There is marine hiding behind the geyser ^_- and in the minerals with scv is good bunker substitute for all the bases. I think that turret helps gas collection.
Turret+depot optimizes gas collection.
Turret and Academy optimizes gas collection and mineral collection, because the minerals are badly placed and the SCVs make a weird return.
This is probably the best position for T
Firstly T is slightly advantageous on bloodbath but its not totally imba. Its like maybe 56% vs 44% at most or something like that.
Tanks are NOT auto win. In fact by the time you have enough tanks to start a push the toss usually has another base going up and they have map control and can flood middle from 3 directions. You actually have to start your push half way in your base sometimes to prevent the toss from smashing you while you setup or even countering afterwords. I've actually played a lot of long games where it comes down to carriers vs gollies and turrets.
The middle is unbuildable so it makes it hard for Terran to defend from shuttles and obs. not to mention its small and psi storm is more effective. Early shuttle and obs usually just after they start their expo is enough to delay push. its that powerful. The most imbalance comes from position. If T spawns bottom right and P is bottom left you can tank their bridge from your base. Which is pretty annoying to say the least.
NEW IMPROVED WALLS: If any of you don't know how to wall on BB I put plating on the floor to give a semi blueprint. and here are the screen shots if you're still confused.
** The mini-map in the screen shots does NOT represent this version of the map.
This version has the minerals more balanced out and the geysers are all on either the left or right for equal harassment opportunities at all bases. I am aware about the 4 on the right 3 on left gas issue but there is really no way to make it even without sacrificing compact base defense styles and space in general. So just deal with it.
As far as basic strat options here is what I use.
First of all let me mention some abnormal scouting strategies I have discovered. scout on 8 or 9 usually. A) You can leave your worker in the middle and wait to see his come out and just go to his base right away (if you scout early). B) Scout diagnol, this accomplishes a few things. 1 if hes there you see his base, 2 his worker comes in from side X while yours comes out and you know hes from that spot since you are in the next one over (get it?), 3 hes zerg and you will always know where he is on first or second scout because you will either see his lord, or see his base. If not you will see his lord come into your base, and you will know where he is (unless he doesn't scout with lord which is stupid/sucks). And 4, If hes a shitty hacker he may accuse you of 'coming straight to his base' the only way he can know this is if he himself hacks. C) Zerg can send lord to middle and leave it there and wait for scout worker to come out. I use this sometimes to counter the diagnol scout but it doesn't always work and I'd just rather scout properly with lord to see tech. ==================================Protoss=============================== (All 8 pylon builds) PvT - 9/12 gate depending on what T does (tech or mnm) I may add 1 or more gates than he has barracks if tech I will harass as much as possible (without losing zeals[very important]) while teching to goons and range. Vs MnM is really tough you have to have excellent micro and good timing as well as go for zeal legs asap while pumping zeals and u have a few goons. Usually just wait outside their base until they try and run out (with a huge force usually) and run into an empty base and waste time running around. until you have what you need. Its tough to explain but thats what I do and it usually works. Storm and Goons+range are other good variations to go for.
PvP - 10/12 gate usually harass and mass zeal fest back and forth can get up to 4-5 even 6 gate zeals with probes and shit. any tech build will usually get crushed by the mass zeal builds. the next tech can be mass goons with range which is good, but a better transition from the initial build (because of limited gas) is a few archons and storm with attack ups and forge/canons obv. Maybe some DT for map control/scouting. the problem with goon builds is they need obs and its just gas heavy in general. You only need a few HT or DT to control the middle.
PvZ - 9/10gate 1)If zerg is 4-5pooling, it is best to cancel gate and build a battery and another pylon. Also send 2-3 probes asap to harass his workers (scout diagnol on 8 btw). When zeal pops the lings will be arriving if not already there grab 3-4 probes and the zeal and micro and heal etc. 2) Versus a regular 9pool build, 9/12 gate is fine. Zerg harassment early is the main game just keep your zeals alive use micro with probes and zeals keep your base compact and at every opportunity try and repel the zerg FULLY out of your base and wall bridge with zeals probes asap and get canons up there.
The hardest part about PvZ imo is the scouting problem. Zerg has major map control and tech options at this point. You have to decipher if he is going mass ling/hydra 3(or more hatch) build otherwise known as 'vanilla build', Fast lurker tech, expansion, or even mutas (which is a crappy tech imo). One trick I use is put 2 probes on either side of your base wall you have walled your front. Click the minerals across the space so they slide through shit. Hopefully the zerg can't get both. Normally a toss can use a sair to scout but on this map its almost auto loss to tech gate and make sairs, especially just to see tech. In the case of mass lings and/or hydras you will want to quickly get 2-3 canons mass zeals and +1 attack as well as legs. In the case of fast lurkers you will want to get obs and goon/range asap. Storm helps a lot obviously but you can get by with the mass units. In the case of mutas a few canons and goons/range is usually enough to keep defended but you will need to get storm/archons in order to mount an offensive. =================================Zerg================================== I will finish the rest of these later, Flag wants to play me ^^
ZvT - 9pool/9extractor/9lord get 200 gas for burrow/speed then back to minerals. Harass a lot burrow around his base so he has trouble placing depots and shit. Pick off as many things as you can including buildings. I think its safe to say that trading lings and marine is good 2:1 unlike toss where 2 rines is not a good trade for your zealot. You can either continue harassment and 3 hatch mass lings and crush him, the vanilla style of ling/hydra with armor upgrade or something, or stop at 2nd hatch and get lurkers and take it from there. Mutas is really very situational, I mean you can really only use it if terran doesn't make MnM and goes metal since you only have 1 geyser. Another very simple build is 9pool with initial harrass (no speedlings) and don't let your lings die. Keep him occupied while fast 1 hatch teching to lurkers. You may need some sunkens as well, I don't use it that much but it has been used and works against me.
I haven't played enough of these recently (since I stopped playing for a long while) but I used to just do any regular zerg builds from 128x128 maps. Typical 9 or 12 pool builds with ling standoffs to muta/scourge battles with 1 base the entire game. But recently I played a very good zerg player who was doing some kind of hydralisk build and it was raping me, I don't know if it was because of my lack of micro or bad timing/choices but it seemed to be pretty effective.
The build I have been using recently is this: 9 overlord, if first lord hasn't scouted zerg yet- send 8 or 9th drone out, scout for the ooze to save time. If you see an early pool and/or low drone count cancel the lord and make a pool. I think it takes about 300~ HP of a morphing pool for lings to hatch, so consider that when deciding if you need a sunken. If you do need a sunken, make it on 500 HP of morphing pool so that it finishes just before your pool does. Defend his rush, and then use your drone advantage to make another hatch sooner and continue massing lings, get extractor and speed as they are allowed by leftover mins. If you have been just massing lings and lords off your 2 hatches. At about 50-70% of the speed upgrade, you should have about 2-3 groups of lings, and you can begin to move out. Hopefully by the time you are positioned your speed kicks in and you just wrap his whole base. If he is teching with sunkens you should be able to kill enough drones to cripple him. If he got mutas out during this timing attack, you should still have enough time to make evo chamber and 2 spores to protect yourself.
If he doesn't rush, continue your 9lord build and make a pool accordingly, if he made a 9pool, do an overpool, if he made and overpool make a 12pool. The ultimate goal is to have the better econ in the start to get your 2nd hatch and larva advantage and outling him. It works especially well versus 9pool speed builds because their speedlings can't even penetrate your bridge, which completely nullifies his speed/map control. You can move out when your speed kicks in later and he is way behind at that point.
Versus the same build, I haven't had much experience yet but basically I think it boils down to getting a 3rd hatch and massing even more lings and getting lair/spire with extra minerals in the same way that you did with the speed upgrade.
ZvP - 9pool/9ex/9lord mass 100 gas for speed then back to minerals. Mass lings nonstop and build hatches with excess. I usually use the 3 hatch 'vanilla zerg'. Only time to build drones is to replace for the hatch you built, or when you have your 3rd hatch done and you have somewhat map control I usually make a volley of drones(4-9, situational). But often I see I need more tech and use 2 hatch lurker, or even mutas (but generally its hard to use mutas on bb due to lack of gas). If you can get lurkers setup in the middle with ling/hydra support and scourges to pop the obs you can pretty much lockdown any toss.
PS- 4&5 pool is always viable, although most decent players will be able to stop it. It can still be very good at crippling an opponent or controlling the flow of the game.
===============================Terran================================== Terran has so many options on bloodbath, this is one of the reasons why this map is in their favor. They can always try to do some kind of SCV rush early on and still recover while totally screwing up the early game build strats; for example.
TvP - 1) 9depot/10rax/10depot (wall) at bridge. If toss gets in the base before wall is up though, take your gas before he manner-gas you. Then that opens up another problem though. Toss can build pylons or whatever and try and screw up your wall. Its annoying and you have to pull half your SCV to stop him and keep probes away (this often relies on base scouting luck). Make a marine or two and then a factory asap (you could even try to harass with a rine and kill a probe if your lucky). Keep an scv running around the map as long as possible you need to know what to build early on (if hes gonna try and break your wall, or tech goons, etc.) Make more rines whenever cash allows (usually i get 3-4). If he makes a lot of zeals get a vult or 2 before tank, otherwise get tank first. I usually have to keep 2-3 SCV around the wall to repair. If toss anticipates the tech build they often 1 gate goon asap. Often times I will build a bunker behind the wall to extend marine range before and buy a little time for tanks. I usually try and get vulture upgrades first (because obs are usually slower) but sometimes you MUST get siege mode first. Also if you suspect DT or drop tech make your ebay on the closest side to his base and float it over for scouting purposes (you will either see a lot of goons to kill it or very few which implies tech) and build a few turrets in key spots. 2) I'm not too sure on the details of this build because I don't prefer it but it is very viable. 9rax/10depot/11rax/11bunker (near CC) proceed with typical MnM build. 3rd rax around 15-18 supply (i'm not positive). Make sure you keep you base scouted so he doesn't surprise you with proxy canons/batteries (you must counter this asap with Marines/SCV and micro). Get medics and stim/range tech, turrets and scan as well. Then switch to metal (vults/mines first even) if he doesn't die at this point. Also watch for out for storm. 3) This is the older method I used for typical TvP before I discovered how to wall (previously thought you couldn't except top left). 9rax/10depot/11bunker(nearCC) Very few marines 4 in bunker and like 2-3 in minerals for microing. You want a nice compact base put as much shit around the bunker as possible to prevent zealots from harassing easily (and especially picking off building SCVs). Get your factory up asap (somewhere between 15-18 supply). Get tanks and siege mode asap as well. You will want to siege the tank(s) just behind the CC or bunker until you can work up enough force to take your entrance with a bunker. Remember to keep scouting with SCV too, so you can decide if you need turrets and/or scan faster. (the ebay floated over a turret trick as saved my ass dozens of times versus a late discoverd dt rush) 4)There is even a variation to the MnM build that instead of making a CC-bunk you take 2-3 SCV and rally your first marines to their base and make the bunker near his gates. It forces toss to pull probes and micro vs scv/marines until he has more zealots. Even if the bunker does not get built the zealots/probes will be weakened or dead, his economy is weakened slightly and you can retreat safely. By the time the Protoss is on the offensive you will have enough marines stocked up in your compact base to skip making a defensive bunker.
There is even an old 'vanilla build' that works quite well. Mass marines and tanks with bunkers+range(turrets,scan,and stim if needed as well.)
TvZ - 8rax/10depot/11bunk(nearCC) Yes, this build DOES stop a 4-5pool as well as any other early pool build. Your first marine will come out and the bunker will finish at like the exact time the lings show up (proceed to micro/repair with SCV). If they don't choose a rush build you may even sub out the 11 bunk with another Barracks and make the bunk a bit later. Proceed with typical MnM build, try and scout as much as possible to see if fast lurkers or expansion is teching. When you have about 6-9 marines take about 3-4 SCV and the marines and go to your bridge and build a bunker keep the scv there at least until the bunker finishes. I will usually make my ebay near the entrance as well just to narrow the opening a bit and get +1 attack up. Once you have typical MnM force (10 rines 2 meds 2bats) move out (but be weary of burrowlings or 3 sided middle flooding pincer attack of lings and/or lurkers.) You want to attack if possible but at the least keep the lurkers back and delay as much as possible until tanks/vessel come. Use your minimap eyes and be ready to stim, scan, and target anything that comes into the middle. When the Zerg pushes you back to your base you should be getting range soon so the bunker/turret can hit lurkers safely or tanks and scan. Once you have tanks (you don't even need siege btw) you can press into the middle and take a base or attack him or his expansion.
EDIT- Originally I had 9rax here but changed it to 8 after some extensive testing. 9 is not going to work against any half decent skilled/scouting/harrassing opponent. The lings will arrive slightly before the marine/bunker finish and thats if you don't get slowed-harassed. Even then its still a bit of luck and/or super hard micro to get in the bunk and repair etc.
There are a few different ways to play TvT that are very unusual. TvT - 1)9rax/10depot at bridge. You don't need to complete a full wall as marines can get through anyways. Make marines asap and be ready to micro them with SCV support as well. If he went 2 or more barracks and/or MnM you will need to throw down a bunker near the rax and depot and put your 3-4 marines in it then get your factory. Otherwise skip bunker and make factory first. If he is doing similar build it may be wiser to get tank first but if he went marine build you will probably need 3-4 vultures and SCVs near by bunker to repair before you get tanks. Some may get 1 tank and siege going and immediately get a starport with wraith and dropship for harassment to control as well as mainly building tanks. If you scout port going up (usually by floating rax) it is wise to get an ebay, build a few key turrets, and build a few goliaths with range and +1attack upgrade. If he goes mass wraiths (which is hard from lack of gas) just turtle and make a few more gols, pick off as many tanks as you can and leap frog into a new base or into his main. From here on its typical TvT seige battles with floating buildings, turrets, gollies and drops. If you eventually get 2 or 3 bases BC are very good late game. Another variation of this build that might work is mass vults and mines before tanks, but scans and marines usually are pretty good at stopping it. Its usually best to just gain footing with tanks and expand asap. 2) Alternate build is 8rax/9depot/10rax mass marines and SCVs keep pressuring T, if you get a chance try and send 6 or more scv with all your marines and wrap them around the bunker and smash it, even if you don't win right then it gives you a good advantage and you can kill his depot etc. Just make sure you can defend a counter attack of vultures or a tank. From here on its just like I described in the first option. MnM or marines into tanks.
I think I covered most of the basic strategies, If anyone has anything else to add or patch my builds, please send me a PM or whatever.
======================================================================= As far as imbalance goes on this map: T>P/T>Z slightly, it is situational and positional as well. Z>P slightly again, its positional and situational. Just to reiterate I think Terran is only like 56%:44% imbalance, its not blatantly imbalanced. Use your head when Terran has tanks all over the place, you have a few options.
PS- Surfer4Life is an excellent T player on BB (although BM at times) he usually uses a MnM vulture build that rapes me like 80% of the time PvT.
Also There is another little trick/glitch in the map that allows small units like zerglings to run between the edge of the map and an assimilator at top left spot. This can be abused to sneak passed cannons. As far as I'm concerned its not totally imba because it can be easily countered. The only thing that is totally bullshit is the SCV stack rush. That is a huge exploit and the moment you see someone trying it you should try and quit and take a draw game (if its before 2 minutes) if not, you can try to build on the geyser to stop the exploit.
Final Note: Play more Blood Bath people! You have the knowledge now. I find it harder and harder to find decent Blood Bath opponents these days. It makes me a shittier player when I have no challenge. This is why I don't care if you know all my strats, It helps me play better when you know what to do. Makes the game more fun (imo anyways).
EDIT 10/22/07- New version 1.36 Alphablend and I noticed that top right base was the only position that had the marine pop outside the wall. This was exploitable, so I fixed it. Its the same DL link as above http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=3527
Those protoss builds are weak; they are standard for larger maps. Protoss is very strong on BloodBath, especially against a 9-drone zerg or a 10rax terran if you cut probes.
ZvP you always 4 drone. Even a 6-gate protoss cannot stop that. A terran might stop it just with the sheer strength of scvs.
On July 31 2007 19:32 WhatisProtoss wrote: Those protoss builds are weak; they are standard for larger maps. Protoss is very strong on BloodBath, especially against a 9-drone zerg or a 10rax terran if you cut probes.
ZvP you always 4 drone. Even a 6-gate protoss cannot stop that. A terran might stop it just with the sheer strength of scvs.
I didn't say Protoss was weak, I said it was hard to scout PvZ so that makes deciphering Zerg builds very hard. And scouting is very limited for early toss creating a minor imbalance.
Seriously dude 4pool is auto loss vs any build i do , even ZvZ 9pool will beat it with proper micro. You sound like a typical arrogant korean, you need to shut it down.
Obviously these builds are just basic guidelines as well. You must still be able to adapt to strange builds or rushes. IE, PvP enemy 5 gates or something fast, be prepared to make a gate earlier etc.
And to answer your question Brood, My HD broke last year along with 1000s of bloodbath replays. Most of my newer replays I don't consider to be worthy enough to learn from because I am rusty from not having computer/internet/work as well as a year break when WoW ate my soul.
I used 9pool/gas making lings constantly and building 2nd hath in P base (somehow close to go to his base whit sunken he should not see it as he will camp whit first zealots between buildings), dunno haw valid is that bo I played only couple times always vs 2 gate and he did not have enough zealots to fight in field before my hath morphed then fast sunken and next will hit his buildings.
Z>P and T>P might not be terribly imbalanced (actually, with a well executed Zeal + cannon rush, P is probably the favorite in PvT!), but T>Z definately is. 1 base Terran is strong and 1 base (gas) Zerg is a joke.
I only skimmed through your text, you mentioned "good" strategies but ZvT is so goddamn hard vs. T on that map, even with these builds, it's ridiculous. You might win if: a) you are simply better (heh) b) you manage to kill him with speedlings early on c) you manage to kill him with 1 hatch fast lurker tech d) you are able to get defilers
But most of the time you simply don't win versus a similarly skilled opponent, and most of the time you will be dead way before defiler tech. Mutas are basically useless for harassing (short distances = easy defense), so you're forced to do lurk/ling and you can't keep T inside his base, he'll probably contain you all the time, when you finally get lurkers he'll add turrets and snipe the few lurks you have, you don't have the gas to rebuild enough lurkers, tanks kill your sunkens, GG. Or you die even earlier. If not, the T player sucked or wasn't familiar enough with playing on Bloodbath.
I think it's more realistic to say: P>T early game 53%/47%, if mid or late game is reached then T>P 60%/40% (main reason: no space for proper flanking and T has easy map control and can even fire at your side minerals if bases are next to each other) Z>P 53%/47% T>Z 65%/35%
But maybe you should ask a real Bloodbath "pro"/addict, like alphablend. If he's still active... he used to own on that map.
I have played with alpha a lot and I'm sure he would agree with me on most of these builds. Late game pvt is closer to 50/50 than any other matchup. And why do people always mention that sorry zeal canon rush build. Any decent player will see it and crush it with SCV/Marine or even have tanks by the time the canons get deep (if they teched).
Mid game ZvT is not a walk in the park for terran either. If the zerg correctly harassed and kept him locked in his base with lurkers for a few minutes. This allows Z time to expand. Now when the terran finally has the power to move out the zerg will have the ability to flood the middle from 3 angles with lurkers/scourge/lings. It is scary as terran to move out too fast. The most a terran will have is 3-4rax, 1 factory, 1 starport, +1 upg, and few scans. Zerg will have 4 hatches, 2 geysers, carapace, and spire, as well as map control. There is not a lot of space to maneuver MnM vs lurkers.
As for the 4v9pool: The 9-10 drones will be naked for a few seconds yes, but its not hard to micro with minimal losses (if any) until your lings pop, Even if he does kill half your drones you still have a better econ. If he is good he will stay on offensive as long as possible with lings rallied to you. Its not easy for him to win though.
Not to brag but ive beaten you multiple times on bloodbath charlie. Also about the balance t>z pretty hard the only legitimate stategy for zerg is fast hatch play but good terrans can stop it.z>=p basically because it is harder for toss because zergs can just take the two patches of extra minerals and can either go mass hydra/ling attack or muta or lurkers and its hard to know what they're doing but im very good at knowing what they're doing so its not so bad.p=>t 2 gate zealot rush is basically ineffective vs a good terran but they still have to defend it so it gives you a early advantage then you can 2 gate goon which the best counter to this is 3 rax m&m but if you have good micro your good then you can use dts well to get expos and you should always have more expos so its not so bad either
k I read your bo's for the mu's and i must say i disagree on many. PvT- theres this insane mind game with goons vs m&m in the beginning because if they go 3 rax all in rine/firebats/scvs and time it well its fucking incredibly hard to beat. But if you have good timing yourself and good goon micro you stand a chance + dt's are almost essential against any of this dts can kill a marine in one swipe and + terrans almost have to have 2 cc's because one scanner is not enough to handle 4+ dts attacking and running. So by this time you can get a expo and start pumping which then you can either go carriers/or arbiters or just pump either way its pretty easy to win.
PvP- this is all about zealot micro i think its safe to tech once you get 10+ or more zealots and wall off your base then you either dt or goon i usually goon because its safer.
PvZ - theres a lot you could say about this mu you can 2 gate / cannon rush which works suprisingly better than you would think so. it forces zerg to slow down and not just plop 2 extra hatches down and the rest i agree with you on about this mu about scouting and how muta are pretty sucky unless your caught off guard. I found the best thing to do is just actually turtle yourself and get extra nexus and use the extra patches and scout very well and just overpower them.
ZvT - i find you have the best chance playing 1 hatch style and being insanely aggressive but good terrans can stop it basically it requires insanish savior like timing to have a chance to beat good tvz'ers imo.
ZvP - pretty straight forward i like to 5 hat mass ling/mass hydra +1 armor all in attacks pretty hard to stop then tech to lurk or muta and harass get expos and just overpower.
ZvZ - pretty odd mu try to get early advantage with lings and w.e pool you go if you go 9 pool and they go 12 your majorly behind. dont tech to quickly just like pvp basically.
TvP - your base screen shots are all right but I usually build much prettier :D and walling is pretty much pointless if you think about it most terran bloodbath vets know this.m&m are pretty powerful till mid game i like to go 3 rax m&m/bats/scvs most toss dont know how to stop it and then have a extra cc in your base so you have an extra scanner for dt's and also +1 armor so rines dont get slaughtered by dt's. I also like to switch to metal and as long as you dont lose your units and keep pushing and pressuring you can keep up but its insanely hard imo just as hard as toss for pvz.
TvZ - Very easy mu i dont think theres a bb player in the world who could beat me 3 out of 5 games in this mu. I have the most trouble against really aggressive zergs but if you get your bunk up and marine range it pretty much fucks speed lings. Theres a few players that have real good muta timing and such but its too hard for the zerg to get there expo running and usually just get overrun. Theres a special zerg i know whos showed me many zvt tricks like mass ling burrow then i go out and they unburrow rape my whole force lol of course that only works once. Or tricky stop lurkers then rape my whole force.
TvT - I find it funny that terrans who try to tech i sometimes just pump 3 rax m&m/all my scvs then just go all in before they get they're tank and rape them quite easily. But if your not playing gay like that its pretty much a battle about securing the middle getting a wraith fast because thats crucial to get the middle. I like to go 1 fact 1 starport build and secure the middle because once thats done its very difficult for the other player to win.
but ya ive played bloodbath since i started playing brood war like 5 years ago so i consider myself a pretty good bb player. I play on east under the name J.Dawg got many aka's. I havent played in months though so im pretty rusty but id say ive probably got the most solid protoss on bloodbath. I play well with all the races and understand them very deeply. I think the best version of bb is Blood bath Tourney edition i really have no idea who ever made it but i assume you have it its white and very positionally balanced.
Im pretty sure ive seen you play on east because i remember something similiar to a charliemurphy id and I know ive played and won but idk for sure ive played so many games.. Do you know players like keazn422 a pretty solid terran I caught him hacking years ago he says he dont now but i still think he does lol but hes pretty good. Wheremydogsat some 30 yr old korean dude but has a fucking solid zerg one of the best. Slicey/aka enforcer/destroyer or something i used to think he was real good years ago then i just got better but hes pretty decent old school bb player. Hellmuth-x17 aka hellmuth pretty damn good bb player plays very similar to me shares many thoughts very good player. Then i know a bunch of dumb players who are all right but arnt that good slowfx aka concur bad fur day or something , then theres JMC mexican not that good really, R]A[I]N all right player, theres some others but kind of forget them at the moment
have played you long ago, but not under charliemurphy (i pretty much only use this ID here) my accounts on bnet were either eye-loser or SpoR/spor[mech]/spor.one I do not recall who won or whatever its probably like 1.09 or something. But you can't tech mass goons and have money for DT vs mnm.
that tourney edition basically just changes the terrain a bit to plating its stupid. My friend from bnet made it on west, op utoa his name is rainvortex/-exu-
I think its viable to dt tech while you pump goons and as long as you have very good micro its safe to do.. and unless you want to waste money on cannons or 3 gate goon its what you have to do to stop 3 rax m&m rushes..the name eye-loser sounds a little familiar and ive played people from [mech] but they were embarassingly bad
If you are gonna go goons with a dts, you might as well just get storm I see no use for DT on bloodbath other than to scout and stop expos, or the occasional rush.
PS-Manablue the reason why everyone thinks they are BB pros is because they play nothing but noobs on it all day and that kinda boosts yer ego
I know I am not a pro, but I do understand many concepts and strats on the map.
The nice thing about BB is that micro is so damn important, it's different than playing the usual macro style maps. Still, I don't consider it a good map to show off your skill. Although there are several very strong players (I think alphablend and some guy from i2 clan (forgot the name) are probably the strongest I've seen on the map), it is a very specialized skill and good players on regular maps can always put up a good fight on BB as well, so they are better all-round. T>Z is terribly imbalanced, but if you play other matchups then the map is OK, and it's fun to be forced to control your units well. It's basically the only map that really forces you to micro well. I especially enjoy TvP/PvT on it.
On August 05 2007 12:58 CharlieMurphy wrote: [Mech] East totally sucks, this was west.
If you are gonna go goons with a dts, you might as well just get storm I see no use for DT on bloodbath other than to scout and stop expos, or the occasional rush.
PS-Manablue the reason why everyone thinks they are BB pros is because they play nothing but noobs on it all day and that kinda boosts yer ego
I know I am not a pro, but I do understand many concepts and strats on the map.
\
Like I said unless you want to build 2 cannons or 3 gate goon you have to build dt's to stop 3 rax m&m/firebat rushes. There is not enough to time to get storm unless you want to turtle behind cannons and lose map control.
Seriously this doesn't make sense. If you can make DT's how is there no time to get HT? its the same damn tech. Besides any terran will have scans, they only need like 2 max to seal the deal.
If he goes 3 rax you have to build more gates and maybe some canons at your choke.
On August 07 2007 11:31 Brutalisk wrote: The nice thing about BB is that micro is so damn important, it's different than playing the usual macro style maps. Still, I don't consider it a good map to show off your skill. Although there are several very strong players (I think alphablend and some guy from i2 clan (forgot the name) are probably the strongest I've seen on the map), it is a very specialized skill and good players on regular maps can always put up a good fight on BB as well, so they are better all-round. T>Z is terribly imbalanced, but if you play other matchups then the map is OK, and it's fun to be forced to control your units well. It's basically the only map that really forces you to micro well. I especially enjoy TvP/PvT on it.
i2.dino back when I was very active I played him some times. He is one of the most skilled players I have ever played, he was ranked #2 in the USA at the time in which ever ladder was the most popular at the time (I honestly don't remember). He had superb theoretical understanding of the game and excellent application, his Protoss was very difficult to beat. I'm not going to name drop here but I have played and beat a few pros on Blood Bath
edit -- what is your bnet handle I'm guessing I have played you in the past? BTW I'm pretty much inactive now, I get on and play sometimes... but nothing like I used to.
Im pretty sure ive seen you play on east because i remember something similiar to a charliemurphy id and I know ive played and won but idk for sure ive played so many games.Do you know players like keazn422 a pretty solid terran I caught him hacking years ago he says he dont now but i still think he does lol but hes pretty good.. Wheremydogsat some 30 yr old korean dude but has a fucking solid zerg one of the best. Slicey/aka enforcer/destroyer or something i used to think he was real good years ago then i just got better but hes pretty decent old school bb player. Hellmuth-x17 aka hellmuth pretty damn good bb player plays very similar to me shares many thoughts very good player. Then i know a bunch of dumb players who are all right but arnt that good slowfx aka concur bad fur day or something , then theres JMC mexican not that good really, R]A[I]N all right player, theres some others but kind of forget them at the moment
I am 100% sure he hacks, he accidentally sent me a screenshot (with his camera not in game) of him playing and eating to show me how "pro" he was in the background on the monitor you could see my name typing some text to prove it was him eating the food. In the background you could see
"map hack lite" "map hack full" "map hack off"
he was trying to hide it, but to stupid to realize it was in the pic. What a genius. You can't call him a good solid player because he relies on the hack SO much to counter you.
On July 31 2007 17:14 IntoTheWow wrote: surfer4life is an idiot.
He may be BM sometimes, but last time I was playing with him he was KoTH (King of the hill) in the underground BGH ladder, which is amazing because he is a USA Terran player. I played him a bit on Blood Bath, and he disliked losing quite a bit, his biggest problem, he is predictable.
Im pretty sure ive seen you play on east because i remember something similiar to a charliemurphy id and I know ive played and won but idk for sure ive played so many games.Do you know players like keazn422 a pretty solid terran I caught him hacking years ago he says he dont now but i still think he does lol but hes pretty good.. Wheremydogsat some 30 yr old korean dude but has a fucking solid zerg one of the best. Slicey/aka enforcer/destroyer or something i used to think he was real good years ago then i just got better but hes pretty decent old school bb player. Hellmuth-x17 aka hellmuth pretty damn good bb player plays very similar to me shares many thoughts very good player. Then i know a bunch of dumb players who are all right but arnt that good slowfx aka concur bad fur day or something , then theres JMC mexican not that good really, R]A[I]N all right player, theres some others but kind of forget them at the moment
I am 100% sure he hacks, he accidentally sent me a screenshot (with his camera not in game) of him playing and eating to show me how "pro" he was in the background on the monitor you could see my name typing some text to prove it was him eating the food. In the background you could see
"map hack lite" "map hack full" "map hack off"
he was trying to hide it, but to stupid to realize it was in the pic. What a genius. You can't call him a good solid player because he relies on the hack SO much to counter you.
I've always known hes hacked I just think its funny that I still beat him while he hacks.
J.dawg don't talk like you're one of the top BB players on east. I consider wheremydogsat a very strong Z player on BB. Although I don't use T, my TvZ on bb is decent due to the obvious imbal of TvZ. I played dogs probably 50+ 1v1 tvz's... I started out winning about 80%+ and it slowly dwindled down to about 50-50. Now he probably wins slightly more 1v1 in zvt. I know if I had better micro with M&M I would probably be able to win more. Back in the day the only way he would win is if he gank'ed me with some gay strat like mass burrow lings at choke, hiding hydra (morphing lurker inside my base near the 3 min patches) or other extremely gay strat to kill me fast (5 pool, massive fast lings and rush in and pray to win, or slow overlord lurker drop). I personally like P, since I believe P>T slightly, and P = Z. Perhaps I just havent been playing the right Z to make me believe otherwise. Ke is very good at tvp, and Dino is probably one of the remaining top P's on east for bb (although he rarely comes on now).
On August 01 2007 02:47 Polis wrote: I used 9pool/gas making lings constantly and building 2nd hath in P base (somehow close to go to his base whit sunken he should not see it as he will camp whit first zealots between buildings), dunno haw valid is that bo I played only couple times always vs 2 gate and he did not have enough zealots to fight in field before my hath morphed then fast sunken and next will hit his buildings.
2nd hatch in toss base doesnt work vs a great player like me. Worker stack + Zealots = GG
On August 04 2007 09:55 TheGreatOne wrote: Not to brag but ive beaten you multiple times on bloodbath charlie. Also about the balance t>z pretty hard the only legitimate stategy for zerg is fast hatch play but good terrans can stop it.z>=p basically because it is harder for toss because zergs can just take the two patches of extra minerals and can either go mass hydra/ling attack or muta or lurkers and its hard to know what they're doing but im very good at knowing what they're doing so its not so bad.p=>t 2 gate zealot rush is basically ineffective vs a good terran but they still have to defend it so it gives you a early advantage then you can 2 gate goon which the best counter to this is 3 rax m&m but if you have good micro your good then you can use dts well to get expos and you should always have more expos so its not so bad either
You dont go M&M vs toss PERIOD. You go 2 rax marines, 1 bunk at entrance, 2 factory --> 3 fact. 1 with add on, 2 without addon. Seige tanks + vulture spider mines.
On August 04 2007 10:28 TheGreatOne wrote: k I read your bo's for the mu's and i must say i disagree on many. PvT- theres this insane mind game with goons vs m&m in the beginning because if they go 3 rax all in rine/firebats/scvs and time it well its fucking incredibly hard to beat. But if you have good timing yourself and good goon micro you stand a chance + dt's are almost essential against any of this dts can kill a marine in one swipe and + terrans almost have to have 2 cc's because one scanner is not enough to handle 4+ dts attacking and running. So by this time you can get a expo and start pumping which then you can either go carriers/or arbiters or just pump either way its pretty easy to win.
Wrong, good terran doesnt go m&M vs toss
PvZ - theres a lot you could say about this mu you can 2 gate / cannon rush which works suprisingly better than you would think so. it forces zerg to slow down and not just plop 2 extra hatches down and the rest i agree with you on about this mu about scouting and how muta are pretty sucky unless your caught off guard. I found the best thing to do is just actually turtle yourself and get extra nexus and use the extra patches and scout very well and just overpower them.
2 gate cannon rush fails. You just wasted 150 minerals forge , zerg will outproduce you even more. Why dont you try to cannon rush me.
ZvP - pretty straight forward i like to 5 hat mass ling/mass hydra +1 armor all in attacks pretty hard to stop then tech to lurk or muta and harass get expos and just overpower.
LOL 5 hatchery!! LOL Try three.
TvP - your base screen shots are all right but I usually build much prettier :D and walling is pretty much pointless if you think about it most terran bloodbath vets know this.m&m are pretty powerful till mid game i like to go 3 rax m&m/bats/scvs most toss dont know how to stop it and then have a extra cc in your base so you have an extra scanner for dt's and also +1 armor so rines dont get slaughtered by dt's. I also like to switch to metal and as long as you dont lose your units and keep pushing and pressuring you can keep up but its insanely hard imo just as hard as toss for pvz.
Yeah okay. You dont make M&M vs toss. You make marines, vults, and tanks.
TvZ - Very easy mu i dont think theres a bb player in the world who could beat me 3 out of 5 games in this mu. I have the most trouble against really aggressive zergs but if you get your bunk up and marine range it pretty much fucks speed lings. Theres a few players that have real good muta timing and such but its too hard for the zerg to get there expo running and usually just get overrun. Theres a special zerg i know whos showed me many zvt tricks like mass ling burrow then i go out and they unburrow rape my whole force lol of course that only works once. Or tricky stop lurkers then rape my whole force.
I will beat you 5 out of 5, me zerg. Btw, you dont make mutas in zvt, you make lurkers on bb.
TvT - I find it funny that terrans who try to tech i sometimes just pump 3 rax m&m/all my scvs then just go all in before they get they're tank and rape them quite easily. But if your not playing gay like that its pretty much a battle about securing the middle getting a wraith fast because thats crucial to get the middle. I like to go 1 fact 1 starport build and secure the middle because once thats done its very difficult for the other player to win.
ORLY? You 3 rax rush me. Ill 1 rax then factory. Ill even vision you.
but ya ive played bloodbath since i started playing brood war like 5 years ago so i consider myself a pretty good bb player. I play on east under the name J.Dawg got many aka's. I havent played in months though so im pretty rusty but id say ive probably got the most solid protoss on bloodbath. I play well with all the races and understand them very deeply. I think the best version of bb is Blood bath Tourney edition i really have no idea who ever made it but i assume you have it its white and very positionally balanced.
You arent good, and I got reps lol.
Im pretty sure ive seen you play on east because i remember something similiar to a charliemurphy id and I know ive played and won but idk for sure ive played so many games.. Do you know players like keazn422 a pretty solid terran I caught him hacking years ago he says he dont now but i still think he does lol but hes pretty good. Wheremydogsat some 30 yr old korean dude but has a fucking solid zerg one of the best. Slicey/aka enforcer/destroyer or something i used to think he was real good years ago then i just got better but hes pretty decent old school bb player. Hellmuth-x17 aka hellmuth pretty damn good bb player plays very similar to me shares many thoughts very good player. Then i know a bunch of dumb players who are all right but arnt that good slowfx aka concur bad fur day or something , then theres JMC mexican not that good really, R]A[I]N all right player, theres some others but kind of forget them at the moment
On August 05 2007 12:58 CharlieMurphy wrote: [Mech] East totally sucks, this was west.
If you are gonna go goons with a dts, you might as well just get storm I see no use for DT on bloodbath other than to scout and stop expos, or the occasional rush.
PS-Manablue the reason why everyone thinks they are BB pros is because they play nothing but noobs on it all day and that kinda boosts yer ego
I know I am not a pro, but I do understand many concepts and strats on the map.
PLENTY of use for DT on bb.
GOON + DT containment of of vultures, tanks. Prevents terran from taking over middle terran cant make turret in the middle of map. Hit and run harrasss.
Of course, if the terran is a retard enough to make marines and medics vs toss, then you go HT.
Im pretty sure ive seen you play on east because i remember something similiar to a charliemurphy id and I know ive played and won but idk for sure ive played so many games.Do you know players like keazn422 a pretty solid terran I caught him hacking years ago he says he dont now but i still think he does lol but hes pretty good.. Wheremydogsat some 30 yr old korean dude but has a fucking solid zerg one of the best. Slicey/aka enforcer/destroyer or something i used to think he was real good years ago then i just got better but hes pretty decent old school bb player. Hellmuth-x17 aka hellmuth pretty damn good bb player plays very similar to me shares many thoughts very good player. Then i know a bunch of dumb players who are all right but arnt that good slowfx aka concur bad fur day or something , then theres JMC mexican not that good really, R]A[I]N all right player, theres some others but kind of forget them at the moment
I am 100% sure he hacks, he accidentally sent me a screenshot (with his camera not in game) of him playing and eating to show me how "pro" he was in the background on the monitor you could see my name typing some text to prove it was him eating the food. In the background you could see
"map hack lite" "map hack full" "map hack off"
he was trying to hide it, but to stupid to realize it was in the pic. What a genius. You can't call him a good solid player because he relies on the hack SO much to counter you.
You are mad you have 100 APM. You wanna see replays of me raping you? Whats funny is, you fear me SOOOO MUCH. You have become such a paranoid little turd, that you /stats every player who joins your game. You wont play anyone with under 200 wins and you type /whereis every player that joins to check for my spoofer. It makes it even funner when I rape you. Its like all your attempts to avoid me fails.
Charlie, the guy who made the guide. Who the hell makes a 2 supply + barrack wall?
1) TVT you are screwed. The other guy has marines on the outside owning your buildings. You try to get out single file and your marines get owned.
2) TvZ you are owned. You think you have time for 2 supply depot when 6 lings come? Your building is too far from minerals that you cant use worker support to fend off rushes. RESULT: 2 owned supply depots, 1-2 scvs owned, 1 rax owned, and no marines.
3) TvP you are owned. If you go two supply first, you delay your 2nd rax. The toss can easily switch to goons before you get tanks. Even without ranged goons, your supply and rax are toast. You will see this in a replay of me vs THEGREATONE aka JDAWG. My treat.
NOBODY Bunkers inside the base. Its a waste of 100 minerals. Toss and Zerg and maneuver around your bunker preventing you from building other units. When goon comes, you are owned even more. The only time you would EVER make a bunker near minerals if maybe a zerg is 4 pooling. The rest of the time, 1 bunker at entrance covers EVERYTHING. Prevents zealots rushes, prevents lurkers, prevents goons till you get tanks.
Enforcer/Slicey is a newb. Evil(V)agiclord got better, I taught him how to 2v2. The guy used to make 2-3 cannons EVERY GAME from the start. Im 16-0 vs JMCMexican, he knew something was up when he kept getting owned over and over by by a different name one after the other. LOL! Wheremydogsat can only win when he 4 pools me. Otherwise he is game over.
I am the best Terran BB player in the world. Hellmuth is the best Toss BB player in the world. Together our 2v2 Bloodbath is 215 wins 0 losses. If you wanna get owned 1v1, whisper me. If you wanna get owned 2v2, whisper me and hellmuth-x17. Dont even bitch about hacks. I will turn on penguin plug, and record video of my sc screen using Camstasia.
ke422azn3 , You really make a good impression of yourself coming in here misquoting shit and then claiming you are the best player.. Yet you cannot even find the 'edit post' button and you make 15 posts in a row.
btw mind telling anyone what version those reps are? You know they don't work with new patches right?
edit- Lmao, you really are an idiot. Thats not me the guy's name is Blood_Bath my account was Bloodbath and I only used it on west. Where you from, east? (who am I kidding, you have to be from east with your attitude)
ke I have beat you pvt just by cannon rushing rofl. Your other races suck bad so dont even fucking comment on anything other than terran. You laugh at 5 hatch zvp. 3 hatch wont be able to maintain all them minerals you fucking newb. You say dont ever go m&m vs toss? That gets so predictable that its not hard to counter you at all. Me and wheremydogsat beat you constantly you come in here and post 3 reps of beating me congratulations I dont even give a fuck.
btw me and wheremydogsat have beat you and hellmuth.
Lets play 5 games right now. Im ke422azn2 on useast wisper me. You arent wheremydogsat. Dogs has 200+ apm. You have 100 apm. Doesnt matter if my terran build is predictable, its solid.
Ask anybody in the bb community. I > you. My other races are bad? My zerg beats you every game as well.
On September 04 2007 06:16 ke422azn3 wrote: Lets play 5 games right now. Im ke422azn2 on useast wisper me. You arent wheremydogsat. Dogs has 200+ apm. You have 100 apm. Doesnt matter if my terran build is predictable, its solid.
Ask anybody in the bb community. I > you. My other races are bad? My zerg beats you every game as well.
When the fuck did I say I was wheremydogsat. I haven't played bw in like 6 or 7 months. You have never beat me with any other race than your terran. Your other races are weak as fuck.
so play me then. Why didnt you wisper me all day. When I said you arent wheremydogsat, i meant it figuratively. What it means is that you are nowhere NEAR his zerg level. Noob. Enough talking, 1v1 me
Your list of BB players includes some pretty crude bnet west characters, wow I can't believe their names are still burned into my mind after all these years.
No its cool, just note that there is a difference between the original thread and this blog (the blog is better, other than the Ke422azn fag's jibberish)
Also another player named Dragoon44 @west is somewhat of a decent player but he maphacks. I still have fun playing with him because he doesn't say much or act like the typical BM hacker type.
I'll play some 1v1 bloodbath if people want to play. I played it some a while ago and it seemed fun! Nobody appears to be in TL-West at the moment though
Also reading all those ke posts in a row was kind of surreal, it felt like somehow all the other posts in between his posts got deleted.
These stats include back when I was newb before BWchart even. And these are NOT my totals by all means, just out of my saved replays. (I only save the GGs from my opinion-so by default all games would be at least 7+minutes). I probably have close to 20,000 games played total that were not saved replays.
My overall averaging stats from all maps/replays: APM: 149, Game Time: 18:17, Games Played: 1636, Race: -Z:37% -P:32% -T:30%, Race Apm: Z:158, P:148, T:139
Some additional stats from saved replays on Bloodbath only from Bwchart: AVG Time - Games played (different version of bloodbath) 54:18 2 7:26 26 10:40 42 12:03 136 10:37 23 11:17 190 27:32 1 9:55 7 17:48 17 4:05 1 5:45 1 1:01:27 1 16:20 79 28:32 1 18:43 438 18:47 3 ____________ _307:495_______ Totals= 13:22:00 - 968 16
EDIT- I guess lings, ghosts and marines have different angle sizes or something because they fit differently through walls. The original 4 I posted may or may not leave a space for lings to run through. I'm posting some fixes below them.
I was fucking around with different kinds of walls and I found that you can fully wall (block small units) at every base in at least 1 way. I also found about 1-5 different ways to wall normally (just blocking zeals/workers & larger) at each spot too.
Here are the complete blocks/walls (using acad): + Show Spoiler +
11 TL:
5 (BR):
1 (TR):
7 (BL): 1
2
OK FIXED WALLS HERE:
Walls lings & Marines + out, but as you see a ghost can fit through in that spot
Ok, this spot is weird. Ghost can fit there although nothing else can and he can't fit where the ling is but nothing else can. But the unusual thing about where the ling is, is that u can't just click move behind the wall you have to kinda guide him through the spot. It's realyl strange, try it to see what I mean.
This wall is perfect. No lings & ghosts + can fit through anywhere.
Bottom Left Is totally screwy, I can't get a wall to work right there. Gave up trying to find a perfect one. Here is the original one I found with a red X where a ling can fit. Ghosts & Marines + can't fit through anywhere though.
Anyone know of a better way to place the minerals so that they are all evenly cannon-able requiring the same amount of structures without fucking up the mineral symmetry too much? Also without allowing the ability to place more than 1 depot sized building behind/in minerals.
I was also kind of wondering what you guys think the best time to start this strat is? I normally send a probe out on 6 to scout and make the structures and continue probes as normal. Is it best to throw down 1 pylon run around with the probe and then throw down the forge and other pylon at the same time (or for the easier spots wait until i can do 350 and throw them both down at once)? Or is it best to do it as i get the money? When is the best time to start throwing the buildings down too? Should I cut probes?
eh i hope that post is really quite old, most, not all the MUs you described on BB are pretty basic "lower level" play. ZvP/PvZ cannon builds into tech have been more effective for me and on the zerg side 12 pooling into a mass sunken style with power hatch to stop mass zealot is very effective. you can get 4 hatches up then just crush him with lings. the only imbalanced MU is ZvT. basically impossible against a competent terran. this is lnept btw from broodwarmaps.net, we played a couple times a while ago
I used shitty music in these videos because its funny to me. I am aware my micro and decision making is sub par for some of these but that just puts an emphasis on the fact that these defenses work.
PS- I have some blooper videos if you guys wanna see those too. Failed 9raxes (failed 4pool vs 9rax, lol) and failed 10gate.
On January 12 2009 08:46 CharlieMurphy wrote: I wish there was a program to filter reps by map.
You can do this using bwchart. Just click the section 'replay browser' then click the little 'map' tab to sort the reps by map. Then you can highlight the reps you want, right click on them then it should show a little menu that includes 'move to folder.'
Do you want to play sometime? I host a lot of 1v1 bb on west but everyone either sucks really bad or is bad mannered whether they win or lose lol.
There are a few hundred in there, Some of them are probably trash or vs computers. Even the ones that are vs actual players, not all of them will be good. But they may still be educational on build orders and stuff.
i took the liberty of elaborating the liquipedia blood bath page. no strategy stuff yet, since that is harder to state things which arent opinion based. but this page could be a nice place to keep blood bath knowledge
I should update my Zerg section, I've been playing BB a lot again lately. And I have pretty much figured out ZvZ and have some improved ZvP / ZvT builds.
I'll do it tomorrow.
PS- I think I'm gonna start playing on East, Been playing on East and have been owning harder that west (granted I don't know any good players on east yet) but I got a 85-95% win ratio on bb so far after like 30-40 obs games. Where's all the east channels/players?
LOL wow charlie calling me a hacker? I had to create an account on here just to say you are such a sore loser, calling people hackers just because they are better than you...you know your good when you google your starcraft screen name and find out that people have been talking about you.
Hey admins sorry to bump this thread again, but I was temp banned for bumping this thread without a good reason 2 years ago, but I have a good reason now. I can't post in strategy topics even though I was just temp banned. Can I please be forgiven and be able to post in strategy topics again.
Hey guys, in light of Remastered coming soon I downloaded the new sc 1.18 etc. Ive been playing on USWEST (very low users) and I've been playing bloodbath again. The quality of opponents is pretty bad, even though I haven't touched the game in years. Gone like 19-1.
Anyone wanna play some BB? Anyone got any of my old reps? I would like to do some commentary on them and/or stream some BB games.
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