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Blizzard, consider this a petition to leave Swarm Hosts as is for Legacy of the Void.
That means don't remove them. Don't nerf them into obsolescence. And don't give Protoss or Terran a new unit or ability that serves as a hard counter.
People have complained about how short battles are in SC2. Swarm Hosts make them longer. People have complained about simple it is to control a Protoss Army. Swarm Hosts make it more more complicated. People have complained about death balls. Swarm Hosts force players to get out on the map, and attack in multiple places.
Watching Snute defeat Hero & Life defeat First at IEM Toronto has reinforced my opinion on Swarmhosts. The ebb & flow is fascinating. The locusts come. The vipers threaten. The High templar posture, ready to feedback. The locusts press forward. The High Templar fall back. The Vipers press forward. Back & forth. Back & forth. Banks blow up. The game becomes about resources, expansion positioning, and harassment. Mass warp ins. Drops. Creep control.
And it's not just in ZVP! Snute's games against Flash showed me that wonderful games can be created with Swarm Hosts in ZVT as well.
Yes, Swarm Hosts are strong. In the future, some tweak to them might be optimal. But the principle behind them is sound.
I'm a Protoss player, and I love Swarm Hosts!
  
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your Country52797 Posts
I also like swarm hosts. But I think that there should be some way to tweak them to make the games less than 1 hour each when there is maybe 15-20 minutes of actual action.
Preferably, the expected length of any matchup with two safe, macro strategies against each other should be about the same. Swarmhosts break this pattern (pretty much the only thing I dislike about them)
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I keep hearing about this user named Blizzard, but I've never seen him post on the forums.
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On August 31 2014 08:26 ninazerg wrote:
I keep hearing about this user named Blizzard, but I've never seen him post on the forums.
Well yeah, he's a lurker.
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I do enjoy swarmhost v P games when the toss decides to walk around with a collossus high templar ball while mass harassing with warp ins. Zerg going swarmhosts allows toss to be more active on the map.
I would not like to see a removal of the swarmhost, but I definitely agree that tweaks could be made to improve the unit further!
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Swarm hosts are ok, they don't need a nerf so far. The games hero vs snute showed only that snute had more experience and patience than hero in those situations.
They need actual skill to be used, weaker zerg players would lose everything to warp prism harass /warp ins, Snute proved to be able to defend pretty well, but the protoss player also needs to be good at harassing.
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It'd be better if the mothership couldn't be abducted
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But if the mothership couldn't be abducted, then the lategame would be massively favored for Protoss. If Zerg can't abduct the mothership, what can they do?
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On August 31 2014 09:43 Salivanth wrote:
But if the mothership couldn't be abducted, then the lategame would be massively favored for Protoss. If Zerg can't abduct the mothership, what can they do?
I agree. If the mothership was always present, then swarm hosts would be completely useless, unless the protoss player miscontrols it and lets a part of his army outside the cloak range.
When the mothership is abducted the protoss player is forced to step back and then the zerg player has the opportunity to push forward. Instead, when the mothership is present the protoss player is free to chain revelation on the zerg army and static defenses and slowly kill them with the tempests.
I'd say right now lategame PvZ in HotS is yet to be fully explored, but so far it looks surprisingly balanced. Also, without the swarm host there would be nothing to stop the tempest/archon/ht composition.
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Canada11355 Posts
I'll sign. I don't even use the swarm host that often but it adds something zerg was certainly lacking in WoL.
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I think Blizzard can do better. Swarmhost was almost what they needed for Zerg but not quite. My big "fix" idea for SC2 is to fix the pathing to be more like BroodWar, these huge big deathballs walking around and stutter stepping up ramps when its controlled by 3 tanks is what makes the game crappy - you cannot control space. The good thing about swarmhosts is that they sort of artificially give back that feeling of space control. Making the maps more hexagonal and units move differently would fix a lot more. But, Blizzard will certainly not do that.
I have to vote
+ Show Spoiler [Nope] +
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A unit that gives effortless value, isn't exciting to watch, not zergy and excruciating to play against. Blizzard should be able to come up with more of a sound and interesting unit.
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i like your handle but i dont like what you are saying
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On August 31 2014 07:49 -_- wrote:
Watching Snute defeat Hero & Life defeat First at IEM Toronto has reinforced my opinion on Swarmhosts.
Watching Snute defeat herO was the absolute most boring series I've ever watched because of swarmhosts, and I remember watching hour-long TvTs back in the day...
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swarmhost style is like turtling mech, some like it, some don't.
I don't mind it but I wish there are more late game composition that doesn't rely on this heavy swarmhost style.
Still, they can lead to incredibly fun games, it is fun to see protoss doing drops and harassment, being the more mobile one.
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Game 1 of Snute vs herO is probably my all-time favorite ZvP, and that's usually my least-favorite matchup.
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On August 31 2014 20:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2014 07:49 -_- wrote:
Watching Snute defeat Hero & Life defeat First at IEM Toronto has reinforced my opinion on Swarmhosts.
Watching Snute defeat herO was the absolute most boring series I've ever watched because of swarmhosts, and I remember watching hour-long TvTs back in the day...
Some people thought it was really good, others (like me) thought it was painful to watch. I want to know how people would feel if it was Soulkey versus Naniwa and it was a foreigner that had to fight the endless waves of locusts.
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SH's are a great unit, the problem is that P deathball is so good e effective that Z can only defeat it by destroying it bit by bit (not the PRIME GUY  ..
Oh and not abduting mothership is KO's for Z also..
SH's can become boring sometimes but most of the games are full of small skirmishes, harrass and great dodging and army movement!
I like it allot and use SH's in about 30/40% of my ZvP
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I am not a high level player, but from what I have seen, the free units are the whole point of the Swarm Host. Nerfing their HP or attack might make sense if they need to be nerfed, but requiring you to order the creation of the attackers or making the attackers cost mana seems stupid and fundamentally opposed to the whole point of the unit. Nerf their HP, their mana, their range, whatever it takes, but don't screw up the free units feature, because that's the whole point of the Swarm Host.
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Swarm Hosts were meant to break up turtle play, it does the opposite in most cases. It hasn't fulfilled its role, I think it's fine to remove it. I can't see superficial stat changes fixing much, being able to whittle away from a distance is just terrible.
I think Blizzard can do better. Swarmhost was almost what they needed for Zerg but not quite. My big "fix" idea for SC2 is to fix the pathing to be more like BroodWar, these huge big deathballs walking around and stutter stepping up ramps when its controlled by 3 tanks is what makes the game crappy - you cannot control space. The good thing about swarmhosts is that they sort of artificially give back that feeling of space control. Making the maps more hexagonal and units move differently would fix a lot more. But, Blizzard will certainly not do that.
BW pathing and mining/worker movement would be on my LotV wishlist. But sadly I just don't see it happening.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luyq738NsZ1qj9uf7o1_500.gif)
