• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 10:36
CET 16:36
KST 00:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Rongyi Cup S3 - RO16 Preview3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational10SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)19Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
[Short Story] The Last GSL StarCraft 2 not at the Esports World Cup 2026 Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued Stellar Fest "01" Jersey Charity Auction PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey!
Tourneys
OSC Season 13 World Championship $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) $70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Potential Map Candidates BW General Discussion Gypsy to Korea Which foreign pros are considered the best? BW AKA finder tool
Tourneys
Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Esports Advertising Shap…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1351 users

Towards a good SC bot - P5 - H.I. (2/2)

Blogs > imp42
Post a Reply
imp42
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
398 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-04 04:36:34
February 04 2017 04:11 GMT
#1
Towards a good StarCraft bot - Part 5 - "Human Intelligence (2/2)"

Sumary:
+ Show Spoiler +
An artificial intelligence cannot count on intuitions and experiences, e.g. about how physics works, to draw conclusions about game mechanics. Even if it could, it cannot interpret the pixel data without being given any pointers. The reason why we are better at games is because we draw from many different components. So a good A.I. bot should do the same.


My last post in the series dealt with human intelligence and how humans work.

I finished with the following outlook: “In a next post, I will attempt to map the cognitive capabilities to attributes of an artificial intelligence, compare strengths and weaknesses and hopefully lay out a road map to cover current deficiencies of bots.”

Before getting to that, let’s start with a guide on how to not think like a human

Section 1: How to not think like a human

Sometimes we may ask ourselves why machines are so bad at doing something that seems so easy to us. A well-known blogger asks why a machine needs tens of thousands of iterations evolving a neural net to play something as simple as a game of pong. After all, we humans are able to learn the game within just a few minutes.

In my opinion such questions are based on a misconception. Most notably our tendency to think that we are smarter than we actually are. Our brain is not the general-purpose intelligence machine you may think it is. In fact, it is very optimized for problems and situations that are expected to occur in nature. Our brain also takes a lot of shortcuts to get great results in most of the cases. A well-tuned heuristic approach, so to speak. Those shortcuts however, come at a cost. This is best visualized via a wide range of optical illusions, which mercilessly exploit said shortcuts to trick us into viewing something that isn’t there.

Another very sensible shortcut we take is the fact that we come pre-equipped with a physics engine. 6-month-old babies already understand basic concepts such as the law of inertia or simply the fact that if an object is there now, it will probably still be there in a second.

Here comes the second misconception: games like pong (actually I would bet almost any game we have invented) are not necessarily easy, but follow a specific set of rules that is very familiar to us humans. If you press “up” on your controller, your pong bad will move up. If you press it again, it will still go up. If the pixels representing the ball are in the middle of the screen now and were a bit to the left a second ago, they will probably shift a bit to the right in the future, because the ball movement is simulated to follow a physical law and keeps its direction until it hits an obstacle.

Now take a step back and imagine a game of pong which does not follow any rules we already knew as a baby. Let’s say the ball just appears anywhere on the screen in a pattern that is predictable, but very hard to spot. Would we still fare better than the A.I. programs? Certainly not. In fact, the machine would probably beat us to finding such an unnatural pattern.

If we want to understand the challenges of A.I., for example in the field of Brood War, we must think like a machine. When a machine is fired up for the first time it knows nothing. Absolutely nothing at all. No wonder a neural net takes a very large number of iterations to become good at a particular task if it has to rediscover all of nature’s laws via trial and error first, right?

Let’s apply this line of thinking to Brood War and ask some questions that seem silly to us, because we instantly know the answer:

  • What choke on the map should I protect with my units before I expand to my natural? What’s a choke anyways?
  • If my win condition is to have zero enemy buildings on the map, why should I mine minerals first? (LetaBot, winner of the SSCAI tournament 2016, doesn’t know the answer to this one either :p)
  • How could a map with very short rush distances potentially influence the game?
  • So the opponent just stole my gas. What do I do now?

Now try answering these questions imagining you have no previous understanding whatsoever and start with a blank state.
Let's pick the rush distance as an example: Without knowing or having an intuition about s = V / s (time = speed / distance) how could you possibly connect the dots to conclude that a shorter distance between bases will make the enemy units arrive sooner? Remember the A.I. doesn't know anything unless it is told! (you don't want your bot to have to rediscover classic physics on its own every time you start it...)

Recently I saw an old edition of Brood War “pimpest plays”. Video: + Show Spoiler +

At the 2 minute mark the zerg player needs gas, but his last drone is threatened by a Wraith. The impressive solution is to repeatedly use dark swarm to protect the drone from the Wraith, escorting the drone step by step all the way to the geyser. How did the human player come up with this creative solution? He did the following reasoning within seconds:

  1. Opponent has a Wraith, I need to counter with a Scourge
  2. I need gas to train a Scourge, but I don’t have any
  3. I need to mine gas, so I have to send a drone to the geyser
  4. There is only one drone left, so send it
  5. The drone is being attacked by the Wraith and will likely die before it reaches the geyser
  6. I can protect the drone from ranged Wraith attacks by using a Dark Swarm
  7. For Dark Swarm I need a Defiler. I happen to have one, so I use it
  8. I cast the Dark Swarm in a way such that the drone can close the distance to the geyser
  9. Further Dark Swarm spells are required to cover the remaining distance, but the defiler doesn’t have any energy
  10. Consume a Zergling to regain energy
  11. Cast another Dark Swarm and repeat the procedure until the drone reaches the geyser

How will a bot ever be able to devise such a plan? Note that the concept of covering something from the vision of a third party is very natural to us. It is part of the physics engine we are hardwired to intuitively understand, just like the relation between distance, speed, and time. It also makes intuitively sense that melee units can still attack in a Dark Swarm, but ranged units can’t. But a bot has none of this knowledge and experience at its disposal. It needs to understand what the spell does and how it can be applied without being able to base such learning on its intuition of how things are supposed to work.

Also, I am fairly certain that the Deepmind approach, using neural nets that learn from pixel data will not suffice. After all, not even us humans, equipped with a pre-tuned specialized brain, learn a new game just by looking at it. Instead, we immediately interpret what we see and apply known rules to it to deduce new facts. By the way: one of the shortcuts mentioned earlier is the fact that we excel at visual pattern recognition. To the point, we even recognize patters where there aren’t any (in clouds or peanuts or random wood that “looks exactly like the face of Jesus”).

Let’s take famous Super Mario as an example. From a few pixels on the screen we immediately recognize it is supposed to depict a human being. It has legs, so it can walk. When Mario walks all the other pixels move right to left. This means Mario is moving left to right and the camera changes with him. It will require dedicated action to make him jump, but he will get down by himself due to gravity. Other characters are likely to be enemies if they frown or throw stuff at us, but friends if they smile. All of this knowledge that we are born with or have acquired outside the game help us mastering the game faster. Because we don’t reason over the raw data (pixels) but over our interpretation of the raw data (Mario).

Bots can’t do that. They are unable to interpret a syntax semantically and attach a meaning to their input. But what if we gave them some support to at least take the first steps in this direction?

Section 2: How to think like a human: mapping cognitive abilities

This brings us back to the initial “silly questions”.

  • What choke on the map should I protect with my units before I expand to my natural? What’s a choke anyways?

There are algorithms able to define what a choke is. And they have been shown to produce classifications similar to the ones done by humans (see BWTA and this paper)

But what is lacking is an interpretation. Apart from the idea of coupling a physics engine to a neural net, which in a way couples experience to learning ability, further progress can be achieved by adding dedicated components corresponding to the cognitive abilities:

Attentional control: the decision making involved in deciding what information streams to pay attention to, whether to process them and how to process them. Thread scheduling.

Example: We may decide to ignore the audio channel in our bot. Or we may use a classic tree-based search and need to decide what branches to prune and what branches to calculate in more depth = pay more attention to.

Working memory: the system responsible for holding, processing, and manipulating information. This definition for humans can be applied 1:1 to bots. It includes not only how much memory is available, but also the structure of it. The structure determines how fast memory read and write operations are and makes a trade-off between speed and size.

Examples: use a linked list of all units encountered in the game (fast delete, O(n) search). Cache pre-calculated income curve calculations. Load a heat map into memory consisting of condensed snapshots from every 10 second interval of all past games the bot has played.

Reasoning: a database containing facts and rules, as well as the ability to draw conclusions. The Prolog programming language provides a direct implementation of this ability.

Example: Facts about unit stats and rules how they interact allows reasoning as to how to counter a specific enemy army composition.


Problem solving: Probably best mapped to computational pattern recognition. Very generally spoken it is the ability to detect pattern on an adequate level of abstraction such that solutions from known problems can be applied. Pattern recognition covers an entire branch of machine learning.

Example: abstract the scenario of blocking a ramp with SCVs to prevent a Zergling rush to blocking any kind of melee unit with any other unit. This ability can then potentially be applied in unforeseen situations.

Planning: the computational power to explore search trees and known relations to simulate future outcomes and then pick one outcome that satisfies the goal to achieve.

Example: A combat simulator or an algorithm to plan the safest route for a dropship.

Conclusion

Only when everything comes together can we reason: “my main is surrounded by non-walkable terrain, except for one exit. (attentional control) At this point, my opponent cannot have any flying units yet (Reasoning, working memory). Therefore, if he wants to attack any of my buildings or workers, he must move through the single choke (problem solving). I can block enemy units with my own units (working memory). On the entire path from his base to my base, the choke is the point where least units are required to fully block his path (problem solving). The earliest rush I have experienced so far arrived at the x minute mark (working memory). But this time we are cross-position, so I will adjust a bit and make sure I block my choke at the y minute mark. (planning)” etc.

How to glue all of this together?
I don't know. But I'm sure we will find out



*****
50 pts Copper League
nepeta
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
1872 Posts
February 05 2017 12:59 GMT
#2
Words of wisdom again, it's good that things like these are explained. Can't wait to see your bot in action btw!
Broodwar AI :) http://sscaitournament.com http://www.starcraftai.com/wiki/Main_Page
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 21:58:25
February 05 2017 21:57 GMT
#3
On February 04 2017 13:11 imp42 wrote:
An artificial intelligence cannot count on intuitions and experiences, e.g. about how physics works, to draw conclusions about game mechanics. Even if it could, it cannot interpret the pixel data without being given any pointers.

It can. Those google AI guys hooked their AI up with games like breakout and gave it no input other than the pixel data and a reward function. Worked like a charm.

video
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
imp42
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
398 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-07 14:33:38
February 06 2017 01:02 GMT
#4
On February 06 2017 06:57 spinesheath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2017 13:11 imp42 wrote:
An artificial intelligence cannot count on intuitions and experiences, e.g. about how physics works, to draw conclusions about game mechanics. Even if it could, it cannot interpret the pixel data without being given any pointers.

It can. Those google AI guys hooked their AI up with games like breakout and gave it no input other than the pixel data and a reward function. Worked like a charm.

video

I am well aware of what Deepmind (acquired by Google) did with the Atari games.
but from my OP:

A well-known blogger asks why a machine needs tens of thousands of iterations evolving a neural net to play something as simple as a game of pong. After all, we humans are able to learn the game within just a few minutes.

Deepmind cannot interpret pixel data. And that is the reason it needs so many iterations to learn a simple game.
Actually that's what my blog post was about, so somehow I guess I didn't get the point across...

The video you linked even states in the first seconds "The algorithm does not know the concept of a ball".

It is absolutely a 100% completely ignorant to whether those pixels represent a car or a human or nothing.
It will never be able to interpret the pixels as e.g. a car and draw the conclusion that it might be able to drive it (because that's what you do with cars, you drive them). Instead it just reads an array of pixels and notices a pattern in that their color values shift to the right if it sends a specific input signal (we would say the car moves to the right if we press a specific button).

50 pts Copper League
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
February 07 2017 13:47 GMT
#5
you have shown pretty good ability to think about the issues and your writing about it is really good. however you still have an insane task of making it really work. are there kinds of "industry standarts" how to implement all the steps (attention control, reasoning, etc..) or is every problem too different and you have to reinvent everything?
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
imp42
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
398 Posts
February 10 2017 23:04 GMT
#6
On February 07 2017 22:47 opisska wrote:
you have shown pretty good ability to think about the issues and your writing about it is really good. however you still have an insane task of making it really work. are there kinds of "industry standarts" how to implement all the steps (attention control, reasoning, etc..) or is every problem too different and you have to reinvent everything?

"industry standards" in the sense that e.g. languages like Prolog facilitate logic programming (reasoning), implementations of tree search have been explored in great depth ( ), and of course neural nets, which are great at iteratively optimizing a utility function, simulating learning. But yes, combining different approaches to form a whole is a real challenge.

For now, my proposal is to not look for the one general approach to cover every aspect of A.I., but to combine specialized solutions for sub-problems and e.g. apply neural nets selectively.
50 pts Copper League
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 565
ProTech132
Rex 96
TKL 86
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4394
Horang2 2084
BeSt 908
hero 823
Larva 754
GuemChi 629
Snow 450
Jaedong 340
ggaemo 321
firebathero 264
[ Show more ]
Shuttle 231
Sharp 209
Killer 206
JYJ 181
Soulkey 164
Hyuk 150
Mong 143
Shine 62
Hyun 56
Barracks 48
Backho 43
Hm[arnc] 41
Shinee 38
Terrorterran 28
ToSsGirL 25
scan(afreeca) 21
Free 20
Sexy 18
910 17
Dota 2
singsing2669
qojqva2152
syndereN319
420jenkins138
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1980
fl0m1625
zeus1113
markeloff104
edward64
Other Games
crisheroes384
Hui .302
XaKoH 114
QueenE96
djWHEAT81
Mew2King62
ArmadaUGS41
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 192
• StrangeGG 66
• iHatsuTV 15
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4935
League of Legends
• Jankos3318
• TFBlade1458
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
1h 24m
Percival vs Gerald
Serral vs MaxPax
TKL 86
RongYI Cup
19h 24m
SHIN vs Creator
Classic vs Percival
OSC
21h 24m
BSL 21
23h 24m
RongYI Cup
1d 19h
Maru vs Cyan
Solar vs Krystianer
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 20h
BSL 21
1d 23h
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
OSC
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-20
OSC Championship Season 13
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025

Upcoming

Acropolis #4 - TS4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Nations Cup 2026
Tektek Cup #1
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.