• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:24
CEST 10:24
KST 17:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates8GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Cheeseadelphia 2025 - Open Bracket LAN!
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion I made an ASL quiz
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 25733 users

My Starbow Story (part 1 - the story)

Blogs > Xiphias
Post a Reply
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-11 19:09:08
December 02 2017 15:47 GMT
#1
Hello! I'm "Xiphias" and I have worked as a developer of the Starbow mod for at least 4 years.The mod is not doing so hot these days and not much is happening so I though I'd share my story of its up's and down's and what I have learned from my experience with Starbow. I am not a native English speaker so some odd sentence structures may occur.

Before Starbow

I was born in 1985 and I was 13 when Starcraft 1 came out in 1998. I got a copy right after BW was released and played both of the campaigns with joy. I slowly started to play with others and I quickly became the best Starcraft player that I knew of in my tight circle of few friends. I realized later that I was not great at all, just better then them.

When I got older and started to study maths at university. I also found ICCUP and got some serious improvement. I made C- twice and was quite happy with that. This was also around the time SC2 came out. I was very hyped up for it but after playing it some I found that I enjoyed the goofy 3v3's and 4v4's (as well as doing funday Monday challenges) much more than the competitive 1v1 gameplay. I felt that BW had something that SC2 missed. Don't get me wrong. I did NOT miss having to send every single worker to mine minerals. Nor did I miss having to click every single building to macro, but there was still something that I felt BW had that SC2 lacked, but I had a hard time putting my finger on it.

I want to note that along side everything that happened later on I had 3 children, finished my master's degree and got a full-time job as a high school teacher. So I would gradually have less and less time off to work on Starbow.

Finding Starbow

I think I still remember actually finding Starbow. There was a thread on tl.net which analyzed the pathing of BW vs the pathing of SC2. It used Starbow as an example of an alternate pathing possible in the SC2 engine. At this time, however, Starbow's pathing was not that different from SC2's pathing. More on that later. I found the (now ancient) original Starbow development thread on the "custom maps" section (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow First post looks a lot different now than it did then) and quickly tried out the mod. I fell in love. I felt it was much closer to what I wanted SC2 to be. I quickly started playing it more, leaving regular SC2 aside completely and participated frequently in the development discussions.

Tournaments and PR

"Kabel" is the original creator of Starbow. He is brilliant, but he's not that keen on handling much else than the actual development. I wanted the mod to grow badly. We had about 20 people who were interested in playing at very different skill levels so it was difficult to find games and try out different strategies. I tried to organize a couple of very low-key tournaments with little to no prize pool and learned quite a lot from that. I also wanted to play in Starbow tournaments and played in the first I organized, realizing later that that was probably not the right thing to do.

I became known with another player named "decemeberscalm" at this time, although I cannot pinpoint exactly when it happened. He, like Kabel was more interested in game design than becoming a great gamer and we played a lot and became good friends. He would later learn the SC2 editor better than almost anyone else I know. It was around this time that Totalbuisciut dropped a message in our dev forum that he liked the mod and wanted to do something with it. We were super hyped, but did not really know what to expect.

TB hype and Kabel's retirement

On January 10th 2014, Totalbiscuit uploaded a youtube video of two axiom Sc2 players playing Starbow vs each other. It changed my life forever and sent me down a path I was not ready for. This happened to be in the HotS stale meta where most SC2 players wanted something new and fresh. Kabel did not have time to handle all the request he got and ask if I could be the "PR guy" of Starbow. Me, wanting nothing more than to spread the mod far and wide, quickly accepted and overnight, I was skype contact with people from twitch, Razer, ESL and other e-sport organizers. I later got Tasteless, Artosis, Day9, Husky, Destiny, People from blizzard and TotalBiscuit on the list. I was a bit overwhelmed.

We quickly discovered that the Starbow chat in-game that we had been using could only hold 50 (or 100, don't remember) people and we needed to make a group and a second chat. Reddit exploded and many wanted Starbow to be more than it actually was.

It's important to remember that we were not ready for this AT ALL. The mod was far from complete, we did not have any social platform in which to communicate effectively with the players, and nothing close of a ladder system to find opponents. We were incredibly hyped and happy of what had happened, but with had an enormous task ahead of us. At the same time, Kabel had been contemplating on leaving Starbow development. He LOVED trying out general concepts and ideas, but he was not that keen on balancing specific units and polishing games. Suddenly we could not make any huge changes and balance became #1 priority as many of the units in the game were not balanced well at all.

Kabel left the mod shortly after the hype began and I proposed that we made a small dev group of about 4-5 seasoned and passionate Starbow players. The first group consisted of myself, Decemberscalm, SolidSMD, Kalevi and Franscar. At the same time, some person I don't remember the name of made a Starbow ladder I think was called "Starbow Arena". At this point I had already planned to get a group together to make "Starbowmod.com" which was suppose to be a community hub with an integrated ladder system. I remember feeling offended that someone made a Starbow ladder without talking to us first. We quickly asked him to shut it down as we were making a ladder ourselves and it's something I regret to this day. We should have just collaborated with him as he was able to do something in 1-2 weeks that took us almost 2 months.

ESL contacted us and wanted to implement Starbow into a new site they were working on. We considered their offer but ended up deciding to make it community based and not company based. Looking back, that was 100% the correct decision as ESL would probably have backed out as soon as the hyped down, while we managed to keep the community alive for several following years.

I had asked on reddit if any programmers wanted to help make starbowmod.com. I had NEVER made a website in my life and I knew very little programming. Many showed interest in helping us and I thought "the more the merrier" without thinking about the differences of programming languages and the complexity of getting them all to collaborate. Luckily, some joined and told me how we should proceed and I was able to organize them hierarchically. I should have, in hindsight, only gotten 2-3 people who knew the same languages and were very passionate with different areas of expertise.

At the same time, several content creators were making Starbow content and Razer had a small tournament. ESL was running weekly tournaments and there were even Starbow showmatches on the "Ender's game" event. We talked to twitch and Razer and were able to get $1000 for a prize pool for a larger event. The Starbow Beta Invitational: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Starbow_Beta_Invitational_Tournament

We wanted to gather Starbow content on our Starbow stream: https://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow (since I was not doing anything else...). We were trying to get Totalbiscuit to co-cast with me and decemberscalm. Unfortunately he could only cast some of the final matches. I was looking forward to casting with him, but one of my kids got sick and was crying a lot (I was streaming from my PC). I had to mute my mic and just be the observer as dec and totalbuiscut casted the event. That's the first and last time we had money from a company to sponsor a Starbow event. We've had many since with varying prize pools, but that has all been from fan's donations.

Around the same time we got in contact with someone from the Artillery gaming company. We had no idea what it was at the time. We quickly learned that day9 was involved and working on a game with them. This is the game "Atlas" that was never completed. They were all very impressed with Starbow and wanted a meeting with all the current developers + Kabel. We gladly had a skype meeting with all of them and shared what we felt we had learned. They actually almost hired Kabel to their team after that meeting. Day9 said back then that he wanted to do some dailies on Starbow although it took quite some time before it actually happened. But he did deliver. Twice. Many Starbow players became alpha testers for Atlas, myself included although I had little time to play it.

After the initial hype

The hype was dying down and fewer were playing the game. But we had gathered a core of passionate players who found it for the initial hype which helped the game development move along much faster than it had before Jan 2014. We had regular tournaments driven by passionate community members and we were feeling ready to push the mod out of beta.

Artosis and Tasteless started streaming and playing the mod a lot. This was a tad controversial because they had basically never played SC2 on stream before so many accused them of only finding passion in Starbow and not in SC2. I hooked up with them on skype and Artosis and I planned to get some showmatches going on his stream. Sadly, the game was still quite imbalanced and many of the matches were bad because of some units being OP. They also talked of trying to get a Starbow event on GomTV, but that sadly never happened.

Day9 published his daily at this time, naming it appropriately for Starbow pushing out of beta. Our ladder system had been improved from an external program you had to download to a website integrated system. We experienced a new boom of players joining us. For 4-5 weeks we had over 2000 games played per week and we foolishly thought that Starbow was going to stay stable and slowly grow. But sadly, the players left after 5 weeks or so and we were down to the small core again.

The development group had changed over time as well, and it ended up with myself, Doa(ZzZ), Kireak and Kalevi. We kept on working on the mod although few were playing. We had many ideas we wanted to try out which were risky to do while many were playing it as it might scare people away. This kept on for a long time, always with the hope that there would be a small comeback. We had some periods with some coming back, but nothing too noteworthy.

The game is now in actually quite a good state, but we don't really have any players. I wish it was this good when the initial hype came about, but it would probably not be this good without it. Chicken and egg I suppose.

I've learned a lot of things about BW, SC2, RTS games in general, how to work with other organizations, how to bring passionate people together and I've made quite a lot of mistakes as well which I hope I've learned from. I want to post a longer rant about all I have learned as well some more in-depth about the development of the mod itself, but this is more than long enough for now.

I cannot tell this this story without mention a bunch of people who have helped tremendously along the way. So here they are in no particular order. I'm probably forgetting many who deserves mentioned.

Kalevi, Vehk, Finn, ArticHydra, SoaH, Veritas, Ahli, Franscar, HideR, Dirtybag, SolidSMD, ZzZ, Kireak, Theredbandit, Fatal, Danko, Decemberscalm, HirO, BorN.


****
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 15:54:42
December 02 2017 15:51 GMT
#2
I miss those times when it was 5 people in a chat channel. Meeting every evening, playing, updating, discussing... . During the TB hype, people didnt read the BETA in "Starbow Beta". The TB hype ultimately ended up being a good thing though for the game.

5/5 blog cause Xiphias.
aka Kalevi
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 17:33:02
December 02 2017 17:32 GMT
#3
ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ* Raise Your Starbows! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ*


♥ you Xiph

5/5 blog btw
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 02 2017 17:46 GMT
#4
Oh crap. I forgot to give a shoutout to Starbow mapmakers. Well, better late than never:

Uvantak (Kantuva), Avex, Superouman, IeZeal, Meavis and probably others I've forgotten.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
propagare
Profile Joined April 2013
Germany93 Posts
December 02 2017 17:57 GMT
#5
Thank you so much for Starbow ♥
„Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to bring the flame, whatever the cost.” ~
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 18:12:45
December 02 2017 18:11 GMT
#6
Iam dirtybag and i dont agree with this story. Nowhere in my mind were it talk about "purely balance of units". My opinion is that both kabel and you xiphias lacked big time when it came to understanding the game, knowing what to do, lacking a gamedesign plan and also lacking of how to properly balance the game.

Not only this, but you both also lacked big time how to organise what people should work on.

The mod failed because of these reasons. The mod was actually never even good.
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
December 02 2017 19:04 GMT
#7
On December 03 2017 03:11 Foxxan wrote:
The mod failed because of these reasons. The mod was actually never even good.

You are entitled to your opinion. But I know a bunch of people who disagree with yours.
aka Kalevi
Avexyli
Profile Blog Joined April 2014
United States694 Posts
December 02 2017 19:45 GMT
#8
I was so happy to be a part of this.

Love you guys.
AVEX - Multi Winner, Finalist, Judge of the TeamLiquid Map Contests, Currently assisting developing StarCraft: Evolution Complete as Environment Artist & Multiplayer Game Design and Balancing.
Deleuze
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United Kingdom2102 Posts
December 02 2017 20:38 GMT
#9
Great blog - I love internet/gaming history.

You did so well to pull all that together and do a Masters degree, have three kids and start an FT job!

Thanks for sharing this, was never part of it big time - played a few games years ago - but great to see what it really was.
“An image of thought called philosophy has been formed historically and it effectively stops people from thinking.” ― Gilles Deleuze, Dialogues II
Anzki
Profile Joined July 2013
Finland24 Posts
December 02 2017 23:15 GMT
#10
Good post, ill never forget winning that one starbow tourney for new players, it had great hosts and fun players. Also this guy xiphias is a jolly mate.
itsMAHVELbaybee
Profile Joined October 2008
292 Posts
December 03 2017 15:15 GMT
#11
TitanWet here.

Starbow was a lot of fun at the time. Especially when I was getting sick and tired of the meta SC2 was in during the blink stalker all-in era. Starbow made me rethink RTS games and revisit BW concepts. Overall it helped me as a player and made me reconsider a lot of preconceived notions.

Was fun while it lasted. Will never forget:
I am boss. -Minami-ke
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 04 2017 08:04 GMT
#12
Man, so much nostalgia here in the comments. We need to all get together and do a 2v2v2v2 FFA on BGH in Starbow :D
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
zawk9
Profile Joined March 2011
United States427 Posts
December 08 2017 03:28 GMT
#13
Zawk here.

Xiphias I was only a low level player, but I really appreciated the work you did on the mod. Being able to mass play games against Finn and Vehk was always fun. Sometimes I would lurk in the channel for quite a while just to find someone to play with, but I was having so much fun with the mod that it was worth it. I'll always remember winning a low level Starbow tournament that Vehk casted. It was a real blast.

I haven't followed the mod much in quite a while and it's been even longer since I played it, but I want to thank you for all the work you put in on it. It gave me many hours of enjoyment even well after the initial hype died out and it was just a few of us in the skype chat.
there's a bug in the new patch where the other player keeps killing all my dudes.. please nerf this
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
December 08 2017 21:00 GMT
#14
I played a dozen Starbow games, and it seemed quite fun, but I also wonder if there is any value to Starbow with BWHD being out.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Azelja
Profile Joined May 2011
Japan762 Posts
December 11 2017 15:23 GMT
#15
"SilidSMD"

You fucking what?
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 11 2017 19:09 GMT
#16
On December 12 2017 00:23 Azelja wrote:
"SilidSMD"

You fucking what?


Fixed
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Azelja
Profile Joined May 2011
Japan762 Posts
December 11 2017 19:29 GMT
#17
On December 12 2017 04:09 Xiphias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2017 00:23 Azelja wrote:
"SilidSMD"

You fucking what?


Fixed


That's my boy!

Now to rewatch the series I beat you in years ago... MWAHAHAHAHAaaa...
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 37m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EnDerr 51
StarCraft: Brood War
Mong 1029
Hyuk 625
Killer 431
TY 276
Mind 145
EffOrt 96
soO 58
Leta 55
Bale 3
Dota 2
XcaliburYe378
Fuzer 57
League of Legends
JimRising 1224
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1070
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor248
Other Games
summit1g5989
Happy294
SC2_NightMare1
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 31
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2182
League of Legends
• Stunt543
Upcoming Events
SOOP
37m
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1h 37m
AllThingsProtoss
2h 37m
Fire Grow Cup
6h 37m
BSL: ProLeague
9h 37m
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
15h 37m
Replay Cast
1d 15h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
3 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.