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TrAiDoS
Germany255 Posts
time for a new (old) episode of Gaming Science (the latest ones are out every Sunday on my website/newsletter). Since it's this time of the year - EWC - I prepared an episode concerning the ever present conflict between money and values. It discusses Team Liquid's values (and hence image) and attending EWC. [DISCLAIMER]: The article is written for my weekly newsletter, and published on my website. Enjoy the read. Have a great week. Christian  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27389 Posts
On July 27 2024 15:25 TrAiDoS wrote: Hello fellow SC2ers, time for a new (old) episode of Gaming Science (the latest ones are out every Sunday on my website/newsletter). Since it's this time of the year - EWC - I prepared an episode concerning the ever present conflict between money and values. It discusses Team Liquid's values (and hence image) and attending EWC. [DISCLAIMER]: The article is written for my weekly newsletter, and published on my website. Enjoy the read. Have a great week. Christian What do you think? I’m interested as a frequent visitor of your blog, and have liked many. I have my own opinions, as many do. One thing I’ll say is that Liquid were pretty rare among orgs (I mean as I only follow SC games perhaps others did I just didn’t see) in even addressing concerns publicly. Which is definitely a plus in their column! I think aside from moral conundrums this also raises a sustainability question in a business sense too, depending on how this goes. If this expands and most orgs become used to Saudi money, are they not vulnerable to an occasion where this isn’t available? Or does it stop scenes from having incentives to being self-sustainable? | ||
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TrAiDoS
Germany255 Posts
From a moral standpoint (that would take a lot of time to explain in detail why) I have no problem with them competing at EWC. From a business perspective it definitely makes sense. They didn't really have a chance other than to come out and say something themselves before the community does. If there would not have been a statement (offensive mode), the community would have asked questions and highlighted the discrepancy between their values and competing at EWC (Gamers8). I personally think that not enough people really care about this conundrum to really affect Liquid. In the end, they're multi-million Dollar company that makes business decisions as every other company does. At the same time, they want to sustain their image. Not joining EWC would have been in peoples' minds a few days and then forgotten. Competing at EWC brings in big Dollar bills and the moral aspect was forgotten days later as well. So they basically had to choose between a few days of negative/positive comments and no money or money. Ez choice! - The dangerous party, imo, and as you have already mentioned, is getting too dependent on Saudi money. I don't think it's productive in general to have too much under one umbrella. - Going into esports is just a business decision for them as taking the money is for the companies. - The scene is going to rely on it for sure; why wouldn't they? Humans are humans; if you take away uncertainty (a BIG motivator) and they know money is coming in anyway, people get "lazy" as there is no incentive anymore to compete, be productive etc. I assume this will make the scene less "productive/innovative" over the next years. There might even be excessive spending up to certain point. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27389 Posts
On July 28 2024 18:06 TrAiDoS wrote: First of all: thanks for being a frequent reader! That warms my heart to hear. <3 From a moral standpoint (that would take a lot of time to explain in detail why) I have no problem with them competing at EWC. From a business perspective it definitely makes sense. They didn't really have a chance other than to come out and say something themselves before the community does. If there would not have been a statement (offensive mode), the community would have asked questions and highlighted the discrepancy between their values and competing at EWC (Gamers8). I personally think that not enough people really care about this conundrum to really affect Liquid. In the end, they're multi-million Dollar company that makes business decisions as every other company does. At the same time, they want to sustain their image. Not joining EWC would have been in peoples' minds a few days and then forgotten. Competing at EWC brings in big Dollar bills and the moral aspect was forgotten days later as well. So they basically had to choose between a few days of negative/positive comments and no money or money. Ez choice! - The dangerous party, imo, and as you have already mentioned, is getting too dependent on Saudi money. I don't think it's productive in general to have too much under one umbrella. - Going into esports is just a business decision for them as taking the money is for the companies. - The scene is going to rely on it for sure; why wouldn't they? Humans are humans; if you take away uncertainty (a BIG motivator) and they know money is coming in anyway, people get "lazy" as there is no incentive anymore to compete, be productive etc. I assume this will make the scene less "productive/innovative" over the next years. No problem, keep ‘em coming! There might even be excessive spending up to certain point. Money does talk, but one has to wonder why there was such a giant backlash in the Blitzchung controversy and almost nothing here. In this sense at least TL has acknowledged the issues, almost nobody else had across the board. For them to even do this puts them basically alone, never mind actually taking some moral stance on it. I think you’re broadly correct that most don’t care, which is why things are shaping up as they are. I just somewhat question the moral framework where Blizz banning a singular player for a political statement actually does mobilise people, but Saudi Arabia, a country that executes LGBT people does not. Money talks, or it doesn’t, as do morals. It seems people are picking one from each column and applying them very differently to these two scenarios. | ||
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TrAiDoS
Germany255 Posts
Blizzard was/is special too. Their main goal was/is to never ever let anything bad stick to them. Also, they had a made a huuuuuge investment into mobile games years ago and China being their new targeted market (that's why western players felt like they have been let down - they were, from a business standpoint because Blizzard focused on other gamers/countries). Not taking action in such cases would have made them look bad in the eyes of the Chinese government and probably caused them big bucks there. It absolutely made sense what they did. On thing I'll never get tired of saying is that we (and ofc other cultures/countries etc. but especially westerners) think we have the moral superiority and think our morals are "the right" ones and everyone else's is "wrong". You can argue about consequences etc. but one should accept that other countries/cultures deal with things differently. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17844 Posts
Considering the birth rate in South Korea is 0.81 and the family unit is disintegrating in the USA and Canada... I'd say "the west" is ripe for the picking. This is a solid strategic move by Saudi Arabia. Oh so Meta. I view video game playing as a mild vice similar to drinking a can of coca cola. Many in the west view video game playing as some kind of noble pursuit. At best, video games offer a short burst of escapism from a difficult full time grind of real life. At worst, welp, South Korea is going blind. The myopia rate in South Korea is over 50% and still climbing. The high myopia rate amongst young south koreans is frightening. high myopia leads to macular degeneration. Sit down game playing increases the probability of DVT. Several devout muslims and devout christians I've met over the years view video game playing as degenerate or sinful as well as having addictive unhealthy patterns. I see their point... and get their perspective completely. As far as South Korea's, 0.81 birth rate goes. North Korea is coming. There is no morality to discuss. If South Korea have too few young men willing to die defending the border then South Korea ceases to exist. An entire great civilization can be built upon the foundations of a well fleshed out religion such as Islam or Christianity. One can not build a civilization based upon atheism. As atheism rises in the west... western civilization declines. From the jewish perspective: it is fascinating watching the West decline while a bunch of screaming, self-absorbed weirdos practising the religion of atheism point fingers of blame in every direction.  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27389 Posts
On July 29 2024 17:47 TrAiDoS wrote: I think Liquid is different (from a business/corporate perspective) than other organizations because it is part of their image; that's not the case for the other companies in the space. As a consequence, they had to address it. Blizzard was/is special too. Their main goal was/is to never ever let anything bad stick to them. Also, they had a made a huuuuuge investment into mobile games years ago and China being their new targeted market (that's why western players felt like they have been let down - they were, from a business standpoint because Blizzard focused on other gamers/countries). Not taking action in such cases would have made them look bad in the eyes of the Chinese government and probably caused them big bucks there. It absolutely made sense what they did. On thing I'll never get tired of saying is that we (and ofc other cultures/countries etc. but especially westerners) think we have the moral superiority and think our morals are "the right" ones and everyone else's is "wrong". You can argue about consequences etc. but one should accept that other countries/cultures deal with things differently. This is somewhat my point. Either placing your morals above other considerations, or taking a pragmatic ‘money talks’ kind of line are legitimate paths, albeit I favour one. Whereas I feel Blizzard got absolutely slammed for a pragmatic, money-oriented call, incidentally not one I personally agreed with, whereas people just shrug and go ‘money talks’ if it’s Saudi Arabia dandering in. It’s that disconnect I find strange and frankly inconsistent. On the bolded, perhaps, but are we talking about largely Westernised institutions to begin with, or something else? Something like football is as globally supported an activity as we have in a similar sphere. So perhaps, even if us Westerners don’t like it it’s only fair to give prominent tournaments to various locales who maybe deviate from any kind of Western standard. It’s difficult to make the same kind of argument for many eSports, you’re just taking an activity that’s got biggest traction in the West + Korea + China and moving events to an area with not much tradition there. | ||
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TrAiDoS
Germany255 Posts
I agree, they don't have a tradition. However, no one will really care about it too much in a few years. Once people get used to EWC being in Saudi Arabia and it being "the biggest tournament" it'll not make a (as much of a) difference anymore. Especially for the younger generations. They'll grow up with it being the norm. "Older" people will just be like: "You know, back in my days...". :D Yes, mostly Westernised institutions and people living in the west (EU + NA). There is a great book by Prof. Jonathan Hayd I can recommend called "The Righteous Mind". He explains the science behind morality and who it is shaped in different countries. In this particular case, we (Westerners) are very much focused on the individual whereas other cultures (e.g., China, Saudi Arabia) care more about the community/group. Hence, from their perspective "sacrificing" an individual for the greater good is seen as good, whereas we in the west would see this as a very much bad thing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27389 Posts
On July 31 2024 15:49 TrAiDoS wrote: Blizzard's behavior is inconsistent because our reference points is "the good old times" when they "cared" about NA and EU customers (they were their priority/focus group). Once they announced going hard on mobile and China being their new market, they had to change their behavior as well. It's just that 95% or so of the players don't/didn't know that when calling out Blizzard. I agree, they don't have a tradition. However, no one will really care about it too much in a few years. Once people get used to EWC being in Saudi Arabia and it being "the biggest tournament" it'll not make a (as much of a) difference anymore. Especially for the younger generations. They'll grow up with it being the norm. "Older" people will just be like: "You know, back in my days...". :D Yes, mostly Westernised institutions and people living in the west (EU + NA). There is a great book by Prof. Jonathan Hayd I can recommend called "The Righteous Mind". He explains the science behind morality and who it is shaped in different countries. In this particular case, we (Westerners) are very much focused on the individual whereas other cultures (e.g., China, Saudi Arabia) care more about the community/group. Hence, from their perspective "sacrificing" an individual for the greater good is seen as good, whereas we in the west would see this as a very much bad thing. I’d argue people largely did know that, but were nonetheless outraged Blizz put money ahead of other considerations. My issue is why such completely different reactions, by and large? They’re not building any kind of tradition really, that’s kind of my other issue. It’s a have your cake and eat it too scenario. I’m not against the former By want of a comparison, a sport close to my heart, rather niche on these forums is snooker, whose historic heartland is in ye olde UK. You’ve the occasional world-class player from a Canada, Australia, Ireland or even Belgium, but the depth is certainly in the UK. However, in the last few decades there’s been a lot of inroads made in China, we’ve got big events out in China. The thing is, alongside that is that Chinese folks also actually like snooker. They’ve developed lots of talented players and Ding Junhui has won some of the biggest titles in the game and been world number 1. It’s kind of hard for all but the most jingoistic traditionalists to really oppose courting that market. There’s really nothing particularly equivalent with Saudi just buying various events and sticking them out there, be it eSports or high profile boxing matches or various other sports. Point taken re Western chauvinism, but I think that distinction is important. They’re taking established events with a large amount of that audience being in the West, elsewhere and then crying cultural relativism when people have an issue. As opposed to ‘we have a huge and vibrant eSports scene too, let us have a go too’, which I really would have no particular issue with. I mean Katowice was the pinnacle, it was easy for SC2’s largest audience in Europe to get to if they wanted. Now it isn’t, the EWC is and hey, now you gotta travel to Saudi for it. Never mind other ethical issues, which are pretty legion That said I don’t wanna turn your blog into my personal soapbox, just giving some counter-points, and I do enjoy your takes on most things although perhaps slightly disagree on this one :p | ||
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TrAiDoS
Germany255 Posts
 I appreciate the conversation!What we see happening is just money talking. For them, esports is not about passion or what ever, but to diversify and spend their money for something that has value and will likely produce value in the future. At the same time, they're making their country a hub so that they can impact the country on multiple levels (tourism, media etc.); they don't have much (right now!) besides oil, and they have to change that. I think they're doing a way better job (if you wanna see it that way) than Russia who was/is in a similar situation but has not (yet?) managed to spend their oil money well. | ||
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