. It will get owned by storm (from personal experience, its incredibly frustrating). Since you have some sort of hatred for a 3rd base you have put it off till now, but at least take this opportunity to finally expand, if not double expand, behind the lurkers. You're going hive too fast given how late you expoed. Its basically 2 base hive since your 3rd has just gone up. Hive only off of 3 up and running secure gas bases at the minimum, preferably 4 or 5 bases total. You dont need to rush to hive, this isn't ZvT. Luckily for you this protoss is allergic to observers. 15 minutes. This is a critical moment. Your too-early hive has just finished and you are vulnerable. The Protoss just got his too-late observers and is ready to bust out lawling at your 84 supply army with his 142 supply army. First you should try to be closer in supply. -30 or even -40 is OK, -60 is not. Second, you don't want to sit in front of his choke inviting him to take you head on, this isn't the time for such machismo. Retreat. Secure your expos. Keep a huge number of zerglings at an inbetween location waiting to flank his overly-dragoon-heavy army as soon as it engages your sunk/spore/lurk expo or natural. It was also really painful to watch you basically suicide 8-10 lurks into storm and dragoons in a huge, unburrowed (!) clump in front of his base. Thats a huge part of why your 3rd got rolled and then you lost. Protoss putting up his 3rd wasn't even a problem this game, the game was already over off his 2 bases, 16 minutes in no 3rd is basically just a 2 base mass and push out, all you had to do was survive the push with your expos intact and the game was in your favor. | ||
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
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DeifyME
Hungary47 Posts
On January 28 2008 15:17 blagoonga123 wrote: ZvP just seems so hard for me, storms rip my army apart, as do archons, a single mistake in micro will lose the game for me, while the protoss rapes my third his will go up without a fight. I don't get it at all fuckin hell. I tried a PvZ for the first time today and did exactly what protoss players do against me and it was so fuckin easy. Granted the Z player wasn't the best, but at the same time obviously i'm not gonna be a protoss genius since i'm a fuckin zerg noob. God damnit if I didn't dislike protoss so much I'd just switch races right now. at first i alwayz got raped by Ps, but now i just lose against each race at the some rate :D maybe our army get wasted from a few storms, but if we avoid those... then he is wasted. bigger pain is archons vs mutas  | ||
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