It is a time-honored tradition that on internet forums, you must look for opportunities to argue with other posters. But you don't want to just go into a Brood War argument blind, because Brood War is an INTELLECTUAL GAME, and not for commoners who watch ball-based games and get all excited when LeBron James gets a grand-slam in the football game that one Sunday. Since Brood War is coming back to life and is officially not-dead, I expect an influx of uninformed plebeians, aka YOU, who will be looking for some account-lockingly-good arguments.
There are some "common sense" steps before you get to actually arguing. Forums are all about posturing, and getting street cred. Don't be that person who only argues, or no one on the internet will take you seriously. People will point and say, "There goes AngryProbeMicro again with his needless hostility."
Therefore,
1. Get over 9,000 posts. Typing one-liners into live report threads with stuff like "lol fail micro" will definitely help boost your post-count.
2. You need to play Brood War. Not a lot, just enough to get angry about whichever races aren't yours. This will come in handy later when angrily ranting. I'll explain in more detail how to use this in a bit.
3. Don't call anyone any of the following names: "retard", "faggot", "cunt", "subhuman", "bitch", "cancer", "literally cancer", "gook", n+ Show Spoiler +
(or any variation of an accusation of one who commits an act of fellatio, or one who receives anal penetration)
, "trash", "garbage", "cum-rag", "shit-bag", "fuckwad", "product of an incestuous relationship", "pedek", "probably a pedophile", "basement-dweller" (or make any references to a subterranean dwelling of any sort, or any accusation of reliance on one's mother for residency/shelter), "neckbeard", "fat neckbeard", "fedora-wearing fat neckbeard", "anti-skub", "village idiot", "village rapist", and never never never never never say, "Beg for more money, sick-boy." I think that's it. There could be more, but I can't think of any at the moment.
Edit: Also, "Jew".
Edit: Unless you're KwarK and can verbally abuse people you disagree with freely.
4. You can argue with anyone, no matter how skilled they are, especially if they're not Korean.
Now that's out of the way, let's talk about three guiding principles about arguing about Brood War: The Rule of Exceptions, The Law of The Meta Game, and The Out. These are all scientific laws, and if you disagree, then you're disagreeing with fucking science and are an illogical being.
The Rule of Exceptions
For every accepted standard in game theory, there is an exception, and one should exploit that weakness at every opportunity. For example, if someone says, "Going 3 hatch before pool is risky because you die to 8 rax." then you must find the exception to the rule and say, "A good Zerg can defend an 8 rax with 3 hatch before pool", and link to the VOD of a progamer doing it, preferably Jaedong. Also, if Flash did it, it's right. The Rule of Exceptions is essentially begging the question with an appeal to authority. If you post a game by a progamer, nobody can argue with you, because they are not progamers. This is why you can argue with anybody and why progamers should be revered as gods. Always try to be aware of exceptions by watching VODs here! Rmbr, this is just a starting point, but you'll get to say fun stuff like: "Bio versus Protoss is sustainable into the late game. Upmagic did it in his game versus blah blah blah."
The Law of The Meta Game
I wasn't sure what to call this. I guess it could also be called "The Equal Skill Theory", except we all know it's a LAW + Show Spoiler +
OF SCIENCE
. This law comes in handy when complaining about match-ups. The idea is that you could beat your opponent if you were more skilled than them (you must admit this as a preamble), but that if both players are "EQUAL IN SKILL", that x race seems to almost always beat y race. You must complain that your race (y) has to have more apm and better micro and has a tiny margin for error against x race. You can even do this as Protoss! Just complain how Terran just has to sit there and wait for a maxed army, and then if you don't engage perfectly with perfect storm drops and stasises, that your army will die and you won't be able to rebuild in time to do anything. Voila! The main idea here is that your opponent doesn't have to work quite as hard as you do to achieve victory.
The "meta game" part comes from another from another bit of common knowledge: that anything aside from the "standard meta" is gimmicky cheese bullshit, and if someone does it, it is dishonorable, and as an upstanding citizen on the ladder, you have pledged never to play 'gimmicky' to achieve your rank. Therefore, you are now confined to play "standard" 4 life. You should always play "SAFE", and complain that you are 'forced' to play this way because of all of the 'bullshit cheeses' available to your opposing race.
Note: 12 nex versus Terran is a cheese. It's official.
Note: If someone asks you about same-sex match-ups, here are the following complaints you use to explain why you don't play them:
ZvZ: coinflip PvP: coinflip TvT: too long
The Out
The Out is an amazing technique you can use for any argument, ever! The idea is that you say: "I see your point. x, y, and z pose problems with my argument. However..." and then you get back to your argument as if nothing happened. This is especially important when trying to hold The Rule of Exceptions and The Law of The Meta Game in your head simultaneously. The Rule of Exceptions basically says anything is possible, whereas The Law of The Meta Game says nothing outside of the present meta is possible. No matter which you are arguing, you can make certain concessions, for example: "I know some Zergs have winning ratios against Terrans, but in general, T>Z".
You need to use The Out to show how open-minded and not stupid/whiny you are. Any well-constructed argument about Brood War will need to use The Out, with a few minor exceptions (SEE WHAT I JUST DID THERE?). First, people will need to know that you are at least pretending to be open to other ideas. Second, if someone comes along and completely eviscerates you, you can always fall back on saying, "I wasn't saying I was right. I was saying this is what my thoughts were." and then you don't have to admit to being wrong because you already gave yourself an out. Hence, the name: The Out.
Now you're read to go out into the world. If you're not sure what to argue about, here are some suggestions:
- We should use battlecruisers in TvZ - We should use disruption web in PvT - We should use scouts versus Zerg - We should use ghosts to lockdown arbiters that are coming to recall - We need to do nuke rushes against Zerg more - Zerg should use burrow against Terran - Zerg should use ensnare against Terran and Protoss - Zerg should use parasite in general because it's free scouting - Why not use firebats as drops against Protoss probes - ZvT is broken because Zerg is forced to go pool first or die to bunkers - TvP is broken because Protoss can go 12 nexus with no consequences - PvZ is broken because too much zergs - ZvP is broken because reaver/cannon in the late game is impossible to break - PvT is broken because the mech ball is unstoppable - ZvT is broken because the mech ball is unstoppable - ZvT is broken because +1 5 rax and my mutas can't micro down 36 marines - PvZ is broken because lurkers - PvZ is broken because hydra bust - PvZ is broken because of zerg units - PvT is broken because strong FD - TvZ is broken because defiler too strongk - TvP is broken because carriers - TvP is borked because of recalls
You can either start a thread whining about these (not recommended, unless you make it very subtle), or inject your opinion into an existing thread (highly recommended). Good luck and have fun, you soulless meatbag!
What's the best Brood War argument tactic you've seen used?
I can't believe there is no subsection devoted to arguing about BW vs. SC2. It's an art form that has dire consequences (banning) if not done with elegance. Consider the fact that you're not even comparing things from within the same game anymore, and you can see how that can be both daunting and exciting because of the abstractness of it. That's where all of my best strategy arguments have been without a doubt.
A related subject is of course meta-meta-arguing about BW. As in, talking about BW's design as a whole, stuff like the bugs, pathing, patching, etc. Example:
It's almost impossible to be wrong, but you can certainly use colorful language and subtly insinuate that the person you're arguing against is both dumb and bad at the game!
Note how I used the Law of Exceptions to PRE-EMPT my adversary, meaning that he couldn't do it himself! That's Advanced Forum Warfare.
The "Git Gud" Clause is always applicable when someone complains about anything in this game. If it doesn't work for you, you're not good enough. Unless, of course, what you're doing is stupid, then you need to get good and realize that it is stupid.
you forgot to mention the effective use of smileys to end a passive aggressive sentence, though you've done really well considering your blogging level
On January 20 2017 11:57 Scarecrow wrote: you forgot to mention the effective use of smileys to end a passive aggressive sentence, though you've done really well considering your blogging level
That's only for people who are really bad at arguing
On January 20 2017 11:57 Scarecrow wrote: you forgot to mention the effective use of smileys to end a passive aggressive sentence, though you've done really well considering your blogging level
That's only for people who are really bad at arguing
This is one of the most useful, insightful, and creative blogs I've yet to encounter on TL. I've been here for over a decade (I had an older account than this one!) and I've seen some good content... but this is up there.
i realized afterwards this kinda sounds sarcastic. while I am often sarcastic, I actually think this blog is hilarious :D
On January 20 2017 14:19 Th1rdEye wrote: This is one of the most useful, insightful, and creative blogs I've yet to encounter on TL. I've been here for over a decade (I had an older account than this one!) and I've seen some good content... but this is up there.
i realized afterwards this kinda sounds sarcastic. while I am often sarcastic, I actually think this blog is hilarious :D
I'm glad you liked it, but I don't think it's feature-worthy.
On January 20 2017 20:17 Shock710 wrote: you didnt do what i thought you were going to do, which i was going to counter perfectly and crush you, dumbshit learn to play
On January 20 2017 18:16 Sr18 wrote: As another decade long resident, I too approve of this blog. I'm also ashamed to admit that I've been guilty of most of these bad arguing habits.
These are good habits.
On January 20 2017 21:08 ImbaTosS wrote: Damn, Shade really didn't help the rest of us AoV-ers. I remember that kid, such a lost soul ^^
I don't think he had a soul, actually. Also, happy birthday.
On January 20 2017 21:08 Saechiis wrote: What monster has BW, SC2 and LoL running at the same time?
self confidence is very important when it comes to winning any argument. i recommend the methods of Joe Land... to improve your confidence and win more arguments.
Get in before this patch thread gets nerfed by a mod.
"argument". Yeah let's get in and recycle all those silly balance questions AGAIN, especially those of us who thought that the last missions in the campaign were really challenging.
Get in before this patch thread gets nerfed by a mod.
"argument". Yeah let's get in and recycle all those silly balance questions AGAIN, especially those of us who thought that the last missions in the campaign were really challenging.
That thread gave me AIDS. Anyone can make custom maps to change balance stuff, and in fact, we should do that for funsies. Also, DA sees a lot of usage in 2v2v2v2 bgh games because it's the only way to stop that wall of guardians from sweeping your base away. They think everything is about 1v1! Sad!
Get in before this patch thread gets nerfed by a mod.
"argument". Yeah let's get in and recycle all those silly balance questions AGAIN, especially those of us who thought that the last missions in the campaign were really challenging.
That thread gave me AIDS. Anyone can make custom maps to change balance stuff, and in fact, we should do that for funsies. Also, DA sees a lot of usage in 2v2v2v2 bgh games because it's the only way to stop that wall of guardians from sweeping your base away. They think everything is about 1v1! Sad!
i think in general that the implications for the RISK Ums map are not considered enough. Blizzard has to keep it in mind when making the inevitable balance change.+ Show Spoiler +
which won't matter because ICCup is to broken to be patched anyway. Let's all play on US EAST.+ Show Spoiler +
OR we put all our hopes on this server thingie with like 10 players, no ladder, no antihack, but a fancy launch from browser function!
Get in before this patch thread gets nerfed by a mod.
"argument". Yeah let's get in and recycle all those silly balance questions AGAIN, especially those of us who thought that the last missions in the campaign were really challenging.
That thread gave me AIDS.
don't worry about it Magic Johnson has been HIV+ since 1990.
Get in before this patch thread gets nerfed by a mod.
"argument". Yeah let's get in and recycle all those silly balance questions AGAIN, especially those of us who thought that the last missions in the campaign were really challenging.
That thread gave me AIDS. Anyone can make custom maps to change balance stuff, and in fact, we should do that for funsies. Also, DA sees a lot of usage in 2v2v2v2 bgh games because it's the only way to stop that wall of guardians from sweeping your base away. They think everything is about 1v1! Sad!
i think in general that the implications for the RISK Ums map are not considered enough. Blizzard has to keep it in mind when making the inevitable balance change.+ Show Spoiler +
which won't matter because ICCup is to broken to be patched anyway. Let's all play on US EAST.+ Show Spoiler +
OR we put all our hopes on this server thingie with like 10 players, no ladder, no antihack, but a fancy launch from browser function!
Get in before this patch thread gets nerfed by a mod.
"argument". Yeah let's get in and recycle all those silly balance questions AGAIN, especially those of us who thought that the last missions in the campaign were really challenging.
That thread gave me AIDS.
don't worry about it Magic Johnson has been HIV+ since 1990.
I always try to stay positive. But why do you think he's called Magic Johnson? Because he can dip his Johnson in AIDS and it will magically stay alive.
That thread gave me AIDS. Anyone can make custom maps to change balance stuff, and in fact, we should do that for funsies. Also, DA sees a lot of usage in 2v2v2v2 bgh games because it's the only way to stop that wall of guardians from sweeping your base away. They think everything is about 1v1! Sad!
Any team game that has protoss in it is broken because of carriers. I dearly hope that Blizzard fixes blimps in the next update
That thread gave me AIDS. Anyone can make custom maps to change balance stuff, and in fact, we should do that for funsies. Also, DA sees a lot of usage in 2v2v2v2 bgh games because it's the only way to stop that wall of guardians from sweeping your base away. They think everything is about 1v1! Sad!
Any team game that has protoss in it is broken because of carriers. I dearly hope that Blizzard fixes blimps in the next update
tbh any patch should really look at balancing around FMP then move on to some of the broken mirrors like TvT. tanks are tremendously OP and don't even get me started on the highground lowground imbalance. Blizzard is a terrible company which makes terrible games, many people say this, like combatEX, great guy, a smart guy, and probably the best player of all time. Blizz's playerbase only wins half of the time, and most of them are losers. We need to start winning more and stop listening to loser pro's and fake maths. #makesc2greatagain
That thread gave me AIDS. Anyone can make custom maps to change balance stuff, and in fact, we should do that for funsies. Also, DA sees a lot of usage in 2v2v2v2 bgh games because it's the only way to stop that wall of guardians from sweeping your base away. They think everything is about 1v1! Sad!
Any team game that has protoss in it is broken because of carriers. I dearly hope that Blizzard fixes blimps in the next update
On January 20 2017 20:17 Shock710 wrote: you didnt do what i thought you were going to do, which i was going to counter perfectly and crush you, dumbshit learn to play
I know BW vs SC2 arguing is frowned upon and frankly fucking stupid, but I think the SC2 community has some good ideas. You see, in the past few years, they seem to have learnt that balance whining is, in fact, retarded, and so some have subtly, cleverly changed their way of presenting arguments.
As it turns out, saying "x is bad game design" is a much better way of whining like a little bitch discussing the noble ESPORT known as starcraft, so that should replace common sentences such as "I have a hard time beating x", "my favourite korean terran lost against x" or even "x is op u n00b" . By taking the discussion from balance to the totally well defined concept of "game design" you can much more easily establish your intellectual superiority and gain an edge in the rest of the discussion.
On January 23 2017 06:56 Teoita wrote: I know BW vs SC2 arguing is frowned upon and frankly fucking stupid, but I think the SC2 community has some good ideas. You see, in the past few years, they seem to have learnt that balance whining is, in fact, retarded, and so some have subtly, cleverly changed their way of presenting arguments.
As it turns out, saying "x is bad game design" is a much better way of whining like a little bitch discussing the noble ESPORT known as starcraft, so that should replace common sentences such as "I have a hard time beating x", "my favourite korean terran lost against x" or even "x is op u n00b" . By taking the discussion from balance to the totally well defined concept of "game design" you can much more easily establish your intellectual superiority and gain an edge in the rest of the discussion.
I guess everyone is a game designer now. I'm actually on the balance-design team for a game called "Teen Angst Simulator", and many test players have said their teen is too hard to control and that hormone levels rise too quickly. So trust me when I say Skytoss is fucking broken as shit.
Id like to drop my w cents, first on your examples:
- We should use battlecruisers in TvZ, Firebathero - We should use disruption web in PvT, Foru, also did myself - We should use scouts versus Zerg, Or any match up :D. - We should use ghosts to lockdown arbiters that are coming to recall, Boxer vs free if i remember correctly - We need to do nuke rushes against Zerg more, Boxer - Zerg should use burrow against Terran, 2v2 - Zerg should use ensnare against Terran and Protoss, AND IN ZVZ - Zerg should use parasite in general because it's free scouting, Especially any unit that costs more gas than a queen - Why not use firebats as drops against Protoss probes, I got nothin - ZvT is broken because Zerg is forced to go pool first or die to bunkers - TvP is broken because Protoss can go 12 nexus with no consequences, Cryoc might disagree with my 12 nex - PvZ is broken because too much zergs, Haha, many zerg victims you say? - ZvP is broken because reaver/cannon in the late game is impossible to break, +storm - PvT is broken because the mech ball is unstoppable - ZvT is broken because the mech ball is unstoppable - ZvT is broken because +1 5 rax and my mutas can't micro down 36 marines, Go lurks! :D - PvZ is broken because lurkers - PvZ is broken because hydra bust - PvZ is broken because of zerg units - PvT is broken because strong FD - TvZ is broken because defiler too strongk - TvP is broken because carriers - TvP is borked because of recalls
Now my personal complain:
-Broodwar is broken because you are better than me.
On January 23 2017 06:56 Teoita wrote: As it turns out, saying "x is bad game design" is a much better way of whining like a little bitch discussing the noble ESPORT known as starcraft, so that should replace common sentences such as "I have a hard time beating x", "my favourite korean terran lost against x" or even "x is op u n00b" . By taking the discussion from balance to the totally well defined concept of "game design" you can much more easily establish your intellectual superiority and gain an edge in the rest of the discussion.
this is the kind of high order thinking one is capable of once one has 10,000+ posts on this forum.
No mention of The Stove in OP, however I understand why as it's a build that is rarely used, except that one time when Pro player CrownRoyal used it and it was a fantastic build for at least 50% of the game where it worked 100% of the time.
As such, I and the rest of the scientific and mathematics community support this well-founded post. Kudos to you, Ninazerg.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x9pabIk.jpg)
brood war is awesome! 
