| Forum Index > BW General |
|
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On December 22 2015 09:14 Cele wrote: i think all of these would be better and Idra the least impressive of them, since he is basically overrated  idra was a lot of things but overrated wasnt one of them | ||
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 22 2015 09:14 Cele wrote: i think all of these would be better and Idra the least impressive of them, since he is basically overrated http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/98695-idras-recent-record wow so overrated | ||
|
iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
I think Im getting a bit side tracked from the core topic here :D. | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
On December 18 2015 19:03 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think people who come to BW for the first time should first play some 3v3 and make BW friends ^_^ that's how I started! getting straight into ICCup 1v1 is pretty brutal... even for a SC2 player unless you are Diamond/Master. It's too hard. Or, pick your opponents / go to D-. Or endure and get better but yeah you might not enjoy it too much at first. Well should keep in mind "D" is not really "D". Think of D as "Diamond" haha ; seriously it's just unpredictable the skill level of someone you play at D if you don't pickpersonally I think it's a real problem for newcomers or people who are actually D level on Iccup, isn't it? it's the uncomfortable skill level to be at I remember my friend who had quite a bit of BW experience, about 1000 games of 1v1 (on bnet + Iccup), he only reached D+ and that's not for lack of trying to get C- you just need a lot of experience and most importantly skill to play at D/D+ level on ICCup. I'm masters SC2 and I don't think BW is that great. If I was 14 I might have fallen in love with the game just as much as I loved SC2 when I was a teen. I have beaten some D/D+ players without ever watching a full BW vod and using liquipedia for build orders that were likely 5 years out of date. Here are my two gripes with BW:
| ||
|
Probemicro
3708 Posts
pretty rich coming from a fan of a game where 2 literal dancing balls clash together , look at all that lazors and free units, coolllll very thrilling for you yes? yeah everyone likes easy games, it sells, people know that ages ago. in current FPS you even have tutorials where they teach how to press "w" to move forward, "s" to backwards, wowwww how could gamers have not done with this in the past...no one to handhold them in the past, boohoo so they must live a terrible live back then also frustrated gamers can just buy MTX/DLC with $$$ to feel exclusive or to save time, wowww you can get high scores/levels without putting in effort!! great gaming, great design! even though its obvious you are ignorant with the intricacies of BW, thanks for your insightful post nevertheless. | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
Attacking me for being an sc2 fangay helps no-one. | ||
|
Probemicro
3708 Posts
besides like i said game developers have pretty much make games these days as easy and accessible as can be, and the gamers lap them up happily. You will never see games of the likes of Brood War being successful on the market again in this sort of industry, thats nice isn't it? about intricacies, the main reason why people are so wowed by BW is because of the insane mechanical skill required to pull off feats at the highest level. I think anyone that actually played BW extensively for a decent amount of time (not someone who just copied 2fact all-in from liquipedia and just use that all the way to C, which i think you did) will be able to appreciate the kind of skill/timing/moves, at every point of the game, needed to excel at the highest level. Players will adopt different strategies for different maps, there are feats of micro/macro that not any random amateur can also do as well. in sc2 theres hardly any difference between reaper micro of a diamond/master and that of a pro. in BW there are outliers that simply outclasses even their professional peers, Flash/JD/Bisu are basically the equivalent of messi/CR7 of BW. All i see in sc2 is just accumulate blob, blobs fight each other, large blob wins, person with large blob therefore wins. game is mechanically easier so skill ceiling is lower, one day a Korean wins code S and be top of the world, next month he crashes out of code A like a noob, no real legends to speak of because game is too volatile. anyone can win anyone on a good day. I actually find it ok to play with, just that game is boring as hell to watch. In korea it is said that only gamblers and people who support the old Kespa pros still watch sc2 also labelling yourself as sc2 "fangay" (is that another new childish meme) helps no-one either. | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
WYSISWYG is not just a term for programming, but also for game design. People should understand what is happening immediately after having seen it. Back to the football analogy, when Messi runs through 4 opponents and keeps running at near top speed while having had two attempted tackles and then score a goal is incredible to see. When I played broodwar, I get bothered by trying to micro my marines vs fast zealot + dragoon pressure against my 1 rax expand because it's difficult to tell when I can cancel a zealots attack animation, when the zealots actual damage is actually applied, how long it takes my marine to move given whether or not he has just stopped moving or shooting, and he probably hates that his zealots refuse to chase my marines where he clicks them to go, and his dragoons do a weird diagonal pathing even for straight walks. There is a tabletop game called Warhammer that stressed WYISWYG. If you saw a particular unit on a field with whatever weapon glued onto it, you could be able to predict how that unit will interact with other pieces on the board. Now, saying that I don't appreciate the skill/timing/moves of BW is something I'll agree with. I'll go ahead and say that you probably don't either. Games and sports follow an exponential graph of skill vs player population. The top players are orders of magnitudes better than the players even one "rank" below them, and those players are in turn immensely better than those an additional "rank" below them. Unless you're playing at A+ you know nothing of the game. And if you're playing at A+ you've just gotten to the point where you realize just how bad you are at the game. This extends to all games and sports. Regardless of how interesting or not they are. | ||
|
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On December 24 2015 16:32 Thaniri wrote: Saying fangay is me being playful because of inconsistent moderation on this forum, nothing to do with this thread really. It's also amusing because you continue to attack me as a person and not what I'm saying, so I like the term here. WYSISWYG is not just a term for programming, but also for game design. People should understand what is happening immediately after having seen it. Back to the football analogy, when Messi runs through 4 opponents and keeps running at near top speed while having had two attempted tackles and then score a goal is incredible to see. When I played broodwar, I get bothered by trying to micro my marines vs fast zealot + dragoon pressure against my 1 rax expand because it's difficult to tell when I can cancel a zealots attack animation, when the zealots actual damage is actually applied, how long it takes my marine to move given whether or not he has just stopped moving or shooting, and he probably hates that his zealots refuse to chase my marines where he clicks them to go, and his dragoons do a weird diagonal pathing even for straight walks. There is a tabletop game called Warhammer that stressed WYISWYG. If you saw a particular unit on a field with whatever weapon glued onto it, you could be able to predict how that unit will interact with other pieces on the board. Now, saying that I don't appreciate the skill/timing/moves of BW is something I'll agree with. I'll go ahead and say that you probably don't either. Games and sports follow an exponential graph of skill vs player population. The top players are orders of magnitudes better than the players even one "rank" below them, and those players are in turn immensely better than those an additional "rank" below them. Unless you're playing at A+ you know nothing of the game. And if you're playing at A+ you've just gotten to the point where you realize just how bad you are at the game. This extends to all games and sports. Regardless of how interesting or not they are. you got frustrated your marines cant shoot without them even finishing their animation like in sc2? sounds like typical "im d- in bw but master in sc2 let me cry about broodwar being more difficult waaah waaah" | ||
|
Probemicro
3708 Posts
By your logic of appreciation then nobody can appreciate what a master in some field does. Nobody knows everything! I already said people are so wowed by BW is because of the insane mechanical skill required to pull off feats at the highest level. When "Messi runs through 4 opponents and keeps running at near top speed while having had two attempted tackles and then score a goal is incredible to see", you think its incredible. THIS IS YOUR QUOTE You kick a ball maybe know how to dribble some cones, but you can never imagine how he does that. so if say people watch a game of BW Flash vs Jaedong and see how Jaedong simultaneously microed 2 control groups of Muta yet maintaining his macro and utterly toss Flash around like a noob, do BW fans not have the right to think thats incredible? I practice muta micro i think its not that easy to do to a decent terran, i can never imagine how Jaedong does that. I am sure people who have practiced or played zerg before would be absolutely wowed by that performance and appreciate the level of play Jaedong has performed. They may not fully understand it but everyone will know that they have definitely seen the pinnacle of high level play. And even then some have done muta micro extensively they will definitely have a sense of the difficulties and skill needed for Jaedong's play and applaud him. Thats not appreciation? | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
Dodging my complaints doesn't make them go away. edit: Unless I looked it up, I wouldn't know that Jaedong hotkeyed an overlord to his muta control group in order to stack them. I only need a pair of eyes to see a sportsman pull off an impressive feat. This is what I mean by intuition. The only video game genre that I think achieves this is FPS. | ||
|
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On December 24 2015 17:06 Thaniri wrote: arb, Why don't you go take up gladiator fighting if you want a challenge? It's probably harder than bw. Dodging my complaints doesn't make them go away. edit: Unless I looked it up, I wouldn't know that Jaedong hotkeyed an overlord to his muta control group in order to stack them. I only need a pair of eyes to see a sportsman pull off an impressive feat. This is what I mean by intuition. The only video game genre that I think achieves this is FPS. Oh wow good, guess you must be qualified to be a professional football scout then. Maybe barcelona will hire you someday keke. | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
| ||
|
Jealous
10166 Posts
On December 24 2015 16:32 Thaniri wrote: When I played broodwar, I get bothered by trying to micro my marines vs fast zealot + dragoon pressure against my 1 rax expand because it's difficult to tell when I can cancel a zealots attack animation, when the zealots actual damage is actually applied, how long it takes my marine to move given whether or not he has just stopped moving or shooting, and he probably hates that his zealots refuse to chase my marines where he clicks them to go, and his dragoons do a weird diagonal pathing even for straight walks. The solution to this is simply "get good." You go to TeamLiquid, ask for help. Likely, your question has been asked 23 times already and you didn't use the search function, so someone will make you feel bad for being bad at search and being bad at the game, but they will provide you with a reference thread, VOD, or Liquipedia post. Now the ball is in your court. You learn that yes, Marine micro is fucking hard. Yes, he actually has to pop off a few rounds before he swaggers backwards and he isn't skating on ice and without stim packs he isn't exactly Quickdraw McGraw. He also can't fluidly bump his Marine buddies out of the way. But you saw Flash execute the necessary Marine vs. Zealot micro so cleanly vs. Bisu in this game. What has Flash got that you don't have? You guys both have two eyes and ten fingers, I'm assuming. What he has that you don't have is practice. So what you do is you grind a couple dozen games of Rax FE on ICCup vs. other D- noobs and you keep practicing that Marine micro until they don't look like they are drooling on their bib at the assisted living facility. What you DON'T do is complain about some ridiculous concept with an unwieldy acronym in a fashion that doesn't even make sense. What you see is what you get: You see a Marine, a 50 resource tier 1 dude with relatively low HP and damage but with a variety of upgrades that can make him stronger. Oh, you don't feel like getting those upgrades and feel like having four-six of them is enough to hold off meaty-ass Zealots and tier 1.5 Dragoons with upgrades? You're an idiot trying to get more than what you see. Maybe you should go for a safer build. Not every Terran can micro Marines well enough or even be on top of their Bunker repair adequately to justify their use of Rax FE. Maybe you should practice more, or choose a different build until your mechanics rise to par. You see a Marine who has a corporeal presence on the map that cannot be violated by other landlocked units other than stacked workers, and who stands on firm ground with spaceman boots that have traction and don't behave like ice cubes on a hockey rink. Oh, you expect that a unit should push all of his neighbors ergonomically out of the way like spreading hot butter on a frying pan? That is straight up absurd and has absolutely no application to "What you see is what you get." It's SC2 that butchers this concept by creating the illusion that friction doesn't exist. TL;DR Stop crying, practice more, get better, laugh at the minor qualms you had as a D- rank noobie when you realize that you lost your C rank match because your Turret timing was 5 seconds off. On December 24 2015 16:32 Thaniri wrote: Now, saying that I don't appreciate the skill/timing/moves of BW is something I'll agree with. I'll go ahead and say that you probably don't either. Games and sports follow an exponential graph of skill vs player population. The top players are orders of magnitudes better than the players even one "rank" below them, and those players are in turn immensely better than those an additional "rank" below them. Unless you're playing at A+ you know nothing of the game. And if you're playing at A+ you've just gotten to the point where you realize just how bad you are at the game. This extends to all games and sports. Regardless of how interesting or not they are. This is also simply untrue. We may not appreciate 100% of everything that goes on, but it's not an all-or-nothing situation like you try to make it seem by saying "Unless you're playing at A+ you know nothing of the game." Proof: I am watching Flash play. Flash sees that Bisu made a Gateway in the middle of the map. Flash decides to make a second Barracks. However, he wants to hide this fact from Bisu, because information is power in a strategy game. BAM. I know something about the game. But, I know you were utilizing hyperbole, so I'll go on to the following... Proof: Korean commentators understand in-depth shit that many people don't know. However, they are not A+ on ICCup (going by the old ladder system, at least), and probably wouldn't be even close (with the obvious exception of players like Shark who commentated shortly after their retirement). They don't have to be A+ to know useful things about the game. Proof: Anyone who has tried to emulate a pro's build order only to find themselves 15 seconds behind and a few SCV/Marines behind at the 5:00 mark should have an appreciation of the skill/timing of BW. Anyone who has seen a pro gamer pull off a ridiculous micro feat can appreciate the moves of BW. Anyone who has seen a pro gamer play can appreciate the moves of BW. Anyone can appreciate BW. Just because I don't know the implications of Flash seeing that Protoss range is delayed by 10 seconds, which I probably wouldn't notice anyway, and therefore wouldn't know why Flash opted to not push out with his FD (because he suspects there may be proxy gates, I'd guess), I can still appreciate the fact that three minutes later he isn't dead and has made the right decision. Because he is still alive he continues to display skill far above anything I can achieve, sometimes far above anything I can understand, but not always something above what I can SEE. I SEE Flash hold this all-in. I SEE Flash move that Vulture around his third to lay mines behind the retreating Protoss Dragoons. Final Proof: You think all those screaming fangirls in the VODs are faking, or... Or are they really all A+ ICCup? I mean it is Korea, you might be right by assuming the latter, but statistically I find it hard to believe that every girl who screamed in a tense situation in a pro game is A+. Clearly they appreciate the game without being A+ and without needing to understand it at a pro gamer level. TL;DR You're wrong. I tried to not attack you as a person/be overly sarcastic but it's hard because of the above fact and the fact that you seem so oblivious to it. | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
I still think though that the average viewer can't even remotely comprehend what a progamer is doing. As such, the argument of appreciating higher skill diminishes until it's essentially zero. It's like "terrible terrible damage", everyone can understand it and it's easy, but very few people can understand the extremely minute scouting details where flashes barracks is one hex left of where it should be and that means X is coming. That exists in SC2 as well. The game becomes interesting where you have two people interacting with each other, and not with strange bugs in the case of BW or prepackaged animations and pixel vomit in SC2. SC2 build orders are also difficult to follow. If you don't believe me, then go ladder until grandmaster and notice people STILL mess up their build orders. Perhaps BW players are just a superior race. I won't git gud however because I just don't have an emotional investment into BW and would rather have a game that is easy to learn and hard to master. That in of itself is what makes a game engaging to me. On both ends of that particular argument is a slippery slope. If you tell me to go play farmville like the filthy casual I am, I'll tell you to go into a blood sport to have both extremes. It was nice to read a post that is well articulated after the pure shit that came before it. | ||
|
Jealous
10166 Posts
On December 24 2015 17:06 Thaniri wrote: Dodging my complaints doesn't make them go away. Not addressing them doesn't make them any less of a whiny baby routine. I'm willing to bet that every player who has touched this game has had trouble Marine microing at some point. People practice, get over it, get good, win games, go pro, OR they go on forums and cry about it. I'm willing to bet that every student who has attended college has had trouble with one concept at some point. People study, ask questions, gain understanding, ace the test, get the credits, graduate, OR they drop out and cry about it. I'm willing to bet that every soldier who has served in the military has had trouble with one physical challenge at some point. Soldiers train, persevere, draw strength from their platoon, become officers, OR they go AWOL like a pussy. I think you see where I'm going with this. Life isn't served on a silver platter, and the mentality that expects this in gaming is why SC2 has deathballs that can be moved around the map with no hassle, macrod up with very little effort, that smart-cast and smart-target, why Farmville makes bank, and why my mom plays Bejewelled on her Amazon Fire or whatever it's called. Because people like to feel good, and they feel good when they think they are good, and they think they are good when they are rewarded. Normally you have to work hard to get rewarded, but game companies realized that it's much more profitable to create a positive feedback loop by giving rewards for little-to-no effort instead of making people actually work for it. Like achievements in X-Box. Fuck, I should get $10 and a card every time I wake up before 9 am. I want it to pop up on my laptop with the PayPal transaction, "You have just earned 10 DOLLAR POINTS for waking up before 9 am! Do this FOUR more times this week to LEVEL UP your RESPONSIBILITY level!" | ||
|
Thaniri
1264 Posts
| ||
|
Jealous
10166 Posts
On December 24 2015 17:44 Thaniri wrote: Thanks Jealously. I still think though that the average viewer can't even remotely comprehend what a progamer is doing. As such, the argument of appreciating higher skill diminishes until it's essentially zero. It's like "terrible terrible damage", everyone can understand it and it's easy, but very few people can understand the extremely minute scouting details where flashes barracks is one hex left of where it should be and that means X is coming. That exists in SC2 as well. The game becomes interesting where you have two people interacting with each other, and not with strange bugs in the case of BW or prepackaged animations and pixel vomit in SC2. SC2 build orders are also difficult to follow. If you don't believe me, then go ladder until grandmaster and notice people STILL mess up their build orders. Perhaps BW players are just a superior race. I won't git gud however because I just don't have an emotional investment into BW and would rather have a game that is easy to learn and hard to master. That in of itself is what makes a game engaging to me. On both ends of that particular argument is a slippery slope. If you tell me to go play farmville like the filthy casual I am, I'll tell you to go into a blood sport to have both extremes. It was nice to read a post that is well articulated after the pure shit that came before it. Alright let's set a few ground rules. This hypothetical average person has to not be a total retard, ok? He is not a caveman who has never seen a computer screen, an autistic person with no understanding of the human motivation to win, etc. Given that premise, can you really tell me that the average person, even if they had never played Brood War before, or even SEEN Brood War before, won't understand this: Here is my attempt at unbiased watching: 1. Ok people talking, things moving around. 2. Ok, things moving towards each other, voices getting a little more amped now. 3. OKAY BLUE/WHITE LIGHTNING LOOKING STUFF IS COVERING A LOT OF THAT ONE BLOB. 4. GIRLS AND COMMENTATORS ARE SCREAMING LIKE CRAZY WTF? 5. Wow, a lot of that first blob's stuff is disappearing. Oh, I get it, they are fighting. That lightning stuff must be killing them. 6. These units are making sounds like they are shooting a cannon. They look kinda like Tanks, but I'm not too sure. 7. Man, at the end of all that, both blobs are pretty much gone! That was cool! If I had watched that game for a few minutes more, I'd realize that the red blob regrows much faster than the white blob. I'm going to guess that both of these players are making their blobs as big as possible, because clearly blobs are important here. I guess that means that that fight was crucial. I think I just comprehended what the progamer is doing. There's one thing I think you're forgetting/unaware of, it's the fact that at one point StarCraft was a hobby for a big demographic in South Korea. People would go on playdates at NetCafes to play StarCraft, and they were probably terrible at it. There were 3 channels dedicated to StarCraft, and people's GRANDMAS would be watching it. They were probably watching it because they could understand something about it, don't you agree? Of course, it helps that the commentators are explaining things here and there, but that's just like us having English commentators and English forums like these. The point I'm driving at is that people DO understand what is going on, at least on the most fundamental of levels. With more time invested in the game, your understanding deepens and so does your appreciation. But at the surface level, it IS "terrible terrible damage." There just has to be a lot under it to keep you going beyond that. For the record, I never said SC2 was easy. I've played it before and it is still a challenging game that is impossible to play perfectly. If it wasn't, then everyone would be progamer caliber. As is, even the top foreigners get chumped by Koreans all the time, so bad that they are splitting WCS tournaments for them or something? Just wanted to clarify that. But, we aren't talking about SC2. I mentioned it briefly above only to point out how it was also not in accordance your WYSIWYG requirement, and how BW is probably even closer to it than SC2 is. Addendum to that point, by the way: Dragoons are reincarnated souls trapped inside a goo-filled spider. Where in that description do you see the description of grace and elegance? I'm not surprised they are clumsy as fuck. Zealots are wearing that heavy-ass armor, that shit probably wears them out. Goliaths are fat Mechwarriors with reverse-knee bipedal motion trying to go up dirt ramps that are barely 1.5x their width, I'm not surprised their machine operators get confused or trip up. What DOES surprise me is that when you send the command to 100 Marines and Marauders to move to a certain location they all respond, rotate, and move simultaneously while efficiently converging as perfectly as possible on that location while slipping and sliding with their friction-less boots that only have friction when they are using them to propel themselves. And when it's time to kill something, but you done fucked up and that something got too close to you, you can stop shooting mid-bullet turn 180 degrees and be at full retreat speed in a millisecond, only to then turn around 180 and fire 1 bullet out of a machine gun in .1 seconds. That's that shit that doesn't make sense to me, being a human being and having experienced physics and friction and all. | ||
|
Jealous
10166 Posts
On December 24 2015 17:52 Thaniri wrote: You've won Jealous. I wasn't crying about it though, rather answering the threads question. I don't play BW, I was never involved in the scene. I tried it, wasn't engaged by it to learn it, and dropped it. I have hobbies that others would do the same to. Perhaps it comes down to just accepting people have other interests. I understand bw a lot better because of you. True. Different strokes for different folks. It'd be interesting to read some studies on why some people get hooked by one thing and others are turned off by it, for something like StarCraft. After having seen many testimonials on TeamLiquid, I have gotten the impression that many people out there played StarCraft when it first came out/when they were kids, and then they let it drop. Then someone referred them to a Boxer micro video, or they met someone really good online/in real life, and thus realized the sick things that they could potentially do. I look at a Boxer video and I think to myself "DAMN that looks awesome! It looks damn hard too, but I want to try it!" I'm sure a lot of other people agree, yet others are like "DAMN that looks like it would take forever to learn, fuck that." I have had that reaction to some stuff in life too. Glad to hear that I somehow managed to convey something to you, it's a rare occurrence on the internet! Cheers. | ||
|
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
- When playing a game like civilization, there's plenty of things that are going on of which you have no knowledge. You have to actually think about your strategy and try to come up with a plan based on limited information. - Games that are too straightforward are by definition less complex and thus less sustainable. There's mechanisms in civilization that took years for people to figure out. Getting good at the game is a journey, the way it's supposed to be. - When games are too straight forward, there's just less potential for players to become good. | ||
| ||
LiuLi Cup
Monthly Finals
Classic vs HeRoMaRinELIVE!
TriGGeR vs herO
Rogue vs TBD
[ Submit Event ] |
|
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Britney Dota 2  40350Calm  6159Horang2 1670Rain 1543PianO  1061Larva 547EffOrt 445Stork 418Mini 377BeSt 340[ Show more ] Counter-Strike Other Games B2W.Neo1732 Lowko420 Mlord401 DeMusliM377 SortOf116 Hui .109 djWHEAT64 ArmadaUGS51 QueenE36 Liquid`VortiX17 ZerO(Twitch)16 MindelVK9 Dewaltoss6 Happy2 Organizations Counter-Strike StarCraft: Brood War Other Games StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
|
Cosmonarchy
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
Big Brain Bouts
Iba vs GgMaChine
TriGGeR vs Bunny
Reynor vs Classic
Serral vs Clem
BSL Team Wars
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
Code For Giants Cup
SC Evo League
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
SC Evo League
Maestros of the Game
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
