I was just talking to a friend explaining my thoughts on the ZvZ meta and figured I might as well write a little post here for people wanting to get up to date on styles/builds. So in no particular order and just as I think of each topic, here we go:
On small maps are often both sides just crashing into each other with roach-bane or roach-ravager ling whereas bigger maps especially with safe 3rds like dusk towers often gravitate towards muta play.
Invader horizontal spawns is incredibly long rush distance but close air distance so some 2-base muta has been popping up there. Having a muta lead is so powerful because of the distance between bases too so many chances to leverage that advantage before a faster 3rd player can catch up.
The dirtiest build in my opinion is 2-base tech builds (frozen temple is very popular for this) getting used a lot more recently on KR, dunno how popular it is with europeans yet but basically it's just 4 queens, cancel ling speed or never even start it super fast lair + RW + evo walloff and the other guy has no idea if it's fast muta or fast roach speed and +1
^G1 Hydra does a 2-base tech build and Snute doesn't realise early enough and does an attack which only cancels a 3rd that isn't even being used
So sometimes the other guy with the faster 3rd looks to just try and overwhelm with roach-bane before mutas pop (generally gets rekt by roach focus) Or just defends and tries to feel out the situation and identify what he needs. Fast Lair in reaction to get the overseer scout is a must to play reactively vs this.
Any 2-base ling-bane aggression is really bad - might as well take a 3rd hatch with it and hit pretty much as hard. So that's not really a thing anymore outside of abusing players that skip/delay bane nest and very specific timings to abuse lack of vision on certain map spawns.
So in terms of strength of compositions at various points in the game:
Earlygame roach dominates
Midgame muta is untouched
Ultras are the endgame
Skip to 40:00 to see Dark's refined 3-base macro muta build. Note the safety roach warren to give him the option to pump roaches vs a roach-bane push.
There's a sick recent reaction to mutas which Dark showed a while back where you just skip hydras and go straight to hive using queen-spore to lock down 4-base and get 4 infestors out (skip pathogen cos you won't build any more) and 3 vipers and double melee ups getting ready for your ultras. So if the other guy masses mutas they're useless because maths.
If it doesn't take you to the right part of the VoD go to 45:00 for Dark showing this vs Curious in GSL.
Maths:
If ultras are 3 armour upgrades (and chitinous) ahead of mutas it takes 501 shots to kill one (If they all hit at the same time and regen only has time for 1 HP.
If mutas have +1 they take 251 shots to kill a maxxed ultra
If mutas have +2 attack 167 shots to kill maxxed ultra
So even if you have +3 mutas they take 126 shots to kill a maxxed ultra
not most ppl's piece of cake!
To elaborate on the low tech roach vs roach wars
Often one player will squeeze in a spire while they're both just deadlocked at roaches and if the other guys doesn't get his own spire or break through before he's normally pretty boned. The mutas just snipe off all the ravagers and force a huge amount of static whilst giving so much space and freedom. The player can tech up really high behind it, or more often just find aggressive openings and win the game quite suddenly. Some players like to add hydras there though, but they often struggle to afford enough hydras + spores because roach vs roach usually forces a lower economy game.
Let's also talk about cheesy stuff
It's almost always hidden now because if you go straight across the map with it ppl just pull off gas and defend gasless - they don't give the hatchery up anymore. They just pull drones build lings/queens/spines and the shitty 1-base production can't get through unless defending player shits the bed with their micro.
Soo does a sneaky 13/12 on the safest map in the pool.
On frozen temple (and other short maps) you might see 12 pool 13 gas SUPER allin build.
Basically rather than 13/12 (which optimises lingspeed + bane timing) it hits with the force of a 12 pool - fastest possible first lings attacking. But also fastest possible queen so the first inject hits at a much more effective timing, whilst having the lingspeed and banes kick in not too far behind.
In this last VoD we see Rogue drone-scout Soo who's been cheesing a LOT in Proleague. After seeing the hatch-gas-pool he reacts with his own super fast 3rd hatch BEFORE queens, similar to the very popular ZvP build. He uses the extra production and relentless aggression on the small map to close it out.
On May 10 2016 11:27 lichter wrote: i like watching ultra vs ultra it's like two blind herds of fat cows smashing into each other
Haha yeah, I'm actually wondering if having a few lurkers behind your literal meatshield is more efficient. Someone should hop into unit tester and see
nice writeup. this could almost be a guide. it perfectly captures the current meta and provides lots of examples with "maths" and vods.
im going to be very anal here and point out that u misspelled soO's name a couple of times. i only say this because i was confused the first time and thought u were saying "so" as part of a continuation of a sentence =P
On May 10 2016 15:28 Zeweig wrote: So all you have to do is to get 42 or more +3 mutas to one-hit ultras? This I can do.
I'm not sure why he's saying 42, actually from my test it seems it recquires a lot more than 42 hits to kill an ultra (unless the LotV unit tester isn't up to date).
Tested : 126 hits actually. 501 > 251 > 167 > 126 (assuming we take into account the regeneration of the zerg unit, and we didn't kill the ultra within the first 2-3 seconds).
TY so much, it was kind of the same thing i was thinking about, this would be much more needet for ZvP... gonna try out the 2 base Tech builds on ladder.
On May 10 2016 15:28 Zeweig wrote: So all you have to do is to get 42 or more +3 mutas to one-hit ultras? This I can do.
I'm not sure why he's saying 42, actually from my test it seems it recquires a lot more than 42 hits to kill an ultra (unless the LotV unit tester isn't up to date).
Tested : 126 hits actually. 501 > 251 > 167 > 126 (assuming we take into account the regeneration of the zerg unit, and we didn't kill the ultra within the first 2-3 seconds).
Thankyou for correcting me mate. And yeah zerg regen is actually INSTANT the moment they take damage so we should always calculate the HP of a unit with the extra 1 as you've done
On May 10 2016 16:49 sc2chronic wrote: nice writeup. this could almost be a guide. it perfectly captures the current meta and provides lots of examples with "maths" and vods.
im going to be very anal here and point out that u misspelled soO's name a couple of times. i only say this because i was confused the first time and thought u were saying "so" as part of a continuation of a sentence =P
Haha you'd think for a guy with stupid capitalisation in his own name I'd do a better job of remembering other players'... soO soO soO ok I think I got it
Also for the 2 base Tech build, i tryed it out and i figured out having a disadvantage against fast Spire builds, my Spire is earlyer but i am behind in drones
On May 11 2016 07:16 DERASTAT wrote: Also for the 2 base Tech build, i tryed it out and i figured out having a disadvantage against fast Spire builds, my Spire is earlyer but i am behind in drones
3-base muta? Yeah that's pretty strong vs it where they can secure 4-base on like dusk and steadily overtake on mutas. However on a map like invader where the bases are so spread the temporary muta lead can push you into a pretty decisive position by getting between their rallies.
Also 3-base muta is very weak on small aggressive maps like frozen temple, prion terraces etc. so that's why ppl like 2-base tech there: they don't have to worry about the macro muta play.
On May 10 2016 15:28 Zeweig wrote: So all you have to do is to get 42 or more +3 mutas to one-hit ultras? This I can do.
I'm not sure why he's saying 42, actually from my test it seems it recquires a lot more than 42 hits to kill an ultra (unless the LotV unit tester isn't up to date).
Tested : 126 hits actually. 501 > 251 > 167 > 126 (assuming we take into account the regeneration of the zerg unit, and we didn't kill the ultra within the first 2-3 seconds).
Thankyou for correcting me mate. And yeah zerg regen is actually INSTANT the moment they take damage so we should always calculate the HP of a unit with the extra 1 as you've done
I think the HP regens a tiny little bit ~20 times per second - the actual value is rounded up (so a regen of even 0.1hp will say 1hp)
Not sure exactly when the HP regen occurs vs attacking units when we're getting down to tiny details, for example you might be able to kill a hydralisk if you get 4 immortals in range and then right click it as they have no projectile and hit for 20*4 damage (vs 80hp). Need a unit tester for that one, marines have a similar attack as well that just blaps everything in range instantly and without overkill
On May 10 2016 19:26 PiGStarcraft wrote: Jesus that maths was bad just re-read my post and re-did it. It's correct now.
On May 10 2016 18:10 RaiZ wrote:
On May 10 2016 15:28 Zeweig wrote: So all you have to do is to get 42 or more +3 mutas to one-hit ultras? This I can do.
I'm not sure why he's saying 42, actually from my test it seems it recquires a lot more than 42 hits to kill an ultra (unless the LotV unit tester isn't up to date).
Tested : 126 hits actually. 501 > 251 > 167 > 126 (assuming we take into account the regeneration of the zerg unit, and we didn't kill the ultra within the first 2-3 seconds).
Thankyou for correcting me mate. And yeah zerg regen is actually INSTANT the moment they take damage so we should always calculate the HP of a unit with the extra 1 as you've done
I think the HP regens a tiny little bit ~20 times per second - the actual value is rounded up (so a regen of even 0.1hp will say 1hp)
Not sure exactly when the HP regen occurs vs attacking units when we're getting down to tiny details, for example you might be able to kill a hydralisk if you get 4 immortals in range and then right click it as they have no projectile and hit for 20*4 damage (vs 80hp). Need a unit tester for that one, marines have a similar attack as well that just blaps everything in range instantly and without overkill
Haha yeah until someone takes the time to go super detailed this'll have to do as our science for now
On May 10 2016 11:27 lichter wrote: i like watching ultra vs ultra it's like two blind herds of fat cows smashing into each other
Haha yeah, I'm actually wondering if having a few lurkers behind your literal meatshield is more efficient. Someone should hop into unit tester and see
Wouldn't it just be better to have a dozen hydras and focus behind the shield?
EPT
