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There has been numerous revolutionaries throughout the years. I wanted to measure the impact of various player's trademark contributions to their race. I will try to pinpoint the time a revolutionary player first showcased their trademark contribution towards the race in an important televised match.
The games that will be selected must have been played on highly visible stages, and may not be the actual first games to display a new method of approaching the game. However, since I am measuring games that were key in popularizing the spread of a meta-game shift, the actual semantics of the beginnings of the evolution of the meta-game will not be discussed in the particular blog.
I will attempt to measure the overall impact it had towards the race by trying to see if the win rate of the match-up in discussion changed much by comparing the win rates of the match-up one year leading up to that match, and one year after that match. The records of the player in question will be removed, because I wanted to check how other players were influenced by their meta-game advancements.
This will not be an accurate portrayal of the exact impact of each meta-game advancements since win rates are heavily influenced by the map pool, the form of various players in the scene, and numerous other factors that goes beyond mere meta-game advancements. Some of the most celebrated meta-game advancements may not appear on the list if it did not result in immediate improvements in results due to a multitude of other factors such as the map pool.
Further more, since I am unable to pinpoint the key games that represent the start of every major meta-game advancements in history, this list will be incredibly volatile and subject to change at any given moment.
With that being said, here we go with the list:
1) iloveoov/BeSt's T1 expansion in the protoss-versus-terran match-up
![[image loading]](http://res.heraldm.com/content/image/2013/07/26/20130726000820_0.jpg)
First used by Bisu after iloveoov recommended him the build, and later modified and optimized by BeSt, T1 expansion allowed to keep up with the terran players in terms of economy in the era where one barrack expansions were becoming more and more frequent.
Although Bisu was the first one to use it, since BeSt optimized the build to take down players such as Flash, I'll erase BeSt's records instead of Bisu's. BeSt was the first to truly optimize the one gateway expansion build, but since BeSt mentioned that he was heavily influenced by iloveoov's recommended build order, I'll pin point Bisu's game as the starting point of the T1 expansion,
Personally speaking, I believe the lack of games towards the end of professional Brood War (the lack of overall number of games allow it to be influenced more by the performance of a select few players such as JangBi), and the generally protoss friendly map pools in the protoss-versus-terran match-up may have played more of a role in raising the win rate than the build optimization itself.
+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss-versus-terran win rate excluding BeSt's records (2010/05/10~ 2011/05/10): 50.11%
Protoss-versus-terran win rate excluding BeSt's records (2011/05/11~ 2012/05/11): 58.15%
BeSt's immediate impact on the match-up: 8.04 percentage points
2) iloveoov's one barrack expansion in the terran-versus-zerg match-up
![[image loading]](http://contents.dt.co.kr/images/200911/2009110302019971733006.jpg)
Before 2005, fast expansion from terran players in the terran-versus-zerg match-up was not considered a standard build. However, by 2005, the strategy was so common that Midas said in a group selection ceremony that preparing for zergs was easy due to the viability of early expansion builds, something that was nowhere near a common knowledge before 2005.
iloveoov is often credited for bringing forth the popularity of early expansions versus zergs, and there are numerous examples of iloveoov trying the build out earlier on. However, I personally will pin-point iloveoov's first match versus July in the quarter-finals of YATGK MSL as the first time iloveoov tried the build out in a really important match.
+ Show Spoiler +
Terran-versus-zerg win rate excluding iloveoov's records (2003/12/22 ~ 2004/12/22): 50.85%
Terran-versus-zerg win rate excluding iloveoov's records (2004/12/23 ~ 2005/12/23): 57.92%
iloveoov's immediate impact on the match-up: 7.07 percentage points
3) Bisu's corsair heavy rendition of forge expansion in the protoss-versus-zerg match-up
![[image loading]](http://file2.nocutnews.co.kr/newsroom/image/2007/03/03202341228_61000080.jpg)
Before 2007, corsairs were not considered to be a must have unit in the protoss-versus-zerg match-up. Bisu brought life back to the forge expansion build by dictating the early pace of the game with corsairs, and made the transition into ground troops much more viable than any previous renditions of forge expansions.
+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss-versus-zerg win rate excluding Bisu's records (2006/03/02 ~ 2007/03/02): 39.41%
Protoss-versus-zerg win rate excluding Bisu's records (2007/03/03 ~ 2008/03/03): 46.28%
Bisu's immediate impact on the match-up: 6.87 percentage points
4) GGPlay's efficient building placements in the zerg-versus-protoss match-up
![[image loading]](http://file2.nocutnews.co.kr/newsroom/image/2007/07/13203751827_60400060.jpg)
GGPlay started to optimize building placements to nullify the threat of speed zealots on maps such as Destination and Sin Chupung-Ryeong to minimize the sunken colony count whilst expanding. His research left on impact on his teammate ZerO, who started to use this technique to take early four bases on maps such as Fighting Spirit with frightening efficiency, which allowed the zerg race to pull ahead in the zerg-versus-protoss once more.
Although quite rudimentary in nature, GGPlay's building placement efforts paved way for the zerg race to explore greedier build order options against the protoss race.
+ Show Spoiler +
Zerg-versus protoss win rate excluding GGPlay's records (2007/12/01~ 2008/12/01): 52.08%
Zerg-versus protoss win rate excluding GGPlay's records (2008/12/02~ 2009/12/02): 58.54%
GGPlay's immediate impact on the match-up: 6.46 percentage points
5) Shark's mutalisk stacking in the zerg-versus-terran match-up
![[image loading]](http://archivenew.vop.co.kr/images/3264dab5a60b54204e686c661378fc46/2011-06/20082521_4678468576.gif)
July had already been showcasig the power of stacked mutalisks, but did so by using extremely inefficient ways of keeping them somewhat stacked by manually keeping them stacked with mineral patches and constant right-clicking. Shark gave perhaps the greatest gift to the zerg race by discovering the trick to keep the mutalisks stacked permanently.
It was difficult to pin-point the moment, but this match is one of the more famous cases of July utilizing his new bag of tricks against the totally unprepared Hwasin, a player known for his terran-versus-zerg prowess.
+ Show Spoiler +
Zerg-versus-terran win rate excluding Shark's records (2005/08/13 ~ 2006/08/13): 40.71%
Zerg-versus-terran win rate excluding Shark's records (2006/08/14 ~ 2007/08/14): 43.36%
Shark's immediate impact on the match-up: 2.65 percentage points
6) FanTaSy's late-mech transition in the terran-versus-zerg match-up
![[image loading]](http://pds12.egloos.com/pds/200810/17/17/f0067817_48f89537a24f3.jpg)
With the game-changing micro-management discovery from Shark, and the three hatchery meta-game revolution from sAviOr, the zerg race were able to master keeping the terran players at bay until the power of zerg hive tech kicked in. iloveoov's contributions towards the terran race had all but been nullified by the advancements from the zerg camp.
FanTaSy swung the match-up back in terran's favour by unleashing the power of mech-units by switching unit composition after pressuring the enemy with bionic troops. This strategy pretty much spelled the death of SK Terran as a frequently used play-style in the terran-versus-zerg match-up.
+ Show Spoiler +
Terran-versus-zerg win rate excluding FanTaSy's records (2009/01/09 ~ 2010/01/09): 50.08%
Terran-versus-zerg win rate excluding FanTaSy's records (2010/01/10 ~ 2011/01/10): 52.57%
FanTaSy's immediate impact on the match-up: 2.49 percentage points
List of meta-game advancements that did not make the cut after being examined:
sAviOr's three hatchery mutalisks into lurkers into defiler play in ZvT, PuSan's arbiter usage in PvT, fOrGG's early upgrade five barracks build order in TvZ, Nal_rA forge expansion in PvZ, GGPlay/Jaedong's five hatchery build order in ZvP, UpMaGiC/Really's one barrack expansion build order in TvP, ClouD's FD Terran build in TvP.
There are a whole bunch of meta-game advancements I could be missing out on, but the timing of these advancements have to coincide with a huge resurgence in power for a certain race in a specific match-up that could be influenced by a whole lot of factors such as the individual form of certain players, map pools, luck of the bracket draw, and the way various professional teams utilized their players.
 
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definitely july's muta stacking and bisus sair opener... probably moreso bisu's opening. you could probably argue that some of the dark archon builds were very influential early on too in pvz, those were so sick
edit~ that july zvt is fucking HILARIOUS to watch, the casters are so surprised haha
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I really like how you used numbers to quantify and rank the advancements against each other.
I don't exactly understand what you mean by oov/BeSt's T1 expansion? Wasn't it always P expanding before T? And triple-nexus vs. 1-rax expand was a thing, IIRC before 2010
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United States2186 Posts
Great post!
Do you know when forgg first starting using the +1 5 rax build? I don't have a concrete understanding of its evolution. From memory, in late 2007 Terrans like FBH were using mass barracks, almost allin builds (7 rax, maybe 5 rax?) against 3 hatch muta, but these faded away due to 2 hatch muta(?) until 2011 when +1 5 rax was combined with Flash's aggressive bio moveouts right when mutas appeared. iloveoov at least was doing a rax expo ebay TvZ (4 rax?) in 2007 as well.
I do wonder if the evolution of +1 5 rax was similar to 3 hatch spire ZvP, where it came out early, but took much longer to be adapted and was temporarily forgotten. Savior used the 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra ZvP in some lower prestige games in early 2008 (sadly vod got lost?) Jaedong used it shortly after, won with it, then either forgot or didn't like it, and then didn't use it again until the last months of 2008, when it exploded in popularity from his big wins and dominated the scene for well over a year. The timeline you have with the GGPlay simcity innovation is roughly on par with this, and seems more of a subset evolution against Protoss attempts to beat the build with timing attacks.
I'm not sure though that win rate is a good way to track this - in addition to the points you noted, other innovations can happen simultaneously. Quite possibly the biggest innovation in PvT history was the pylon wall (by Reach or Nal rA in 2003?). But this coincided with the meteoric Terran advances by Nada and iloveoov (siege expo, fast 3rds, upgrade prioritization, harass efficiency), which almost certainly dented its realized impact in win rate: What the winrate we have hides is that without pylon walls, the TvP winrate would have been even better.
Savior's 3 hatch muta into 2 lurker 3rd base into nydus+defiler into happened to coincide with iloveoov and others making a series of sweeping TvZ reforms - Savior had to modify his strategy multiple times in counter adaption during 2005-2006 when other Zergs were getting wrecked. Other Zergs didn't effectively catch up until 2007, where it became the standard. But (mid-late) 2007 is also the year that Crazy Zerg was invented, as well as 2 hatch aggressive muta builds. The combination of these three shifted the ZvT winrate to the highest ever I believe, when in 2006 only 3 Zergs besides Savior had a positive ZvT winrate. But how do you trace the impact of just one of these without manually watching every vod? I have no idea.
For another example, the refinement of arbiter play in 2005-2006 happened to coincide with Midas's extremely important FD, as well as the SKT1 Terrans refining 2 base timing attacks and iloveoov systematizing 4 fact into 3rd builds. I should think that FD, considering its ease of use, would have made a large 6 month~ impact even still, but maybe not?
Other massive shifts may also not be significantly reflected in winrates due to alternatives. Flash's aggressive bio moveouts and 3rd denials in TvZ made 2 hatch muta openings essentially obsolete in late 2009, but Zergs could simply switch back to 3 hatch and enjoy a chance at parity, only losing out on the early wins possible with 2 hatch muta.
I'd be extremely curious to see the impact Boxer made back in 2001 but I doubt full records of that still exist? So far as I can think of, other major innovations you didn't list would be Savior systematizing standard ZvP play with proper lurker/muta/drone timings in late 2005, which led to PvZ being so disastrous in 2006. In addition, Nada's 2 rax CC TvZ back in late 2002/2003 should have theoretically been a big innovation. However, I don't know when this would have taken effect among the other Terrans, since many were still enamored by Boxer's 1 base openings. Lastly, Flash refining iloveoov's fact cc armory academy cc with his anti-carrier micro in 2008.
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On December 10 2017 05:56 bITt.mAN wrote:
I really like how you used numbers to quantify and rank the advancements against each other.
I don't exactly understand what you mean by oov/BeSt's T1 expansion? Wasn't it always P expanding before T? And triple-nexus vs. 1-rax expand was a thing, IIRC before 2010
It basically minimized the dragoon count with ruthless optimization
+ Show Spoiler +
This is Bisu playing versus Flash who did one barracks expansion only a couple of weeks before iloveoov recommended him the initial interpretation of the T1 build. You can notice the difference, after he was recommended the T1 build this is what Bisu did differently to optimize his economy:
1) Bisu upgrades his range before making any units.
2) He then takes a probe away from the vespene geyser to maximize his mineral intake.
3) He cuts probes at 19 supply.
4) Build two gateways
5) Make a nexus before making any units.
6) Make two dragoons from two gateways, and return to mining from the vespene geyser with three probes.
This allowed him to be economically ahead, and despite BoGus going for an aggressive one base strategy, Bisu managed to stop it because apart from situations where he was against extremely early strategies like BBS, this build allowed him to be greedy and safe.
BeSt optimized the build even more, taking concepts like early dragoon range, skimping on units, and maximizing mineral intake by temporarily mining from the vespene geyser with two probes. I'm not going go into details for his own modifications, but he maximized stability even more by expanding off a single dragoon, and used this build to take down Flash in their ProLeague match.
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Nice post! This a great read and very educational for new user and old.
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On December 10 2017 09:42 Ver wrote:Great post! Do you know when forgg first starting using the +1 5 rax build? I don't have a concrete understanding of its evolution. From memory, in late 2007 Terrans like FBH were using mass barracks, almost allin builds (7 rax, maybe 5 rax?) against 3 hatch muta, but these faded away due to 2 hatch muta(?) until 2011 when +1 5 rax was combined with Flash's aggressive bio moveouts right when mutas appeared. iloveoov at least was doing a rax expo ebay TvZ (4 rax?) in 2007 as well. I do wonder if the evolution of +1 5 rax was similar to 3 hatch spire ZvP, where it came out early, but took much longer to be adapted and was temporarily forgotten. Savior used the 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra ZvP in some lower prestige games in early 2008 (sadly vod got lost?) Jaedong used it shortly after, won with it, then either forgot or didn't like it, and then didn't use it again until the last months of 2008, when it exploded in popularity from his big wins and dominated the scene for well over a year. The timeline you have with the GGPlay simcity innovation is roughly on par with this, and seems more of a subset evolution against Protoss attempts to beat the build with timing attacks. I'm not sure though that win rate is a good way to track this - in addition to the points you noted, other innovations can happen simultaneously. Quite possibly the biggest innovation in PvT history was the pylon wall (by Reach or Nal rA in 2003?). But this coincided with the meteoric Terran advances by Nada and iloveoov (siege expo, fast 3rds, upgrade prioritization, harass efficiency), which almost certainly dented its realized impact in win rate: What the winrate we have hides is that without pylon walls, the TvP winrate would have been even better. Savior's 3 hatch muta into 2 lurker 3rd base into nydus+defiler into happened to coincide with iloveoov and others making a series of sweeping TvZ reforms - Savior had to modify his strategy multiple times in counter adaption during 2005-2006 when other Zergs were getting wrecked. Other Zergs didn't effectively catch up until 2007, where it became the standard. But (mid-late) 2007 is also the year that Crazy Zerg was invented, as well as 2 hatch aggressive muta builds. The combination of these three shifted the ZvT winrate to the highest ever I believe, when in 2006 only 3 Zergs besides Savior had a positive ZvT winrate. But how do you trace the impact of just one of these without manually watching every vod? I have no idea. For another example, the refinement of arbiter play in 2005-2006 happened to coincide with Midas's extremely important FD, as well as the SKT1 Terrans refining 2 base timing attacks and iloveoov systematizing 4 fact into 3rd builds. I should think that FD, considering its ease of use, would have made a large 6 month~ impact even still, but maybe not? Other massive shifts may also not be significantly reflected in winrates due to alternatives. Flash's aggressive bio moveouts and 3rd denials in TvZ made 2 hatch muta openings essentially obsolete in late 2009, but Zergs could simply switch back to 3 hatch and enjoy a chance at parity, only losing out on the early wins possible with 2 hatch muta. I'd be extremely curious to see the impact Boxer made back in 2001 but I doubt full records of that still exist? So far as I can think of, other major innovations you didn't list would be Savior systematizing standard ZvP play with proper lurker/muta/drone timings in late 2005, which led to PvZ being so disastrous in 2006. In addition, Nada's 2 rax CC TvZ back in late 2002/2003 should have theoretically been a big innovation. However, I don't know when this would have taken effect among the other Terrans, since many were still enamored by Boxer's 1 base openings. Lastly, Flash refining iloveoov's fact cc armory academy cc with his anti-carrier micro in 2008.
fOrGG tried it first against Jaedong in early 2010, and from the commentary, you can notice the surprise, where they treat it more as an extreme strategy rather than a legitimate standard opening.
+ Show Spoiler +
I absolutely agree that the impact of the meta-game advancements cannot be measured accurately, but this was an attempt to do so nonetheless. There are so many factors at play that one single advancement no matter how significant a single advancement is, it cannot single handily raise the win rate of a match-up noticeably if there are influential counter-acting measures at play.
For example, it is extremely difficult to measure the immediate impact of sAviOr's advancements, because his meta-game contributions were rather gradual in nature, and by the time it was truly completed by the ease of mutalisk stacking micro-management, other more mutalisk micro-management focused builds became more popular spearheaded by the likes of YellOw[ArnC] and Jaedong.
sAviOr was already doing three hatchery build orders to secure third gas, and being more reliant on defilers than most zergs before 2005, but strategically speaking, iloveoov was way more impactful with his one barrack expansions, which was not well dealt with by the zerg race as a whole, especially in 2005. In my opinion, as ingenious as sAviOr's manual for the zerg-versus-terran match-up was, iloveoov created a manual for his race that was far easier to implement for the average terran professional, while sAviOr's vision for the match-up was truly made accessible for the average zerg player after the spread of the mutalisk stacking micro-management trick. iloveoov was already working on various versions of fast expansion versus the zerg race, and while sAviOr provided the best strategical answer to it, it wasn't an easy to execute strategical counter, and needed the development of the early mutalisk pressure to truly blossom.
http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100202907950
As for FD Terran, I think ClouD implemented it on Luna (a map that did not allow efficient wall-ins), mimicking the Gundam push but actually taking a fast expansion. But it did not actually raise the terran-versus-protoss win rate at all, as powerful as the strategy was. I think FD Terran was invented as an answer to the more difficult maps designed to nullify the strength of the dominant terran players of the era, but it was merely an answer, just like sAviOr's advancements stopped at being an answer to iloveoov's meta-game advancements, and needed the mutalisk micro-mamagement advancements to truly overcome it.
I'm not going to try to pinpoint meta-game advancements for really ancient eras, because I don't want to misrepresent those eras with my lack of knowledge. For these meta-game shifts, I want to see a well defined, consistent trend that stuck around for the benefit of the race as a whole, not one off strategies, and it's quite hard to check for a consistent trends from the more ancient eras due to the lack of footage. I don't want to see a single forge expansion protoss-versus-zerg game from 1999, and pretend that particular game had any lasting impact as a meta-game shift.
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only mentions flash once in an entire 2000 word treatise on meta
bias much?
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On December 10 2017 15:06 Shady Sands wrote:
only mentions flash once in an entire 2000 word treatise on meta
bias much?
Two of the most important meta-game shifts that shaped modern day terran-versus-zerg in my eyes:
1) fOrGG's fast engineering bay into five barracks to counter three hatchery mutalisks circa early 2010.
2) FanTaSy's late-mech switch to counter hive zerg circa early 2010.
Two of the most important meta-game shifts that shaped modern day terran-versus-protoss in my eyes:
1) Midas' incorporation of early game investment into upgrades for the long haul, rather than relying on timing rushes circa early 2005.
2) Really's one barrack expansion build circa early 2010.
Only one of these trends were locked in for the list, not because I don't value their worth, but because of the numbers. Like I mentioned before, the numbers can be, and often are very misleading, but it is a fun exercise for me nonetheless.
Flash's anti-carrier build was a specific counter for a niche play-style that lasted for a short duration, and had no lasting impact on the game in terms of meta-game evolution or win rate shifts in the match-up.
Flash did have excellent bionic movement to pressure the zerg player as the mutalisks popped out, but other terran players of his era such as Sheis, Canata, and Iris were doing similar maneuvers to exert pressure instead of camping inside their base, some of them displaying similar concepts before Flash even made his professional debut, so I personally can't point a game from Flash that captures Flash doing something no other terrans were doing at the time. Further more, it didn't really influence the win rate of the match-up by a significant amount, which is the only criteria for inclusion as of now.
Being pivotal in the advancement of a race and being good at the game are entirely different beasts. PuSan is one of the most influential pioneers from the protoss race, but it is important to differentiate his impact as a pioneer and his actual worth as a competitor. Same goes for Flash. Flash's success at the competitive level does not automatically make him a lock-in material for the best innovator, although if you are willing to show me specific, well-defined examples of Flash setting a trend that drastically changed the balance of a particular match-up, I'd be more than happy to edit my list.
Thanks for stopping by with your tremendous enthusiasm and zeal. It's all you have, but as long as you remain civil, I'm more than willing to have further discussions regarding Flash.
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The problem with your blog is that you think random builds between b-teamers in proleague is what shifts the meta-game, and that the first player who shows that build is the "owner" of the meta-game shift for that build.
That's wrong. The player who owns the meta-game shift of that build is the one who uses it to win in the highest-profile matches - PL finals, MSL/OSL finals. Why? Because then your build becomes scary. Before then, it's just cute shit.
In that regard, only Flash has shifted the meta-game, both because he stands head and shoulders above all other Terrans in terms of numbers of finals appearances between 2009 and 2012.
Second, you truncate your builds way too early. A 5rax +1 into hanbang is not the same as a 5rax +1 into 3 fac vult into split map (which is the real TvZ meta that Flash gifted the world).
fOrGG's fast engineering bay into five barracks to counter three hatchery mutalisks circa early 2010
Wrong, all ForGG did was create a timing attack that didn't have a transition out. Flash was the first and only player who showed transitions out of 5rax, which is what made it a difficult build to deal with.
2) Really's one barrack expansion build circa early 2010.
Flash beat Movie with 1rax FE TvP in the OSL finals January 2010. Even if Really (a b-teamer) played a game 10 days before that with the build against another random b-teamer, are you really going to credit him with the build order?
FanTaSy's late-mech switch to counter hive zerg circa early 2010.
Sure... Flash went late-mech to counter Clam 9 days later, you're going to say it's all Fantasy?
Midas' incorporation of early game investment into upgrades for the long haul, rather than relying on timing rushes circa early 2005.
Wrong, Midas never had major success in TvP with early armories and you can't claim that every player with early armory was doing the "Midas build". That's as absurd as saying all variations of 1rax FE in TvZ is doing the "Oov build".
Thanks for stopping by with your tremendous enthusiasm and zeal. It's all you have
lol, I've got much more, but someone who does nothing but post multiple 3000-word OPs talking about matches 12 years ago to diminish a player he dislikes doesn't deserve it. (And I just read through your post history, holy shit, you really enjoy passive aggressively trying to diminish Flash every turn you can, right?)
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Just for historical interest, here's UpMaGiC doing 1 rax expand in TvP a full year before his teammate Really:
+ Show Spoiler +
A very cursory and unenthusiastic investigation didn't turn up any antecedents to this game, nor repeats until a year later.
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On December 10 2017 18:30 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Just for historical interest, here's UpMaGiC doing 1 rax expand in TvP a full year before his teammate Really: + Show Spoiler +A very cursory and unenthusiastic investigation didn't turn up any antecedents to this game, nor repeats until a year later.
Basically, Letmelose just cherry picks from random VODs and game records to try and diminish Flash. And he's not even that clean at it.
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On December 10 2017 17:25 Shady Sands wrote:
Sure... Flash went late-mech to counter Clam 9 days later, you're going to say it's all Fantasy?
If you count partial biomech, Fantasy went biomech switch counter against Jeadong in 2009 SPL FINAL with his tank banking. So he is STILL earier user. And oov can be considered even earlier user too. Also, many earier late games where terran used heavy tank tactic in late game can be credited too. Hell, FBH vs Savior can be called mech switch, as he had a 3 factories built at one point XD
The thing is, "true" mech switch was Fantasy vs Zero, not Flash vs Calm. It was Fantasy's game the first with intention to early infantry use and ditching it once the transition kick in to enter the lategame. Flash was building mnm's throu whole game in that semifinal against Calm, it was pretty standard (thou unusual with factory numbers) and was anywhere what can be called a switch. The mech switch is all about keeping early pressure by mnms and than switch entirely into mech units to counter standard zerg late game. What Flash did was late biomech with unusual heavy tank numbers and not a mech switch.
Also, FvC game lacks the critical by-the-book mech switch tactics that is characteristic for the metagame, like heavy use of spider mines to control the map and general use of tanks is less aggresive than in typical mech switch.
As you said: "bias much"? And you think someones cherrypicking...
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On December 10 2017 18:30 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Just for historical interest, here's UpMaGiC doing 1 rax expand in TvP a full year before his teammate Really: + Show Spoiler +A very cursory and unenthusiastic investigation didn't turn up any antecedents to this game, nor repeats until a year later.
Great find. I believe Flash talked on stream about Estro terrans developing the one barrack expansion build versus protoss, but I always thought it was Really that introduced it, but UpMaGiC would be the one to think outside of the box. I thought about giving the credit to Really anyhow, since UpMaGiC's attempt could have been a one-off strategy to catch opponents off-guard, rather than a trend setting breakthrough, but it seems UpMaGiC was once again experimenting with the one barrack expansion build in early 2010 once more just before his professional licence was revoked for match-fixing.
I personally would guess that Really may have been affected by UpMaGiC's unorthodox manner of approaching the game and incorporated into his own games by early 2010, but I guess there's no way of knowing for sure since neither of them will ever stream or divulge what went on within the Estro house back then.
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On December 10 2017 17:25 Shady Sands wrote:The problem with your blog is that you think random builds between b-teamers in proleague is what shifts the meta-game, and that the first player who shows that build is the "owner" of the meta-game shift for that build. That's wrong. The player who owns the meta-game shift of that build is the one who uses it to win in the highest-profile matches - PL finals, MSL/OSL finals. Why? Because then your build becomes scary. Before then, it's just cute shit. In that regard, only Flash has shifted the meta-game, both because he stands head and shoulders above all other Terrans in terms of numbers of finals appearances between 2009 and 2012. Second, you truncate your builds way too early. A 5rax +1 into hanbang is not the same as a 5rax +1 into 3 fac vult into split map (which is the real TvZ meta that Flash gifted the world). Show nested quote +fOrGG's fast engineering bay into five barracks to counter three hatchery mutalisks circa early 2010 Wrong, all ForGG did was create a timing attack that didn't have a transition out. Flash was the first and only player who showed transitions out of 5rax, which is what made it a difficult build to deal with. Flash beat Movie with 1rax FE TvP in the OSL finals January 2010. Even if Really (a b-teamer) played a game 10 days before that with the build against another random b-teamer, are you really going to credit him with the build order? Sure... Flash went late-mech to counter Clam 9 days later, you're going to say it's all Fantasy? Show nested quote +Midas' incorporation of early game investment into upgrades for the long haul, rather than relying on timing rushes circa early 2005. Wrong, Midas never had major success in TvP with early armories and you can't claim that every player with early armory was doing the "Midas build". That's as absurd as saying all variations of 1rax FE in TvZ is doing the "Oov build". Show nested quote +Thanks for stopping by with your tremendous enthusiasm and zeal. It's all you have lol, I've got much more, but someone who does nothing but post multiple 3000-word OPs talking about matches 12 years ago to diminish a player he dislikes doesn't deserve it. (And I just read through your post history, holy shit, you really enjoy passive aggressively trying to diminish Flash every turn you can, right?)
Thank you for your suggestions, and your idea to associate everything Flash ever used during his career as things that should be credited to him and him alone. While providing games that were played after the major discoveries that are often credited for changing the landscape of certain match-ups is indeed useless from my point of view, your dedication towards Flash has been duly noted.
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I remember Sea crediting Estro terrans (Upmagic, Really) for TvP 1 rax CC in an educational VOD which has been translated (can't find it right now). Also Really was probably the 2nd/3rd best TvPer and regular a-teamer (quite often picked for ace match) when he was doing 1 rax CC in early 2010.
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On December 10 2017 20:10 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2017 17:25 Shady Sands wrote:The problem with your blog is that you think random builds between b-teamers in proleague is what shifts the meta-game, and that the first player who shows that build is the "owner" of the meta-game shift for that build. That's wrong. The player who owns the meta-game shift of that build is the one who uses it to win in the highest-profile matches - PL finals, MSL/OSL finals. Why? Because then your build becomes scary. Before then, it's just cute shit. In that regard, only Flash has shifted the meta-game, both because he stands head and shoulders above all other Terrans in terms of numbers of finals appearances between 2009 and 2012. Second, you truncate your builds way too early. A 5rax +1 into hanbang is not the same as a 5rax +1 into 3 fac vult into split map (which is the real TvZ meta that Flash gifted the world). fOrGG's fast engineering bay into five barracks to counter three hatchery mutalisks circa early 2010 Wrong, all ForGG did was create a timing attack that didn't have a transition out. Flash was the first and only player who showed transitions out of 5rax, which is what made it a difficult build to deal with. 2) Really's one barrack expansion build circa early 2010. Flash beat Movie with 1rax FE TvP in the OSL finals January 2010. Even if Really (a b-teamer) played a game 10 days before that with the build against another random b-teamer, are you really going to credit him with the build order? FanTaSy's late-mech switch to counter hive zerg circa early 2010. Sure... Flash went late-mech to counter Clam 9 days later, you're going to say it's all Fantasy? Midas' incorporation of early game investment into upgrades for the long haul, rather than relying on timing rushes circa early 2005. Wrong, Midas never had major success in TvP with early armories and you can't claim that every player with early armory was doing the "Midas build". That's as absurd as saying all variations of 1rax FE in TvZ is doing the "Oov build". Thanks for stopping by with your tremendous enthusiasm and zeal. It's all you have lol, I've got much more, but someone who does nothing but post multiple 3000-word OPs talking about matches 12 years ago to diminish a player he dislikes doesn't deserve it. (And I just read through your post history, holy shit, you really enjoy passive aggressively trying to diminish Flash every turn you can, right?) Thank you for your suggestions, and your idea to associate everything Flash ever used during his career as things that should be credited to him and him alone. While providing games that were played after the major discoveries that are often credited for changing the landscape of certain match-ups is indeed useless from my point of view, your dedication towards Flash has been duly noted.
I'm dissapointed that you didnt provided explanation where he is wrong. I would gladly saw him reaped apart, especialy when he uses double standards to defend his opinion about Flash 
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The problem with your blog is that you think random builds between b-teamers in proleague is what shifts the meta-game, and that the first player who shows that build is the "owner" of the meta-game shift for that build.
That's wrong. The player who owns the meta-game shift of that build is the one who uses it to win in the highest-profile matches - PL finals, MSL/OSL finals. Why? Because then your build becomes scary. Before then, it's just cute shit.
how does the above
Thank you for your suggestions, and your idea to associate everything Flash ever used during his career as things that should be credited to him and him alone.
equal that?
You're just salty because I've shown how artificial and useless your own metric is.
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On December 10 2017 19:43 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2017 17:25 Shady Sands wrote:
Sure... Flash went late-mech to counter Clam 9 days later, you're going to say it's all Fantasy?
If you count partial biomech, Fantasy went biomech switch counter against Jeadong in 2009 SPL FINAL with his tank banking. So he is STILL earier user. And oov can be considered even earlier user too. Also, many earier late games where terran used heavy tank tactic in late game can be credited too. Hell, FBH vs Savior can be called mech switch, as he had a 3 factories built at one point XD
If you say that, it makes Letmelose's earlier point meaningless. I'm willing to accept that =)
The thing is, "true" mech switch was Fantasy vs Zero, not Flash vs Calm. It was Fantasy's game the first with intention to early infantry use and ditching it once the transition kick in to enter the lategame. Flash was building mnm's throu whole game in that semifinal against Calm, it was pretty standard (thou unusual with factory numbers) and was anywhere what can be called a switch. The mech switch is all about keeping early pressure by mnms and than switch entirely into mech units to counter standard zerg late game. What Flash did was late biomech with unusual heavy tank numbers and not a mech switch.
Actually, the mech switch is all about doing a double expansion and adding factories while the Z is going from defiler/lurker/ling to ultra/ling
Also, FvC game lacks the critical by-the-book mech switch tactics that is characteristic for the metagame, like heavy use of spider mines to control the map and general use of tanks is less aggresive than in typical mech switch.
lawl, keep up the Flash hate bro, it'll get you places
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On December 11 2017 06:25 Shady Sands wrote:
Actually, the mech switch is all about doing a double expansion and adding factories while the Z is going from defiler/lurker/ling to ultra/ling
The build you are confusing with the late-mech strategy is known as the Neo SK Terran build in Korean communities, and is known for its heavy focus on siege tanks to combat the zerg in the late game. Players such as Leta were already implementing these builds in 2009, although Flash did pull the strategy off brilliantly against Calm in the semi-finals of EVER OGN StarLeague.
+ Show Spoiler +
Late-mech and Neo SK Terran builds may seem identical in your eyes, but have been distinguished by members of the Korean community for quite some time. You are welcome to suggest your own ideas, but the best way to put me in my place would be by contributing useful information that goes contrary to what I say, you have the latter down, now focus on the former.
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the best way to put me in my place would be by contributing useful information that goes contrary to what I say
Wrong, you've just proven you're full of bias, and what I will do is make sure every single post of yours with cherry-picked "stats" is followed by one of mine to make sure that all readers are aware of your bias.
It's a cost-efficient, time-efficient way to neutralize your attempts to diminish God.
Edit: You want to change my mind? Write a post that tells us all why Flash was able to completely dominate everyone from Dec 2009 to September 2010, and why he continues to rape face today.
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On December 10 2017 17:25 Shady Sands wrote:
only Flash has shifted the meta-game
And you really want to accuse other people of bias?!
There is maybe an argument that the heavier vulture usage that gets involved in the lategame TvZ mech switch is down to Flash. I remember back when BW was big, it was all about just putting factories in a corner of the map and banking tanks, and these days the transition is much more smooth and handled with mines. I don't know who to credit that to but Flash is certainly a primary example of pulling off the style and the one I think of specifically when it comes to that heavier vulture usage.
Is this a major metagame shift that defined a matchup? I'd say no, and giving Fantasy credit for the mech switch in general is still fine.
The one who is coming across biased here is you, well and truly.
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On December 11 2017 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +the best way to put me in my place would be by contributing useful information that goes contrary to what I say Wrong, you've just proven you're full of bias, and what I will do is make sure every single post of yours with cherry-picked "stats" is followed by one of mine to make sure that all readers are aware of your bias. It's a cost-efficient, time-efficient way to neutralize your attempts to diminish God. Edit: You want to change my mind? Write a post that tells us all why Flash was able to completely dominate everyone from Dec 2009 to September 2010, and why he continues to rape face today.
I'm sure that in your mind, confusing clearly distinguishable strategies, and insisting on people to acknowledge games from Flash that were played later than the games that I've mentioned are the best ways of exposing my extreme bias against Flash.
This blog has been visited by several people who were kind of enough to shed information on stuff I didn't know, and pertinent information were edited in to my original post. The same cannot be said for you, although you do hammer in the same useless points over and over again. I appreciate the effort you've put in, but quite clearly having substance in your posts is not your forte.
If only you could match your passion with actual information, then you wouldn't need me to write essays regarding Flash.
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Also Letmelose, I really love all the thoughtful posts you contribute to these boards. I'm especially so glad that someone can see the amazing qualities of Stork and Jangbi and spell it out all so clearly, though that was somewhere else and not really relevant to this thread. Anyways, thanks for the blog!
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Great blog, but keep in mind that the "immediate impact on the MU" is not measured in percent but rather percentage points (pp). It would please my eyes a great deal if you changed that part :D
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On December 11 2017 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +the best way to put me in my place would be by contributing useful information that goes contrary to what I say Wrong, you've just proven you're full of bias, and what I will do is make sure every single post of yours with cherry-picked "stats" is followed by one of mine to make sure that all readers are aware of your bias.
He wasnt proven anything, but please, continue. Making a hypocrite from yourself at every post with bias accusation is a pleasant bonus
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Norway28675 Posts
Also echoing the sentiment that I love your posts letmelose, they are actually insightful as opposed to merely opinionated.
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lol all the Flash haters coming out of the woodwork as usual.
He wasnt proven anything
lol yes he has
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Norway28675 Posts
I think Flash is literally the greatest gamer of all time regardless of game. It does not mean he's the only one to influence the meta-game, wtf.
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Don't know what you're on about Shady Sands... I'm the opposite of Flash hater and appreciate Letmelose's posts.
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On December 10 2017 17:25 Shady Sands wrote:
Flash went late-mech to counter Clam 9 days later, you're going to say it's all Fantasy?
Actually It's a myth that late-mech is needed to counter Clam. In fact all you need is bio, aka your hands.
The following is a clear counter to Clam that completely shifted the HvC (Human vs Clam) metagame:
1. Wait until the tide rolls out.
2. Dig up Clam from the sand.
3. Cook and eat. GG.
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EPT
