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Calgary25977 Posts
Time for an update!
If you have no idea what this is, Coagulation and I have been making a card drinking game. You can read our FAQ here: http://mana.firecaster.com/faq/
We will soon be calling for beta testers to help us out. If you are interested, please sign up and put "teamliquid" in "how did you find us?" http://mana.firecaster.com/signup/ If you're not interested, you can also sign up for our mailing list to stay up to date with what we're up to.
Coagulation and I hit a second wind recently. He's been churning out new Ultimate art, lore art, instruction and box art, as well as updating all the existing artwork. The updated art looks really, really good.
Meanwhile, I've been wrestling with the struggle of the game being complex vs simple. The game is in best state its ever been in, but I believe some cards can be rewritten to have the same gameplay effects while having less text. For now, we set a goal of having no card text larger than this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/220AP2R.png) Arbitrary text limit. That divider and gradient will move up and down to fit the text.
Outside of that, I had to learn how to use Adobe InDesign, which was a fun experience. It's pretty intuitive and powerful for making books and text-heavy documents. I never even knew it existed before this project! I've been working to get a beta version of the instructions out that isn't a simple Word document. I would say they are around 90% complete, and will be a focus of the next month. Here's the cover so far:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pYwuflf.jpg) The work in progress cover.
Lore
I know people will say "It's a drinking game, why does it need lore?" And to a certain point, I agree. But I think it adds a lot more personality to the Heroes. It's fun to know who you are playing as and what's important to them. Also, it gives some background to what these cards are and why you're drinking. We plan to keep the lore completely out of the instructions, so people who aren't interested in the story can complete avoid it.
Here are the 12 Heroes' faces, which came out of the lore:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AcWsuZf.jpg) Some faces.
We decided to put the faces on the Hero cards themselves also, to add some more importance:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M9PIeQg.jpg) A card with a face!
And this map of the world of Mana Spirits took all my terrible Photoshop skills to make. Then Coagulation made it pretty:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Yw3hON.jpg) The map used throughout the lore.
Design
My wife and I made this box to test the size, and I think it turned out pretty well. It holds everything nicely.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YcRh7lu.jpg) Outside of the box.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NqWwXKK.jpg) Inside of the box.
We also finished replacing the tracking board. We used to have two boards in the middle where everyone tracked their life points. It was clunky, people knocked the tokens all the time, and people always had to ask which token represented which player. We replaced them with individual stands:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lej1X9q.jpg) The double sided Hero tracking stands.
You can see they are double sided so both you and your opponents can clearly see all your Hero's information. I'm not sure if these can be professionally produced yet... but we will find out!
Testing
I played two games last week. First, 1v1 against my wife. The pace of play was good, but there were too many cards on the table causing a lot of confusion. After this, I decided to completely cut a mechanic. We latest tested a 4-player game with 3 people who had never played before. Without the mechanic, the pace of play was good and everyone had positive reviews. The negative feedback came from not having a detailed turn order summary, which the beta instructions will solve. Things are looking good!
Art
As I said, Coagulation has been blasting out new art at a record pace. Here are some of my favourite updated Heroes:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yu9k85o.png) The work in progress on the Summoner (Hero version).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mTkvAyL.jpg) The Archangel (Hero version).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x1uWOvI.jpg) The Summoner (Ultimate version).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K7GUXdA.jpg) The Ranger (Hero version).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aijVTzk.jpg) The Rager (Ultimate version).
 
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Bisutopia19223 Posts
I got so excited just seeing the thread title! Everything looks great so far. Ill give more feedback as I look more. Great job chill.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On March 19 2015 13:12 BisuDagger wrote:
I got so excited just seeing the thread title! Everything looks great so far. Ill give more feedback as I look more. Great job chill.
Thanks  Though to be fair, 99.7% of the credit is Coagulation's.
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This is amazing.
Coag injected so much style.
Handsome looking box.
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
Is the art supposed to be a rip-off by design? I mean, the location names, the wizard art, the dragons on the last picture, dark elves, the angel...
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Looks so sick. It's been a long project and it looks like it's definitely gonna pay off
Any chance you will record a play session during beta?
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Signed up! Looking forward to play testing this with my group. They're always looking for another excuse to drink while gaming.
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Amazing, signed up for the beta. Good luck with everything!
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On March 19 2015 19:20 HornyHerring wrote:
Is the art supposed to be a rip-off by design? I mean, the location names, the wizard art, the dragons on the last picture, dark elves, the angel...
i was thinking that too, just some honest criticism
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Katowice25012 Posts
Looks awesome, keep giving us updates :D
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On March 19 2015 19:20 HornyHerring wrote:
Is the art supposed to be a rip-off by design? I mean, the location names, the wizard art, the dragons on the last picture, dark elves, the angel...
im not sure what your referencing in any of this other than some blizzard influenced names on the map and some pretty standard fantasy tropes..
baby dragons in the last picture are ... baby dragons...(game of thrones?).. im sure there have been baby dragons before so.. im ok with that. the elf is a standard elf as far as im aware but I wouldnt try to downplay the massive influence from metzen and samwise... angels are a rip off from the bible i guess. perhaps elaborate on this a bit cause i have no idea what to make of this or if anything actually needs changed....
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
On March 19 2015 23:44 Coagulation wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 19:20 HornyHerring wrote:
Is the art supposed to be a rip-off by design? I mean, the location names, the wizard art, the dragons on the last picture, dark elves, the angel... im not sure what your referencing in any of this other than some blizzard influenced names on the map and some pretty standard fantasy tropes.. baby dragons in the last picture are ... baby dragons..... im sure there have been baby dragons before so.. ok the elf is an elf... angels are a rip off from the bible i guess. perhaps elaborate on this a bit cause i have no idea what to make of this or if anything actually needs changed....
The wizard is dota antimage, locations on the map are hugely influenced by Game of Thrones, the angel is Imperius from D3, elves look like wc3 dark elves, especially the last picture, that's Tyrande with a recolored hair and recolored cat (well she is hugely overweight and out of proportion too), baby dragons are obviously from GoT - 3 of them, different colors... If you'd show us more pictures we'd find more references.
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Standard fantasy...
People can relate to this,
kinda like you did.
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On March 19 2015 23:56 HornyHerring wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:44 Coagulation wrote:On March 19 2015 19:20 HornyHerring wrote:
Is the art supposed to be a rip-off by design? I mean, the location names, the wizard art, the dragons on the last picture, dark elves, the angel... im not sure what your referencing in any of this other than some blizzard influenced names on the map and some pretty standard fantasy tropes.. baby dragons in the last picture are ... baby dragons..... im sure there have been baby dragons before so.. ok the elf is an elf... angels are a rip off from the bible i guess. perhaps elaborate on this a bit cause i have no idea what to make of this or if anything actually needs changed.... The wizard is dota antimage, locations on the map are hugely influenced by Game of Thrones, the angel is Imperius from D3, elves look like wc3 dark elves, especially the last picture, that's Tyrande with a recolored hair and recolored cat (well she is hugely overweight and out of proportion too), baby dragons are obviously from GoT - 3 of them, different colors... If you'd show us more pictures we'd find more references.
Im a huge asoiaf fan and I dont really see much going on map wise in that direction. I would consider it more warcraft oriented with the dark portal and the underground city etc but Its more of a nod to our favorite fantasy places than any kind of implementation to the game. The map is just a single pic for flavor and has no bearing on the game itself at this point.
I can see the diablo resemblance and the dark elves for sure but I dont think there is anything in them that ties directly to specific characters.
I never played dota or heard of an antimage but a quick google search says hes a purple wizard with a dark complexion. Its completely possible that I seen him somehow somewhere around here and subconsciously thought he was cool (im on a blizzard fan site afterall) but I doubt there would be much confusion considering its such a broad sweeping trope.
As for three dragons..
You cant do anything with dragons anymore that hasnt already been done a million times unless you give them nukes or make them fly space ships its probably done to death already so might as well try and go for what works.
For what its worth the original picture only had 1 dragon. I added the other 2 in later cause I thought it looked empty and chill said he didnt like it that way so some of the dragons will probably be removed. I dont know if he didnt like it cause of the asoiaf reference or not but I dont think it ever crossed my mind untill you mentioned it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L6smVJfl.jpg)
Anyway thanks for the quick feedback it is hugely appreciated when I get helpful spot on insights. Except the chubby ranger. I refuse to budge on that.
more pictures
http://mana.firecaster.com/media/
http://www.omgus.net/portal.php
heres a naga riding a shark.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yyb92rwl.jpg)
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That's badass haha
unless it's literally a straight lift complaining about similarities in such a trope filled genre is silly.
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That Rock Golem summoner is sexy as fuck!
The only critique I have is the cards' list; I feel it's distracting with all the spikes and skulls and defined black borders. The card art in contrast is softly drawn and makes it feel like it's secondary. Personally I'd experiment with a frame that's far less agressive in colour and form. Smooth straight and grey would allow for the list to act as a frame for the artwork and text. I feel it's currently intrusive in that it asks you to look at it when I think its job should be to help guide the eyes to the relevant stuff in the middle that helps one play the game.
I'd suppose to experiment with that Mol'Phyoz card, give it different frames and see what reads best.
Hope that helps, I'd love to play this game in the future.
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Looking better and better! Coag hero status! Chill relentless status! Do want much beta test.
Two points of feedback I feel strongly about:
The font for card text is not very attractive nor readable. I recommend something with serifs and possibly small capitals for lower case. Right now it doesn't seem to fit the game's feel or jive with the card design.
Also I agree with Saechiis that the card borders take away attention from the art (O injustice!). I get wanting to have prominent important info, but that might be better achieved with colorful icons / bold numbers on a more neutral and unobtrusive background frame. Like jewels set in a ring.
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Cool. The hero's face in the (1,2) spot reminds me of Knight Lautrec from Dark Souls.
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Calgary25977 Posts
All feedback is incredibly valuable to us so thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts.
I think Coagulation did a good job explaining the inspiration for his artwork. I guess ill just add that I simply look at his artwork and try to think of a name that fits it. Since we aren't professionals, we were likely heavily influenced by games and books we like, but im certain we did not intend to directly rip off anything existing assets. We were definitely going for a classic fantasy style, and to be frank, its hard to find anything that doesn't look like 10 things that were already done.
I agree on the font... there is a long story there. Right now the cards are procedurally generated by a custom program my friend wrote. Because of that we are limited to what we can do to the font. Its manually stretched but spaces are condensed. Beyond that, it likely isnt the right font to even start with. Recently ive learned to properly use InDesign and Photoshop so I will be adding the text manually now, which will open a lot of possibilities.
We have really struggled with the borders. The borders provide game information too - they aren't just for looks. The outer border tells you the value of the card (gold, silver) and the inner border and text gradient tells you how the card is used (its type). We both agree they do take away from the eyes focus but we dont want to look the game information they provide. Its on our "to review and fix" list.
Thanks for all the sign ups so far
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I am a little confused. You're not doing text in photoship, right? Because it can get a little funky when printing.
I definitely agree about the borders. I don't think they're bad, but distracting from the cool stuff Coag's done. More importantly, it's a drinking game, so you wanna make it crystal clear for the user. Like how online poker has the option to switch to those really bright options, it should be identifiable really easily
I'm a little confused by the inside border you mention though? on the mol'phyoz example, it's the red half on the bottom? Same thing with your mention about the text gradient. I do like the face on the card too
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Calgary25977 Posts
Text will be in InDesign not Photoshop. Ill explain about the borders with examples when Im home tonight. Its not too complicated but some pictures will help explain what I mean.
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Netherlands19133 Posts
Always get so excited when I see another update! Stuff still looks great and I'm looking forward to the next phase.
Care to elaborate which mechanic you pulled to smoothe out gameplay?
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Drinking game + all of that awesome art? Sign me up!
The drinking games I am used to playing are beer pong, fizzbuzz and kings, so this may be slightly too sophisticated for me. However, I also played M:TG in a long lost past, so presumably I'll manage :D
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Brazil4644 Posts
Woah, this is still happening? It started back when I was still active on TL :o
Coagulation art is monstrous! The only thing I think doesnt quite fit the theming is the title font, seems too "comic" compared to the rest of the art, but nonetheless, still damn impressive!!
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Calgary25977 Posts
On March 20 2015 09:01 fabiano wrote:
Woah, this is still happening? It started back when I was still active on TL :o
Coagulation art is monstrous! The only thing I think doesnt quite fit the theming is the title font, seems too "comic" compared to the rest of the art, but nonetheless, still damn impressive!!
That's a really good eye, because the font is from here haha http://www.blambot.com/
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Calgary25977 Posts
On March 20 2015 03:42 QuanticHawk wrote:
I am a little confused. You're not doing text in photoship, right? Because it can get a little funky when printing.
I definitely agree about the borders. I don't think they're bad, but distracting from the cool stuff Coag's done. More importantly, it's a drinking game, so you wanna make it crystal clear for the user. Like how online poker has the option to switch to those really bright options, it should be identifiable really easily
I'm a little confused by the inside border you mention though? on the mol'phyoz example, it's the red half on the bottom? Same thing with your mention about the text gradient. I do like the face on the card too
Bear with me: http://i.imgur.com/3VjisFe.jpg
Ignore the Heroes / Ults for now (look at the 4 cards on the middle / right). There are two classes of cards which sit in different decks. Basic cards are cheap (top), Legendary cards are expensive (bottom). Visually, they are distinguished by their outside border being either silver or gold.
Next, there are four types of cards, which determine how the cards are played and used. They are distinguished by the background of the text and the inner border colour.
The reason this is important is because if someone is sitting across the table, you want to visually know what kind of cards they have out, even if you can't necessarily see their stats.
Each player only has one two-sided Hero card, so the distinction between Hero and Ultimate is mostly visual to follow suit.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On March 20 2015 06:12 Nyovne wrote:
Always get so excited when I see another update! Stuff still looks great and I'm looking forward to the next phase.
Care to elaborate which mechanic you pulled to smoothe out gameplay?
We have a class of cards called "Events". Whenever a player levels up, they draw an Event card. Originally, the design of these cards were supposed to be global - random events that effect all players. To this day, I still like this idea. It's a global "problem" that draws everyone away from fighting each other and makes them solve the problem together temporarily, or all face the consequences. I tried for several months and couldn't get it implemented right.
So we replaced that idea with a card you draw and put into play for free. It was still random and sometimes had a global effect, but it was simpler and more direct. The problem is that the Events are way too complex and flood the board with too many cards.
I think I'm going to cut them from the game. They are an unnecessary complexity.
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Better to be simple first, you can make it complicated as you scale up with new cards and ideas
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Love the art work!! Really awesome! Keep up the good work 
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So how long can you drink and keep playing well? Is the game too complex to play when you're really drunk?
Do you have to be drinking when you're playing, ie. it's tied to the rules?
Do you have plans to create a computer version of the game so players can play over the internet, or does it not work because of the drinking aspect?
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Food for thought: Consider laminating the paper pieces. This is a drinking game.
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On March 21 2015 05:30 batsnacks wrote:
Food for thought: Consider laminating the paper pieces. This is a drinking game.
OR sell a $5 cleaning kit and $5 replacement insurance! XD
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Calgary25977 Posts
On March 21 2015 03:05 kingjames01 wrote:
So how long can you drink and keep playing well? Is the game too complex to play when you're really drunk?
Do you have to be drinking when you're playing, ie. it's tied to the rules?
Do you have plans to create a computer version of the game so players can play over the internet, or does it not work because of the drinking aspect?
Depends if you are a functional drunk or not. Can you play video games while drunk? If so, you'll be fine. I haven't seen anyone get so drunk they can't function.
Drinking is tied to the rules, but isn't a necessity. You can play without drinking. Check out the FAQ - there are answers to a lot of your questions: http://mana.firecaster.com/faq/
No plans to create a computer version right now.
On March 21 2015 05:30 batsnacks wrote:
Food for thought: Consider laminating the paper pieces. This is a drinking game.
Yea for sure, it's just for testing and proof of concept.
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I don't drink. I might start to play this game though. I promise chill, if you guys ever sell this, I'll buy a copy and host a drinking game night that I may or may not participate in and then give you guys the feedback.
Seriously guys: stunning work. I'm so excited for you. I remember the very first blog about this. Really really cool to see it coming along so well. Gl!
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Calgary25977 Posts
On March 21 2015 14:50 Kommatiazo wrote:
I don't drink. I might start to play this game though. I promise chill, if you guys ever sell this, I'll buy a copy and host a drinking game night that I may or may not participate in and then give you guys the feedback.
Seriously guys: stunning work. I'm so excited for you. I remember the very first blog about this. Really really cool to see it coming along so well. Gl!
Thanks for the encouragement!
My wife and her sister also don't drink and they've played a few times. I just want to be clear that there are no cards that only make you drink. Even the cards that are essentially "Opponent Drinks X" all have some other gameplay element to them. You won't miss any gameplay by not drinking.
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I think kingjames has a good idea about making this more accessibile online. Instead of making a computer "game" the fastest growing market online in terms of gaming are Apps for the iPhone or Android phones.
After you nail down the board game and things are looking successful, I would consider attempting making an App version that people could play either vs other players or like how Cards Against Humanity approached it.
Great work non the less. I'll sign up for a beta test, I have board game night with about 5-10 people once a month that always involves drinking. =) I got them to get into munchkin, I'm sure I could get them into this.
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Really does seem like alot of it is ripoffs of other work, like other posters have said.
Looks good though.
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Mol'Phyoz = Morpheus.
I've caught you in your plagiarism.
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I don't like the sabretooth's teeth.
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Norway28620 Posts
the artwork looks amazing! can't really comment on gameplay unless you grant me beta status
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On March 20 2015 10:59 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:42 QuanticHawk wrote:
I am a little confused. You're not doing text in photoship, right? Because it can get a little funky when printing.
I definitely agree about the borders. I don't think they're bad, but distracting from the cool stuff Coag's done. More importantly, it's a drinking game, so you wanna make it crystal clear for the user. Like how online poker has the option to switch to those really bright options, it should be identifiable really easily
I'm a little confused by the inside border you mention though? on the mol'phyoz example, it's the red half on the bottom? Same thing with your mention about the text gradient. I do like the face on the card too Bear with me: http://i.imgur.com/3VjisFe.jpgIgnore the Heroes / Ults for now (look at the 4 cards on the middle / right). There are two classes of cards which sit in different decks. Basic cards are cheap (top), Legendary cards are expensive (bottom). Visually, they are distinguished by their outside border being either silver or gold. Next, there are four types of cards, which determine how the cards are played and used. They are distinguished by the background of the text and the inner border colour. The reason this is important is because if someone is sitting across the table, you want to visually know what kind of cards they have out, even if you can't necessarily see their stats. Each player only has one two-sided Hero card, so the distinction between Hero and Ultimate is mostly visual to follow suit.
apologies for the delayed response!! v Ok that makes more sense. I thought at first that you meant there would be different fonts which signified something. The color scheming and everything definitely makes sense, and it pops, which is good for the exact reason you said. I still think the borders need to be more simple, both for that reason, and aesthetically it just distracts from the awesome art.
just reiterating again that this is an awesome project and I wish you guys the best of luck!
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I love how this side project has progressed over the years.
The artwork is stunning as well, great job guys.
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For everyone complaining about the "ripoffs" - what other character archetypes would you propose?
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On March 24 2015 23:02 pNRG wrote:
For everyone complaining about the "ripoffs" - what other character archetypes would you propose?
Cat girls are always good.
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On March 21 2015 23:24 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I think kingjames has a good idea about making this more accessibile online. Instead of making a computer "game" the fastest growing market online in terms of gaming are Apps for the iPhone or Android phones.
After you nail down the board game and things are looking successful, I would consider attempting making an App version that people could play either vs other players or like how Cards Against Humanity approached it.
Great work non the less. I'll sign up for a beta test, I have board game night with about 5-10 people once a month that always involves drinking. =) I got them to get into munchkin, I'm sure I could get them into this.
Interesting idea as all the artwork appears to be digital at this point. It seems to be built for an app environment.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Appreciate the feedback. Just want to address a few things.
I guess the white tiger is the night elf's mount in WoW? I couldn't find any particular Hero / character this is tied to and I've never played WoW myself. I don't see this as an issue, nor a ripoff. Our Ranger Hero, Quill, gains an extra Mana per turn, letting her take more actions, hence the mount. You'd have to ask Coagulation why he chose a tiger, but we both liked it.
Again, I've never played WoW and came up with names for these cards based on what they did. The Dark Portal isn't tied to the lore at all so the name could easily be changed if it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Looking quickly, it seems to be a single quest in WoW, so I'm not too concerned.
The goal of this game has always been to achieve the complexity of an "introductory" game, such as Settles of Catan, Dominion, etc. Any of those games take 15-20 minutes to quickly explain the rules, just like Mana Spirits. Just like in the first time you play those games, even though you understand the rules, it will still take a game or two before you fully feel you get it. We are not trying to be convoluted, but we do want meaningful decision making in our gameplay. We are not aiming to be a pick up and go drinking game like Kings or Beer Pong. Drinking is part of the rules and the experience, but it's not necessarily the core purpose of the game. The rules are on par or simpler than 1st edition M:tG.
An hour has always been the target. Modern introductory games typically fall around this time frame as well.
If you have any other questions or criticism, please post them. Or feel free to read the FAQ: http://mana.firecaster.com/faq/
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Norway28620 Posts
I've never played WoW but dark portal does immediately make me think of warcraft universe - because of the War2 expansion pack.
but then "dark portal" should be such a common fantasy term that it can't belong to a single universe and a dark portal is gonna look either like a dark portal or like a portal leading to darkness so whatever, it's not a name but an item of a particular color.. I don't think plagiary is really a thing in fantasy lore designing unless you start naming your orcs Thrall, wizards MiThRanDir or you introduce corrupted rings of invisibility.
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Well, having a night elf stand before a dark portal is pretty warcrafty. But who really cares?
Oh, and being simpler than 1st edition MTG is a requirement for anything unless you are specifically aiming at the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. If you aim at a general public it has to be around Settlers of Catan levels of complicated... and if drinking is any part of the game, core purpose or not, that is probably what you should aim for, because even the 1% of the 1% of the 1% isn´t going to make much sense of MTG-level rules while shitfaced. Hell, fizzbuzz gets hard after a few beers, and things go downhill from there.
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thanks for the feedback guys. we decided to try out some other concepts for the ranger and see if we could come up with something better.
this is what we are probably going with.
+ Show Spoiler +
heres some more hero art
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/arFOvPh.png) the paladin ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tv7AZYB.png) the shadow king
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IzlzjFc.jpg)
