EPTI'm surprised there's no discussion about this.
On PvZ [Spoiler]
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MoRe_mInErAls
Canada1210 Posts
I'm surprised there's no discussion about this. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
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Tadzio
3340 Posts
So GGPlay decided to use the same build as Jaedong, and Bisu decided the best way to react to it would be exactly like Stork did? Well, at least he eventually went back to corsair/dt again... | ||
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5520 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On January 01 2008 07:05 EpiK wrote: Is this the first time a Z beat bisu late game? umm I think sAviOr beat Bisu in late game at wwi. Maybe it was the china korea thing but I do know sAviOr won in the late game. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
On January 01 2008 12:10 HaXxorIzed wrote: I don't see how this changes anything. Bisu's PvZ is so dangerous because Bisu performs it so well. Bisu did not play particularly well here and adopted a Stork-like approach, while GGplay is an excellent lategame performer. Enough with your blatant fanboism. 1) Bisu's opening is exactly his "Bisu Build." Corsairs/dts harassment into ground army and macro. His harass failed to do any damage and he stopped corsairs because he believed they would be countered by scourges. Since his harass wasn't effective, he transitioned to a ground army, that's exactly the adaptation you would expect. 2) Bisu played well this game. His macro is much better than Stork during his game against Jaedong. He matched GGPlay 4 base vs 4 base for most of the game while maintaining a large and balanced army of zealots, templars, dragoons, and archons. Up until 17 minutes, Bisu seemed to be in the lead. 3) GGPlay won with his base at 6 and taking advantage of the mobility of his ultra-ling army to destroy Bisu's expos on opposite sides of the map. Z's base at 6 forced Bisu to take 12, splitting up his 4th and 5th expansions by a very far distance. This base was crucial as GGPlay set up plenty of sunkens there. Cheap zerglings and plague also helped. 4) If Bisu kept on pumping corsairs/dt, GGplay would simply build more hydras and scourge. He was making them anyway for the lurker defense. Storm drops would've given Bisu an advantage but he was having a handful trying to expand and defend his bases. Not to mention the threat of scourges to shuttles and observers. Suffice to say Bisu is faster than Savior, but not faster than GGPlay in this game. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
1) Bisu's opening is exactly his "Bisu Build." Corsairs/dts harassment into ground army and macro. His harass failed to do any damage and he stopped corsairs because he believed they would be countered by scourges. Since his harass wasn't effective, he transitioned to a ground army, that's exactly the adaptation you would expect. He's saying that Bisu isn't good because of his BO, but because Bisu is simply an amazing multitasker. No matter what bo, if he doesn't execute well, he'll lose vs someone good.It's an interesting counter to P FE though. 9 ol, 9 pool, 8 gas, then the zerg FEs on his own. Still watching... I don't know man. GGplay does a nice job hiding his OLs when Bisu's first sair pops out and goes scouting, but I still think he could've gone double gate and done a ton of damage. There really aren't that many hydras on the map (10:30 mark). They're never really at equal bases either. Early on it's like 4 v 2.5, and from then on GGplay keeps shutting down Bisu's new expos. Pretty much what Bisu does to sAviOr. o.o I don't see how you could say Bisu was winning up until the 17 minute mark. He's got a nice army, but he can't do anything with it because of lurkers and swarm, meanwhile GGplay is defending with a scrap army and using the extra resources to tech and expand. I really like lurker/ling/defiler vs P, but I'm not sure how well it would work on a less "rampy" map than BS. I guess reavers would be the next counter? Ok, Bisu just started using his corsairs again. I wonder why he waits so long. Either he got stupid and decided to try a regular 1gate build, or he's SO smart that he lulls the zerg into abandoning his anti-air and then goes after OLs when there's no hydras. My guess is #1 and he goes back to the basics after realizing it sucks. I hate Bisu as much as any sAviOr fanboy, but I really think he lost it. GGplay played well, but it would've been a very different game if Bisu had used his usual corsair harass and I think he would've won. At the very least, he would've forced mutas or more hydras, which would've severely cut back on the number of lurkers. Maybe he just didn't trust his normal style on Blue Storm, since he's lost on it so much before? | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On January 01 2008 13:32 vnlegend wrote: More sairs in the beginning would've forced more hydras, or punished GGPlay for lack of anti-air, and also would've given Bisu more map control; it also didn't help that he went massive goon vs. an almost pure-ling army; that's not what I'd call a smart transition. He pretty much lost the game when he got hit by that ling attack on his expo and didn't counter or have any sairs to kill overlords though. Basically, little/no sair harrassment = y halo ther lurk/ling/ultra.Enough with your blatant fanboism. 1) Bisu's opening is exactly his "Bisu Build." Corsairs/dts harassment into ground army and macro. His harass failed to do any damage and he stopped corsairs because he believed they would be countered by scourges. Since his harass wasn't effective, he transitioned to a ground army, that's exactly the adaptation you would expect. 2) Bisu played well this game. His macro is much better than Stork during his game against Jaedong. He matched GGPlay 4 base vs 4 base for most of the game while maintaining a large and balanced army of zealots, templars, dragoons, and archons. Up until 17 minutes, Bisu seemed to be in the lead. 3) GGPlay won with his base at 6 and taking advantage of the mobility of his ultra-ling army to destroy Bisu's expos on opposite sides of the map. Z's base at 6 forced Bisu to take 12, splitting up his 4th and 5th expansions by a very far distance. This base was crucial as GGPlay set up plenty of sunkens there. Cheap zerglings and plague also helped. 4) If Bisu kept on pumping corsairs/dt, GGplay would simply build more hydras and scourge. He was making them anyway for the lurker defense. Storm drops would've given Bisu an advantage but he was having a handful trying to expand and defend his bases. Not to mention the threat of scourges to shuttles and observers. Suffice to say Bisu is faster than Savior, but not faster than GGPlay in this game. I liked GGPlay's strat and all, but I think he would've got pwned if Bisu made his usual "critical mass" sairs. | ||
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Felagund
Philippines504 Posts
(In terms of imbaness.) EDIT: Wow, Bisu didn't play like Bisu at all most of the game. Now, I'm not a Bisu fanboy--I hate him and FBH for sAviOr's painful fall from the top--, but all I kept thinking during those large battles was, 'Welcome to 2006, Tossnubb.' | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
Excluding his opening, Bisu tried to play a more old school kind of PvZ. You can't really look at the number of expansions in order to see who is winning in this game because a Zerg player who is not being slowed down is just a ticking bomb. Once he gets his Hive tech out, he becomes so powerful that the Protoss strength doesn't matter. Matching the Zerg's expansions and then bracing yourself for the Zerg attacks is like a 2004-2005 strategy. So really, it just looked to me like he tried a kind of timing attack in the mid-game, which of course failed against GGPlay's build that is pretty much specifically designed to just get 3gas and defend it until Hive tech. And then after that failure, he tried to match expansion numbers and survive, but that failed. Finally he gets corsairs, which the Zerg was weak to ALL game, and he survives a bit longer. But it was definitely too late at that point. | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On January 01 2008 13:32 vnlegend wrote: Enough with your blatant fanboism. 1) Bisu's opening is exactly his "Bisu Build." Corsairs/dts harassment into ground army and macro. His harass failed to do any damage and he stopped corsairs because he believed they would be countered by scourges. Since his harass wasn't effective, he transitioned to a ground army, that's exactly the adaptation you would expect. 2) Bisu played well this game. His macro is much better than Stork during his game against Jaedong. He matched GGPlay 4 base vs 4 base for most of the game while maintaining a large and balanced army of zealots, templars, dragoons, and archons. Up until 17 minutes, Bisu seemed to be in the lead. 3) GGPlay won with his base at 6 and taking advantage of the mobility of his ultra-ling army to destroy Bisu's expos on opposite sides of the map. Z's base at 6 forced Bisu to take 12, splitting up his 4th and 5th expansions by a very far distance. This base was crucial as GGPlay set up plenty of sunkens there. Cheap zerglings and plague also helped. 4) If Bisu kept on pumping corsairs/dt, GGplay would simply build more hydras and scourge. He was making them anyway for the lurker defense. Storm drops would've given Bisu an advantage but he was having a handful trying to expand and defend his bases. Not to mention the threat of scourges to shuttles and observers. Suffice to say Bisu is faster than Savior, but not faster than GGPlay in this game. GGPlay is a better player than Bisu? Who the hell are you in the first place? One win means exactly nothing, no matter how "convincing" it looks. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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vhallee
899 Posts
On January 02 2008 07:02 BluzMan wrote: Well, maybe I misinterpreted the wording of "Bisu played well this game". If he played well and still got outplayed, then GGPlay should be a better player, right? not really. bisu just wasn't bisu in this game, that's all. no matter how much i hate bisu i still think he can crush ggplay in a bo5. it's just that ggplay was better this game. | ||
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
Your claims of fanboyism fall through on two accounts accounts, which I already stated. One, it is when Bisu performs his PvZ well is what makes it dangerous. There was no mention made of the 'Bisu Build', merely Bisu's ability to execute it. Secondly, as has been noted by Nony, Noobienoob, Jibba and Fegalund noted, Bisu did not attempt to rely on his usual mainstay units (sairs) until later in the game. For the majority he adopted an aggressive 2006 approach -> which is the same approach Stork tried against Jaedong and was thrashed for it. For me and particularly given Bisu's multitasking and knowledge of PvZ (going off his games and quotes from people such as Stork), reverting to his standard tactics would have been playing 'well' and strategically sound. IF Bisu had used his usual midgame approach and lost, I wouldn't have written this game off. However, as I noted, several others noted (and you evidently failed to do so in between jumping to shout fanboyism), this is hardly a situation which changes Bisu's stranglehold on PvZ atm and it is hardly fanboy-banter for me to state this. | ||
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kpcrew
Korea (South)1071 Posts
i was surprised too at the lack of corsair, when he went against savior in that 2nd game, he went corsair crazy i guess since its bluestorm and since ggplay only won one game, it hasnt been brought up to the attention teamliquid audience however, if bisu doesn't shape up and jaedong brings his zvp up to the level of his other mus, then we will definitely see a new bonjwa | ||
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