EPTTI4 Prizepool & the nature of Competition - Page 3
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Jutranjo
Slovenia140 Posts
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bluzi
4703 Posts
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AwfuL_
Netherlands6976 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:43 Jutranjo wrote: Even if you give every team 1% of the prize pool that barely changes the top 4 prizes but makes it so that they atleast aren't losing money by going to TI. They're already not losing money because Valve pays their travel costs and hotels, catering etc. However I agree with your point in general. The prizepool is so stupidly big this year, that investing all of that money in the few top teams just seems ridiculous to me. The kids (okay, probably young adults) that get first place are basically going to be millionairs whether Valve throws the players that weren't as succesfull a bone or not. It would mean so much more for the losing teams than it would diminish the winning team's euphoria. I want to see either prizes for all the teams or participation fees or i'm not buying a Compendium. Yes, I know Valve's not gonna care  The only valid argument against paying all teams that I've read in this topic is that it puts Valve in the difficult position of essentially deciding what teams they give money to when they decide on the invited teams. | ||
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calh
537 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:54 bluzi wrote: Valve does this for the owe factor -> "LOOK AT THE TOP PRIZE MONEY!!! LOOK HOW MUCH MONEY" Agreed, and I think it makes sense if you just want exposure. Frankly most people who don't already follows the competitive scene also don't care about the overall prizepool, nor how fair it is. In fact I have never seen any mention of prizepool anywhere outside of esports, so IMO for many it has very little meaning. They will be impressed that the winner gets 3 million, not that all the teams together get 6 million. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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ShootAnonymous
1948 Posts
On May 22 2014 02:29 Nolfster wrote: So all the wins and achievements MUFC had prior to TI, which earned them an invite spot were nothing? MUFC were amply rewarded for their respective wins in the non-TI tournaments with winnings from said tournaments; it's not for nothing. I don't see the NEED for prize money to be distributed all the way down to the 16th place =/ Teams should be able to survive outside of TI money, just like MUFC has. Personally I see TI as something akin for a yearly Olympics, except in place of gold medals it's whatever the top prize happens to be that year. Extremely big, but more than the gold medal(prize money) it's the exposure and prestige of participating in the Olympics(TI) which then lead to sponsorship deals and long(er)-term sustainability. Which can be seen every year - when a team without prior sponsorhip manages to qualify for TI they almost immediately start receiving offers and are picked up. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 22 2014 02:21 Unleashing wrote: I don't want to just give money to teams that clearly didn't deserve to be there *cough* MUFC *cough* I think paying teams for wins would be sensible so all teams get a bonus of the prizepool for their wins in the group-stages. I just can not agree with giving money to teams that show up and lose fucking everything, because said team clearly didn't deserve to be in the money any more than let's say the play-in teams. I mean if we want to pay the teams for working hard and making it to seattle then surely we should pay the play-in teams too, right? They need to spend time practicing and so on just as much as the team that makes it trough the play-in and becomes one of the 16 teams. (No i don't actually think play-in teams that don't make it should be paid, i think teams should be rewarded for playing well at TI) If we paid teams for getting wins in the group stages this rewards teams that play well and actually create entertainment for the viewers, and punishes teams that clearly weren't supposed to be at the event at all. I mean let's say we had a team in the scene that was all legacy and hadn't actually performed at all leading up to TI, and they were giving a direct invite simply because of said legacy. If they show up and lose everything, they definitely wouldn't be deserving of any money just for being there. That would be insulting to teams in the play-in that might've put up a much more serious fight in the tournament but just barely got eliminated. TI shouldn't be there to allow a player to be competitive, it shouldn't be what the scenes revolves around. It shouldn't be there to make sure all the teams can remain competitive, because that would mean we have a scene that can't survive without TI which would be super fucking bad for the scene as a whole. That's some of the most absurd and backward logic there is. Simply put if a team is good enough to make it trough the qualifiers, then they deserve to be at the tournament and thus deserve to be payed for it. They have earned the money by qualifying. I agree with what you are saying in that the higher the place the more they should earn, but there should always be a minimum of entry point prize money. Also, your argument about a team losing all games at a tournament making them undeserving of receiving prize money is absurd as well. The skill difference between teams that get invites and go trough qualifiers, the experience in tournaments, the team cohesion, how they handle pressure are all huge factors. It could be that a team that made it trough the quals just didn't have any live tournament experience and they bombed out, that doesn't mean they don't deserve any money at all, they, again, earned it by getting there in the first place. Every serious sport out there rewards qualifying for the tournament as well. The only reason why it isn't being done in eSports yet is that the prize pools just weren't there yet. However with the TI4 we have a huge precedent where the prize pool is so massive that it could do a great deal of good for the scene and help stabilize, legitimize and grow it further. Just like the OP said, you'll never fully mature the scene nor the game if we cling to the antiquated, barbaric and predatory mentality that only the top teams deserve to earn money. | ||
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Jutranjo
Slovenia140 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:04 AwfuL_ wrote: They're already not losing money because Valve pays their travel costs and hotels, catering etc. I'm not sure all the players at TI are fully sponsored. At least some of them have a side job, even Akke has a programming job. It's not just travel expenses, if they're not getting any money they'd earn more by just not going. | ||
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TheRubicon
United States1342 Posts
edit: to the post above mine, i highly doubt that. exposure is definately worth the time, its like saying no to a pro* bowl invite because you are going to write some code lines or do a workout routine in your room. (insert nfl CMON MAN moment) | ||
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Exoteric
Australia2330 Posts
On May 22 2014 22:37 TheRubicon wrote: I agree with Nazgul, keep it the same. Theres a saying in my planet-, "(if)He dies, he dies." Good luck to all teams edit: to the post above mine, i highly doubt that. exposure is definately worth the time, its like saying no to a pro* bowl invite because you are going to write some code lines or do a workout routine in your room. (insert nfl CMON MAN moment) Did you read his post properly? He does not have an issue with Valve giving out some prize money to those who place 9-16 due to the nature of how teams qualify for the tournament in the first place. | ||
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TheRubicon
United States1342 Posts
On May 22 2014 23:00 Exoteric wrote: Did you read his post properly? He does not have an issue with Valve giving out some prize money to those who place 9-16 due to the nature of how teams qualify for the tournament in the first place. alright whatever, i havent slept so i may have misread. if thats the case, disregard my first sentence | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
I don't have a precise idea to how things should go but my point is that instead of having many random tournaments we could have tournaments actually meaning something more often and would lead to TI. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Jutranjo
Slovenia140 Posts
On May 23 2014 03:19 nojok wrote: It would be good if valve could just fade away and let other tournaments get all the hype. Even if we removed valve's input, the prize pool would be huge. However we can't expect everybody to throw some bucks to support some tourneys like this everytime as given the saturation no other tourney is able to stand out. One way to solve this could be some ESWC like system : the main organiser (valve here) would give the authority to organise qualifiers to other organisations. It could be starladder TI qualifiers, ACE TI qualifiers or whatever. This would allow to get real qualifiers with proper rewards for qualifying at TI and therefore it would not be a big deal to get a top heavy prize pool. Or maybe a WCS point system, I don't know. I don't have a precise idea to how things should go but my point is that instead of having many random tournaments we could have tournaments actually meaning something more often and would lead to TI. Pretty bad idea, they're not telling anyone what the plan is for TI at all. They rarely say anything or take any kind of formal input. That's kinda bad for a big tournament organizer. | ||
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Churrass
573 Posts
On May 22 2014 01:56 Sn0_Man wrote: Definitely agree that every invited team at the international played their asses off to earn an invite and deserve to be there. Na'Vi are probably the closest to a pure "invite" this year. the team with most tourney wins between TI3 and TI4 is a pure invite ? interesting, would like to see what do you think about newbee | ||
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phantasmal
276 Posts
If you don't want to watch the video, the most important takeaway is this: when you give someone a complicated task and you tie their reward to success, the larger you make the reward the poorer the average performance. Now I'm not saying that this larger prize pool is going to lead to the collapse of Alliance, Na`Vi and DK, but only because those teams already have it made. Barring a series of complete disasters extending well beyond TI4, they're going to keep their sponsorships for quite some time. They can focus entirely, or at least as close to it as is possible, on improving their game for the event. And good for them. The problem then is that there will be bubble teams, serious competitors to the top echelons, for whom their continued existence is dependent achieving tournament placements, both to gain/maintain sponsor interest and also to simply gain access to any prize money. If you don't get winnings, maybe you have to convert your part-time job into a full-time job to keep up with rent. So with this hanging over your head, every tiny mistake your teammates make gets exaggerated in performance because they could add up to you not being able to make practices and having your entire competitive career collapse. As the video says, "The best use of money as a motivator is to pay people enough to take the issue of money off the table." With tier 2 teams getting some form of payment simply for showing up, they can concentrate on playing the game simply for the sake of playing. Their mean performance will improve, and some of them will become serious competitors to the top teams that you would not have otherwise. If you want to make Alliance, Na`Vi, and DK really step up their game, the best way isn't to make the top 3 payments ridiculously higher; it's to encourage the development of their competition to the point where they face a real threat of getting knocked out of the top 3. The China Qualifiers are currently going on, and we had a small scandal where the "hopeless" teams intentionally threw games. People complain about a lack of "professionalism," but what level of professionalism are you entitled to if you're not willing to pay the "professionals" a single cent. Some people suggested cash incentives for winning, which is a step in the right direction, but it still runs afoul of the issue that those kind of incentives lead to poor performance. Instead, just pay a basic salary just for showing up. If you're willing to pay $100 per win, just pay teams $50 per game played. Then, if teams violate tournament rules by throwing games, have a fine structure in place to claw back some of this salary depending on the severity of the violation. Show up and perform to the best of your ability and you get $90 per person. Goof around and you can lose all of it. Humans are notoriously loss averse, so this payout structure makes sense on both ends. Of course this isn't a specific recommendation, because every tournament is dealing with a different reality when it comes to talent level, prize money available, and legal implications of the region hosting the tournament. But in general, if you want to improve the overall competitive level of the scene a flatter prize structure at all levels will be tremendously more effective than clinging to winner-take-all structures. This is in all likelihood significantly more important at levels of tournament play below The International, but the International should take this opportunity to lead by good example and ensure everyone who played their ass off all year to make it here is guaranteed to go home with something to show for it. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The whole point of a tournament with a prize pool is that you are rewarded JUST for how you play in the tournament. Take the NFL. Denver had the best record, but Seattle won the Super Bowl. Does that mean we need to give part of the super bowl prize pool to the players who didnt participate in the final games? Not to mention the direct invites pose a SERIOUS problem. At the end of the day, Valve picks a bunch of teams based on a series of criteria WE DONT EVEN KNOW. What about when Valve revokes a spot because of a roster change? Does that team still deserve a subsidy for being invited in the first place? Look. I get that this is a lot of money, and people want to help out the professional scene. But if you want to donate to your favorite players, there are ways to do that. But this is a tournament, not a charity event. Why should the winner of TI4 be screwed over and not get 50% like Alliance did just because there is more money? The point of expanding the prize pool through the compendium is that 50% becomes HIGHER, and so forth. Hell, the second place team this year will probably make more money than Alliance did last year for winning, even without reducing the prize split. I have no problem with making it a flatter payout curve. But if you are going to do that, it needs to be among teams that make it to the knockout rounds and have ACTUALLY EARNED A POSITION IN THIS TOURNAMENT. Just making the group stages isnt enough (see MUFC). It makes no sense to award competition prizes simply because "oh it seems fair." | ||
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