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[BW/SCR] Balance is an Intractable Problem

Blogs > LegalLord
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LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 01 2017 21:47 GMT
#1
So if anyone of you are familiar enough with my BW posts, you might remember that I made two posts on the balance of the game: the Balance and Bonjwas article and the follow-up Maps and Metagames. I actually had a few follow-up pieces in the works, but unfortunately, I pretty much had to stop. Why? Well besides obvious issues of being fairly busy and a shortage of people willing to discuss it in depth, it was this one simple realization:

There is no good way to define balance.

It's not something that I realized right away, but it is something that, after many attempts to do just that, I realized that is as true as can be. And if we can't make a good definition that is testable, then we're just wrestling with philosophy. Sure, I could go whip out my old playbook of philosophical logic and philosophy of science and have a fun little talk in the process, but as I've found over the years, any philosophy debate always ends in some nice little discussion but then a realization that you can't prove anything, you can't logic your way into anything, and you all just agree to have your little inconclusive talk then go about your business. That's not what any of us want; all that will lead to is just folk leaning to the feel-good, but rather misguided, solution that either the game is close to perfectly balanced, or that balance doesn't matter, neither of which are good conclusions based on the results compiled in my two articles. But I'm not sure we can do better.

Another individual on this forum who was really into posting long diatribes about balance (among other things) is letmelose, who takes a fairly different approach to it all. You can feel free to read through his blogs or his various posts; there are plenty to look through. While I don't know if I could really pin a specific style on him, if I had to try then I would put it as "eclectic" in that he seems to take a lot of rather different approaches to proving a point, and showing how a certain range of indicators prove a certain point. With regards to Terran and their place on the top of the rankings, this post is a good sample, showing how many different indicators show the same thing. It's not exactly proof and yet, whenever I disagreed with a point made this way (such as here), it was hard to figure out exactly why or how it was or wasn't true. It just seemed to be perfectly valid from a completely different definition of balance.

I also corresponded with another individual around these parts - Jealous / fanatacist - who was interested in trying to use my data to look at the problem with different methods to gain a more useful result. I did give him all the datasets I worked with, but it seemed like he got stuck in that neither he nor any of his sources could make sense of it either. This post seems to suggest as much as well. And my own posts were a fairly simplistic analysis of line graphs and histograms, because I too felt that there was no way to frame the problem better.

I could easily prove that Terran has the best results overall, that Protoss have pretty bad results all around, and that Zerg are somewhere in the middle and buoyed by large quantities of players. I've done it before with one method, letmelose has done it with other methods, and I could dig up any number of further indicators that will show that it is so. It's not hard; the data clearly shows it to be the true. But that's not enough to close the case. It might give one explanation as to why, but it's not necessarily more valid than any other explanation. I personally focus on the way that the TvT matchup supports the advancement of better players rather than dice-roll mechanics and that the TvZ/ZvP/PvT spread clearly favors Terran. But there are other ways to show similar results that follow a completely different, and perhaps partially contradictory, train of logic. It doesn't show that this is an essential reality rather than an accident of how the professional BW scene developed, and the argument could be made with reasonable accuracy that either the map choices over time or the metagame influenced the results and that a different evolution would have given different results. And so on and so forth ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

What would really be the holy grail that would allow this to work is if we could agree upon one single definition of balance, a testable idea which we could evaluate to say that something either is or isn't balanced. With that in hand, it would be little more than a task of writing a mathematical proof, or at least a highly suggestive statistical analysis. But without that in hand, there really is nothing that we can do. If we use the same term "balance" but we can't agree what it means, then we can do all the analysis we want but it won't make a bit of difference because we are just essentially talking past each other. And for all the effort I've put into it, and for all the people I've queried, no one definition really seems to make sense, so I can only conclude that we're talking mere philosophy rather than mathematics.

That being so, I've been forced to come to the conclusion as listed in the title: balance is an intractable problem. We can't define it, so ultimately we're just going to end up going in circles talking about it, without ever coming to a suitable final answer.

*****
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
October 02 2017 06:26 GMT
#2
Let's say for example, that balance correlated specifically with win ratios in professional-level league matches. If this were true, then balance would be directly tied to trends. I think parts of the community have come to the assumption that no further trends will ever emerge, and that no standard plays will ever deviate from the current trend. Right now, Terran seems to rule the world, and Flash rules the Terrans. Because Flash has been so dominant for so long, I think people are wrongly assuming that he will never become beatable, and then make the wrong assumption that Terran -- the race -- is favored in terms of balance.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-02 13:52:54
October 02 2017 13:52 GMT
#3
Well if that's your definition, then we can pull out these old graphs.

[image loading]
[image loading]

Which show a fairly consistent trend over the long term. I mean it's always possible to say, "maybe the future will be different" but if 11 years under the same game give the same results it probably is highly suggestive that that trend will continue. And it's not really about Flash; he may be dominant now but he was even more dominant before, so evidently there is some indication that he can be beat. What is interesting about Flash, though, is that out of the most dominant players of the pack, (Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, arguably Fantasy) he, as a Terran, was the one who came out on top in the end. And the same trend holds true with every era except for the one dominated by Savior.

In that light, it's not hard to show that Terran is consistently on top over a very long period of time. It's just nowhere near enough to explain how and why balance is as it is. If we start talking individual players, we'll quickly start into the game of having to build a consistent speculative narrative - which has no guarantee of being consistent with other narratives that also explain the facts. And so again we are back to mere philosophy.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 02 2017 17:13 GMT
#4
More or less agree with the premise LegalLord.

I think the best you can do is look at the trends at a given homogeneous skill level and see what goes on. It probably does vary by skill level as well. I can't think of any reason to believe that say KeSPA statistics overall represent a reasonably homogenous skill level between races. You'd need a pretty interesting argument to convince me that terran players are inherently a more skilled group than zerg or protoss players, or any other permutation of that.

Given that assumption, and a large sample size of games, I think it's fair to say that at korean progamer level everybodies favorite P>T>Z>P trend is indicative of balance. Assuming homogeneity of skill and sufficient sample size of games, I can't think of any other factors that would contribute to overall win rates.

What I think we are far less equipped to do, is consider why terran was always dominate in starleagues and why most of the great BW champions were terran. It's quite probable playing terran was a factor in that...but it's also very possible for players at the absolute tip of the iceberg to be significantly better than other players. Put simply, Flash's skill and victories might not have anything at all with him being terran, and everything to do with him being that good. With only 5 or 6 "all time greats" there is a chance that these players were just the most skilled/hardworking/talented players, and by chance 5 of them played terran.

This looks even more probable when one considers just "modern" BW from say late 2000s on. You could arguably include Savior, and then you have Flash dominance, with JD and to a lesser extent Bisu being right there. Is FlaSh equally as skilled as Jaedong was, but more dominant because of the race he played, or is he just a player with more skill than Jaedong? Not sure there is really a way to decide, but both answers are reasonable.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
sicklucker
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada16987 Posts
October 04 2017 10:38 GMT
#5
a small nerf to marines and zerglings probably balances broodwar perfectly tbh. those units are just too strong and make tvz ans zvp a little imbalanced. so very small nerfs
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