OK well in response to my last post I had a look up on the internet for advice. I stumbled across a link saying: "How to know God", and I was like oh my gosh this is going to be a huge page, but was actually relatively surprised at how short it was, so I thought I'd repost it here. I got it from www.harvest.org (a crusade I went to last year):
1. Realize that you are a sinner. No matter how good a life we try to live, we still fall miserably short of being a good person. That is because we are all sinners. We all fall short of God’s desire for us to be holy. The Bible says, “No one is good—not even one” (Romans 3:10 NLT). This is because we cannot become who we are supposed to be without Jesus Christ.
2. Recognize that Jesus Christ died on the cross for you. The Bible tells us, “But God showed His great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while were still sinners” (Romans 5:8 NLT). This is the Good News, that God loves us so much that He sent His only Son to die in our place when we least deserved it.
3. Repent of your sin. The Bible tells us to “repent and be converted” (Acts 3:19 NKJV). The word repent means to change our direction in life. Instead of running from God, we can run toward Him.
4. Receive Jesus Christ into your life. Becoming a Christian is not merely believing some creed or going to church on Sunday. It is having Christ Himself take residence in your life and heart. Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door (of your life) and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in . . . .” (Revelation 3:20 NKJV).
If you would like to have a relationship with Christ, simply pray this prayer and mean it in your heart.
Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner. I believe you died for my sins. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my heart and life. I confess you as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. Amen.
If you just prayed that prayer and meant it, Jesus Christ has now taken residence in your heart! Your decision to follow Christ means God has forgiven you and that you will spend eternity in heaven. The Bible tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1 NKJV).
You should really tone it down a bit with this religious agenda. Yea it's cool and all that you have faith and you want to share it, but seriously, you're coming off as a bit of an attention whore : )
Interesting that you have that perception of me. Well I just posted this topic because I felt like it was a waste to stumble across these four points and not repost them so that more people could see it.
Yeah everyone who is not converting to Christianity and repenting their sins is a bad person...
Don't you even see the fatal flaw in that logical chain?
What is a sin in Christian terms might not be necessarily "bad" for others. Why would I repent for something I don't view as wrong? Why should I run to some imaginative father-figure to seek forgiveness when I did no wrong? And why should I accept these norms when they are, for all I know, made by men? According to your own beliefs, God himself is the only and final judgement of men. But you obviously failed to comply with his will a whole lot of times, even though you tried. So why listen to you guys???
What you actually advertise here is "It is ok if you do something wrong, just say a prayer and it's all good!" Yay, everybody wins, right?
No. Everyone is responsible for himself. There is no God. There is no divine forgiveness. If you must have faith, have faith in yourself. I remember reading a quote from a fisherman around here saying "It's ok to have faith in God, but you still have to row yourself."
And the whole idea of Jesus Christ is just horribly amusing. I mean, imagine you create a little toy planet for yourself, and maybe for your son to play with. Now imagine that toy has a major malfunction. What would you do? a) throw the toy in the trashbin b) allow your only son to play with it and eventually die of electrical shock.
The bible is about as logical and reasonable to me as the idea of cutting my own legs off just so I don't have to walk anymore. It's ridiculous. All you people need to get your eyes opened. Because right now, you're blind.
On September 24 2007 16:47 RebelHeart wrote: Interesting that you have that perception of me. Well I just posted this topic because I felt like it was a waste to stumble across these four points and not repost them so that more people could see it.
Thats fine but you have to understand, those four points are nothing new, they have been out there have been the most cliché'd lines ever used by said religion.
Cpt Obvious: Jesus said that faith was not for those who are well, but only those who are sick. So I guess if you do feel like you're a good person and don't need God that's fine for you, but there are people in this world who do need God's forgiveness and have their lives changed as a result.
We wanted to share with you a few more testimonies from the Central Valley Harvest, so you know just how much your prayers and support helped:
* Lauren had been dealing with depression for four years after learning her father had been molesting her sister. She had an empty spot in her life that grew bigger when her boyfriend broke up with her, causing her to consider suicide. Lauren came forward, and said that the hole in her heart was finally filled the second she prayed to receive Christ.
* Leroy attended the first night of the Central Valley Harvest, but was put off by the praise and worship music, thinking it wasn't appropriate for Christians. He came back Sunday night and this time, his whole attitude was changed. At the invitation, he went forward to receive Christ and said he had never been so sure he had done the right thing in his life.
* Cecilia's father died in February, and she had been mad at God for taking him. Feeling lonely, she came to the Central Valley Harvest at the invitation of a friend. Cecelia responded to the message of hope and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
* I grew up in the drug scene. I tried drugs when I was eight, and got really hooked by 12. My brother had become a Christian and was always telling me about Jesus. I didn't really want to hear it and I used to hide from him.
He invited me to the Harvest Crusade and I only came because he and his group brought along a pretty girl. I came late on my own and was trying to find them when the Holy Spirit spoke through Greg and kinda nailed me in the heart. I answered the call and gave my life over to Jesus.
I am now a youth pastor at Calvary Chapel Anaheim, and the pretty girl they brought to the crusade is now my lovely wife of 11 years. Praise the Lord!
By T. Suzanne Eller (excerpted from Real Teens, Real Stories, Real Life)
The small church was crowded. All around me people worshiped a god that I didn’t believe existed. Why was I there? My neighbor asked me to come. To be honest, I thought they would leave me alone if I did.
I wasn’t sure what to expect. I had attended services with my family a few
me and mom
times, but it was more of a ritual or a way to celebrate holidays. What I hadn’t anticipated was the wetness pressed against my eyelids as I clenched them shut.
My motto? Never let them see you cry. I wasn’t about to break down in front of people I didn’t know. I wasn’t crying because I felt the presence of God or that I sensed his love for me. I fought tears because I was mad, so angry that I shook inside. How dare the preacher stand there and talk about the love of God. It was easy for him and people like him to spout off about a God who existed, who had a purpose for every person. Well, maybe their God had taken a personal interest in them but he didn’t live at my house.
The mother I am about to share with you is the not the mom I have now. You see, she had an encounter with God, and he brought her out of the darkness of emotional pain and healed her. In order to share my story, I have to share a little bit of hers as well.
My mom left home at 16 years old, pregnant and newly married to a boy who thought he was a man. She lost her first baby to cystic fibrosis when the toddler was less than two years old. She had her second child at 18 and left her husband at the age of 21. He came to visit her one night and forced her to have sex. She discovered two weeks later she was pregnant.
I was that baby.
Mom married a good man who loved her and the two little kids that came as a package deal. But in spite of this turn of events, my mom was fragile. Like stained glass, she was pretty on the outside, but the broken pieces of her life created the portrait.
Growing up, I never knew what to expect. Would it be the mom who brought home suckers to surprise us, or the woman who spouted horrific things as she ran out the door and threatened to kill herself? There was physical abuse and apologies. There were humiliating punishments, harsh words, and tearful requests for forgiveness.
Please don’t get me wrong. It wasn’t always bad in my home, but when it was it was loud and chaotic and frightening. I feared one day that my mom would pull the trigger or hurt herself. I hated the words that came out of her mouth when she was angry.
One day my mom chased me through the house, brandishing an umbrella as she screamed at me. I ran out the door and into the rain. I was wearing a T-shirt and jeans and no shoes. The cold rain pelted me as I ran down Latimer Street. I pushed through the wetness, pumping my arms as I ran as fast as I could. Finally I stopped, bending down to catch my breath as my tears meshed with the raindrops. I slowly turned around and walked home, sat on the curb, and wept until my throat closed.
I was stuck. I couldn’t run away. I had no money, no place to go. I was 13 years old. Where could I go?
I started smoking at the bus stop, pushing boundaries with my teachers, and drinking with my best friend. My attempts to be tough must have appeared hilarious to others. I was skinny to a fault and looked younger than my age. Being tough didn’t come natural. My heart was gentle and I hated conflict and fighting, yet every single time I let my guard down someone hurt me.
Angry words all sharp and pointy, a knife in my soul.
That’s when the hardness crept in. Never let them see you cry. Never give them a chance to know you care.
One day it all came to a head. My mom pulled us around her in her bedroom. She put a gun to her head and threatened to shoot herself. I was scared, but not because I thought she would die, but because under my breath I whispered, “just do it”.
Who was this person I was becoming?
Two years later I stood in the little church. The pastor sang, strumming on the guitar as people knelt at the altar. “He loves you,” he said. “He has a plan for your life.”
Yeah, right. I pointed my chin at the sky, my eyes closed, and I challenged this God of which he spoke. “If you are real,” I whispered, “and I don’t believe you are, but if you exist and you know me and you love me like he says, I need to know.”
I expected nothing, yet I received everything as a tender touch reached past my hardened heart. I’ve had trouble explaining this moment to people over the years. “Did you see God?” No. “Did you feel God’s presence?” Yes, but so subtle and deep inside of me, touching areas that I had closed long ago to anybody, that I knew it was God.
Tears broke and streamed down my cheeks and for the first time in a long time I wept. I felt as if He had wrapped me in a warm blanket, enclosing me in his love. I stumbled from the church. I ran home and told my mom that I had just got “saved”, though I really didn’t understand what had occurred.
Did everything magically change? No. My circumstances were still the same, but everything was different on the inside of me.
I made mistakes, huge blunders as I tried to learn what it meant to follow Jesus as my Savior. I wasn’t perfect, but I understood his love. I knew I wanted to know more. The people of that little church ministered to me in ways they will never understand. There were times I wept at the altar and then went home to chaos. There were times I fell in my walk with Christ and their gentle encouragement helped me to keep going.
It is amazing what can happen when God restores a broken life. It can be beautiful like the portrait that my mom is now, the shattered pieces of her life assembled together in a beautiful picture of God’s mercy.
Today I am a mom, an author, a speaker, and a wife. I have the opportunity to minister to teens and women across the world, sharing the story of my life and the beauty of purpose and the fact that God loved us from the beginning. My mother and father were saved when I was in my junior year of high school.
I found a note from my dad under my pillow one day. I still carry it with me, the tattered pieces a reminder of what God has done. My quiet father, who very rarely shared the depth of his emotions, said in that letter, “I have watched you and I see that you have something that is of great worth, a treasure. I know that it is real and I admire you for your faith and your love for God.”
We have never spoken of that letter, but it came at a time when I prayed for a sign. “God, show me that you hear my prayers. Heal my family. Let me know that you are listening.” The folded piece of paper under my pillow was heaven sent and priceless.
For years my mom and I have been best of friends. She is compassionate, loving, and whole, and the memories of our past are forgiven and forgotten.
Today I am still running after the same God that touched my life when I was 15. I always tell my audiences that one day I’ll be an old woman running after God with my walker. You see, he’s done a million things for me. He’s been with me through difficult times, but my love for him will always be wrapped around that first moment when he reached down to an angry, hurting, skinny 15-year old teenager and silently whispered that he loved me.
I still can’t help but whisper back, “I love you too”.
Lycaeus: OK well that's cool if you think they're cliched, I actually never really thought about it in such simple terms, like if someone asked me to explain Christianity to them briefly I'd probably focus more on its values of loving your neighbour and then explaining the story of Acts instead of talking about Jesus' death (it's probably an American thing 'cos you get all the crusades and tent revivals etc).
I would dispute being an attention whore though, because I note that when I post a thread entitled 'Masturbation' or 'Homosexuality' I get over 1000 views but when I post something like "A Good Talk" or "Lost In Translation" it's about 50. If I wanted to be an attention whore I'd probably make a topic title like 'Pornography' or 'Swearing' rather than "How to know God", which will obviously not get many visitors besides the Christians on TL.
By the way, to save making a new post - how not to become a Christian: + Show Spoiler +
You cannot be a Christian simply by being born into a Christian family. I'm amazed at how some people, when asked how they know they are Christians, will answer, "Because I think my grandfather was," or, "Because my mother is a Christian." It's as though they believe their family somehow has Christian "genes." Having Christian parents is a great privilege. It's a wonderful thing to be raised with biblical values and to develop a Christian worldview. But you still must personally believe in Jesus. You cannot live off the faith of the family.
You cannot make yourself a Christian by your own will. Not only does faith have nothing to do with your family background, it has nothing to do with desire. You can't just say, "From this moment on, I am a Christian!" Becoming a Christian involves putting your trust in God. God is the one who saves you, not yourself. It would be like a drowning person trying to save himself or herself. Becoming a Christian involves turning away from sin and trusting Jesus and Jesus alone for your salvation. It involves saying "yes" to God's invitation to change your heart.
You cannot become a Christian by compulsion. No one in the world can make you a Christian. No minister or priest can make you a Christian by mere baptism or a sacrament. You cannot be reborn through a ceremony, or by reading a creed, or by standing up or sitting down, or by going forward, or by kneeling at a bench. None of these things, in and of themselves, will make you a Christian.
Last thing I wanted to mention, those examples you used up there had to have been the worst ones out of a whole truck load you could of used for sympathy and just cause for your e-radical movement.
Example 1: Lauren is an asshole and shouldn't have God on her side for being so selfish as to think the world revolves around her and her depression. Her sister is the one dealing with some huge situation that will alter / scar her emotionally for life. She doesn't need a self wallowing sister but a caring consoling sibling. By praying all she did was try to excuse her own selfishness into something intangible.
Example 2: Makes absolutely no sense, Leroy apparently is trying to "fit" in with the crowd to the point that his subconcious is trying to excuse what the logical part of his brain is telling him. Which is not to be taken away by the "praise and worship music". If this is the kind of person I want worshiping me, I could do without.
Example 3: Cecilia had her reasons to try to find Christ, she obviously couldn't handle life without a "father" figure type but she isn't at fault. Tragedies like that are unavoidable.
Example 4: Praise the lord, my heroin and cocaine addiction is going to be excused because "I've found god". He didn't find god, he found other people's lives so ideal that he chose to go their path because of his inability to actually do something for himself.
I want one example of a sane, non druggie, non accident prone, individual with a logical and clear mind "suddenly" finding God, or Christ.
Why is it that some people desperately need to know whether God exists, while others could care less? For me, it was an intensely personal thing. I was an emotional wreck. For as long as I could remember, my life was characterized by tremendous anxiety and fear. Why was I so anxious and fearful? Who knows. I guess some people are just born that way. Anyway, ever since I could remember, that's just how things had always been for me.
During my junior year in college, my personal struggles came to a head. I knew that I could not go on living as I had. And yet, I also couldn't see any way out of my problems. Because my problem was me! The only solution seemed to lie in being changed--yet I was incapable of changing who I was. I concluded that if there was any solution for my problem, it would have to come from outside of myself.
And so I began my spiritual journey. I took up Transcendental Meditation. I read books on other religions. I wasn't particularly disposed towards Christianity, even though that was my family's religious tradition. After all, if there was a God, He (or She, or It, or Them) would be the God of all nations and peoples. The "accident" of my own birth circumstances shouldn't influence my search for the existence and true identity of God. I had met enough hypocrites who called themselves Christians that--if anything--Christianity was relatively discredited in my eyes.
It didn't take long, however, for me to conclude that IF there was a God out there, it had to be the Christian God. In terms of historical evidences, consistency and reliability of the religion's sacred writings, Christianity was head and shoulders above all other religions. Nevertheless, there was still a pretty big IF preceding that conclusion.
To make a long story short, after a period of searching that lasted approximately two years, I came to the conclusion that God existed and that He was the Christian God testified to by the Bible--the Three- In-One-God of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. I accepted the Bible's teaching that I was a sinner in need of a savior. So I bent my knee and prayed to God. In that prayer I acknowledged my need and thanked Him for His solution for my problem: forgiveness for my sins and a new nature through Jesus Christ. And that is how I became a Christian. Did becoming a Christian solve my problems? Yes it did. Not overnight. But God completely transformed my life, as He promised in the Bible.
I want to address one last point. Maybe you're thinking that here's another story of some loser who needed a crutch to get him through life. Well, you're right. I was a needy guy who needed a crutch. And maybe that made me more desperate to imagine a God who really wasn't there. I can certainly understand the skepticism of one who would think that. On the other hand, I ask you to consider this: it is the sick and the afflicted who are often in the best position to testify of the skill of the physician. I've identified two books below that I think do well in answering the questions of the skeptic. I encourage you to check them out. The questions of whether God exists, what He is like, and what He wants from us, are questions of truth. In Chapter 8, Verses 31 and 32 of the Book of John (in the Bible), it says, "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'" I have found these words to be true.
FURTHER READING:
Josh McDowell. More Than a Carpenter. Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, 1977.
C.S. Lewis. Mere Christianity. New York: MacMillan Publishing Company, 1952.
Anyhow, re-emphasising the point I made above when responding to Cpt Obvious:
Mark 2:13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.
15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
PS. I used those examples as they happened to be the ones from the Harvest Crusade page, which I got the OP from. I edited that post and added another more detailed example - just 'cos they're crappy life stories doesn't make them any less Christian than ones of people who were raised in Christian families.
I'm sorry Rebel, I really don't want to argue with you any further, because people like you (not a insult, just a statement) who have these beliefs won't ever be changed by what I or any other person would say. You want to know why? Because we were never there when you had your emotional breakdown, or when you had your life turned upside and were lost.
God, and Christ is your savior because they apparently gave you meaning to a life that was spiraling downwards. I understand that; I also understand we all need something to believe in. But to flat out proclaim that God existed and that he was Christian is a slap in the face to everyone elses beliefs.
This is a great article on Christians who need to practice more humility in their beliefs. Read it and please take it to heart. Rather than enlightened, you're coming off barbaric in views.
“Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’ Therefore, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.” - St. Paul
If god was all powerful and all mighty + He wanted us to believe in him and follow him = He would do something about it.
He could win over the entire human race with ease.
Seeing he hasnt done something about it, and that the human race does not universally believe in god. He either is not all powerful, doesnt want us to belive in him, or doesnt exist. Simple logic.
Lycaeus made some good points. Faith in God in itself is not wrong at all, if that gives you strenght and hope and perspective, that's perfectly fine.
What he was saying, and I agree, is that many many many people use religion and God as a general excuse for their own fucking failures. I know I suck at studying because I am lazy. I know I am not the person with the best social skills out there, and I fucking blow at BroodWar. But what do I do?
I learn, I go out, I practice. I don't pray to some imaginative person that might exist as well as not, and hope for some divine intervention that's gonna make it all easy as pie for me. Life is tough, get over it, there is nobody to help you but yourself and maybe your family. That's it. Again, faith is ok, but row for yourself.
On September 24 2007 23:03 Fen wrote: If god was all powerful and all mighty + He wanted us to believe in him and follow him = He would do something about it.
He could win over the entire human race with ease.
Seeing he hasnt done something about it, and that the human race does not universally believe in god. He either is not all powerful, doesnt want us to belive in him, or doesnt exist. Simple logic.
Wrong. Even the Christians state that God gave humans free will and does not wish to interfere with that. That's why Humans can choose to believe, or not.
Jesus said that faith was not for those who are well, but only those who are sick. So I guess if you do feel like you're a good person and don't need God that's fine for you, but there are people in this world who do need God's forgiveness and have their lives changed as a result.
Sorry was reading a bit outta this and figured I post a flaw.
So what Jesus is saying is that if you are not sick you are unable to become a Christian? People who are well pretty much are like homeless people?
How about instead of talking through the bible and talking through the words of otheres talking through your own mind. It's not like you are some kind of worthless vessel.
Reading Friedrich Nietzsche in this matter might help a lot .
A few things i want you all to think about :
1) A ''good'' religion is by definition a religion who accepts almost any other religion
2) A ''good''/''free'' religion without ''hell/sin'' is doomed to ''die'' ( * )
3) Ever thought about it : The way the church is working nowadays and how many people are just praying , not reflecting and thinking about religion/jesus/god is exactly what Jesus DID NOT WANT THE PEOPLE TO DO. Do you realize that partly the church is exactly behaving in a way which jesus didnt want to..
* the religion wont die, but i expect that in a certain time, we will see a development : the number of religious people will drastically decrease. Only a few , very few will still be ''christians'' in the end and there will be the ''old'' religion invented by jesus, without money involved and only lived by a little little number of truly faithful people.
PhiL
p.s : God is almighty ?
Tell god to create a stone so heavy , that he can not lift him.
( i know this isnt proving anything and does not have to do much with this matter and thread at all so dont feel supposed to comment it..i know its something entirely different .. para.. anyone.. )
I think the core idea from the bible is to simply be a good person but unfortunately too many people think the bible is literal. The book is a fictional account that outlines (generally) how good people should live... humility... love for ones family... doing the right thing.. generosity... yada yada yada...
Now we use Christianity to hate gays, bomb counties, and point the finger at our neighbor to show them how fucked up their life is while ignoring all that's wrong in our own lives.
On September 25 2007 03:58 Tyrant wrote: I think the core idea from the bible is to simply be a good person but unfortunately too many people think the bible is literal. The book is a fictional account that outlines (generally) how good people should live... humility... love for ones family... doing the right thing.. generosity... yada yada yada...
Now we use Christianity to hate gays, bomb counties, and point the finger at our neighbor to show them how fucked up their life is while ignoring all that's wrong in our own lives.
praise jesus!
Wrong. the core idea from the bible is not simply to be a good person, but its to accept jesus as your savior and have faith in him.
On September 25 2007 06:04 TesisMech wrote: it does actually, and there is more videos on his account
No, it doesn't. His assertion that the cause of our universe is intelligent has no support. To paraphrase him: "We exist therefore some intelligence must've created us." That is a circular argument.
As for the Earth being 6,000 years old... yeah, I suppose the Bible does say that in a roundabout way with its Genealogies, but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
On September 25 2007 06:21 Mindcrime wrote: As for the Earth being 6,000 years old... yeah, I suppose the Bible does say that in a roundabout way with its Genealogies, but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
It does? Could you quote where because it wasn't so clear to me.
On September 25 2007 06:04 TesisMech wrote: it does actually, and there is more videos on his account
but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
Thats a pretty strong emphasis you have there, all bolded and everything. The only thing it really speaks of is the corners of the earth, or ends of the earth. Lets not forget that there are oceans and the north and south pole, and the word "earth" is lowercase, which most likely means that its the stuff you walk on, inhabitable areas. If I was living a few thousand years ago, the ocean would be essentally where the earth ended, because there would be no means to go past that point.
Just like right now, when we say "we" we are probably referring to humans, because we don't know if other intelligent life exists in the universe.
On September 25 2007 06:21 Mindcrime wrote: As for the Earth being 6,000 years old... yeah, I suppose the Bible does say that in a roundabout way with its Genealogies, but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
It does? Could you quote where because it wasn't so clear to me.
Yeah I would like that too if your gonna put such stupid accusations of the Bible
On September 25 2007 06:21 Mindcrime wrote: As for the Earth being 6,000 years old... yeah, I suppose the Bible does say that in a roundabout way with its Genealogies, but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
It does? Could you quote where because it wasn't so clear to me.
"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH." -Isaiah 11:12
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." - Revelation 7:1
"That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?" - Job 38:13
O" LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." - Jeremiah 16:19
Should we add more references? Theres dozens... Some might say that their referring to the cardinal directions of north, south, east, west. But can you deny it?
Never the less, we're not here to attack the clearity of the bible, that could go on forever. Because even I believe that the bible doesn't truly teach people that the earth is flat, but an argument used by skeptics to try to discredit the bible. However, my post just merely stated references that could be interpreted as that teaching.
On September 25 2007 06:21 Mindcrime wrote: As for the Earth being 6,000 years old... yeah, I suppose the Bible does say that in a roundabout way with its Genealogies, but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
It does? Could you quote where because it wasn't so clear to me.
"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH." -Isaiah 11:12
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." - Revelation 7:1
"That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?" - Job 38:13
O" LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." - Jeremiah 16:19
Should we add more references? Theres dozens... Some might say that their referring to the cardinal directions of north, south, east, west. But can you deny it?
Never the less, we're not here to attack the clearity of the bible, that could go on forever. Because even I believe that the bible doesn't truly teach people that the earth is flat, but an argument used by skeptics to try to discredit the bible. However, my post just merely stated references that could be interpreted as that teaching.
"Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the "four corners" of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west"
"Perhaps no phrase in Scripture has been so controversial as the phrase, "the four corners of the earth." The word translated "corners," as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity.
It is translated "borders" in Numbers 15:38. In Ezekiel 7:2 it is translated "four corners" and again in Isaiah 11:12 "four corners." Job 37:3 and 38:13 as "ends."
You see, with religion, I can ask you if "those were for a fact what was intended behind what the words meant." You couldn't possibly answer that because you, nor I, truly know the meaning behind the words.
Religion is a never ending cycle and you can't delve too deeply in it before you lose your logical reasoning. Nothing is wrong with religion, it's just widely more manipulative than anything else in the world.
The problem is that when we say some terms are taken literal in the bible,including also paraboles etc. for some reason scientists ignore this and still conclude what they want ignoring the literal elements of the book.
Just like in this discussion, atheist use this and they conclude with no real proof or evidence that the "Bible says that the Earth is flat!" and you call the bible manipulation?
On September 25 2007 09:29 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that when we say some terms are taken literal in the bible,including also paraboles etc. for some reason scientists ignore this and still conclude what they want ignoring the literal elements of the book.
Just like in this discussion, atheist use this and they conclude with no real proof or evidence that the "Bible says that the Earth is flat!" and you call the bible manipulation?
No no no no, you have it wrong my friend. Unlike you, scientists actually LIKE thoroughly examining evidence and creating logical theories around it, instead of blindly accepting ideas.
On September 25 2007 09:29 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that when we say some terms are taken literal in the bible,including also paraboles etc. for some reason scientists ignore this and still conclude what they want ignoring the literal elements of the book.
Just like in this discussion, atheist use this and they conclude with no real proof or evidence that the "Bible says that the Earth is flat!" and you call the bible manipulation?
No no no no, you have it wrong my friend. Unlike you, scientists actually LIKE thoroughly examining evidence and creating logical theories around it, instead of blindly accepting ideas.
oh really? you really think the Big Bang Theory is a logical theory?
On September 25 2007 09:29 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that when we say some terms are taken literal in the bible,including also paraboles etc. for some reason scientists ignore this and still conclude what they want ignoring the literal elements of the book.
Just like in this discussion, atheist use this and they conclude with no real proof or evidence that the "Bible says that the Earth is flat!" and you call the bible manipulation?
No no no no, you have it wrong my friend. Unlike you, scientists actually LIKE thoroughly examining evidence and creating logical theories around it, instead of blindly accepting ideas.
oh really? you really think the Big Bang Theory is a logical theory?
... yes? And even if not, it is all we have, isn't it? I praise a scientist who comes up with that more than a person who says "God did it."
On September 25 2007 09:29 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that when we say some terms are taken literal in the bible,including also paraboles etc. for some reason scientists ignore this and still conclude what they want ignoring the literal elements of the book.
Just like in this discussion, atheist use this and they conclude with no real proof or evidence that the "Bible says that the Earth is flat!" and you call the bible manipulation?
No no no no, you have it wrong my friend. Unlike you, scientists actually LIKE thoroughly examining evidence and creating logical theories around it, instead of blindly accepting ideas.
oh really? you really think the Big Bang Theory is a logical theory?
... yes?
well elaborate on how the Earth form then according to your theory with your "logical explanation"
On September 25 2007 09:29 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that when we say some terms are taken literal in the bible,including also paraboles etc. for some reason scientists ignore this and still conclude what they want ignoring the literal elements of the book.
Just like in this discussion, atheist use this and they conclude with no real proof or evidence that the "Bible says that the Earth is flat!" and you call the bible manipulation?
No no no no, you have it wrong my friend. Unlike you, scientists actually LIKE thoroughly examining evidence and creating logical theories around it, instead of blindly accepting ideas.
oh really? you really think the Big Bang Theory is a logical theory?
... yes?
well elaborate on how the Earth form then according to your theory with your "logical explanation"
I edited, and if you truly wanted to know that, just go read about it. I can't explain is nearly as well as most people. My ability to explain it and my ability to believe it do not have to be equal, because others can explain it better than me and that information is readily available. It is different with God because nobody can explain God's existence better than another, it's just "He exists."
I know what the Big Bang theory is i just wanted to see why you think its more logical that God or Creationism. The problem is that Evolution is like every other religion,it is in fact a religion, but they just wont admit it. I can counter every argument the Big Bang theory says, it just doesnt make sense and contradicts itself. Matter cannot be created out of nothing and every explanation of it goes against every law of science itself, its not even plausible its completely irrational if u really know what it is.
On September 25 2007 10:32 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that Evolution is like every other religion,it is in fact a religion, but they just wont admit it. I can counter every argument the Big Bang theory says, it just doesnt make sense and contradicts itself. Matter cannot be created out of nothing and every explanation of it goes against every law science create
Evolution isn't based off something that cannot be proven, therefore, you are wrong.
On September 25 2007 10:32 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that Evolution is like every other religion,it is in fact a religion, but they just wont admit it. I can counter every argument the Big Bang theory says, it just doesnt make sense and contradicts itself. Matter cannot be created out of nothing and every explanation of it goes against every law science create
Evolution isn't based off something that cannot be proven, therefore, you are wrong.
It definately IS. Give me facts or an example of evolution then. Its funny how scientist or atheist convince people that the big bang theory/ evolution are logical theories
On September 25 2007 10:32 TesisMech wrote: The problem is that Evolution is like every other religion,it is in fact a religion, but they just wont admit it. I can counter every argument the Big Bang theory says, it just doesnt make sense and contradicts itself. Matter cannot be created out of nothing and every explanation of it goes against every law science create
Evolution isn't based off something that cannot be proven, therefore, you are wrong.
It definately IS. Give me facts or an example of evolution then. Its funny how scientist or atheist convince people that the big bang theory/ evolution are logical theories
You're not understanding tesis, evolution IS a religion, it's falls under the catagory of scientology. What they believe is what they can prove with science. Creationalism and Evolutionism is their forte.
Just like rebelheart, I see that your passionate in your religion as well and I respect that. Not many teenagers / young adults / adults feel strongly enough to be able to defend their religion with authority. The Big Bang theory is a dominant scientific theory that spans 10 to 20 billions of years. The story behind it is too complex and long for me to try to explain. However, just the thought that our galaxy could be 10 to 20 billion years old is not that far-fetched. It makes widely more sense than what the bible wants you to believe about how old the world is.
Look at our world as it is right now and then tell me in all honesty you believe the bible's authenticity on dates.
I dont see any sense at all that the earth is over 10 billion years old,i guess it makes more sense for you because, science has teach many people that the earth is that old in schools, elementary books, high school. etc so it sounds a lot more plausible and reasonable, when its just not. think about it, plus there is not historic evidence about bones or anything that old.
On September 25 2007 11:47 TesisMech wrote: I dont see any sense at all that the earth is over 10 billion years old,i guess it makes more sense for you because, science has teach many people that the earth is that old in schools, elementary books, high school. etc so it sounds a lot more plausible and reasonable, when its just not. think about it, plus there is not historic evidence about bones or anything that old.
Taught me? Oh you misunderstood, it's understandable. I am not an Atheist or Scientologist. I'm an agnostic who respects all forms of religions. If you choose not to believe the authenticity of any science, I ask you, what do you believe. Do you believe dinosaur / rocks authenticated to a specific time frame forged? Or just believe that they were made within the span of what the bible presents?
Hm well i dont think it matter what religion you are to be deceived in text books, science books etc. I believe than God made the Dinasours and man lived together and this was at the beggining of all times which in my belief is over 6,000 years ago. If you are interested on christian beliefs about this matter you can check out
I'm sorry but that guy is about as ignorant and condescending as the next man. His views are entirely biased and he even trys to skew facts so that the argument he portrays will come out in a logical manner.
I'm sorry if you believe the world is a little over 6000 years old, but even to a lunatic that would seem a bit absurd...: (
On September 25 2007 06:04 TesisMech wrote: it does actually, and there is more videos on his account
but it clearly states the Earth is flat. Is the Earth flat?
Thats a pretty strong emphasis you have there, all bolded and everything. The only thing it really speaks of is the corners of the earth, or ends of the earth. Lets not forget that there are oceans and the north and south pole, and the word "earth" is lowercase, which most likely means that its the stuff you walk on, inhabitable areas. If I was living a few thousand years ago, the ocean would be essentally where the earth ended, because there would be no means to go past that point.
Just like right now, when we say "we" we are probably referring to humans, because we don't know if other intelligent life exists in the universe.
Either way, you really can't make that statement.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them
This can't happen on a sphere.
Genesis 1:6-10 6And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
So we have a flat earth, with primordial waters below it, and primordial waters above it that are held back by a dome.
The point is that while (parts of) the Bible may provide some nice moral teachings, it has nothing to offer in our quest for knowledge about the physical world.
What can't you understand tesis, even rebel understands, you can't prove anything, nor can I, nor can anyone in this world. It's far beyond what we can even come close to understanding.
Why have people been claiming the world is going to end next week for the past 2000 years? Why hasn't it happened yet? Why do most scholars, including biblical scholars, agree that the synoptic gospels were not actually written by the profits, but written some 50 years after their deaths using pseudonyms. Why is it that Mark is missing so many of the accounts of Jesus contained in Luke and Mathew? Could it be these were books were simply exaggerated accounts of Mark considering they were written sometime after mark?
The questions go on, the lack of historical reliability of so many biblical accounts is too heavy to take most accounts of Jesus literally.
I don't know why people feel the need to take Christianity into their lives. I mean if you were born in Iran what are your chances of being a Christian? 0%? My birthplace is arbitrary. Location seems to dictate religion. Why then is an individuals religion any less arbitrary? Answer Religion comes into peoples lives arbitrarily. Few are educated enough or cultured enough to ever make any real selection when it comes to religion. Why would god make people so dumb? Answer god didn't make shit.
On September 25 2007 00:02 Cpt Obvious wrote: Lycaeus made some good points. Faith in God in itself is not wrong at all, if that gives you strenght and hope and perspective, that's perfectly fine.
What he was saying, and I agree, is that many many many people use religion and God as a general excuse for their own fucking failures. I know I suck at studying because I am lazy. I know I am not the person with the best social skills out there, and I fucking blow at BroodWar. But what do I do?
I learn, I go out, I practice. I don't pray to some imaginative person that might exist as well as not, and hope for some divine intervention that's gonna make it all easy as pie for me. Life is tough, get over it, there is nobody to help you but yourself and maybe your family. That's it. Again, faith is ok, but row for yourself.
im a christian and i agree with everything except for when you say "dont pray"
i believe that u should row urself and that god actually wants that, and praying should be used as a way to get help from God instead of praying and just sitting there hoping that something good will come.
I believe thats also wat the bible says, i cant really quote, sorry.
For example, if i wanted to pass an extremely hard test, i would pray to help study well without distractions and then study my ass off. then before the test, pray that you would do well and that the loads of studying you did will go to good use.
I just figured out that we basically all agree. All we have to do is redefine the words reasoning, logic, sense, evidence, proof and facts, and it's all the same.
Seriously you guys, science is NOT a religion. Not in any way. It is by definition the exact counterpart of any religion. Religion is based on faith, the blind belief that God created Earth and Humans and Animals, that the world is just slightly over 6000 years old, etc. etc.
Science is based on methods to break down problems into smaller ones, and testing them till you find a theory that explains them consistently. Those experiments have to be repeatable, so everyone can see it works that way. If you throw an apple out of your window, it's gonna fall down, no matter what. That is because we have gravity. And that also explains why our planet orbits the Sun. It also explains why galaxies, stars, and planets began to build out of huge dust clouds in the first place. It's not in any way like you said "something out of nothing".
Scientists did the math up to the point where it was just 10^ -10 seconds away from the Big Bang. Granted, they do not yet know what preceeded that, but still they explain around 15 billions of years of universal history consistently. The Bible barely manages a couple of decades. In the Bible, a 4 year old can spot logical flaws. The most known one probably is "Did all animals live within walking distance of Noah's house?".
There are various others. It just does not make any. fucking. sense. Science has the facts, not religion. There are still things we don't understand, but at least we go through some fucking effort to find the answers, not just accept that "some guy did it". You are the spiritual equivalent of the guy who doesn't give a shit. AIDS? God's punishment I guess. War? Another test of faith. Poverty? Hunger? Our very existence?
You just always point the finger and blame Him. How is that any different to just saying that all human existence is coincidence?
If God ever existed, and he did in fact create Humanity, he failed horribly. Because most of us are ignorant, blindly following fuckheads that don't question the biggest bullshit story ever created.
Oh, and science doesn't charge me a monthly tax, and I can sleep as long as I want on Sundays. Suck it, Christians.
Science is trying to find an answer. No matter what the answer is. If the answer is that god exist then ok we have our answers and we are done. No hard feelings. Theories are updated and if it come up that one particular theory is wrong then it will be replaced by better one.
On the other side the Christians have their one particular answer and they are trying to prove that science is wrong so they can assume the they are right. Bad logic. They are trying to twist the bible and explain it in ways that it will finally add up a little.
So you think that earth is 6000 thousand years old? What an idiot. There are trees that 10 000+ years old. How you can proof that? Well throw seed of some random tree to soil and after 20 years take it down with chain saw. How many rings do you see? Then go to some museum and count the rings of that Pine and do the math. Plus in Valley of death you can find plant that is 20 000+ years old.
Regarding that retarded video debunking big bang. That retarded kid didn't take physics classes beyond high school level. You can destroy matter => it will becomes energy and energy doesn't occupy any space.
Science is not an religion by any means. In religion you believe that you know. In science you know that you don't know you are trying to find answer.
Oh and I love how christians thinks that their fairy tales are better then fairy tales of other religion.
Oh and that idiot who believes that all books are lying (except brainwashing christians books ofc but they are all based on one single book) but only one particular books is not lying. What if it's other way around? From stand point of probability theory that chance is pretty slim (that all books are wrong and bible is right).
Is there god? I don't know. There is plenty of evidence that he doesn't exists. But we don't have ultimate theory (thanks to what is called Planck's time). If god come to me and says "hello" then ok it won't change my life because I'm living good life and I don't have the reason change it. No big deal.
But what if it will be proven that god doesn't exists? What would you do, dear religious zealot?
On September 25 2007 20:59 sundance wrote: So you think that earth is 6000 thousand years old? What an idiot. There are trees that 10 000+ years old. How you can proof that? Well throw seed of some random tree to soil and after 20 years take it down with chain saw. How many rings do you see? Then go to some museum and count the rings of that Pine and do the math. Plus in Valley of death you can find plant that is 20 000+ years old.
Hmm, well I know the oldest tree at the moment is around 4000 years old and whatever trees in the past that claim to be 10,000 are just as disputable as fossiles and carbon dating. I don't know about the plants you're talking about in Death Valley though.
On September 25 2007 20:59 sundance wrote: So you think that earth is 6000 thousand years old? What an idiot. There are trees that 10 000+ years old. How you can proof that? Well throw seed of some random tree to soil and after 20 years take it down with chain saw. How many rings do you see? Then go to some museum and count the rings of that Pine and do the math. Plus in Valley of death you can find plant that is 20 000+ years old.
Hmm, well I know the oldest tree at the moment is around 4000 years old and whatever trees in the past that claim to be 10,000 are just as disputable as fossiles and carbon dating. I don't know about the plants you're talking about in Death Valley though.
I would love to see some evidence of the "10 000+" trees your talking about, lets consider also that radiocarbon dating its proven that its a flawed way to date how old things are, its ,margin of error its around 98.9 if u believe according to recent studies. So your argument doenst make any sense
On September 25 2007 18:01 Cpt Obvious wrote: I just figured out that we basically all agree. All we have to do is redefine the words reasoning, logic, sense, evidence, proof and facts, and it's all the same.
Seriously you guys, science is NOT a religion. Not in any way. It is by definition the exact counterpart of any religion. Religion is based on faith, the blind belief that God created Earth and Humans and Animals, that the world is just slightly over 6000 years old, etc. etc.
Science is based on methods to break down problems into smaller ones, and testing them till you find a theory that explains them consistently. Those experiments have to be repeatable, so everyone can see it works that way. If you throw an apple out of your window, it's gonna fall down, no matter what. That is because we have gravity. And that also explains why our planet orbits the Sun. It also explains why galaxies, stars, and planets began to build out of huge dust clouds in the first place. It's not in any way like you said "something out of nothing".
Scientists did the math up to the point where it was just 10^ -10 seconds away from the Big Bang. Granted, they do not yet know what preceeded that, but still they explain around 15 billions of years of universal history consistently. The Bible barely manages a couple of decades. In the Bible, a 4 year old can spot logical flaws. The most known one probably is "Did all animals live within walking distance of Noah's house?".
There are various others. It just does not make any. fucking. sense. Science has the facts, not religion. There are still things we don't understand, but at least we go through some fucking effort to find the answers, not just accept that "some guy did it". You are the spiritual equivalent of the guy who doesn't give a shit. AIDS? God's punishment I guess. War? Another test of faith. Poverty? Hunger? Our very existence?
You just always point the finger and blame Him. How is that any different to just saying that all human existence is coincidence?
If God ever existed, and he did in fact create Humanity, he failed horribly. Because most of us are ignorant, blindly following fuckheads that don't question the biggest bullshit story ever created.
Oh, and science doesn't charge me a monthly tax, and I can sleep as long as I want on Sundays. Suck it, Christians.
Giving 10% of you income for a good cause and to help the poor and church is not directly proportional to how much of a lazy asshole you are on Sundays. You see, the problem with Science is You will not accept that Big Bang theory is religion and faith is involve in it too, just like Christianity the difference is that we admit it is ,and you dont. If we talk about blindly follow something you are too without even knowing which its more sad
On September 25 2007 20:59 sundance wrote: So you think that earth is 6000 thousand years old? What an idiot. There are trees that 10 000+ years old. How you can proof that? Well throw seed of some random tree to soil and after 20 years take it down with chain saw. How many rings do you see? Then go to some museum and count the rings of that Pine and do the math. Plus in Valley of death you can find plant that is 20 000+ years old.
Hmm, well I know the oldest tree at the moment is around 4000 years old and whatever trees in the past that claim to be 10,000 are just as disputable as fossiles and carbon dating. I don't know about the plants you're talking about in Death Valley though.
I would love to see some evidence of the "10 000+" trees your talking about, lets consider also that radiocarbon dating its proven that its a flawed way to date how old things are, its ,margin of error its around 98.9 if u believe according to recent studies. So your argument doenst make any sense
August, 1999; Box Huckleberry (Gaylussacia brachycera) - researchers in Pennsylvania have discovered a living plant that is a remnant of the last Ice Age. Using the known rate of growth if this self-sterile plant, they estimated that this 1/4-acre colony is over 13,000 years old. Researchers are still trying to verify the growth rate to determine is that age is an accurate measure.
March, 2004; Eucalyptus recurva. Also known as "Mongarlowe Mallee" or "Ice Age Gum" it is the rarest Eucalypt in Australia or the world, and is known from only 5 individual specimens. Scientists in Australia are undertaking analyses to determine the exact age of one specimen that is estimated to be 13,000 years old. This aging method also relies on determining the plant's growth rate. Scientists are stilly verifying the growth and performing genetic analyses of neighboring specimens to determine if they are from the same organism.
On September 25 2007 20:59 sundance wrote: So you think that earth is 6000 thousand years old? What an idiot. There are trees that 10 000+ years old. How you can proof that? Well throw seed of some random tree to soil and after 20 years take it down with chain saw. How many rings do you see? Then go to some museum and count the rings of that Pine and do the math. Plus in Valley of death you can find plant that is 20 000+ years old.
Hmm, well I know the oldest tree at the moment is around 4000 years old and whatever trees in the past that claim to be 10,000 are just as disputable as fossiles and carbon dating. I don't know about the plants you're talking about in Death Valley though.
I would love to see some evidence of the "10 000+" trees your talking about, lets consider also that radiocarbon dating its proven that its a flawed way to date how old things are, its ,margin of error its around 98.9 if u believe according to recent studies. So your argument doenst make any sense
August, 1999; Box Huckleberry (Gaylussacia brachycera) - researchers in Pennsylvania have discovered a living plant that is a remnant of the last Ice Age. Using the known rate of growth if this self-sterile plant, they estimated that this 1/4-acre colony is over 13,000 years old. Researchers are still trying to verify the growth rate to determine is that age is an accurate measure.
March, 2004; Eucalyptus recurva. Also known as "Mongarlowe Mallee" or "Ice Age Gum" it is the rarest Eucalypt in Australia or the world, and is known from only 5 individual specimens. Scientists in Australia are undertaking analyses to determine the exact age of one specimen that is estimated to be 13,000 years old. This aging method also relies on determining the plant's growth rate. Scientists are stilly verifying the growth and performing genetic analyses of neighboring specimens to determine if they are from the same organism.
oh man, not this young earth stuff. the age of the environment etc is very important for a host of natural studies, you'd think there would be a body of theory claiming something like, 'giant mirror in the sky distorting light from stars that are raelly just 300 light years away to make them seem like 2 million light years away'
this is just plain bias. stuff like this makes things difficult for sympathizers of religious communities.
On September 25 2007 20:59 sundance wrote: So you think that earth is 6000 thousand years old? What an idiot. There are trees that 10 000+ years old. How you can proof that? Well throw seed of some random tree to soil and after 20 years take it down with chain saw. How many rings do you see? Then go to some museum and count the rings of that Pine and do the math. Plus in Valley of death you can find plant that is 20 000+ years old.
Hmm, well I know the oldest tree at the moment is around 4000 years old and whatever trees in the past that claim to be 10,000 are just as disputable as fossiles and carbon dating. I don't know about the plants you're talking about in Death Valley though.
I would love to see some evidence of the "10 000+" trees your talking about, lets consider also that radiocarbon dating its proven that its a flawed way to date how old things are, its ,margin of error its around 98.9 if u believe according to recent studies. So your argument doenst make any sense
You sir are retarded. Cite your source. 98.9? Oh really?