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Hello again.
I value freedom of speech above anything else in a free society. The moment you step down from criticizing someone because 'it may offend them' (but I fear that here it is: 'they may hurt us') you're giving away pieces of freedom.
I will still propose the same thing to every defender of radical islam: let us open two websites and make them known to the public via television, newspaper, etc.. I will post jokes and drawings on Hinduism, Christianity and whatever religion you want. You will do the same but about Islam. Would you accept this?
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On January 08 2015 02:23 SoSexy wrote:
Hello again.
I value freedom of speech above anything else in a free society. The moment you step down from criticizing someone because 'it may offend them' (but I fear that here it is: 'they may hurt us') you're giving away pieces of freedom.
I will still propose the same thing to every defender of radical islam: let us open two websites and make them known to the public via television, newspaper, etc.. I will post jokes and drawings on Hinduism, Christianity and whatever religion you want. You will do the same but about Islam. Would you accept this?
I am confused about what you are saying. Are you asking me personally, or are you asking a typical "defender of radical islam"?
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On January 08 2015 02:28 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 02:23 SoSexy wrote:
Hello again.
I value freedom of speech above anything else in a free society. The moment you step down from criticizing someone because 'it may offend them' (but I fear that here it is: 'they may hurt us') you're giving away pieces of freedom.
I will still propose the same thing to every defender of radical islam: let us open two websites and make them known to the public via television, newspaper, etc.. I will post jokes and drawings on Hinduism, Christianity and whatever religion you want. You will do the same but about Islam. Would you accept this? I am confused about what you are saying. Are you asking me personally, or are you asking a typical "defender of radical islam"?
Not personally, it was a general question 
I'll also give a TL;DR for other people: burning the quran and/or the bible is stupid but killing in reaction to it does not justify it AT ALL.
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I think the Prophet Muhammad was just not very photogenic so he made it a rule that nobody could paint a portrait of him because he was very self-conscious about himself. So when people post pictures of him, isn't that essentially bullying? What if someone posted pictures of you without your permission because all you did was start a major world religion? What then?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 08 2015 02:32 ninazerg wrote:
I think the Prophet Muhammad was just not very photogenic so he made it a rule that nobody could paint a portrait of him because he was very self-conscious about himself. So when people post pictures of him, isn't that essentially bullying? What if someone posted pictures of you without your permission because all you did was start a major world religion? What then?
when teenagers got their selfies plastered over the internet coz snapchat, we all called "wtfcyberbullying guys"
i think if Muhammad doesn't want his face on things, we should respect his wishes
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So firstly, I have to appreciate that I never knew the story about the Christian-offensive material being rejected, that really does frame the Jyllands-Posten as big hypocrites. However, I don't really think that this should be just about judging someone. Actually, this is a general principle that I would like people to remember more often - that the errors of actors in one case should not be weighted too heavily in judging their other actions (best case example you may ever ask for: the Arab-Israeli conflict, where almost everyone now justifies wrongdoing by "but they did all of those terrible things before"). So let's just study the other points of the article.
In your text, you repeatedly call upon a premise that I found not only incompatible with my moral system, but even mildly disturbing: that one is obligated to evaluate outcomes of his actions and only do what does more good than bad. That is an extremely anti-individualistic stance, don't you feel? I fully understand that the society cannot function without limits on an individual's behaviour, so that one does not run around freely physically hurting others and disturbing any of the essential mechanisms of the society (such as property) - and I accept these rules as mutually beneficial for me and the society, but other than that, I just do not accept that I owe anyone my service in improving the general well-being of the world or any particular person - and even more importantly, I don't see how anyone has the right to tell me otherwise.
Even more disagreeable for me are your gentle attempts to portray the wrongdoing of the reacting Muslims as fault of Jyllands-Posten. If people were hurt, if bad feelings have spun, if relations froze, if violence broke out, I blame all of that solely on those who took part in these actions, not the publishers of a couple of images. There is no way on Earth you can convince me that committing physical violence is anyhow an acceptable response to a drawing.
This issue is actually very similar to seemingly very different problems of regulation of things that have "bad social impact", such as drugs, alcohol, gambling machines etc... There is a variety of things that are regulated or banned and this regulation is often supported by the argument that they increase the occurrence of crime and thus we are better off without them. Well, maybe we are, but isn't the crime itself already banned (kind of tautologically, as the bannedness is what implicates that something is a crime)? I am very worried by this gradual chopping off of our freedoms under the banner of preventing things from happening that we already do not allow. And the logic of not doing something so that people do not conduct violent attacks is no different.
I must admit that my chances of coming on top in this debate are slim to non, as your mastery of the pen is far behind mine, so please don't take this as a full-blown rebuttal (I myself am not very happy with the way some of the points sound, but I am simply not able to convey my thoughts better in English), just as a hint of other possible points of view.
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It´s violent people seeking a way to justify their violence. If it wasn´t for "their belief" I´m sure the radicals would find other ways to impose themselves on others. I believe, as long as religious feelings are something of a holy cow that cannot be challenged, there will be no progress in this discourse. Adults have to take responsiblity and cannot go berserk emotionally for something so ridiculously abstract. Granted, people have gone crazy for lots of stupid things for thousands of years, but it doesn´t make it right. Sure, it´s more diplomatic to appease, but I think another approach is needed, one that looks more at the people and less at the fairy-tales they claim to believe and utilize for all kinds of shit.
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Cascadia1753 Posts
Catering to these populations by censoring ourselves is morally wrong from all perspectives.The only morally right thing to do is fight censorship, oppression, and violence. Appeasing those who promote the former is complete moral failure.
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On January 08 2015 02:51 opisska wrote:
In your text, you repeatedly call upon a premise that I found not only incompatible with my moral system, but even mildly disturbing: that one is obligated to evaluate outcomes of his actions and only do what does more good than bad. That is an extremely anti-individualistic stance, don't you feel? I fully understand that the society cannot function without limits on an individual's behaviour, so that one does not run around freely physically hurting others and disturbing any of the essential mechanisms of the society (such as property) - and I accept these rules as mutually beneficial for me and the society, but other than that, I just do not accept that I owe anyone my service in improving the general well-being of the world or any particular person - and even more importantly, I don't see how anyone has the right to tell me otherwise.
Well that's fine but the topic of my paper was whether or not their actions were morally right, and I don't think that "doing what you want" much falls under the category of "morally right". It's all relative, I mean "right" is just an opinion, but I think people will generally agree that actions that cause more harm overall are less "right" than others.
Even more disagreeable for me are your gentle attempts to portray the wrongdoing of the reacting Muslims as fault of Jyllands-Posten. If people were hurt, if bad feelings have spun, if relations froze, if violence broke out, I blame all of that solely on those who took part in these actions, not the publishers of a couple of images. There is no way on Earth you can convince me that committing physical violence is anyhow an acceptable response to a drawing.
I never said anything of the sort, and nor do I believe it is the case. My paper is not a criticism of muslims, that is not it's purpose. I stayed true to the purpose of my paper: discussion of impact of the actions of Jyllands-Posten. Whether or not you think various parties made mistakes doesn't change that one thing leads to another.
This issue is actually very similar to seemingly very different problems of regulation of things that have "bad social impact", such as drugs, alcohol, gambling machines etc... There is a variety of things that are regulated or banned and this regulation is often supported by the argument that they increase the occurrence of crime and thus we are better off without them. Well, maybe we are, but isn't the crime itself already banned (kind of tautologically, as the bannedness is what implicates that something is a crime)? I am very worried by this gradual chopping off of our freedoms under the banner of preventing things from happening that we already do not allow. And the logic of not doing something so that people do not conduct violent attacks is no different.
I don't really disagree with you, I just think that it is very complicated. To be honest, for my paper - I had to choose a stance on way or another. And I could have written more, and I do think that counterarguments are strong. I chose the side I chose because I thought the arguments for that side were just a little stronger.
Thank you for reading the paper btw
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Was the act moral as far as utilitarianism goes is hard to say and that is what actual discussion could be had about. Short term utility was probably negative, but long term utility can easily outweigh any of that. The text never even delved into long term outcomes of such actions. Considering that utilitarian consensus is probably impossible at this time, we need to use some other ethical system that approximates utilitarianism to judge morality of such action. Rule-based ethical systems in place in western countries state quite clearly that the action of the newspapers was neutral .
The whole problem is caused by clash of two cultures. One morally inferior and one superior. Whether the superior one should compromise its rules for short term utility gain to placate the inferior one is the question. The answer currently can be probably only subjective. And in that case I think we might as well go with our current rights where free speech is not limited by offensiveness. Also the whole argument also seems like victim-blaming.
Also respect is earned and not automatic. And respect is granted to individual people, not ideologies (especially not immoral ones such as religions).
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On January 08 2015 03:26 Tephus wrote:
Catering to these populations by censoring ourselves is morally wrong from all perspectives.The only morally right thing to do is fight censorship, oppression, and violence. Appeasing those who promote the former is complete moral failure.
It is not that simple. There is the whole "screaming-fire-in-full-theater" thing, and there is "hate-speech" that can easily be argued to be harmful and thus immoral.
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On January 08 2015 03:28 mcc wrote:
Was the act moral as far as utilitarianism goes is hard to say and that is what actual discussion could be had about. Short term utility was probably negative, but long term utility can easily outweigh any of that. The text never even delved into long term outcomes of such actions. Considering that utilitarian consensus is probably impossible at this time, we need to use some other ethical system that approximates utilitarianism to judge morality of such action. Rule-based ethical systems in place in western countries state quite clearly that the action of the newspapers was neutral .
The whole problem is caused by clash of two cultures. One morally inferior and one superior. Whether the superior one should compromise its rules for short term utility gain to placate the inferior one is the question. The answer currently can be probably only subjective. And in that case I think we might as well go with our current rights where free speech is not limited by offensiveness. Also the whole argument also seems like victim-blaming.
Extremely well put imo, though I would strongly argue against long term utility that could not have been gained otherwise in more... peaceful ways.
Also respect is earned and not automatic. And respect is granted to individual people, not ideologies (especially not immoral ones such as religions).
That's not the world we actually live in, it sounds like a more ideal one where the average person is a little more enlightened than they are here. In this world, most individuals identify theirselves largely upon what groups they are part of. That's how they see their selves.
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I don't think that I have really conveyed well what I really want to say - and nobody else did, so I will try to do that again, but probably tomorrow. I would be interested to hear responses, but first I really need to formulate the point so that it gets across, sorry.
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Cascadia1753 Posts
On January 08 2015 03:33 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 03:26 Tephus wrote:
Catering to these populations by censoring ourselves is morally wrong from all perspectives.The only morally right thing to do is fight censorship, oppression, and violence. Appeasing those who promote the former is complete moral failure. It is not that simple. There is the whole "screaming-fire-in-full-theater" thing, and there is "hate-speech" that can easily be argued to be harmful and thus immoral.
Depends on your definition of hate speech. If a population can label anything offensive as hate speech, then we've lost. If it's limited to conspiracy to commit violence (or another crime), then its redundant.
Screaming fire in a theatre is an awful example. In any organized setting, at most this will cause temporary inconvenience to the people in the theatre. If you consider it metaphorically, then censoring those shouting fire is a massive restriction on free speech. And there is always the issue of who decides. Once someone can decide what is free speech and what isn't, you've by definition lost free speech.
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On January 08 2015 03:34 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 03:28 mcc wrote:
Was the act moral as far as utilitarianism goes is hard to say and that is what actual discussion could be had about. Short term utility was probably negative, but long term utility can easily outweigh any of that. The text never even delved into long term outcomes of such actions. Considering that utilitarian consensus is probably impossible at this time, we need to use some other ethical system that approximates utilitarianism to judge morality of such action. Rule-based ethical systems in place in western countries state quite clearly that the action of the newspapers was neutral .
The whole problem is caused by clash of two cultures. One morally inferior and one superior. Whether the superior one should compromise its rules for short term utility gain to placate the inferior one is the question. The answer currently can be probably only subjective. And in that case I think we might as well go with our current rights where free speech is not limited by offensiveness. Also the whole argument also seems like victim-blaming. Extremely well put imo, though I would strongly argue against long term utility that could not have been gained otherwise in more... peaceful ways.
Well, I am on the fence on this as I really do not see strong enough arguments either way and since free-speech as it currently is served us reasonably well I prefer the status quo. Problem with "peaceful" (both ways are peaceful from the western side) ways is possibility of causing harm by creating these bubbles where crimes are ignored for fear of offending (wasn't there recently good example of it in Britain ?), prolonging the whole process (and it will be violent to some degree no matter which way we go) by not being strict enough in promoting western values.
On January 08 2015 03:34 travis wrote:Show nested quote +
Also respect is earned and not automatic. And respect is granted to individual people, not ideologies (especially not immoral ones such as religions).
That's not the world we actually live in, it sounds like a more ideal one where the average person is a little more enlightened than they are here. In this world, most individuals identify theirselves largely upon what groups they are part of. That's how they see their selves.
My statement was normative, not descriptive  I know that people tie their identities and self-respect to things other than themselves. I was just saying that I find the "respect" concept extremely overrated as compared to actual actions. Respect is too closely tied with honor, and honor-based cultures and honor-based behaviours are actually root of all evil (slightly exaggerating).
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On January 08 2015 02:51 opisska wrote:
I must admit that my chances of coming on top in this debate are slim to non, as your mastery of the pen is far behind mine, so please don't take this as a full-blown rebuttal (I myself am not very happy with the way some of the points sound, but I am simply not able to convey my thoughts better in English), just as a hint of other possible points of view.
Just want to say that you express yourself far better than most native English speakers.
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On January 08 2015 03:55 Glowsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 02:51 opisska wrote:
I must admit that my chances of coming on top in this debate are slim to non, as your mastery of the pen is far behind mine, so please don't take this as a full-blown rebuttal (I myself am not very happy with the way some of the points sound, but I am simply not able to convey my thoughts better in English), just as a hint of other possible points of view.
Just want to say that you express yourself far better than most native English speakers.
I didn't even look at his country. I agree with you. What's with these czech republic people and their awesome english?
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On January 08 2015 03:46 Tephus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 03:33 mcc wrote:On January 08 2015 03:26 Tephus wrote:
Catering to these populations by censoring ourselves is morally wrong from all perspectives.The only morally right thing to do is fight censorship, oppression, and violence. Appeasing those who promote the former is complete moral failure. It is not that simple. There is the whole "screaming-fire-in-full-theater" thing, and there is "hate-speech" that can easily be argued to be harmful and thus immoral. Depends on your definition of hate speech. If a population can label anything offensive as hate speech, then we've lost. If it's limited to conspiracy to commit violence (or another crime), then its redundant. Screaming fire in a theatre is an awful example. In any organized setting, at most this will cause temporary inconvenience to the people in the theatre. If you consider it metaphorically, then censoring those shouting fire is a massive restriction on free speech. And there is always the issue of who decides. Once someone can decide what is free speech and what isn't, you've by definition lost free speech.
As for hate speech, I agree that it can get out of hand, but so can nearly everything beneficial in society. But you can limit it reasonably. For example I see absolutely no problem with banning even very widely defined hate-speech in schools and other special purpose places. Whereas in normal settings I personally am for complete freedom of speech (on the issue of hate speech), but I see the point of limiting some of it as some countries do. It is hard to judge.
Panic in crowded places is not mere inconvenience. It caused quite a lot of death and suffering in history. And it is nearly no restriction on free speech. What positive purpose can such a speech serve ? Free speech is not self-serving principle. It is good if it causes good, it is bad if it causes suffering. Screaming fire in crowded places (if there is no fire) is in all practical scenarios bad. So no reason to not ban it purely ethically speaking. Sometimes it is more important to keep rules simple than to prevent some bad things, but this is not the case. Free speech rules remain simple and natural enough even after you ban panic inducing speech.
As for who decides, society decides as in all things. Specific laws might be crafted by specialists, but they always have to stand some kind of test of society's approval. Our society is better now than 200 years ago, not because we introduced free speech, but because society changed so that the free speech principle could have been introduced (there is of course feedback loop) and the whole thing is more continuous than discrete, but the general direction is the way I described.
In practice who decides is a judge as free speech is vague enough to require judges to actually weight different competing principles and decide as is their job.
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On January 08 2015 03:58 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 03:55 Glowsphere wrote:On January 08 2015 02:51 opisska wrote:
I must admit that my chances of coming on top in this debate are slim to non, as your mastery of the pen is far behind mine, so please don't take this as a full-blown rebuttal (I myself am not very happy with the way some of the points sound, but I am simply not able to convey my thoughts better in English), just as a hint of other possible points of view.
Just want to say that you express yourself far better than most native English speakers. I didn't even look at his country. I agree with you. What's with these czech republic people and their awesome english?
Thanks to computers and being too small a country for one language to be enough your whole life But compared to Iceland and the proliferation of English there we have nothing
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EPT
